Official Thread: Safeguard Missions
By
1tonweasel,
Posted on: 2006-11-14 21:05 in Developers' Corner
Okay, I took a different Blaster who had Knockback attacks, two melee Stun attacks. Took 4 Lucks, Strength of Will, Righteous Rage, Keen Insight. I was able to keep Ice Mistral stunned most of the time, got my final attack in just as she activated Powersurge. Obviously I learned from experience, but I don't think the Archery Blaster would be so Luck-y. I couldn't have kept Ice Mistral stunned or stopped any attacks with Archery's non-secondary effect and Powersink would bypass the Lucks = dead. Hmmm, give Archery Blast a secondary effect like all the other Blaster sets maybe? Secondary Effect = Damage Mitigation = a Blaster's only defense. And, Archery is not as powerful as most other Blaster sets. Double-Draw time (you draw the Bow, you then draw the Arrow) and first two attacks are too fast for a Double-Draw time animation.
Anyway, the other Blaster completed all the side missions, defeated all the Vandals, defeated all the street Mobs, searched for anything left behind for 5 minutes, zone was cleared, left with 90 seconds to go. Isn't there a badge for clearing out a Safeguard mission?
Quixotik
"I did not say this. I am not here." -Guild Navigator
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Isn't there a badge for clearing out a Safeguard mission?
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No, you don't get one for clearing the mission. There's an exploration badge in each of the different Safeguard missions, and you can get badges for completing side missions enough times. You get progress bars for completing side missions.
Well, no. Ice Mystral also appears as an AV for large teams so it is not just a PP. She spams status/mezz attacks and Powersink as the Lt version, kills you, then runs to getaway Mole instead of just standing there.
For starters, that doesn't sound like Ice Mistral. Shock Treatment, perhaps.
Secondly, the point is, again, mobs with teir-9 defenses are not new. People have been dealing with them for the last 2.5 years. Yes, they can be a handful but people have leared how to cope with them.
Maybe these are only supposed to be played by Scrappers and Controllers? I thought Heroic ment ANY Archetype.
I have successfully soloed Safeguards with every single hero AT. I've failed one on Live; my TA/A's second run at Steel Canyon tanked when I got hit with a massive lag spike in the bank. The second chance at the getaway truck failed because he had to fight the villain and all of the bank mobs at once.
Anyway, I took an Archery Blaster (first mistake, no Damage Mitigation/Secondary effect) got killed three times, still couldn't stop the Elite Lt. AV. However, any of my same level Scrappers would have had no real difficulty and that is what is very wrong with CoX.
Some mobs are going to be problematic for some builds. Can't be helped. That is not, in and of itself, indicative of a balance problem. How I would have tackled the problem would depend a lot on your secondary, which you have thus far failed to mention.
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Well, no. Ice Mystral also appears as an AV for large teams so it is not just a PP. She spams status/mezz attacks and Powersink as the Lt version, kills you, then runs to getaway Mole instead of just standing there.
For starters, that doesn't sound like Ice Mistral. Shock Treatment, perhaps.
Secondly, the point is, again, mobs with teir-9 defenses are not new. People have been dealing with them for the last 2.5 years. Yes, they can be a handful but people have leared how to cope with them.
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The problem honestly isn't that the tier 9 is there. It's that it's a tier 9 power on a 'stop from fleeing' mob. And for most ATs/power sets, that boils down to 'do your best to survive against a high damage boss for 180 seconds while still holding the aggro and not letting them run away', since overcoming the tier 9 is extremely difficult, if even realistically possible. A PP using MoG is a pain in the butt - a PP who's fleeing and I have to stop to avoid mission failure that uses MoG is quite unfair to the majority of people.
It's that it's a tier 9 power on a 'stop from fleeing' mob.
Which can't run if you attack it.
Once engaged they can't run, so all you have to do is not get defeated.
