Official Thread: Safeguard Missions
By
1tonweasel,
Posted on: 2006-11-14 21:05 in Developers' Corner
The Vault door needs more HP.
I've ran the PI safeguard several times on my illusion controller with superspeed. I run to the bank while invisible. I get inside and I run to the vault as fast as SS goes.
When I get there, Silent Blade has got the vault door to 5% HP. I've seen her blow the vault door on my nose two times already. This is when my character gets there as fast it possibly is.
Tried on Heroic and tried on Rugged. Silent Blade destroys the vault door less than 30 seconds after I set foot on the bank.
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I agree that the vault door can use more HP because in the Mayhem Missions, the vault doors scale up to the villain level. Maybe not AS high as what the villains fight in Mayhems but more definitely.
When I did my SGM, I entered the bank as the Villain was running to the vault (I saw the chat bubble moving). I defeated the 3 guards in the lobby and by the time I got to the vault, she had just blown the door off. That's really fast.
You don't hit smiling monsters - Sister Flame
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I believe you misunderstood MadScientist
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I stand corrected, and revise myself - I agree entirely. The vault door is paper thin as it is, and actually reaching the robbers before they break it is already extremely difficult. Having an AV as the lead robber makes it ridiculous.
Also, tangenting to the PM from Castle about the increased perception - I'm sorry, but that's an extremely poor idea. Devs, you've explicitly told us to rush the bank the moment we get into the instance. Okay, fine. But then you've put us in a situation where we are FORCED to aggro several spawns along the way, enter a stupidly dangerous fight and cause ourselves later penalties because we've left a number of aggroed spawns to trash the zone. It also makes stopping the robbers notably more difficult as every attempt I've been on so far has ended up battling not only the robbers but one to three neighboring street spawns as well - making it almost impossible to track the robbers in the first place. Battling an AV, an eight person Arachnos spawn plus two more eight person spawns of Malta is a challenge ridiculously out of whack with the rest of the game.. and yet for a Safeguard mission is very much a common possibility.
Lv 37 DM/DA Scrapper soloing it at 3rd difficulty level.
Met Shocking Jolt or something like that. Boss was EM I did ok. When he hit 20% HP that's when trouble starts. He would go into an electric form and I do only 5-10% dmg. Needless to say the only solution is to run away and come back later. Pretty annoying to say the least.
I expected a different one in Freedom falls. Nope. Same thing. EM guy.
I went with a 3 man party on invul . The spawns are lvl 40. Same thing. Except we died once...after he triggered the form we couldn't cope. I had to resort to wait till it wears off tactic again. Devs can you please change this? I don't understand how 'fun' it can get fighting an AI with such behavior with no counter except 'waiting it out' I never face this kind of problem in CoV mayhems and I had much more fun doing it. On COH, after doing it three times, I don't feel like doing anymore.
Level 48 Invulnerable/Fire Tanker
On any setting above Heroic the getting the keys to the side missions are next to impossible. Carnie bosses + Invulnerable Tanker = Dead Tanker ....... period.
I realize that at one time the Invulnerable powerset was way overpowered. But giving just about anything above level 40 that moves psionic attacks pretty much ends the fun of playing the game at level 40 for a Invulnerable.
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Issue:
Malta (Sappers at least, then the rest once hit) seem to be seeing through Super Speed and Stealth on Peregrine Safeguard. This occured multiple times to multiple individuals with varying degrees of stealth running.
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This is true for the street groups in all the safeguard missions.
Although I enjoy the missions, it annoys me that concealment powers don't provide any benefit. As soon as you get in an enemy group's activation range, they aggro on you (as well as nearby objects). I don't mind the enemies attacking objects when you activate them, but they still shouldn't see you until you're in their concealment-adjusted aggro range.
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Even with no stealth, the enemy's aggro range seems absurdly large. My friend and I, who "have been playing this game for years" (tm), both agreed that something was just not right.
Neither of us used stealth powers, but having just come from a more normal police-band mission, the enemies on the safeguard map just noticed us from way farther away.
I really think there is just a flat-out bug here. The enemies in safeguard missions aren't obeying perception rules.
