i really dont think they should mess with Veng stacking if a team works together to get it off but i am all for nerfing the "loading into a match with 7 stacked"
[ QUOTE ]
i really dont think they should mess with Veng stacking if a team works together to get it off but i am all for nerfing the "loading into a match with 7 stacked"
[/ QUOTE ]
Alas, there's the coding prob. You really can't have one without the other. For the devs it'd be far simpler to fix stacking outright.
I haven't heard of it being stacked like that for PvP though... VERY damned sad, I thought you'd only need 1 veng to turn the tide.
[ QUOTE ]
Would it be possible to flag Vengeance as Interruptable (meaning it can't be set on auto) and set the Interrupt time to zero?That wouldn't solve the issue of a well coordinated team double (or more) stacking it in PvP, but it might be worth looking at.
[/ QUOTE ]
Or put a timer on it so there can only be one vegence cast on it. Set the timer for the amount of time it takes the body to decay. The most a team of 8 could stack is 4 that way...but the time involved in stacking 4 wouldn't bee worth it...plus the dead people wouldn't benefit from the buff.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Get rid of the "I Win" buttons of Shivans and Warburg bombs and then you don't have to design missions with their use in mind.
[/ QUOTE ]
And the notion that they designed the RSF with either or both in mind is an assumption. Perhaps an obvious one, but one we've never seen validated.
And the fact that people do complete it without them reinforce the notion that they might not have considered them a critical component.
[/ QUOTE ]
Considering that Shivans and Warburg bombs were in place prior to the LRSF, it would have been a gross oversight on their part NOT to have considered them.
Again, the only people completing it without them are using the same stock team makeup that has led to the recent nerfing of Rad. It won't be too long before granite falls in the same hole.
Then what are we left with? The "necessity" of shivans and bombs. Which is as disgusting as the "necessity" of stoners and kins.
We keep hearing about BaB's statements that we aren't doing the new Hami raid as they designed.
I find it funny that ample use of bombs and shivans haven't been tried out.
...
It's a philosophy thing. I disagree completely with the overuse of farmable temp powers, god-mode powers and ESPECIALLY the balance of a powerset based on the tier9s.
From that same philosophy comes my disgust at the entire concept of you "need" X to accomplish Y.
A group of Smart players with the "worst" powersets from each AT should be able to complete the LRSF. If they can't do it without the use of shivans, nukes, rads, kins and a stone tank, then the entire event's design is broken.
Be well, people of CoH.
[ QUOTE ]
A group of Smart players with the "worst" powersets from each AT should be able to complete the LRSF. If they can't do it without the use of shivans, nukes, rads, kins and a stone tank, then the entire event's design is broken.
[/ QUOTE ]
Quoted for the [censored] Truth.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i really dont think they should mess with Veng stacking if a team works together to get it off but i am all for nerfing the "loading into a match with 7 stacked"
[/ QUOTE ]
Alas, there's the coding prob. You really can't have one without the other. For the devs it'd be far simpler to fix stacking outright.
I haven't heard of it being stacked like that for PvP though... VERY damned sad, I thought you'd only need 1 veng to turn the tide.
[/ QUOTE ]
I imagine a relatively quick coding solution would be to have everyone be resed/get the full power recharge a few seconds earlier in the countdown than they're allowed to start moving and casting things.
The interruptible solution sounds like it could be a good quick fix as well.
Coding that it can't stack all together sounds like it'll be tough, but I have faith in Castle.
Vengeance stacking breaks the game. It sends numbers through the roof. It causes the balance of the game to go completely out of whack. Stacking Vengeance is HORRIBLE for organized PvP as it creates matches that are neither fun to watch or participate in.
One team spends months and months practicing, only to see themselves get beat 80-9 by a team equally talented, just they happened to stack 4 Vengeances. Quite honestly, this is the worst exploit in the game right now and I pray the developers get on this right away.
Right now, wins in the Arena = who got stacked Vengeance off...has very little to do with actually what the Arena was designed to measure.
[ QUOTE ]
If you've got some heavy -recharge on you, and the only thing you've got left is sands of mu, and that helps you survive, should that be nerfed? what about the nem staff, baseball bats, flamethrowers, or any other temp power that anyone has earned in the game?
[/ QUOTE ]
Go back and read the part where I said farmable. I'll add to that. The Vet Powers are balanced around permanent use. The shivans and bombs weren't BUT ARE BEING USED AS SUCH.
See the difference?
Be well, people of CoH.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is all in prep for reworking the LRSF so that it becomes more in line with the difficulty of the STF, right?
[/ QUOTE ]
Seeing as how it's pretty common to defeat the LRSF without either Shivans or stacked Vengeance, I'm not sure I see the relevance.