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I have to disagree, respectfully, on this one Venture. I've attacked, and had them run off with the orange numbers flying off their heads as they disappear in the distance. I know that you're really good at CoX--but I still find Safeguards (and Mayhems) near impossible to complete. Normally I consider my CoX aptitude as "average"...maybe I should lower it to below-average. :/
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All I can say is that I haven't had one bank mob run from me since the 10/23 patch to Test that fixed the problem.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
You can keep them there - as long as you've got the aggro still. I have more than few times lost it against a tier 9'ing mob because they hit that flee threshhold that is now so infamous in GMs, or because I spend so long not hitting they reclassify me as a non-threat and go about their business. Plus even that aside, there's still the problem that for most ATs/power sets, the fight becomes an endurance battle - lower damage sets frequently can't break past something with capped resists/defenses that also has high damage output. Last time my blaster got put up against Shock Treatment, I was three-shot. In that situation, I'm stuck fighting an opponent who can defeat me quickly, who I can not significantly damage and who I HAVE to stay engaged with for an extended period of time. Possible, yes. Oh yes. But not exactly a challenge in-scale with the rest of the game by any means.
Well stated, Tempest_56. I did the Faultline Safeguard tonight and failed with an Inv/SS tank that during the police band missions had no problem taking on mobs above his level. But I couldn't make it through the Safeguard even popping Inspirations like candy. I really enjoy the police band missions, but I think the Safeguard missions are not fun at best and probably broken... starting with the ridiculous window of time between the bank being robbed and the criminals escaping. Note: I beat the AP Safeguard twice, though failed the KR. But at least I've had some success (with a scraper and a dark/rad defender). My guess is that some AT's won't be able to complete these... 
Thanks for the backup, Tempest, and ThisIsIt. I concede the point, readily, that some players and some AT's can solo these just fine. My point is that I'm trying to determine where the average player, average AT, and average build falls. And thus far, I think these are way too hard.
I can't beat a Dark Ring Mistress, let alone with her associates. I can't beat the bank crew. (It happened once, I'm one for five or six.)
I've said it before. I have played my level 50 defender since April of '04. I raid my SG base of all the Tier 3 inspirations. I fire off Eye of the Magus. I just can't do these missions.
I think the "average" player should be able to finish these, even if they do it badly.
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i'll concede that some people can't win these.
I don't understand it myself. I'm not the best player out there i'm quite quite sure. I don't power build that i'm aware of.
Still i find these fun, relatively easy (when set to the lowest difficulty and solo) and quite a hoot. The temp powers gained through them make the run up to a travel power such a non-issue. I hope these aren't changed too horribly and i suppose i can just up my difficulty if the whole thing gets made easier.
I think the increased perception on street mobs is a mistake that should be fixed no doubt about it, but it hasn't seriously effected me so far.
I'll grant that in their way mayhems are whole different beast and sort of more fun as you can destroy everything (sorta).
These are much much more in line with the reactive hero/proactive villian philosophy of the game (and most comics).
Mayhems make me revel in destruction, SGMs make me run like mad to save the city. I like both of those feelings.
I will comment once again though you need only defeat the villians termed looters and leave those termed robbers to have unlimited time in the whole mission. An oversite that i think needs to be corrected for the design to work as intended.
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All I can say is that I haven't had one bank mob run from me since the 10/23 patch to Test that fixed the problem.
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I have and I bugged it too.
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I should clarify myself, I think. Since they've hit live, I've only failed one. I generally do them with a team, and I and they usually have fun on them. I would be lying if I said I didn't enjoy the missions.
However - there are still a number of points in them that just don't work.
Several of the robbery bosses are set up in ways that are massively skewed in difficulty - Shock Treatment's tier 9 + high damage, Savage Siren and the fear-spamming and Psi damage, so on - especally so in regards to the tough requirement to stop every single one of the mobs in the bank spawn. My one failed safeguard was fun, watching as the team got Terrorize-spammed and one lone minion with a moneybag that nobody managed to get the aggro of waltzed away. AVs being present as well skews things ridiculously - just the fact that they break through bank doors in seconds instead of a minute is completely out of whack. When we're told 'you have about five minutes to get to the bank to stop the robbery', and we actually get under 60 seconds, that isn't a challenge, that's decieving the players and frustrating.
