Official Thread: Safeguard Missions
By
1tonweasel,
Posted on: 2006-11-14 21:05 in Developers' Corner
I may have discovered something else about the enemies in safeguard missions- not only do they have increased perception and range, but they also seem to have increased damage as well, possibly more. I soloed the AP mish with one of my tanks, and totally got chewed up by two Hellions minions of equal level. This was utter bs- I just came from a Hellions mission before going the safeguard, and was taking on groups of four a level higher than I was with no problem. But two lowly Hellion peons? My Chilling Embrace didn't seem to even have any effect on them whatsoever. I actually had an easier time taking out the villain and his minions at the bank. I managed to confirm this heightened difficulty with yet another Hellion mission afterwards; the spawns in that mission were definitely weaker than in the safeguard.
Is this increase in enemy difficulty intended, or did I just get a weird bug with mine that made the mobs harder than normal? Because for a Tank to have trouble with these peons is ridiculous. If this was intended, then it serves no useful purpose other than to aggravate and/or annoy. If we want the safeguard to be more challenging, we'll set our difficulty level higher, thank you very much.
Two wrongs don't make a right. However, three rights make a left.
L00k, w3'r3 r3f0rmed! W3'v3 g0t l1v3s n0w, 4nd 1'm 4 buz1n3ss Pwnz0r! -Reformed Freak Proprieter
Seek. Find. Rularuu.
Target. Destroy. Rularuu.
Go. Hunt. Kill Skuls. Rularuu.
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Just won the Steel Canyon map with a 24 TA/A Defender. Cleared Weapons Deal, Breakout and Store Robbery sides; didn't die once.
Granted, this was on Heroic. But TA/A is one of the weakest combos in the game. So I really don't see how people can be having these horrible problems.
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try it with a team.
I read about half the posts thoroughly and skimmed the rest. I like safeguard missions. I think they are fun. I like that the pace is set by the mission and less by me and my team (like mayhems where you sorta have control over the order you do stuff as long as you have enough time).
I still feel that I want to destroy things, particularly in the beginning when I zone in, usually because I'm looking to get more time (but the timer hasn't even started yet). It's just a habit, but easy to break.
There's enough of a similarity between mayhem and safeguards to make the transition relatively easy. For example, I know there will be side missions and side missions are opened by defeating an unusual villain group (e.g. if most of the map is clocks and you see skulls, take them out). I also know that completing side missions give good time bonuses.
I don't particularly like the high perception of the villains in the missions, it makes it more hectic, which isn't always bad, but also seems like it's different enough from other pve encounters in missions that it should be addressed. I feel it is the same in the mayhem missions, too, but I've mostly done those with a stalker, which can actually hide from mobs in those missions.
I've run out of time in the lower missions (Atlas Park and Kings Row safeguard) with teams, so not sure how typical that is. With better teams I've been able to complete everything. I've been able to complete the main mission every time.
I think it's pretty balanced, but spawn sizes might be too close or too large sometimes, particularly because of the perception problem.
I agree with some people, that it might be nice to have a side mission like "Enter the boat and destroy the cargo" or "Enter the villain lab to destroy the robot factory" as instanced side missions that would have lots of destructible objects in it. Heroes want to destroy stuff too (sometimes).
try it with a team.
Why, so it will be even easier?
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
Ah , just a suggestion.
Go into the bank, do not engage the mobs there. stand at the door and wait. When the robbers come immob them and widdle them away. After that go for (or don't if you want unlimited time) the spawn that's just standing in the bank.
SGMs like Mayhems are terrible with a team.
I ran the brickstown SGM last night twice.
First as a duo 1 MA/regen scrapper and 1 storm/psi defender.
We succeeded easily in the main goal but as i was trying to teach the defender about SGMs all was sort of lost when he clicked out after we defeated the bank robbers.
I think we could have cruised most of the other side missions but who knows.
Second try was in a trio, we picked up a fire/kin troller several levels below us. This again we succeeded in the main mission of stoppign the bank robbery.
In this one however neither of the squishier classes could handle the attention they kept getting from long ranged perception.
We did manage to get to the side mission of rescuing a bunch of hosties in a jewelry store i think it was. This was fine until we hit the boss spawn. Here we get about 6 ink men siphoning my speed (the kin was a huge help here) but it all fell apart when the boss hits me with terrorize or something like it. they all kill the three of us. I come back with the troller (the defender again accidentally clicked out) we finish off the boss spawn but under the efffects of terror again it takes all the time i have left and apparently there's a mob somewhere still in the store so we're booted.