[/ QUOTE ]
sorry not everyone can find 5 corruptors, 2 masterminds, and a stone brute to do the LRSF with
also stalkers and dominators want to be useful on it too.
[/ QUOTE ]
Its player propogated myth that causes this, because alot of people want you to believe its the case. Ive been on RSFs that are led by invuls and elecs, and ive seen doms not only be useful, but LEAD rsfs.
The problem is the player base saying wanting the easy way out. Thru Vengeance and Shivans and 7 corrs and what have you. None of these are remotely necessary.
[/ QUOTE ]
its not the whole "easy way out thing" the first four missions are just basic regular missions with regular ways to complete them.
NOW then the last mission has 8 +3 heroes standing around ready to kill anything that moves because you threw a corpse at them.
Leading a LRSF is one thing since all you have to do is go and get the other people you need, and give the pitty spot to yourself. Heck you are out of your mind if you think when a LRSF starts up the team leader goes out of their way to find an invuln brute or an ice dominator or a claws stalker.
when my VG would do the LRSF every time we basically grabbed whatever toons we wanted to do it with, and got shivans, and nukes. Most of us would have vengence, and with those things we could finish it with different and unusual team members instead of desperately seeking stone brutes and certain types of corruptors.
I'm curious what it is the triggers the respawn at the start of the match....does the dead player respawn at the end of the timer, or does it just look that way because the 10 second timer is the same as the 10 second auto-rez time?
If that's the case, extending the countdown to 20 or 30 seconds could be a potential solution, as was as a nice fix for slow loaders.
[ QUOTE ]
Vengeance stacking breaks the game. It sends numbers through the roof. It causes the balance of the game to go completely out of whack. Stacking Vengeance is HORRIBLE for organized PvP as it creates matches that are neither fun to watch or participate in.
One team spends months and months practicing, only to see themselves get beat 80-9 by a team equally talented, just they happened to stack 4 Vengeances. Quite honestly, this is the worst exploit in the game right now and I pray the developers get on this right away.
Right now, wins in the Arena = who got stacked Vengeance off...has very little to do with actually what the Arena was designed to measure.
[/ QUOTE ]
Really how come NDX, can come from behind to roll another team after they use stacked Vengeance on them at the beginning. How come Ive seen I believe Freaks vs HVND third match gather for a vengance, HVND get off a nuke and turn the tide in their favor taking match three. Ive seen matches where both teams play the Vengance game and one team still wins big, just cause JAL cant overcome it, dont put other groups on their level. Ive also seen aim plus cage hit through multiple Vengeances, Ive seen people get spiked hard with multiple Vengeance going. Also 4 stacked Vengeance off isnt the easiest thing to do when in the high-end pvp game, most people are in different directions, so your going overboard there two maybe three tops and that might only hit one or two people. JAL was losing big before Vengeance and they will probably be losing big after it gets changed, sry to be brutally honest sometimes you need to crack a few eggs to make an omelette though and saying Vengeance is the root of all PvP woes is just funny.
[ QUOTE ]
i really dont think they should mess with Veng stacking if a team works together to get it off but i am all for nerfing the "loading into a match with 7 stacked"
[/ QUOTE ]
The problem is that one "gather" can completely eliminate any semblance of a fair, challenging match.
Ok..gathering for Vengeance takes some skill. But, really, how much skill are we talking about? lol...Is it comparable to after the gather every blaster on their team can go rogue and take down targets in 2 attacks with no need for debuffs??
Is it comparable to after stacking 4-5 Vengeances all the practice your team has put in can mean zero? Basically, teams need only to worry about practicing to gather for Vengeance effectively, stack 5 Vengeances, and every person on their team goes rogue with no coordination whatsoever.
Stacking Vengeance is no different than targeting macros. How difficult is it to gather on a dead body? lol Some of you guys act as if gathering for Vengeance is some type of art form only a few can master. ANY team can master this very quickly and suddenly find themselves beating teams that have been practicing together for months, or even years. Just like targeting macros turned zeroes into heroes.
The minimal effort, skill, and risk involved gathering for Vengeance no where near matches the reward involved. Personally, I don't like matches being decided on exploits and minimal skills.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you've got some heavy -recharge on you, and the only thing you've got left is sands of mu, and that helps you survive, should that be nerfed? what about the nem staff, baseball bats, flamethrowers, or any other temp power that anyone has earned in the game?
[/ QUOTE ]
Go back and read the part where I said farmable. I'll add to that. The Vet Powers are balanced around permanent use. The shivans and bombs weren't BUT ARE BEING USED AS SUCH.