The increased perception range is ridiculous. We're fighting identical mobs to those outside the safeguard, but without warning they blatantly break basic behavior rules. Beyond that, it has a number of negative implications. Sidekicks are the worst hit - I regularly watch at least one get smeared as, in the rush to reach the bank in time, somebody goes out of SK range for a moment and invariably one of the super-perception street spawns instantly obltierates them. Groups who aren't prepared or who are facing tougher opponents (See: PI Safeguards) are easily overwhelmed quickly and with no chance to actually do anything about it - just moving from one hotspot to another can aggro three or four spawns along the way.
The progression of it, the rewards and the general approach are also wonky. As has been said, the climax of it is almost immediately, and the reasons for staying around afterwards aren't all that good. XP/Inf/Prestige is earned as fast and usually easier by just moving onto another Band mission. I'm sorry, but it also feels very dumb to fight a Mu Guardian labelled 'Council Looter'. That's really just nitpicking, but there you go.
I like Safeguards. I'm probably going to continue to run them, and probably enjoy them. But they don't live up to the standards set by Mayhems, and have a number of aspects that fall sorely short. Safeguards CAN be great. They just need a bit of work to bring them up.
The villains in Safeguards need to take at least half as much time as us players take to break through them in Mayhems. It's unfair, that they can cut through all the rigamarole of breaking into the bank that the players have to deal with.
Granted, there are times like when I knockbacked one of the bosses(set on heroic) through the vault itself, so I had to wait for him to breakthrough the vault in order to take him out, in which it actually did take a long time for him to break in/out. But, other times it seems as if the moment I step in the bank the vault is exploding. Give us time to take out the lobby guys at a decent speed, and then to make it down to the vault in time for it to either blow open or stop them before they can actually do the damage.
And the whole +perception thing for street mobs in Safeguards is totally out of whack. Any sort of explanation as to why this is the case, other than by design, would be appreciated. But, as it stands, Clockwork mobs in Kings Row may well follow you half way across the map. How is that standard mob spawn activity?
Otherwise, they are good fun. The side missions are great hero versions of all the Villain Mayhems. And well, I love the police band missions just on general principle.
Thanks a lot for your hard work.
I just heard, from over on the badge forums, that pillbox captures give badge credit to the entire team now--instead of just the single player who captures them.
Why am I bringing this up here? Because if they apply this same code to the mayhem and safeguard missions--and give side-mission credit to the entire team instead of one person--I will gladly concede and withdraw my complaints!
And I'll look to team with YOU, Mr.-never-fails-a-SMG/MM in the future. 
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
I did a Safeguard mission today where one of the thieves was a fast moving Arachnos Drone and the other was a named villian Scrapper who fought me. I defeated the Scrapper, but the Drone was long gone. I opened the bank door to follow and the mission failed. So not possible to win if the Drone gets away? The Drone didn't carry any loot and I think it was faster than me anyway. Didn't have time to target it. Shouldn't it have stayed to fight also? It just seems like cheap shot to have a Drone whiz round a corner and you lose in that split second.
Quixotik
"I did not say this. I am not here." -Guild Navigator
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It's that it's a tier 9 power on a 'stop from fleeing' mob.
Which can't run if you attack it.
Once engaged they can't run, so all you have to do is not get defeated.
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Hm... In my (limited) experience with safeguards, I have not found this to be true. MY 50 dm/da scrapper attempted to solo one of these, on the setting just below invincible, and the named boss, who was some sort of broadsword or katana scrapper, kept running from me as I was attacking him. And he ran FAST, despite the immob from midnight grasp and the fear from touch of fear. I've copied this mission to Test, so I can fail it over and over until I figure out how to do it, but wth am I supposed to do if this guy just sprints like an olympic athlete to the exit regardless of my attempts to stop him?
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The villains in Safeguards need to take at least half as much time as us players take to break through them in Mayhems. It's unfair, that they can cut through all the rigamarole of breaking into the bank that the players have to deal with.