All in all i still think i could have done this mission no problem solo.
Will try it again today.
SGMs like Mayhems are terrible with a bad team.
Fixed that for you.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
I find SGM somewhat underwhelming. They are hard for me solo, as I play a Blaster, but that's not too big a deal. By the time I reach the bank, the villain is usually just exiting. I can get him about half the time.
It's the mobs in the map I can't survive. Malta seems to have crazy perception, the sappers can hit me from a ridiculous distance, well outside of my range. So by the time they reach me, I have no end. As a result of this, I just quit the SGM right after I beat the villain, because the first time trying to take on the mobs I racked up quite a bit of debt.
So it's a 3 minute mission for me. I go in, beat up the villain, and exit. Fun? Exciting? Hardly. To be fair, I haven't tried it with any other ATs, im sure Tanks or Scrappers can take the punishment of these super mobs, so I am going to try it out with some alts. But I am not impressed, Mayhem Missions are way more fun by far.
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Second today. Same teammate, but we did my PI SGM. We kill off a few mobs that spot us and head to the bank. We get close and get ambushed by Arachnos as the robbery starts. My teammate dies, rezzes to the entrance and comes back to me. I was fighting the bank robbers right at the bank entrance (initiated the fight right as they exited). We nearly had the boss killed when all of a sudden... Loading screen. Mission failed. I /bugged that. Horrid. We were in the mission maybe 5 minutes.
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My experience was similar on the PI SGM. I Super Jumped to the bank, zoned in, and during the first fight I was kicked out to PI. I didn't get a FAILED notice, nor did I get a XP reward or nifty little power.
Was wondering if I did something wrong. Was I not supposed to head into the bank?
The Safeguards just don't have the same kind of allure that the Mayhems do. The only real reasons to do them are;
A: The temp travel powers on lower lvls are a godsend. That jetpack makes the Hollows suck infinitely less.
or B: You're bored from the same old kind of missions. Even then Mayhems are far superior. The side missions in Mayhems can be done before the main task, thus earning you more time to complete it. Plus once you've finished robbing the bank, running the side missions, and blowing up everything possible to get the maximum extra time, you can still run around the map at your own leisure, blowing up stuff for the various badges. PPD for Outlaw, Longbow for Villain, vehicles for Impounder, random crap for Vandal, plus the exploration badge. In safeguards you've got no real reason to stick around once you've done everything. You only get time from defeating vandals and doing side missions, and the only thing they're good for is beating more vandals and finishing more side missions. Plus you only get badges for the main task and the side missions, so you can't really badge hunt afterwards, and unless you know exactly where the exploration badge is, it's a real pain in the ar$e trying to find it with all those supermobs running loose.
At any given time a safeguard is either too hard or too short. They can be fun at times, but aren't really worth the time and effort it takes to do them.
Two wrongs don't make a right. However, three rights make a left.
L00k, w3'r3 r3f0rmed! W3'v3 g0t l1v3s n0w, 4nd 1'm 4 buz1n3ss Pwnz0r! -Reformed Freak Proprieter
Seek. Find. Rularuu.
Target. Destroy. Rularuu.
Go. Hunt. Kill Skuls. Rularuu.
I've been here since Beta and don't post very often (although I read the forums regularly and have 3 accounts) and I have to say after 2 experiences with Safeguard missions they need to be re-worked for squishees. I guarantee no one would get through solo with my fire/kin controller (and no it isn't a gimped build AND it is on heroic). The aforementioned seeing through stealth is insane, the main mission timer start is inconsistant and the overall level and number of mobs is too great for any squishy to handle even with a full tray of insp. I for one love a challenge but also don't like beating my head against the wall (it gets real messy after a bit). I think I will be part of the...well until now...silent majority and just refuse to play the safeguard missions until they are re-worked. I did it with Adreneline Boost on my main (disorient after AB...huh???) and I unfortunately have to do it here to. Although I would like to extend my thanks to the developers for giving more content, it just needs to be re-worked to be of value to all players imo.
Nurse (yes, just Nurse and if anyone gives me a "Helllllooo Nurse", I will find your main and smack them down...I have friends... 
)
Personally, I love Safeguard missions. They're the perfect hero counterpart to Mayhem missions. They require you to be all over the place and are really fun solo. They tend to be really confusing in groups though, teams get split up and lots of people die.
