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Well, aside from what Castle came along and said, I think it would be pretty weird if they thought PA dropping was a gimmick but a Braveheart charge of Shivans wasn't.
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By the way they have fixed PA dropping versus Hami . . .
Take that for what you will.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Well, aside from what Castle came along and said, I think it would be pretty weird if they thought PA dropping was a gimmick but a Braveheart charge of Shivans wasn't.
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By the way they have fixed PA dropping versus Hami . . .
Take that for what you will.
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Yeah, I know that.
And BaB said the tactics for the new one shouldn't rely heavily around any one power or AT.
Thus reinforcing my notion that the new Hami raid wasn't balanced around the expectation everyone would bring a Shivan.
Interestingly, I don't think it would do anything really if they did. I think the mitos would own them hardcore as they wandered around being knocked on their behinds.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I have heard that its best served cold. Just sayin.
This is a VERY VERY important issue. Not Vengeance per se, but in the levels of difficulty that the Devs are allowed to design into the game.
Over and over, players want content that 'any PuG can have a reasonable chance to defeat'.
They also want 'truly challenging content that is worth the bragging rights and not a boring grind'.
One way of doing this is to have content that is truly challenging, but also have some 'kryptonite' for it in the game: in this case, Nukes and Shivans. A PuG can do this with Nukes and Shivans, or by stacking Vengeance...can you do it without?
But then these tactics developed for extreme situations become the easy fix for every bump of difficulty in the game. See a Brute? Nukes and Shivans! Why not, it isn't like you don't go farm for Nukes and Shivans first thing after logging on anyway...
This cripples our future content. If it's tough to do with Nukes and Shivans, it's impossible without. If it's tough without, it's easy with.
This is further complicated by the fact that the Nukes and Shivans are in PvP zones. If more people PvP'd, the Nukes and Shivans would be as tough to get as they are 'supposed' to be.
You could take the Nukes and Shivans out....but not until after new replacement content is designed.
It's an interesting puzzle. How tough should tough be?
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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Bill... you know Babbage isn't an AV, right?
I said AVs. Not GMs. AVs and GMs are not the same.
The LRSF has AVs in the end. Not GMs.
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They're both meatbags with massive hitpoints and regen.
But I'm done. Kitsune9tails said what I meant better than I did.
Be well, people of CoH.
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They're both meatbags with massive hitpoints and regen.
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That's fine, but you were using an example of Babbage to reinforce your point: that Regen is critical to taking down AVs.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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This cripples our future content. If it's tough to do with Nukes and Shivans, it's impossible without. If it's tough without, it's easy with.
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Adding to this puzzle is somthing I think is important. And something I think a lot of people overlook.
Shivans aren't on our tray by default. Clearly there's an open question about whether they're hard enough to get, or related factors like how many per run, or how strong per Shivan. But we never have to go get them. It's a choice.
I could trivialize the game regularly with Shivans. I don't. I get them for really hard fights that I either can't win without them or that take so long I don't want to do it without the help.
In other words, I use them for what they're presumably meant for. I don't skate through the rest of the game with them, because there's no point. That's not fun for me.
Do I need to be protected from myself? Made so I can't bore myself by intentionally making the game too easy in that way? I'd rather have the option, honestly, to clear those damn hard fights, or clear them faster.
Should so many of our missions have AVs in them even when we're solo? Should even some EBs be as tough as they are? How do you account for differences in powersets? In ATs? In the powers of the EBs themselves and how they counter some powersets? Some EBs are a joke to one character and a bane to another. A fun fight often lurks somewhere in between.
Are Shivans, Nukes, or what have you "balanced"? I'm not going to argue that they are. But do I think they serve a purpose that they serve well, and removing them or severely neutering them would be a bad move.
Should we have a tool to push us over those challenge humps? I think we should. How do we make it so you can only have that tool when you really need it? I have no idea. And so I am reluctant to advocate removing it.
