Official Thread: Safeguard Missions
By
1tonweasel,
Posted on: 2006-11-14 21:05 in Developers' Corner
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I add my name to this list of people who have done these flawed safeguards.
For being too high for a zone, we have to exemplar to a lower team but when there is absolutely no credit for badges in side missions, why bother.
Only got credit for two badges: Villain Disruptor & PPD Deputy
That means the other 4 are broken. Stupid if only one person on a team gets all the credit.
There should've been implemented the same auto-exemplaring for Safeguards as there is for PvP zones. Maybe then we'd all get credit.
Multiple side missions popping up at the same time is also ridiculous.
Enemy set to Invincible power while you are Heroic is crazy.
This stuff went thru the Testing Room virtually untested I can see. Too many flaws with it. 
Only thing everyone can get is the exploration badge. Other badges are bogus right now. Even in Mayhem missions, I was able to get progress on my badges.
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No. No it didn't. We tested it over and over on the training room and gave the exact feedback you're seeing in this thread. Some of the feedback was listened to (like losing time for objects being destroyed when you had no chance in hell of stopping that) but most of it was ignored (like everything in this thread).
So don't go blaming the testers. WE tested it and reported our findings. The developers chose to ignore some of that for whatever reason and thus you have the gigantic flop that is Safeguard missions.
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"Once the avalanche has started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote" -Kosh
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No. No it didn't. We tested it over and over on the training room and gave the exact feedback you're seeing in this thread. Some of the feedback was listened to (like losing time for objects being destroyed when you had no chance in hell of stopping that) but most of it was ignored (like everything in this thread).
So don't go blaming the testers. WE tested it and reported our findings. The developers chose to ignore some of that for whatever reason and thus you have the gigantic flop that is Safeguard missions.
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Yeah ultimately it falls down to what they want not us and it sure wasn't decent safeguard missions.
If they were quite aware of the bugs in Issue 8, I have no idea why they released it.
Even the veteran rewards were so-so. Basically I guess they just wanted to clear off their workbench for the Holiday stuff so they shoved it on us literally.
With the I9 hype/dooooooooom starting up, it's probably worth revisiting things here. Okay devs - you tried. We get it. And y'know what? Safeguards aren't that bad, after you made a few tweaks in the process. The problem is, there's still a lot wrong with them and while mayhems are a blast, most safeguards are a giant pain in the butt and full of senseless, stupid problems. To summarize this thread and the countless others that have popped up:
1) The aggro ranges and ultra-high perception of street mobs. What was done here is completely ridiculous. Without warning, regular mobs suddenly aggro from a block away and see through all forms of concealment. With no indication of a reason, this is senseless. It also is a serious imbalance to things - street mobs attacking destroyable objects even before players can see them, being unable to move around without aggroing everything (such that a player who respawns is unable to rejoin the group, or that splitting up to try and combat the vandals while doing a side mission is often suicidal), and fights often involve multiple - sometimes as many as four or five - spawns at once. This is not a challenge. This is senseless and one of the greatest reasons why Safeguards are disliked - mobs that break the 'rules' without warning for no good reason is not fun in any interpretation of the word.
2) The anti-climactic and counter-intuitive nature of the entire thing. I'll grant you, this was probably something that couldn't just be messed with before I8's release due to the intensive nature, but now that it's out - it needs to be addressed. The entire point of the Safeguard is to stop the robbery.. which you do in the first five minutes, often in the first two or three. After that, there's the completely arbitrary time limit to perform side missions that serve no purpose other than to give you more time to do more side missions.
Additionally, the process is again counter-intuitive. The mission doesn't 'begin' until after the exit button shows up - people leave not realizing there's more, the mission being supposedly over means that you can't invite more along or re-invite somebody who's lost connection, and a host of other problems. The basic framework has significant flaws in it as it stands.
3) The initial bank run also has several problems. For starters, since the timer starts the moment the first person zones in, it causes tons of problems for teams. One person zoning slowly pitches the whole thing into disarray. Sidekicks are also a problem. As there is no real option but to bumrush the bank and the street mobs have their ridiculous aggro range, sidekicks are frequently thrown in over their heads - they draw aggro from a half-dozen or so spawns as they travel and if their mentor goes out of range for more than a moment.. splat. Then they have no method of getting back to the team, either, save running the gauntlet of super-perception mobs.
The robbers themselves are also a problem. A single minon escaping means instant failure - despite problems with them frequently disappearing or getting lost in geometry. Several of the named bosses use ridiculously cheap tactics - Shock Treatment's use of Power Surge and then running (despite outright statements that they shouldn't do that) and Savage Siren's tendency to use Terrify and then walk away have both earned their share of ire. There's also the problem of AVs and the bank doors - namely that despite the statements that we've got 'about five minutes' to get to the bank and stop the robbery, an AV being present can usually knock down the door in under thirty seconds, massively skewing the entire encounter.