My other complaint is with the villain Shock Treatment. Is she supposed to sap your endurance to nothing every couple of seconds? She seemed incredibly over powered. Also the lower level martial arts villain, his name escapes me, but his Cobra Strike power disoriented me for over an entire minute through my Integration as a lieutenant. Is this by design? Again, seems way too powerful. Oh, as a side note, both of these bosses were equal level. I'm all about a challenge, but these last two bosses were a bit over the top.
Regards,
Captain Head Explody
Here's my take on the problems and some solutions as I see them.
1. PROBLEM: No new character/player guidance=
Unlike villains who get directed to the next island after they have exhausted their missions on Mercy, nwe players get no such direction to Kings Row.
SOLUTION: When a hero gets to level 5, have the game throw up a prompt saying they have the option to head to Kings Row to get their radio.
2. PROBLEM: Robbery Timing System=
Villain version gives 15 minutes solid for the robbery of the bank to be awarded the temp power plus do everything else in the mission. Heroes can fail and be kicked out of the mission in a matter of minutes for not preventing the bank robbery.
Solution: Have the 15 minute timer start the same as villains right when one enters the mission. Instead of having the villains escaping completely to their exit point have it to where a message comes up they've escaped but you can follow them to their "Hideout".
This would prompt for a side mission clickable from their escape point. Any number of hide/base maps could be selected for this. The challenge would be that the hero(es) would have to arrest alot more enemies to get back the money taken. This of course would eat the time down but it would give equal consideration of time found on the villain version of the mission.
3. PROBLEM: Villain perception range/boost=
Their AI makes it really tough to complete or even move around the map.
SOLUTION: Drop the perception range/boost down to normal levels.
4. PROBLEM: : Weapon's Deal and Store Heist rewards for only one person=
This on the villain side as well never seemed fair. Only one person can get the rewards and that doesn't encourage the others to want to participate in the side mission or WORSE that everyone rushes to be the first to click the weapon's rack for the temp power OR similar for the DO with the rescues.
SOLUTION: Have it reward for everyone at the same time the side mission time is awarded. This would change a little bit the dynamics of the Heist mission though and so the Heist would/should award the time after the vault is prevented from being blown and all the hostages are rescued.
5. PROBLEM: "Mission Complete EXIT" message=
This causes untold numbers of people to exit the mission not having known about the other things in the mission remaining to do OR by force of habit doing so on any mission. Its been a problem as well long before on villains side.
SOLUTION: Two things can be done to solve this problem. One is to throw up a message screen explaining about staying in to complete the rest of the mission's activities. An ok to click as well would help to make them stop and think about their next plan of action.
Another would be for only mayhem/safeguards of course and not the other mission types: Clicking the exit button (or truck door). Would throw up a message mentioning all the things to do in the mission etc and an ok to click or a cancel to click.
6. PROBLEM: Rez'd folks at the mission door click and leave by accident=
Since the gurney is so close to the Truck's door for exiting the mission that I've seen more than one person accidently exit the mission from there.
SOLUTION: Move the gurney a bit more away or to the side more from there the Truck is so that this has much less of a chance to happen than is currently going on.
Also, the ok clicking prompt mentioned in #5 would also help this problem too.
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So that's my take on some of the problems though the developers may not see a few of them as problems perse.
-Storm Revenant-
Fires Within: Lvl 50 Fire/Kinetics Controller (Champion)
Steamed: Lvl 50 Thugs/Dark Miasma Mastermind (Freedom)
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1. PROBLEM: No new character/player guidance=
Unlike villains who get directed to the next island after they have exhausted their missions on Mercy, nwe players get no such direction to Kings Row.
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Well usually you get a contact in Kings Row by level 5 (this is the guy that normally sends you to the Hollows) so in that respect it is better than the Villain side where there is a chance you won't get told to go to the next area [I had this happen to me on my first villain, I did burkes missions (most of them) and leveled too fast - outgrowing the zone. I had to ask on Broadcast where to go because Burke just gave me 'I don't have anything for you right now' without telling me to move on (I didn't get the second contact in Mercy so I think that was the problem)]
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5. PROBLEM: "Mission Complete EXIT" message=
This causes untold numbers of people to exit the mission not having known about the other things in the mission remaining to do OR by force of habit doing so on any mission. Its been a problem as well long before on villains side.
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This is a HUGE design problem with Safeguard missions as they stand.