I have no complaint about the change to Vengeance, except for one that's old news. It's the only buff in the game that's (supposed to be) non stackable. I hope the change to make this one power non-stackable isn't something that will become a balance trend. I tend to doubt it will, but I am still wary.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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VTron21,
In a perfect game I wouldn't be against it. But that's not here. Here it breeds a mentality. A mentality that if you don't come with X, you're not welcome.
Not a granite brute? No thanks. Not a rad? You're out. Stalkers and Doms? Sorry, our PITY SPOTS (think about that VERY carefully) are full. What? You don't have shivans? Damnit, everybody head to BB.
Is EVERYONE out there like this? Nope. But when you listen to broadcast, that's what you hear.
So your new players that need those temp powers are the same ones being pushed OUT of content because of those temp powers.
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QFT. *Cheers Billz on*
"Hi, my name is Ail. I make people sick."
A partial selection from my 50's on Freedom: Ail = Ice/Traps, Luck = Street Justice/Super Reflexes Stalker, Mist = Bane, Pixy = Trick Arrow/Archery, Pure = Gravity/Energy, Smoke = Fire/Fire Dominator
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If you've got some heavy -recharge on you, and the only thing you've got left is sands of mu, and that helps you survive, should that be nerfed? what about the nem staff, baseball bats, flamethrowers, or any other temp power that anyone has earned in the game?
[/ QUOTE ]
Go back and read the part where I said farmable. I'll add to that. The Vet Powers are balanced around permanent use. The shivans and bombs weren't BUT ARE BEING USED AS SUCH.
See the difference?
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So then would you suggest to make them all one-time use? What would that do to the people who are in a TF and are having a really difficult time with some AV? (take Lanaru, for instance) With shivys and nukes, that team that spent X number of hours (5-7 or more, depending on how well they did) would be able to actually finish the thing, instead of spending half the day and end up frustrated?
Or, what about the people who enjoy to solo and who come across an evil EB? with shivs and nukes, those people can overcome the EB and continue on their merry way?
so, my question is, are you calling for complete removal, or one-time use?
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Lanaruu was able to be defeated before shivans and nukes. We also have base teleporters and inspirations storage.
Soloing and EBs? Again, that's what Insps are for.
I am calling for the complete removal of shivans and warburg bombs. And Only shivans are warburg bombs. If not that, then nerf them to values equal to their now perma-use status.
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Hooray! I agree.
As an alternative, make them available for use from one, non-repeatable, mission. Then when you use them they are gone.
Come on guys! Do you really want to start to see high end content balanced around them? Do you really want this game to become another FFXI where you have to farm for hours before doing actual content?
"Hi, my name is Ail. I make people sick."
A partial selection from my 50's on Freedom: Ail = Ice/Traps, Luck = Street Justice/Super Reflexes Stalker, Mist = Bane, Pixy = Trick Arrow/Archery, Pure = Gravity/Energy, Smoke = Fire/Fire Dominator
<QR>
Alaestor: "Shopping list - pick up more Shivans"
(Man, this thread has so derailed since this morning)
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farm for hours before doing actual content
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Actually, I think one of the arguments is that you don't have to farm for hours - that these powers are easier to get than intended.
That's okay. We're just talking about the veng issue in all the other threads. 
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For the PvE folks reading this, no, Vengeance is not meant to stack in PvE, either and the change, when it happens, will apply in those encounters as well.
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A note on this point. In PVE, heroes don't NEED to stack vengeance, not with power boost/power build up. The +dam is probably the least interesting aspect of the power, especially if there's a kin on the team. The +def and +tohit, though, are absolutely ridiculous -- CoD lists PBU at 149% buff. That's like being able to double-stack veng all on your own. (And I say this as someone who constantly veng + pbus, and loves doing it.)
Villains don't get power boost or power build up, so single-stacked veng is just nice.
If stacked veng is 'too good', maybe PB'd veng is too?
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[...] performance in this game has many dimensions of measurement, but not everyone values every axis equally.