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So...you want them to revamp Mayhems so that you have to deal with the hero right from the start, instead of after you've already broken down the vault and snagged the loot? The hero always shows up after the looting, they're just being consistant.
Of course, if the robbers had to defeat the heroes, like in the Mayhem, that'd be more consistant, but.... =P
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kept running from me as I was attacking him. And he ran FAST
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QFT. :/
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
On my Atlas Park mission, I was turning my named villian into a pincushion as he RAN AWAY FROM ME. My archery blaster is literally pelting this guy -i'm talking he's taking DOTs from burning, and I'm pelting him with snap, aimed, snap, and he died right before he made it to the getaway car, thankfully. If I had it on any level above heroic, I'd have been owned.
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The hero always shows up after the looting, they're just being consistent.
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But in a Mayhem Mission the hero doesn't have to fight through a series of villains to get to player villain. He/She just has to get from the entrance to the vault or wherever the player villain is located.
Also, in a Mayhem, the player villain HAS to defeat the hero in order to win the mission. In a Safeguard, the villain doesn't have to stick around to defeat the player hero. Therefore, the villain in the Safeguard needs to take more time opening the vault OR the vault opens when the player hero is within about 25 feet of the vault.
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Some good issues brought up, didn't see this one though... and I kind of groan to bring it up but oh well:
Thanks for the temp-power, a little extra endurance is nice. The super-long duration is nice. Except that it comes with a full-body green glow that will not go away! I mean if in Invul or a Regen doesn't like the look of his powers, he can turn them off for some respite from them (even if inadvisable when fighting). But no, my hero glows green and will not stop. Kinda "need" some screenshots too but.... no... my hero glows green 
Silly complaint? Sure I guess, but it is no secret how much character/costume appearance means to some people. If it's a passive, no graphics effects, please. If a 5% boost to my endurance capacity is so game-altering for PvP that everyone needs to be warned about this, make it a toggle. Same goes for the runspeed boost one, but that graphic isn't as offensive to me, personally. If there's a way around this, I'll gladly take the flames that will come attached for not knowing it.
Can't you delete the power ?
They didn't change anything since they've been doing it for Villains, even after many complaints, hopefully they'll change it now that the heroes have a problem with it as well....one can only hope....
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Also, what is an Lt level Boss doing with Powersurge?
The same thing Minion level 7th Generation Paragon Protectors are doing with old-school MoG....
Mobs with teir-9 defenses are not new.
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Well, no. Ice Mystral also appears as an AV for large teams so it is not just a PP. She spams status/mezz attacks and Powersink as the Lt version, kills you, then runs to getaway Mole instead of just standing there. I don't mind a challenge, but this was a Heroic setting 'Mission' which played out as an Impossible Level Mission. That's what is wrong.
Maybe these are only supposed to be played by Scrappers and Controllers? I thought Heroic ment ANY Archetype.
Anyway, I took an Archery Blaster (first mistake, no Damage Mitigation/Secondary effect) got killed three times, still couldn't stop the Elite Lt. AV. However, any of my same level Scrappers would have had no real difficulty and that is what is very wrong with CoX.
The Dev's say, well, all AT's are not created equal so we have a difficulty slider instead. Then they ignore that because they don't want Scrappers to have it too easy or because they really want the mission to be equally challenging? But wait, the AT's aren't equal so the missions will never be equally 'challenging', they will just be a base line 'mediocre' because what is mediocre for a Scrapper is very challenging for a Blaster or some Defenders. So you see, if challenging missions is what the Dev's want they will have to balance the AT's first, otherwise they will need to start adhereing to what is a mediocre level of challenge for the stronger AT's as the base line of difficulty.
Other than that it was great. I thought the Mole Vehicle was very cool and thought, what if: You could arrive at this Mole Machine in some other mission arc, then the team takes control of it and rides in it to Nemesis's underground HQ for a huge battle after emerging from a copy of the Mole at that location?
Quixotik
"I did not say this. I am not here." -Guild Navigator