- Protea
And for a while things were cold,
They were scared down in their holes
The forest that once was green
Was colored black by those killing machines
No, they are not and that needs to be fixed.
I was having mobs spot my Peacebringer at *MAX* range of her Nova single-target blasts (which are snipe-range).
Ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. If this is intended, it needs to go away.
"A good Defender is the battle hardened Corpsman who will kill a Nazi with a tongue depressor while putting a splint on your leg, then hand you a fresh clip of ammo." ~Jock_Thompson
Repeat Offenders, TNT Profile, My little hero
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all I could conclude was that there was just too much stacked against me to overcome.
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I've tried my second even-level safeguard mish now and pretty much that's the right conclusion. This is not a mish for even-level non-uber-AT-and-build soloers. This is a mish for a high-dps, self-healing, efficiently-mobile protagonist (whether team or solo).
I don't mind that the game adds team-centric and dps-centric challenge missions. I'm not sure the bonus mission at the end of a police band mish sequence is the most appropriate place for it, but it does have various places in the game. The rsf is like the most extreme version of such a mission.
I'm a bit more concerned though that it seems like nearly every mish is dps-centric. And there is nothing that rewards other build styles. What about missions that are geared towards being relatively vulnerable to stealth tactics? What about missions that are geared towards being relatively vulnerable to controls? What about missions that are geared towards being relatively vulnerable to consistent minor advantages (which is basically how defenders solo)? What about missions that are geared towards being relatively vulnerable to taunting schemes?
I think maybe it's time now for CoX to introduce alternate means of defeating enemies other than just pure damage vs. health. It seems like what instead is needed is to replace the health bar with more of a tap-out bar, (tap-out more as in a ultimate fighting championship sense, where when a combatant has had enough he taps his hand on the ground to indicate that he gives up).
If the tap-out bar represents more a toon's will to continue fighting, (or resisting arrest), then different mobs can be made more vulnerable to certain types of tactics. Regen rates then become more of a resistance-type buff vs dps tactics. Mez tactics would no longer require an artificial damage component to them. Attacks from stealth could be merged into a category of fear tactics, (and so could -recharge effects that leave a mob or player with more than 5 or 6 powers still recharging, or perhaps with no powers left at the ready). Being overwhelmed by numbers of opponents (MMs) or sheer intimidation (Tanks/Brutes) could be categorized into intimidation tactics. Then there are pure turtling combat styles that can score tap-out points by attempting to prove as much as possible that any incoming enemy attacks are (relatively) pointless.
If all of these categories were balanced towards the behaviour of the tap-out bar, then differen mobs and missions could be rebalanced to have vulnerabilities to different tactical categories, and it would be interesting for teams to try to rebalance themselves for each next encounter. Every AT would have the ability to solo parts of the game, without losing team value. And then a safeguard mission that is balanced to require strong dps tactics becomes understandable for everyone.
That's my take anyway.
Suggestion: Force the bank robbers to set up a bomb on the vault door, instead of having them atack it. This set-up process would take exactly 5 minutes. and can be interrupted by attacking them, but if they defeat you, then they resume setting up the bomb where they left off. Personally I think this would solve the problem most people are having with the robbers fleeing the bank seconds after you reach it.
Also... could we, I don't know, destroy the robber's getaway vehicle?
And, yeah, fix the mobs' perception thingy... Some of the more durable archetypes might find it a bit annoying, but us squishys REALLY can't take the extra aggro... 'specially when we're hit with holds...
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Tell me about it. I did the Brickstown one with a sk'd Defender. It was merely a nuisance to my Invul Tank, but my sk wound up with like an entire level's worth of debt. She tried flying up and over all of the mobs, but they still aggroed on her nonetheless. I feel kind of bad about even inviting her to it in the first place...
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This is a mish for a high-dps, self-healing, efficiently-mobile protagonist (whether team or solo).
Into which of these catagories does a Trick Arrow/Arrow Defender fall?