When does it make sense for your character to leave a Mayhem? after you rob the bank
When does it make sense for your character to leave a Safeguard? If you leave after saving the bank you're missing out on up to 5 side missions, but there's NO REASON TO STAY! The only justification your contact gives you is "do side missions to delay the REAL cops from showing up!" How heroic is that?
Mayhems start with a timer, and it makes sense for villains to do side missions to cause distractions and extend that timer. The Safeguard timer seems tacked on with barely a nod toward thematic justification.
Safeguards should build toward something that makes you feel like you really ended the mission. Right now they're just 6 small missions that share a map, and all of them are pretty underwhelming.
Did the brickstown SGM last night again solo.
I will agree with those that say the tsoo spawns are not as one would expect or want them to be.
Only a few ancestor spirits don't think i saw any sorcerors. Tons of ink men that debuff speed and such.
Worst worst worst thing though is the boss/lt version of boss that throws fear. What are you supposed to do to that ?
My scrapper could take the beating with my occasional chance to hit back but i doubt a squishie could.
I still like SGMs though and i still think they're overall fairly easy if you want them to be and really tough if you want that, oh and fun.
Complaints on safeguard and mayhem
1. Longbow, etc can see through ANY stealth. They can see you around corners, through walls, etc.
2. They will run right to you, ignoring pets, etc.
3. If that doesn't work the AI will attempt to MOB you with a huge wave of attackers that see you no matter if you hide. Again ignoring your pets.
Pardon me for saying so, but this is a POOR way to use mobs to kill the player. Wheres the strategy? We try to use strategy on them, but they *cough* cheat.
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Complaints on safeguard and mayhem
1. Longbow, etc can see through ANY stealth. They can see you around corners, through walls, etc.
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That's entirely different. The Longbow in mayhem missions are ambushes - ambushes, of any sort, have ALWAYS worked that way, and this has been stated (I believe) as being by design so the ambushes can know where to run in the first place. It is completely unrelated to the issue of safeguard street spawns having increased perception.
I'm not sure if this has been said, but I would like for both the mayhem and safeguard mission complete temporary powers to be obtainable more then once. The ones that have a 'logged in time' end up going away before you can use them more then a few times, especially if you're on a RP server and aren't spending all of your time grinding levels.
I know being able to get them any time is a bit much, but why not have a timer that is something like 'once the temp has been used up, x number of hours later you can earn a new one'. I love the jetpack and jump pack and such, but I'd love to be able to keep them permenantly as well.(maybe via the invention system?) 
I said this when they were on Test. The Safeguard missons are not designed for most AT's and they do not Scale down in difficulty because the Bosses are generally overpowered. I am sure some teams would have fun, but when set to Heroic they should be solo-able by any AT. It's nice to have a team, but teams are not always available.
Also, what is an Lt level Boss doing with Powersurge? Don't ya think that makes Ice Mystral an Elite Boss? "Oh yes, ha-ha, didn't mention that we give the Lt. Brute virtual god-mode if you come close to beating it after making three trips to the hospital. Guess you should have picked Regeneration for your Blaster."
I thought the point of having a Test server was keeping unplayable content off the Live servers.
Quixotik
"I did not say this. I am not here." -Guild Navigator
Also, what is an Lt level Boss doing with Powersurge?
The same thing Minion level 7th Generation Paragon Protectors are doing with old-school MoG....
Mobs with teir-9 defenses are not new.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
Thus far, my safeguard experience is soloing Brickstown, doing Brickstown with a team of 8 and exemping down to do Atlas Park on a team of 6.
Soloing Brickstown: relatively easy. Provided I stayed superleaping above the street mobs, I could do the side missions and stop the bank robbery no problem.
Teaming on Brickstown: Stopped the bank robbery pretty easily (although fighting the AV Ice Mistral was a close thing at times) but getting to the side missions / stopping vandals was City of Debt. Yes, a lack of coordination on the team probably didn't help, but with each team member aggroing multiple mobs as they rushed to reach the vandals (at least in part due to the increased range of AI perception) it became a situation of multiple deaths once we left the bank. I couldn't convince people to hang around to complete all the side missions because most players are chronically scared of debt and quit out after dying twice.
Teaming Atlas Park - similar experience to Brickstown, with the team splitting up multiple times to throw off aggro on their way to objectives (which in turn generated more aggro...). Lots of deaths, but players stuck it out and stopped the bank robbery and completed all the side missions.