4) There are other miscellaneous problems as well - chief among these are the problems of the sidemission badges only giving credit to one person instead of the team, and the debate of how marginal the rewards of the Safeguard are. For the most part, actually doing the Safeguard is considerably higher risk (given the time limit, the aggro range of mobs, the possible presence of an AV, etc) than the police band missions that lead up to it, but for marginally better (if even better at all!) rewards. The sidemissions especally play into this - for all the work of scrambling around to find, reach and complete the side missions, you really don't recieve any better reward than you would for exiting, picking up a police band mission and doing that in a similar amount of time for less effort.
What it comes down to is that Safeguards have a lot of potential. As it stands, they're okay - just barely okay. They fail to live up to what they could be, and primarily because of issues that could be addressed relatively easily. We all want them to succeed and live up to that potential.
Is there any way to tell who has the record for most time spent in the various safeguard/mayhem missions? I tried an info kiosk but it didn't have that listed. If there isn't, that would be a great addition to the listings.
No, there is no way to tell that.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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Is there any way to tell who has the record for most time spent in the various safeguard/mayhem missions? I tried an info kiosk but it didn't have that listed. If there isn't, that would be a great addition to the listings.
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People still use the info kisoks?
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"Once the avalanche has started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote" -Kosh
It seems to me as if different characters have completely different experiences with Safeguard Missions.
I recently soloed the Brickstown one a couple of times with my (L39 at the time) Tanker, and not one of those times did I have any of the usual problems people have with them.
SG Mish #1:
Super Jumped over most of the buildings directly to the bank door. No aggro, no problems. Right as I reached the door, got the "Bank is being robbed" message.
Went in, ran into Hollow Point and his partner LITERALLY standing right next to the door- not on their way out, but on their way IN. They immediately aggroed (not surprising as I was like a foot away from them), and I beat the crap out of them. Took out the rest of the robbers with no problem. Cleared out the vandals and side missions with no difficulty.
SG Mish #2:
Same tactics as before, SJ'd right to the bank door. Went in, found Savage Siren just barely entering the lobby and expected to be spammed to death by Terror moves. Instead, I blindsided her in the back of the head with a Knockout Blow, and beat the crap out of her before she could regain her senses and launch a single attack. Cleared out the lobby, found her partner just staring at the vault door like a moron, wondering what was taking Siren so long.
Cleared out all the vandals and most of the side missions without a hitch, but had a little trouble with the jailbreak. Number one, every time I rescued a PPD Shell, it would immediately keel over from the explosion of the Nemesis Warhulk guarding it, leaving me with no backup for the coming battle. Found Shock Therapy busting out downstairs; beat up her buddies, beat up her most of the way, then she suddenly turned into something resembling DeathSurge, and was invulnerable for several minutes before I could finish her off.
Out of both, the only real problem I had was with the PPD in the breakout mission. The hostages should NOT be guarded by something that explodes when you kill it; that's just unreasonable.
While I did recieve long-range aggro from many of the mobs, for the most part they only attacked me once or twice before completely ignoring me and going off to destroy random objects instead.
The only major problem I can find is the following:
The layout is indeed anti-climactic. In Mayhem missions, the PPD spawns, side missions, and random devastation are all for the sole purpose of earning necessary time to complete the Bank Robbery. Granted, I usually end up with an entire half-hour of time more than I actually need, but at least I feel like I might actually need it for something. In Safeguard missions, the main part of the mission comes first; once completed, there's no real point to the side missions and vandal spawns. Why do you need extra time to complete missions that only earn you extra time? The fix should be relatively simple:
-Earn the extra time from vandals and side missions BEFORE the bank starts being robbed. Have the actual robbery only take place a set period of time into the mission. If the robbers get away, make it so you can confront them in their hideout or something instead of automatically getting a total mission failure. You can only fail a Mayhem if time runs out before you complete the main objective; Safeguards should be the same way. If you fail to get the money back before time runs out, THEN you fail. It would add to the fun if you had to find clues leading to the robbers' hideout, like finding a set number of glowies or something, or finding a mob (or mobs) that holds the key(s) to the hideout so you can get in. That would be something worth earning extra time for.
They should also award 30 seconds of time for each non-side-mission-related mob you defeat, like the PPD spawns in Mayhems.
Two wrongs don't make a right. However, three rights make a left.
L00k, w3'r3 r3f0rmed! W3'v3 g0t l1v3s n0w, 4nd 1'm 4 buz1n3ss Pwnz0r! -Reformed Freak Proprieter
Seek. Find. Rularuu.
Target. Destroy. Rularuu.
Go. Hunt. Kill Skuls. Rularuu.
One of the people in my SG - an Ill/Emp controller - has several times had an issue where they get the 'Stop the Arson!' side mission, defuse a bomb, then use Heal Aura, and are booted out of the mission.
Some of the bank layouts are very easy to have the robbers walk past you, which is frustrating.
It seems as though the bank robbery is triggered by proximity. Could that be changed to be triggered by the first person walking into the bank instead, and make that change apparent? That way people wouldn't panic so much about needing to run -past- numerous mobs to get to the bank 'right away' and getting mowed down by Sappers and such.