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I just finished my first safeguard mission; Talos Island. The bank was not marked on my mini map and I spent a good deal of time finding it. When I finally found the bank I got a "Stop Villians from Escaping" MEssage. I defeated the first Arachnos mob and proceeded down the elevator. Downstairs I found a floating bag of cash and no villians. I went back upstairs and got a "Mission Failed" message. Is this a known bug?
Unfortunately I forgot bug it before logging off.
I ran the Founder's Fall Safeguard with my 44 MA/Inv Scrapper and bugged it.
Went straight to bank and finished it. Went to where the vandals were and cleared them...twice...got 2 side missions. Did the Arson mission and then headed to the Jail to stop the breakout. Completed that and when I exited the jail...I fell through the map and couldn't complete any more side missions. I had 18 minutes left.
So a waring...do the jail as the very last thing on the FF mission if you want to do all the side missions.
-Pinnacle
Sue Choppy-50-BS/WP Scrapper
-Justice
Chill Thrill-50 Ice/Dev Blaster
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This is a mish for a high-dps, self-healing, efficiently-mobile protagonist (whether team or solo).
Into which of these catagories does a Trick Arrow/Arrow Defender fall?
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Indeed. I've done two Safeguards so far -- Peregrine with my 46 TA/A and Talos with my 30 Ill/Rad controller. Both were solo, on Heroic, which is how I'm accustomed to doing Mayhems (normally I run on Rugged).
In both cases, I had a fairly easy time of it, although the archer died twice. (If I ever do that one again, I'm packing my tray with blues and greens.) I found all side missions, and completed all but the arson one in Peregrine -- I was defusing the last bomb when a couple of Strongmen came in through the door and interrupted me -- and completed everything in Talos. In both cases, I exited with a large chunk of time still on the clock, and I suspect I could've cleared the map if I wanted to.
In neither case did I ever receive a message telling me I'd lost time, even though by the latter part of the Talos SG, I was just running straight past street spawns and leaving them aggroed to smash up whatever they wanted.
I wasn't able to stop the villain from breaking into the vault in either case. In Peregrine, I received "The villain is getting away!" message and, thinking he'd gotten past me somehow, went straight to the getaway flyer, intercepted him as he came down the street, and stopped him cold. In Talos, I continued deeper into the bank once I got the message and caught the villain coming down the corridor into the lobby.
I do agree that it's annoying for the markers for completed side missions to stay on the map, but that's my only complaint so far.
34 heroes,
20 villains, Victory, Justice, Infinity, Virtue, Triumph, Exalted -- some more active than others
without reading through all of these, this is my observation. The robbery at the bank didn't take very long at all, they started making a b-line for the get-a-way truck almost as soon as I stepped into the bank. I find it easier to just wait by the truck for the bad guys to come to me.
One other thing that needs to be fixed, stealth and over all perception of the mobs. Stealth doesn't seem to make you stealthy, and the bad guys tend to see you even if you're across the block.
Other than that, they are fun though frustrating at times. The lower level ones set at heroic were hard, the level 50 set at invincible nigh impossible even though we won. If debt were an issue there, I'd be crying now.
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and now from Warhammer Online, Gorlok, Greenskin shaman
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I have run about 15 SGMs so far and my observations are thus for the PI version playing my 50 Invuln/Mace Tanker.
<ul type="square">[*]Low DPS builds are going to have difficulties solo and worse in larger spawns from teaming. (I ran all SGMs on Heroic and most solo) [*] Dark Ring Mistresses power that is -Regen effectively cripples my build. (I have 2 End in all Toggle Powers and 1 in all attacks. These mobs seem far more effective then their normal mission counter parts.)[*] Note to everyone Vidiot Maps has the Arson mob spawn listed in the incorrect location or it may have been moved. Either way on the PI map they are located at -767, 0, -282.8, next to city Info Terminal.[*] Enemies in Break Out side mission simply disappear so that you cant get credit for rescueing the PPD npcs. (Highly annoying)[*] Bombing Side Mission - Bombs always located in exactly same locations. (While easy for players to stealth, was this really the design?)[*] Increased effeciveness of zone mobs. (Broken Design concept imo. Simply put they balanced the game a specific way, players level to 50 and understand their build's strengths and weaknesses. Now they see the exact same mobs in a different kind of mission and the mobs don't behave as they expected. Its akin to saying "Your build is very defensive, Resistant, ect, but not in these missions sorry.") [*] Vandal are effectively not important (If a team or player simply focuses on side missions they never have to defeat the Vandal as the side missions are currently designed give enough additional time to never have to worry about it.[*] Several time Vandals have been defeated without me ever being near them and gaining bonus time. (I can only assume they attacked something that exploded and killed them or simply vanished and I got credit bonus time even though I did no damage to them. See Break Out mission for disappearing enemy example.)[/list]
These are strictly my opinions and are just a reflection of my experiences so far with Safe Guard Missions.