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Well said.
This post brought to you by the Thunderfire Campaign to Out-Weird the Internet.
Score so far: Thunderfire-0, Internet-157893678
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For the PvE folks reading this, no, Vengeance is not meant to stack in PvE, either and the change, when it happens, will apply in those encounters as well.
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By this I hope you mean when the NPCs use it as well.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
My VG does a run quite regularly. The only requirements we have are a stone brute and 2 kins. We don't use shivans or nukes.
We do have a lot of corrupters in our group but we've done it with a couple stalkers and a dom on the team.
And yes, we are always sucessful. It usually takes us 2-2.5 hours to finish, but we do finish.
Proud member of the LEGION, and Sisterhood
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They're both meatbags with massive hitpoints and regen.
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That's fine, but you were using an example of Babbage to reinforce your point. That Regen is critical to taking down AVs.
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Plus, does Babbage actually contain any meat?
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Comment on the thread in general:
Watch the language and the personal attack folks.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks!
Lighthouse
Community Relations Manager
If you have a specific in game, account, tech or billing problem please contact our Customer Support team via The Knowledge Base "Ask A Question" page.
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Comment on the thread in general:
Watch the language and the personal attack folks.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks!
[/ QUOTE ]
What about the soloers who need shivans in order to complete certain missions. Most of my characters are MMs. One of the ATs a lot of people don't want on their team. I've no problem with that, I solo at a leisurely pace. However, there are missions, (and I'm set no higher than middle difficulty and very often on lowest difficulty), where I get to the end and find an end mob I can't take down without a shivan. I don't go up against AVs solo, but some EBs might as well be AVs to me.
I don't use shivans often, I don't farm them to make all of my missions easier, but if I was faced with never having them ever again, I wouldn't be a happy camper. I don't think I'd be alone either.
If you don't like shivans or nukes don't use them. If you think they shouldn't be usable on the SFs, fight for that. But don't go calling for the total removal of them just because you don't like them, because we both know they aren't going to change missions at this late date to compensate for the loss of shivans.
Why should I be penalized if I drop my mission difficulty to the lowest setting but the stupid mission still gives me a boss or elite boss that is impossible to take down without a shivan?
How am I supposed to overcome that then? Ask for help? No one wants to come into a mission just to clear the end mob. Wait to out level the mission? Sure I could do that, as long as it's not timed and I don't mind getting crap XP for the mission, and I don't run out of contacts in the meantime. Not to mention having a dead mission take up a mission slot. Stupidest design ever only allowing us to have 3 missions at a time. Or maybe I could drop the mission, except not every mission is able to be dropped.
Oh yeah, I could team.
As if.
I don't think it was ever part of the design for absolutely every build to be able to solo absolutely every mission. Sometimes your rock meets paper.
The vast majority? Yes.
Are Nukes and Shivans supposed to make things easier? Yes. Are they going to be removed? I doubt it, and I don't think they should be.
Nerfed, likely. Made more difficult/risky to obtain (in line with how powerful they are), I can see. Instanced/Limited? Would make sense.
But I don't think the game will or should ever be designed so that every possible build can beat every mission solo. To do that, you'd have to remove damage/defense typing (for instance), at least at Heroic.
I suspect it might please more people if Heroic were even easier than it is now, and Invincible were far tougher. Personally, I'd rather have that than have people whipping out Shivans every time they have a tough fight.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
[ QUOTE ]
As pretty much everyone knows, despite my best efforts to prevent this power from stacking from multiple users, it can still be stacked.
At some point in the future, I *will* get code support to eliminate the problem. In the meantime, if people are abusing this loophole (it's an exploit but not an "Exploit" -- GM's and petitions won't do anything about it at this time) I suggest that you blacklist their team and simply do not engage them in PvP.
For the PvE folks reading this, no, Vengeance is not meant to stack in PvE, either and the change, when it happens, will apply in those encounters as well.