See the difference?
[/ QUOTE ]
So then would you suggest to make them all one-time use? What would that do to the people who are in a TF and are having a really difficult time with some AV? (take Lanaru, for instance) With shivys and nukes, that team that spent X number of hours (5-7 or more, depending on how well they did) would be able to actually finish the thing, instead of spending half the day and end up frustrated?
Or, what about the people who enjoy to solo and who come across an evil EB? with shivs and nukes, those people can overcome the EB and continue on their merry way?
so, my question is, are you calling for complete removal, or one-time use?
@Death Conqueror
-Goal for 2011: Survive, stay alive, and continue to thrive.
You really rant alot psy 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Vengeance stacking breaks the game. It sends numbers through the roof. It causes the balance of the game to go completely out of whack. Stacking Vengeance is HORRIBLE for organized PvP as it creates matches that are neither fun to watch or participate in.
One team spends months and months practicing, only to see themselves get beat 80-9 by a team equally talented, just they happened to stack 4 Vengeances. Quite honestly, this is the worst exploit in the game right now and I pray the developers get on this right away.
Right now, wins in the Arena = who got stacked Vengeance off...has very little to do with actually what the Arena was designed to measure.
[/ QUOTE ]
Really how come NDX, can come from behind to roll another team after they use stacked Vengeance on them at the beginning. How come Ive seen I believe Freaks vs HVND third match gather for a vengance, HVND get off a nuke and turn the tide in their favor taking match three. Ive seen matches where both teams play the Vengance game and one team still wins big, just cause JAL cant overcome it, dont put other groups on their level. Ive also seen aim plus cage hit through multiple Vengeances, Ive seen people get spiked hard with multiple Vengeance going. Also 4 stacked Vengeance off isnt the easiest thing to do when in the high-end pvp game, most people are in different directions, so your going overboard there two maybe three tops and that might only hit one or two people. JAL was losing big before Vengeance and they will probably be losing big after it gets changed, sry to be brutally honest sometimes you need to crack a few eggs to make an omelette though and saying Vengeance is the root of all PvP woes is just funny.
[/ QUOTE ]
We beat Lion's Den before this Vengeance stacking was known about. So, go stick it. Number two, your logic is utterly flawed.
Stacking Vengeance is easy...if you don't think so, then you're not very good at PvP - which to be honest, you AREN'T very good at PvP, so that explains it. You want the exploit because that is how you are successful.
[ QUOTE ]
so, my question is, are you calling for complete removal, or one-time use?
[/ QUOTE ]
What's wrong with merely reducing their effectiveness to make sure players don't abuse them/need them as much? Don't take things as black and white.
Ad hominem stacking ftl.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
so, my question is, are you calling for complete removal, or one-time use?
[/ QUOTE ]
What's wrong with merely reducing their effectiveness to make sure players don't abuse them/need them as much? Don't take things as black and white.
[/ QUOTE ]
in what way were you thinking of reducing their effectiveness? bring them down from EB to boss level? LT level? Would that fit in with the idea of risk vs. reward? just curious, really. what's your take?
@Death Conqueror
-Goal for 2011: Survive, stay alive, and continue to thrive.
Coming in i-9, vengeance with a 30 minute recharge time.
PvP, son
It'll root you for 40 seconds too.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Vengeance stacking breaks the game. It sends numbers through the roof. It causes the balance of the game to go completely out of whack. Stacking Vengeance is HORRIBLE for organized PvP as it creates matches that are neither fun to watch or participate in.
One team spends months and months practicing, only to see themselves get beat 80-9 by a team equally talented, just they happened to stack 4 Vengeances. Quite honestly, this is the worst exploit in the game right now and I pray the developers get on this right away.
Right now, wins in the Arena = who got stacked Vengeance off...has very little to do with actually what the Arena was designed to measure.
[/ QUOTE ]
Really how come NDX, can come from behind to roll another team after they use stacked Vengeance on them at the beginning. How come Ive seen I believe Freaks vs HVND third match gather for a vengance, HVND get off a nuke and turn the tide in their favor taking match three. Ive seen matches where both teams play the Vengance game and one team still wins big, just cause JAL cant overcome it, dont put other groups on their level. Ive also seen aim plus cage hit through multiple Vengeances, Ive seen people get spiked hard with multiple Vengeance going. Also 4 stacked Vengeance off isnt the easiest thing to do when in the high-end pvp game, most people are in different directions, so your going overboard there two maybe three tops and that might only hit one or two people. JAL was losing big before Vengeance and they will probably be losing big after it gets changed, sry to be brutally honest sometimes you need to crack a few eggs to make an omelette though and saying Vengeance is the root of all PvP woes is just funny.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hey dick head,
We beat Lion's Den before this Vengeance stacking was known about. So, go stick it. Number two, your logic is utterly flawed, keep working on that high school diploma or G.E.D. because you're not very intelligent.