Golden Avatar - 50 Invul/Mace Tanker (Infinity)
Police Drone GA - 50 Fire/FF Controller (Infinity)
I'm having trouble getting all of the lower level safeguard missions (and their badges) for my lvl 50. We are unable to exemplar down to get either Police Scanner or Safeguard missions of our own in lower level zones. Granted we can team with lower level players to accomplish this, but it can take a long time to find someone. It just seems like a punishment toward those of us who've been here a long time.
Also, it appears that the Safeguard Zone you get depends on the level of the character in your team who gets the mission, and not on which zone you are in when you get it.
When teamed with a lvl 18 in Steel Canyon, we got the Skyway Safeguard. When teamed with a lvl 13 in Skyway, we got the Kings Row Safeguard.
And yet there is nothing I've been able to find to indicate which character levels are given which safeguards. This makes it a lot more time-consuming, and therefore frustrating. Note that I don't mind time-consumption per se. This is a game after all. What I do mind is standing around twiddling my thumbs while looking for a partner, then running through 3 scanner missions, then finding out the safeguard mission he can get is one I already have.
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I'm having trouble getting all of the lower level safeguard missions (and their badges) for my lvl 50. We are unable to exemplar down to get either Police Scanner or Safeguard missions of our own in lower level zones. Granted we can team with lower level players to accomplish this, but it can take a long time to find someone. It just seems like a punishment toward those of us who've been here a long time.
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And guess what all high level villains had to do when Mayhem Missions were introduced?
What's worse for them, they have an accolade that requires getting all the exploration badges for each MayMish.
"A good Defender is the battle hardened Corpsman who will kill a Nazi with a tongue depressor while putting a splint on your leg, then hand you a fresh clip of ammo." ~Jock_Thompson
Repeat Offenders, TNT Profile, My little hero
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The mob Perception needs to be lowered to match mob perception elsewhere in the game. Superspeeders in particular are getting hammered by this.
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And yet there is nothing I've been able to find to indicate which character levels are given which safeguards.
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Here you go:
5-10 Atlas Park
10-15 King's Row
15-20 Steel Canyon
20-25 Skyway City
25-30 Independence Port
30-35 Talos Island
35-40 Brickstown
40-45 Founders' Falls
45-50 Peregrine Island
Here's my initial take on these mish's. Very disappointing.
A little set up explanation. I am part of a small SG who has been playing together continually(in the same room, too!) since day 1. Needless to say, our team works like a well oiled machine. We have 1 Tank, 2 Scrappers, 2 Blasters, 1 Controller and 1 Defender(empathy). We are set on Invinceable. We routinely fight MOB's 4 levels above us, with little troubles and very few deaths. We communicate well because we are in the same room. When we attempted our 1st SGM, it ended about 3 minutes in, either with the enemy escaping or a bug, we're just not sure. The 2nd attempt was an utter fiasco, with all members dying multiple times, acquiring a good amount of debt. Our conclusion was the MOB's were too numerous, too tightly clumped together and way, way tougher than they should have been. It also seemed that the MOB's appeared out of nowhere, thus we were fighting multiple groups at once. I wont personally claim that we were doing everything correctly, but these mish's were WAY too difficult, and certainly NOT fun. We did not attempt any more of them and I'm not sure if we will again, unless something changes- just way too much chaos and not enough fun. Just my 2 cents. I'd like to see some tweaks, and I'm sure we'd try again. Thanks for listening.