Overview: I have found these safeguards to be pretty fun. However, the changed AI behaviour requires a new playing tactic that doesn't mesh with how you would normally play CoH/V. In normal play, you can take or leave the "street spawn" mobs on your way to a greater objective. Within safeguard missions, the street mobs won't let you ignore them due to their increased range of perception. Now, getting to the bank is relatively easy to do, but it's when everyone rushes to take on the vandals that the team splits up and things get messy.
I believe that if players adopted a turtle tactic (ie slow and steady, fighting your way through the street) in order to get to the vandal hotspot, most would be okay. However, most PUGs aren't that disciplined and end up getting shredded on the way (or sandwiched between the vandals and the street mobs in the area).
Alternatively, toning down the perception of mobs will also make these missions less chaotic.
No, true complains BUT can you please use the "streetcrime_set" badge art, that has been on record as being in the pigg files, as the artwork for the accolade that is gained from gaining all Safeguard badges. Seems quite fitting. As seen at the bottom of this page... CLICK ME
@artphobia
To the best dev team ever: I enjoyed meeting you all at the Summits and best of luck in all your future endeavors.
Safeguards need to be rebuilt to be more like Mayhem. If this was all said before please forgive but this just struck me and I wanted to post before I forgot.
Your contact needs to present it as such: "We've got word there's a large disturbance in <city zone> in one of the neighborhoods. In addition to the bank there are several other businesses in the area which could be potential targets. To be honest we're not sure what they're game is. We're going to erect an emergency forcefield in the area once you're in to try and contain them. We're also dispatching the PPD to the area but it will take them at least 15 minutes to scramble an assault team. Get in there and watch for any disturbances. Do what you can to hold them off until the PPD arrive. Who knows, maybe you'll get the situation under control and we won't even need to dispatch the PPD. Good luck!"
And change it so that the bank heist doesn't happen until at least 5 minutes into the mission and/or after at least one side mission is completed. After all, one of the ideas behind the side missions in mayhems is creating a diversion. Yet in safeguard they happen AFTER the bank is robbed. They should 'lure' us away from the bank allowing Arachnos to get in and get to work robbing it. Then THE BANK IS BEING ROBBED! should come up on screen so you can scramble to the bank to stop it.
After that your motivation to stick around is to try and do your job as a hero and help clean up the mess.
Also, eliminate the timer. There is no reason for it. Either you stop the bank robbery or you don't. The timer is there because it's the hero version of a mayhem, not because it makes sense. OR make it a straight 15 minute timer. No up, no down. After 15 minutes the PPD are scrambled, arrive and take control of the scene, which by rights is their job.
3 simple changes, one in the mission text (which will fit better conceptually and not make it feel like you're stopping the PPD from showing up by sticking around), one as far as timing in the mission (when the robbery actually occurs) and lastly eliminating the timer will make a huge difference in the feel of SafeGuard missions.
As far as the timer goes the best solution would be adding a timer to each sub-mission. If you don't get there and stop it in x amount of time the villains succeed. Beyond that or the 15 minutes to scramble timer, there's not reason to have one in a SafeGuard.
After all I can completely EMPTY (Mobs/destroyable objects) in mayhem missions with 30 minutes to spare. There's no reason for a main mission timer in safeguard missions.
I just hope the devs can see our points on some of these.
Caesar et al., my empath has two single target ranged attacks (plus Sands of Mu), one snipe, and two aoe dot's. What I usually do is get to the door of the bank as fast as I can. The map is covered with Malta that have no problems seeing through any invisibility, and their aggro range and attack range is *tremendous.* Pop a bunch of purple/orange, yellow, and red inspirations, and jump inside.
The general spawn is three minions in the inner bank, so I immediately immob. them and start dot-ing. Somewhere in there is a lieutenant--usually hiding. Once I find them, I start single-target attacks on them, and keep aoe/immob. on the mob. I just keep whittling and waiting--because I can't defeat these guys any faster. Company will be there soon.
Once the robber and his one or two cronies run into *that* mess, I eat the rest of my inspirations, fire eye of the magus, and then try and keep all seven+ guys' attention on me. Usually by now someone has snuck out the door and I get an instant "mission failed" (isn't there supposed to be a dash to the getaway vehicle?)--or the villain has me dead by then.
If I die, they scatter all over the map and I can't find any of them. :P I mean--I have a high-level regen scrapper, so I can totally see him *creaming* all of these guys with no problem at all. But balance-wise, it's nearly impossible for my defender. These should be tweaked a bit, or the badge credit (for folks who care) should be SHARED.
As for me, I'm 1 for 5 on safeguards.
j
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.