Stacking Vengeance is easy...if you don't think so, then you're not very good at PvP - which to be honest, you AREN'T very good at PvP, so that explains it. You want the exploit because that is how you are successful...now stop embarassing yourself because your posts are pretty pathetic and indicative of someone who is slow or has a learning disability.
[/ QUOTE ]
You havent answered any of my questions? All you have done is bring yourself down to schoolyard mentality and insult those with a learning disability everywhere by comparing them to me. You barely beat LD when they had scrappers and no kins, face it your no more than someone who holds Rift's coat tails over in WoW. Half your sg left before a big match and your PvP ladder was a complete failure. I come at you with facts you come at me with anger and bias. So Plz as Ed Wreck would say CRY.SOME.MORE! Oh and its Mr. Dick Head to you
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
so, my question is, are you calling for complete removal, or one-time use?
[/ QUOTE ]
What's wrong with merely reducing their effectiveness to make sure players don't abuse them/need them as much? Don't take things as black and white.
[/ QUOTE ]
in what way were you thinking of reducing their effectiveness? bring them down from EB to boss level? LT level? Would that fit in with the idea of risk vs. reward? just curious, really. what's your take?
[/ QUOTE ]
That or reducing the numbers on their attacks/debuffs. Maybe lower the time a Shivan is out. Not that difficult to get a Shivan (I practically solo them anyhow), and nukes... Hell, that speaks for itself.
It's not all just "z0mg you mentioned Shivan reduction, you're trying to remove them". There are other ways around it.
[ QUOTE ]
Coming in i-9, vengeance with a 30 minute recharge time.
PvP, son
[/ QUOTE ]
[censored] was that? lol
I love how stacking Vengeance is "so" hard, yet every build has Vengeance in it and every team is able to get off 3-4 Vengeances every gather in every match, lol.
Hey, I admit right now that we also stack Vengeance. Sometimes we're the winners, sometimes we're the losers. However, in just about every situation I can trace the turning point of the match to who got off the stacked Vengeance and the match falls apart. Personally, I would like to get back to matches that relied solely on a team's coordination on targets and the fundamentals...not who looks out and gets a big Vengeance stack and then completely dominates no matter team skill level.
[ QUOTE ]
Considering that Shivans and Warburg bombs were in place prior to the LRSF, it would have been a gross oversight on their part NOT to have considered them.
[/ QUOTE ]
You mean like the 1000% AV regen increase? Like the test showing Scrappers one-shotting +8 mobs?
I'm not still especially down on the devs over those things, but the AV one was relatively recent. It's not like gross oversight has somehow been rare.
[ QUOTE ]
Again, the only people completing it without them are using the same stock team makeup that has led to the recent nerfing of Rad. It won't be too long before granite falls in the same hole.
[/ QUOTE ]
Dude, come on. The rad nerf only significantly affects -regen. REGEN DEBUFFS ARE NOT NECCESSARY AT ALL TO DEFEAT THESE AVS. I'm sorry for shouting that, but I am sick of people propagating that myth. When you have a team of six to eight you simply don't need it, period. -DR is vastly more effective, and Rad, while a well-known provider of that, is far from the only one.
Let me repeat this again: you do not need -regen for the RSF/STF.
[ QUOTE ]
We keep hearing about BaB's statements that we aren't doing the new Hami raid as they designed.
I find it funny that ample use of bombs and shivans haven't been tried out.
[/ QUOTE ]
Because he flat out said that gimiicks weren't the way.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is all in prep for reworking the LRSF so that it becomes more in line with the difficulty of the STF, right?
[/ QUOTE ]
Seeing as how it's pretty common to defeat the LRSF without either Shivans or stacked Vengeance, I'm not sure I see the relevance.
[/ QUOTE ]
sorry not everyone can find 5 corruptors, 2 masterminds, and a stone brute to do the LRSF with
also stalkers and dominators want to be useful on it too.
[/ QUOTE ]
Its player propogated myth that causes this, because alot of people want you to believe its the case. Ive been on RSFs that are led by invuls and elecs, and ive seen doms not only be useful, but LEAD rsfs successfully.
The problem is the player base wanting the easy way out and not embracing any sort of challenge... Thru Vengeance and Shivans and 7 corrs and what have you. None of these are remotely necessary.
Edit: I didnt even realize the forum this was in, and am laughing at how off target posts can get from the original intent. (Thats what I get or getting here from the Dev Digest)