[/ QUOTE ]
WHEW!!!! I was starting to get worried that another power was needing to be balanced because its not working as intended. Castle btw, my car isn't working as intended. Oh and my performance review at work is "not working as intended". Oh and my cats urinary system around my couch is "not working as intended". I can see the phrase being used in other situations, BUT NOT IN THE CONSISTANT SCREWING UP OF POWERS!. Is my attitude working as intended?
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If you've got some heavy -recharge on you, and the only thing you've got left is sands of mu, and that helps you survive, should that be nerfed? what about the nem staff, baseball bats, flamethrowers, or any other temp power that anyone has earned in the game?
[/ QUOTE ]
Go back and read the part where I said farmable. I'll add to that. The Vet Powers are balanced around permanent use. The shivans and bombs weren't BUT ARE BEING USED AS SUCH.
See the difference?
[/ QUOTE ]
So then would you suggest to make them all one-time use? What would that do to the people who are in a TF and are having a really difficult time with some AV? (take Lanaru, for instance) With shivys and nukes, that team that spent X number of hours (5-7 or more, depending on how well they did) would be able to actually finish the thing, instead of spending half the day and end up frustrated?
Or, what about the people who enjoy to solo and who come across an evil EB? with shivs and nukes, those people can overcome the EB and continue on their merry way?
so, my question is, are you calling for complete removal, or one-time use?
[/ QUOTE ]
Lanaruu was able to be defeated before shivans and nukes. We also have base teleporters and inspirations storage.
Soloing and EBs? Again, that's what Insps are for.
I am calling for the complete removal of shivans and warburg bombs. And Only shivans are warburg bombs. If not that, then nerf them to values equal to their now perma-use status.
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I'm calling for your brakes to quit on a curvy road
Sorry, but I did not want to look through an entire PvP thread to ask this question about Vengeance:
Does this mean that the Nemesis Veng will not stack in PvE?
AKA: Janlee
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6 to 8 what? And what, pray tell, was your opinion of the reasoning behind rad's nerf?
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Do you actually understand the scale of the "nerf" to Rad?
Do you actually understand that it made everyone else with meaningful -regen actually able to contribute -regen when it really is needed?
All the nerf did is make it so that two powers of LR's general power completely shut off an AV/GM's regen, instead of having the magic bullet of a single Rad.
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I'll tell you why. When you have 8 folks slamming on Babbage in Skyway getting nowhere and a single /rad shows up and Babbage goes down in 5 minutes, you quickly learn that rad is "needed" for all AV encounters.
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Bill... you know Babbage isn't an AV, right?
I said AVs. Not GMs. AVs and GMs are not the same.
The LRSF has AVs in the end. Not GMs.
I should add that I've participated in GM defeats literally hundreds of times that had not an ounce of -regen in them. +Damage, -DR, +AttackRate - those things have been sufficient to allow teams as small as six characters defeat open zone GMs like Enochai and Jack in Irons. Could absolutely any ATs of any powersets at all have done that? No, almost certainly not. But it is possible, and without regen debuffs.
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If you don't need shivans and warburg bombs, then you don't need them and you should be backing the call to have them removed.
[/ QUOTE ]
That doesn't follow at all. It certainly doesn't follow the rest of your earlier argument. You claim the missions are impossible without them, and so they should be removed so the missions will be made easier.
First, I question that very much. Second, if Shivans and Nukes aren't needed (which I maintain), then they aren't actually affecting the balance of missions like the end of the LRSF/STF, and removing them would not achieve that goal.
They have their uses. They add damage and aggro soaking. Do they add to much? That's a separate debate - you're linking it specifically to the end "raid" content difficulty, and I think that's a big mistake.
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Because he flat out said that gimiicks weren't the way.
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You have no proof that he thinks shivans and bombs are gimmicks.
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Well, aside from what Castle came along and said, I think it would be pretty weird if they thought PA dropping was a gimmick but a Braveheart charge of Shivans wasn't.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA