Jack Emmert, GameInformer, and Me
By
Alimistar,
Posted on: 2007-04-20 09:55 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Interesting ideas here. I think the proving factor behind them though will be the success of Marvel Online. Cryptic now has that good history and something with a large fanbase. We'll see what State's can do with it.
I'm starting to wonder... isn't it VASTLY possible that the devs are allowed to log on as states, just to keep up his appearances?
I sometimes wonder if that's really Jack at all anymore.
Maybe he reads the forums everyday, but he sure doesn't read his PMs everyday. ::looks hard at Jack::
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Hahahaha. God those were the days. The best MMO ever to date, hands down baby. Which tells you, the state of the gaming industry is just sad when an old game on EGA graphics outdoes games run on modern technologies. Man do I ever miss the PvP from that game and all the times spent fighting in the shack and in the sewers. And perma death PvP in the DM Room baby!
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Something has to be said about bias here. I have a sneaking suspicion you like that game now because you liked it then. I looked at it and I've no doubt I'd want no part of it. In the same vein, I like and play Captain Comic to this day, but I have no illusions - compared to contemporary games, that game SUCKS. I just have such fond memories from playing it.
But that's one thing. You ALWAYS have fond memories of playing a game that was good back in the day. Except when you go back to it years later after not having played it for said years, oftentimes you realise that your memories are not of WHAT the game was like but rather of what YOU felt when you were playing it. I've had so many instances of that I've learned to spot it a mile away.
Curious example from a few years ago. My mother was arguing that the old, 1980s (or were they older) Spider-Man cartoons were so much better than the new 1994 version they were showing on Fox Kids. I forgot how that discussion started, but she was adamant about it. Up until I found a copy of an old Spider-Man cartoon and ran it. Instant proof of just how UGLY those cartoons were and she conceded immediately. "But I remember them being so good" she claimed. And they were at the time. So she remembered them being good. Nowadays, they no longer are, but out memory keeps impressions, not fact.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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...eloquently showing that an MMORPG can be successful by breaking the norm and thinking outside the box.
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Now how is introducing loot and PvP thinking outside the box again considering WoW and Lineage had it prior?
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WoW came after CoH so at least that was not prior. As a whole, CoH doesn't have the common loot system like WoW, Lineage, FF, etc. At the very least in the approach is different. PvP is inevitable, but how it is introduced, developed, and executed that counts. PvP is a hot topic right now, so I won't expand too much, but playing a few myself, I find a good PvP night in CoX an absolute blast. If you are refering to the introduction of recipes and the like as "loot" then this "loot" will be much more useful than picking up dozens of weapons, jewels, misc things that we could never use and just ditch anyway. We get to build some great things (kudos to Dr. Brainstorm and the inventions dev team)
My post was and is an opinion by a casual player who doesn't get into the microscopic break down of why my power missed a level x baddy y amount of times and only did z amount of whatever when it hit. I play the game and enjoy every pixel I see and every moment with every friend I have made. This is truly an amazing game!
And true I learn things every day...I thought EQ was first. Didn't even think of UO. As for forums and community, I don't spend my time in a variety of MMO's but like to try new things. The CoX commuinty has been by far the best experience I have ever had (hence the title "...and me")
Thanks all for your responses...keep up the positive ones and just so anyone wonders, I wrote this after I regained consiousness from seeing Statesman post in my thread.
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I thought States was like Hickman...you have to intone his name 3 times for him to appear. Watch!
Hickman.
Hickman.
HICKMAN!
*pants fall down*
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You don't have to yell.
The trouser sacrifice was a nice touch, though.
Troy Hickman - So proud to have contributed to and played in this wonderful CoH universe
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Hahahaha. God those were the days. The best MMO ever to date, hands down baby. Which tells you, the state of the gaming industry is just sad when an old game on EGA graphics outdoes games run on modern technologies. Man do I ever miss the PvP from that game and all the times spent fighting in the shack and in the sewers. And perma death PvP in the DM Room baby!
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Something has to be said about bias here. I have a sneaking suspicion you like that game now because you liked it then. I looked at it and I've no doubt I'd want no part of it. In the same vein, I like and play Captain Comic to this day, but I have no illusions - compared to contemporary games, that game SUCKS. I just have such fond memories from playing it.
But that's one thing. You ALWAYS have fond memories of playing a game that was good back in the day. Except when you go back to it years later after not having played it for said years, oftentimes you realise that your memories are not of WHAT the game was like but rather of what YOU felt when you were playing it. I've had so many instances of that I've learned to spot it a mile away.
Curious example from a few years ago. My mother was arguing that the old, 1980s (or were they older) Spider-Man cartoons were so much better than the new 1994 version they were showing on Fox Kids. I forgot how that discussion started, but she was adamant about it. Up until I found a copy of an old Spider-Man cartoon and ran it. Instant proof of just how UGLY those cartoons were and she conceded immediately. "But I remember them being so good" she claimed. And they were at the time. So she remembered them being good. Nowadays, they no longer are, but out memory keeps impressions, not fact.
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Comparing me to say your mom is like comparing apples and oranges. I've made my decisions off of logical progress and evolution of the industry. I know of others I've spoken with regarding the subject that feel similiarily as I. If NWN was around now, I'd still be playing and so would quite a number of people I know. Yes we're fans, but the game itself is genuinely fun. To be honest I miss the turn based combat and the PvP was unlike no game out there.
There's actually a number of the fanbase that went and made a psuedo NWN game thats a combination of the original NWN and Dark Sun Online. Although in my opinion it's not quite up to speed as the original NWN. The original NWN was superior in many ways, one of which was the way they handled guilds. Guilds weren't just formed by one guy that talked to an NPC somewhere. Their was a process you had to go through that lasted a whopping six months and they were held accountable for the actions of their membership.
I also know another group thats trying to bring back Multiplayer Battletech, only unfortunately they aren't having much luck with that as it's a group of private developers with no cash flow nor any support from the company. Not to even get into the licensing issues that killed the online form earlier when EA was poised to re-release MPBT 3025.
Quite honestly I'm really fed up of all these games that are pretty but have no guts to them. I'm also an old school table top gamer, so thats my measuring stick. NWN pulled it off, so did many of the other old school games. It's just a pity that none of these more modern games can own up to that. One thing that Jack did state on many times was that how the roots of MMORPG's are found in table top games.
Very true, and a point we agree on. However, after say the old games, I just don't see their influence any further. It all seems to be a cookie cutter EQ'esque styled game to me, thats all just really rather vanilla.
Sweet cruddy, someone remembers Captain Comic! I loved that game!
It's how I learned classical music. 
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the earliest version of Neverwinter Nights came out six years before that!
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What game is that? NwN isn't that old
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Yep, it is.
http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/
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the earliest version of Neverwinter Nights came out six years before that!
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What game is that? NwN isn't that old
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Yep, it is.
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Wow... A subscription fee of 6 bucks an hour... Oh no! Change the post, we don't want the devs seeing something like that 
I remember playing Island of Kesmai on Compuserve back in 1989 or so... until I got my first bill for more than $200!
Not long after that, I switched to MUDs which were free (well, 99% of them were free).
Certainly MMOs which can be "the next WoW" will be few and far between.
Still, there are companies with the pedigree and the funds to do it, and at the top of the A list is Bioware. They are "the" RPG company, and the only company with comparable name and goodwill to Blizzard. Afterall, Blizzard had a legion of fanboys. Bioware, similarly, has millions of registered users and has produced a nonstop string of megahits for both PC and console, since Baldur's Gate put them on the A list and BG2 made them into a legend.
WoW is a phenomenon, but they have more subscribers than their game deserves, frankly. It's a great game, and Blizzard did a lot of things well. For example, if you have lower end hardware, WoW is a lot more friendly to you than CoH. But Blizzard also had millions of fans, was very accessible as a fresh MMO, but this doesn't account for it. Instead, I think WoW hit a critical mass of fanboys, accessibility, ease of use for a newb, and widespread appeal (PvP, PvE, crafting, raiding, solo and team, widespread classes) that people signed up just to try it out and stayed often for social reasons. In other words, if you had them try all MMOs in a vacuum, knowing no one, WoW would not achieve nearly the success it has.
I still remember popping into Target to grab some game, and some little kid grabbed the last WoW box. "Wow, the last one!" he said. "Have you played this yet?" he asked.
"Yeah, it's okay. I like City of Heroes a lot better. Have you tried it?"
"What's City of Heroes?"
And while everyone has heard of WoW, CoH remains relatively niche. On the other hand, a LOT of people have played both and prefer WoW, but the margin is most assuredly not 80:1.
In any event, I hope Cryptic stays focused on fun and players. People trying desperately to mass-market everything is a recipe for disaster; DDO probably being the best example, mangling D&D rules to appeal more to traditional MMO themes and players, while offending the tabletop vets, and pleasing neither. (Although the problems run much deeper than that)
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Certainly MMOs which can be "the next WoW" will be few and far between.
Still, there are companies with the pedigree and the funds to do it, and at the top of the A list is Bioware.
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And, as you probably know, they are making one. Should be interesting to see what they come up with.
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An elegant synopsis. I think I'm going to have to go find this article. However, I doubt Jack will be reading this, which is a shame.
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*ahem* I read the boards every day!
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Apparently by starting with a vanity search*. 
*Vanity Search: A search of your own (user) name to see if people are talking about you.
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I gave up on vanity searches about two and half years ago
Too many people complaining about Hamidon Leechers, xp leeches, etc.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
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An elegant synopsis. I think I'm going to have to go find this article. However, I doubt Jack will be reading this, which is a shame.
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*ahem* I read the boards every day!
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< <
> >
Shameless self promotion
- Jock Tamson, Ack, I'm feeling a sense of shame. *attempts to squash it*
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Certainly MMOs which can be "the next WoW" will be few and far between.
Still, there are companies with the pedigree and the funds to do it, and at the top of the A list is Bioware. They are "the" RPG company, and the only company with comparable name and goodwill to Blizzard. Afterall, Blizzard had a legion of fanboys. Bioware, similarly, has millions of registered users and has produced a nonstop string of megahits for both PC and console, since Baldur's Gate put them on the A list and BG2 made them into a legend.
WoW is a phenomenon, but they have more subscribers than their game deserves, frankly. It's a great game, and Blizzard did a lot of things well. For example, if you have lower end hardware, WoW is a lot more friendly to you than CoH. But Blizzard also had millions of fans, was very accessible as a fresh MMO, but this doesn't account for it. Instead, I think WoW hit a critical mass of fanboys, accessibility, ease of use for a newb, and widespread appeal (PvP, PvE, crafting, raiding, solo and team, widespread classes) that people signed up just to try it out and stayed often for social reasons. In other words, if you had them try all MMOs in a vacuum, knowing no one, WoW would not achieve nearly the success it has.
I still remember popping into Target to grab some game, and some little kid grabbed the last WoW box. "Wow, the last one!" he said. "Have you played this yet?" he asked.
"Yeah, it's okay. I like City of Heroes a lot better. Have you tried it?"
"What's City of Heroes?"
And while everyone has heard of WoW, CoH remains relatively niche. On the other hand, a LOT of people have played both and prefer WoW, but the margin is most assuredly not 80:1.
In any event, I hope Cryptic stays focused on fun and players. People trying desperately to mass-market everything is a recipe for disaster; DDO probably being the best example, mangling D&D rules to appeal more to traditional MMO themes and players, while offending the tabletop vets, and pleasing neither. (Although the problems run much deeper than that)
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Thats pretty close to how I feel about the whole WoW vs. COH debate(when it IS debated). I've tried WoW...and really...its not a better game where it counts the most for me.
I've had quite a few gaming buddies get hooked...but those were mostly folks who never got into MMOs at all before they dipped into the WoW-Crack.
Blizzard had a huge reputation as a quality maker of RTSs. This very much catapulted WoW to huge subscription numbers even before it went beta. Blizzard also has a habit of doing incredible marketing. They hype their games in such as way as to have the average guy drooling for them to come out even though it could be years before a hint of actual gameplay is seen by the public.
WoW was part accident...and no, that doesn't mean I'm taking away from its success. However, the fact that a goodly number of top end Blizzard devs left to form a company that would try to stick closer to the Blizzard tradition means that something of the flavor of the company was lost with WoWs success. I can tell you that I'm looking forward to Hellgate: London a WHOLE lot more than I ever got excited about WoW.
One more thing, I'll add. WoW is a relatively simple game. COX has more depth of gameplay when it comes to combat...not to mention that the combat FEELs more solid and meaningful.
Basically, I want COX to continue to improve and grow...but I DON'T want that growth to be copy-catting of every 'major' MMO on the market. The things I keep campaigning for are improved missions, both in terms of variety of mission types and a more interactive mission environment that lets us use our powers to do new and interesting things. Also AVs that have unique environments to fight in where heroes can create alternate paths to victory apart from just pounding attack after attack after attack.
Inventions is starting to get my nod of approval( I wasn't so sure at first). I'd also like more power and animation customization as well as MORE POWERSETS!!!!
In any case...make mine Cryptic!!!
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It began with the first MMO, EQ.
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Sorry CuppaKenja, EQ wasn't even close. According to the Wikipedia:
* Ultima Online: released on September 25, 1997
* EverQuest: released on March 16, 1999
Gotta give Lord British the credit here. I know there were various MUDs predating UO, some even with graphical elements. There were also graphical games that allowed cooperative online play. But as far as a full blown modern MMORPG, everything I've read puts UO first.
(Otherwise an interesting post.)
-- Rich
* Thresholds CoH: What to do When
* My Comics Collection
And Meridian 59 came out in 1996.
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
Wile
Slagheap
Pressure Wave
Rhiannon Bel
Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
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An elegant synopsis. I think I'm going to have to go find this article. However, I doubt Jack will be reading this, which is a shame.
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*ahem* I read the boards every day!
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I doubt it... I'll bet someone lets him know when comments like this come up just so he can slip in, pretend he's following along, and then slip away again to do whatever it is he does when he pretends to be too busy to answer serious questions.
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An elegant synopsis. I think I'm going to have to go find this article. However, I doubt Jack will be reading this, which is a shame.
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*ahem* I read the boards every day!
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I doubt it... I'll bet someone lets him know when comments like this come up just so he can slip in, pretend he's following along, and then slip away again to do whatever it is he does when he pretends to be too busy to answer serious questions.
[/ QUOTE ]Or like I suggested, a trusted developer like Positron is allowed to log in as him and post ambiguously when threads like this appear...
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An elegant synopsis. I think I'm going to have to go find this article. However, I doubt Jack will be reading this, which is a shame.
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*ahem* I read the boards every day!
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I doubt it... I'll bet someone lets him know when comments like this come up just so he can slip in, pretend he's following along, and then slip away again to do whatever it is he does when he pretends to be too busy to answer serious questions.
[/ QUOTE ]Or like I suggested, a trusted developer like Positron is allowed to log in as him and post ambiguously when threads like this appear...
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I bet he has an intern whose only task is running ego searches for him.
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
Wile
Slagheap
Pressure Wave
Rhiannon Bel
Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
KuppaKenja
Was going to send this as a pm but thought I'd put it here as a response.
Thank you for your post. This really is why I come to the boards. Your thoughts on the article were well thought out.
So often I see posts that are darkly pessamisitic. Not just Doooom posts but cynical or cautionary posts that leave me angry, or sad.
Your love for this game, as well as your optimism for the MMO genera in general shows through with every word.
Your interest in finding information, and giving that information back to your community is well appreciated.
You also have made me want to find a copy of the article. This shows your ability to "sell," a subject. If you haven't thought of it before, you should look into sales brochure copy writing.
Thank you, and I look forward to reading future posts by you.
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How? City of Heroes was literally the new kid on the block. The name wasnt very known, the developer was new to the scene (for many), and the only thing the title had going for it was the premise of being a unique hero in a city full of heroes! Every player was a new player. Every experience fresh and unlike anything before. Three years later, the game is still strong, with a nice consistent player base, and a community to set the standard to any industry. I have never before seen such a game or online community that works so integrated. I have seen amazing progress in the game and it is because of this community. Yea there will be those that complain and gripe (remember the explosion when ED was introduced...a necessary evil) but think of this. We have had 8 issues of enhancements, progress, and proof of commitment in these 3 years and about to get the 9th. We have also seen the introduction of the villain side of the coin. WoW in these years has had, count with me, one. (chirp chirp) and you had to pay for it to boot. If some of you may remember, CoH planned an expansion that we had to pay for as well, but nixed the idea and decided to give us those goodies for free in intervals through upcoming issues.
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Disclaimer: I hate wow. I only played it because my stupid stupid friends wouldn't do anything else with their times.
This isn't quite right, I don't think. Wow has had numerous free 'issue' updates, including cross-server pvp matching, the pvp battlegrounds introduction, additions of major new zones and dungeons, as well as content. The latest Burning crusade we paid for is comparable to the release of city of villains, except, frankly, the amount of content for that release was greater in some ways than the content for CoV.
This is emblematic of how WoW stays on top, too--they make sure their updates are massive. While the CoH team works hard to implement the kinds of improvements we see; seemingly focused on specific tasks every issue, the WoW team appears to have several sub groups that can add a dungeon, new equipment, new monsters, new quests, and a new coded feature all at once. It's their advantage in being part of blizzard. Beyond even this is the fact that WoW is a grind-only game, and CoH is a partial-grind game. Wow lives on content, and slowly doling that content out. CoH has no options but to 'grind', but that process is more entertaining--as far as the CoH devs are concerned, capping out on levels and still having something to do isn't the gameplay focus--for WoW, since it is very truly a treadmill, plowing to max level and then still having more plowing to do is key.
For this reason, the numerous Issue releases that WoW has had have added a great deal to end-game content. In terms of novelty quality, there's alot there, and if CoH had the same kind of team, they could probably do the same kind of thing with elaborate trials and environments that exist nowhere else. However, since this game doesn't do loot at all, they do avoid that time sink.
Regardless, the point to make here isn't that Wow is better, it's not. It's horrible and immoral to do to people what that thing does--for no reward other than a painfully slow IV drip of prettier swords. But they know exactly what they're doing to their playerbase when they make new content, and the playerbase is meant to go through all new content together, with some staggering due to the advantage that the unemployed or obsessive compulsive have.
CoH has a variety of content that's been added in the middle of the game, so for devs, it's harder to hit the population with new content all at once--since the pop has a choice, and may not even be in the necessary level range any more.
In general I *do* favor a system in which people can enjoy content updates all together, even if it is somewhat of a nightmare in WoW's case. But what CoH really seems to prefer is the comic book 'pan-universe' approach, where some plotline affects every aspect of the game at once. Some of the great examles have been the holiday events, the shadow shard thing, and splitting of the 5th column into the council.
I think this is the strength of CoH. A new zone with a new pan-world event. And the greater extent to which these events are developed (so that they include, perhaps, the new wandering monster fights, or zone based objectives), the more positive differentiation you'll see between WoW's shiny treadmill, and CoH's variety of aerobic exercise options, which include treadmills, eliptical machines, rowing machines, exercise bikes, and an indoor track.
If this game had intramural lacrosse, this would be perfect.
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I'm starting to wonder... isn't it VASTLY possible that the devs are allowed to log on as states, just to keep up his appearances?
I sometimes wonder if that's really Jack at all anymore.
Maybe he reads the forums everyday, but he sure doesn't read his PMs everyday. ::looks hard at Jack::
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Obviously there's a whole load of Statesman robot doubles, and this was one of them replying.
Like with Superboy and Smallville.
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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I'm starting to wonder... isn't it VASTLY possible that the devs are allowed to log on as states, just to keep up his appearances?
I sometimes wonder if that's really Jack at all anymore.
Maybe he reads the forums everyday, but he sure doesn't read his PMs everyday. ::looks hard at Jack::
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Obviously there's a whole load of Statesman robot doubles, and this was one of them replying.
Like with Superboy and Smallville.
Eco
[/ QUOTE ]::gasps::
Of course... robot clones... ::jots down notes::
I predict this thread will explode with popularity once the "regulars" read the Dev Digest. Woodwork opening, engage!
--NT
They all laughed at me when I said I wanted to be a comedian.
But I showed them, and nobody's laughing at me now!
If I became a red name, I would be all "and what would you mere mortals like to entertain me with today, mu hu ha ha ha!" ~Arcanaville