I too am in the same boat of getting rid of the high perception critters. Super Speed is just a nightmare.
Yesterday I did the PI safeguard. I entered the mission and ran to the bank. The message sprung up that I had to stop the robbers. Arachnos came out of the door and I start kicking butt no problem. A sapper sees me from an unprecedented distance and drains all my end, I die.
I shook it off, I don't mind dying every now and again from too much aggro. "Go to hospital" sends me to the beginning of the map, and I'm ready to go again. But anyway, by now the robbers are getting away, I need to find them and stop them. I start my journey, and within seconds a streak of Blue energy is on me, sapping my endurance.
I eat a cab so I don't drop the toggles and continue to zip around looking for the running robbers. All of the sudden another sapper hits me with his ghostbuster rod and I start melting endurance yet again. I eat 2 more cabs to try and nullify that effect just as I spot the fleeing thieves. Another sapper sees me, saps me, I die.
Once again I start the journey and quickly head right for the robbers. I hit the boss and ran around in an alley to try and coax her into coming to 'safe' area where I wouldnt be sapped again. As I do this I am freaking being drained of endurance from another great distance. I lose all my end and the boss that is now pissed off at me again just 2 shots me and I die. The arachnos Lt with her had already started running and got to where he needed to be. The mission ended with me dead. I was sapped of endurance each time to cause a death from a distance that would otherwise be perfectly safe to stand.
Superspeed simply just does not cut it with your new 'higher perception' mobs in safeguards. A sapper's first attack is always the high end drain. If you superspeed down a road in the PI safeguard you will inevitably see 4 or 5 blue rays of light sapping your endurance.
I have been on 3, repeat 3, safeguards. That's three too many in my book. To say I'm disappointed would be an understatement.
Some things have already been pointed out; Superspeed doesn't get you unnoticed, etc.
From a soloers point of view, unless you're a tank or a scrapper, a hero's chances of survival are nil. You're not just outnumbered (hey, 2-3 vs. a single hero? No problem!), you're severely outnumbered.
My only suggestion is to reduce the mobs based on group size; maybe 3 main mobs robbing the bank in a solo mission when set on "Heroic" and raise it accordingly based on group size and mission difficulty.
Three observations:
1. Whatever rocket scientist decided to put carnies and malta on the same mission needs shooting, no end = no fun. Sappers are a particularly poor choice due to the modified aggro ranges.
2. Skyway mayhem, 4 man team, I'm playing earth/rad. We go into police station, I use earthquake, quicksand and RI and everybody's frame rate goes through the floor. This isn't happening anywhere else in the game.
3. I've done 2 non-solo SGs, and the only badge I've opened up is the signature villains one, despite the fact that one of these was the PI one, and the other Skyway, so I've done all the 7 available sides. I can understand the bombs working the same as the arson (both wrong IMHO, share the credit), but if the others are only credited to the toon that fires the last shot, there will be a lot of low damage types that will be really struggling to get them.
Mr Minotaur 50 stone/axe tank freedom
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
Ran my first SG mission tonight with my level 6 illusion/kin controller and my friend's level 6 stone/war mace tanker.
We began working our way to the bank, took out the Hellions that were in our path along the way. In the bank, some judicious use of Deceive reduced incoming fire and we managed to stop Rosethorn and pals without much trouble.
We took out a few sets of vandals after, one time arriving long before the vandals did. I was almost thinking it was bugged but the Vahzilok eventually showed up.
We never suffered any time penalties, although a few objects got trashed thanks to the rather obnoxious super-aggro range of the Hellions.
We defeated the Eidolon and mortificator for the one side mission -- stop the jailbreak. Freed two PPD and took out the would-be escapee. Shortly after that we got swarmed by Vahzilok and exited the mission rather than faceplant.
Overall, it went pretty smoothly, especially against the dreaded Vahzilok. The temp jetpack is very nice, of course, but the whole design of the mission -- "Go here! Go there! Do this now! Do that now!" -- isn't one I find especially engaging. I wish the devs would ease up on the heroes = reactive, villains = proactive stuff. I much prefer the more freeform style of mayhem missions, but that's just me.