For low damage characters, I have to pack lots of reds in order to defeat the door guards in a bank before being tackled by the robbers. That makes it a double hit of difficulty, because now I have to fight the robbers while being attacked by the door guards that I was still whittling. Usually I can manage that, but then again, I usually have multiple 6-slotted attacks on my Defenders.
I like seeing Terrorize, but i'll have to admit that the sight of an SR Scrapper running Tactics cowering with six Terrorize icons on his bar is a bit bothersome. My Controller would love to be able to pump out AOE fear powers that fast. This is actually a design issue - I don't mind heroes having a weakness per se, but I would rather they not have the same weakness. One does not prepare to fight the entire JLA by putting on a Kryptonite suit, because that would only stop one person. However, CoX seems lately to like to give everything psi damage and Fear because virtually nobody is resistant to that.
A no attack "Group-Friendly" Defender is like a "Team Friendly" basketball player who won't dribble, run, or shoot, under any circumstances. "I'm a PASSER."
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to Large_Man, you do get bonus time for spawns in a Safeguard..defeat the "Villians causing Mayhem" and get another 1:30 like in Mayhem mission.
to JusticeZero, the robbery is triggered by either 5 minutes passing or someone getting close to the bank. that just means they're heading down to the vault, not actually leaving the bank yet. the "stop the robbers from getting away" message means they are com ing up from the vault.
After playing a few safeguards and mayhems I have to say the safeguard missions are much more difficult and much less fun. I have more than once been failed out of a safeguard within 2 minutes. The problem is usually with the villain that spaws. This happens most often on my blaster (doing them from 45-50) because he gets Critical Mass and between the villain and his helpers I usually can't stay alive long enough to do any damage while in the bank. And even outside the knockback and stun attacks usually allow the thief to get away before I can do anything to stop them. If I can get past the bank robbery the rest is usually doable though with jailbreaks I've never succeeded. It seems there's always exploding mobs that will take out my hero causing the side mission to 'fail' even when the mob that explodes is the last one to deal with (especially when dealing with embalmed). Safeguards would be much more worthwhile if they weren't so easily failed due to random villain spawns and the large clusters you get outsie and inside the bank (usually 2 spawns of 'guards' outside, and a spawn or two of guards just inside plus the robbery team spawn, and that's on heroic/solo). I've not had a chance to try the mid-level safeguards yet, just AP, KR, FF, and PI.
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to Large_Man, you do get bonus time for spawns in a Safeguard..defeat the "Villians causing Mayhem" and get another 1:30 like in Mayhem mission.
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You obviously misunderstood my post. I was not talking about the Vandals, I was talking about the regular mobs. In mayhems, there are no Vandals, only regular mobs of PPD (and occasional Longbow ambushes), and you get 30 seconds every time you defeat one of them(referred to ingame as "resisting arrest"). I was saying that they should award the same in Safeguards for generic enemy spawns unrelated to Vandals, side missions, or the robbery itself (call it like "arrest" or something).
In Mayhems, it is fairly easy to accumulate over a half-hour's worth of time before even hitting the side missions. However in Safeguards I often find myself running low on time.
I know I already said that the extra time in Safeguards was somewhat redundant, but hell, I'm a badge wh0re, so I need as much time as I can get.
Two wrongs don't make a right. However, three rights make a left.
L00k, w3'r3 r3f0rmed! W3'v3 g0t l1v3s n0w, 4nd 1'm 4 buz1n3ss Pwnz0r! -Reformed Freak Proprieter
Seek. Find. Rularuu.
Target. Destroy. Rularuu.
Go. Hunt. Kill Skuls. Rularuu.
Notice there hasn't been any red name responding to this even though Ravenstorm wrote the strategy for this.
I ran into unexpected (to me, at least) team behavior in some recent Safeguard missions, in that all of the rest of the team exited the mission right after stopping the bank robbery, without comment, with no attempt to take advantage of any side missions or the relatively target rich environment in the copious remaining time available. Cherry picking.
Could be they've got the badges already. Could be they just want to go do other stuff for more mission bonuses (more XP over time.) Could be they just don't care about the second half. Could be they didn't know. Could be lots of things.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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Same thing happend to me the other day. Stop the robbers, exit. Seems like we did a few safeguards so maybe it was just for the temp powers, or like you say quick XP. We did quite a few mishes that night so we were really rolling along...
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Could be they've got the badges already. Could be they just want to go do other stuff for more mission bonuses (more XP over time.) Could be they just don't care about the second half. Could be they didn't know. Could be lots of things.
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You know i cant for the life of me complete one of these mission with my earth controller....i dont know what it is...but its like the villains always resist the powers i have and escape....
I guess its just not something to try when all you have is damage over time abilities that do 1 damage every tick and you most powerful attack is a single target hold that consumes alot of energy for 15 damage.
For me....I try to skip these if i can....the extra timer thing at the end is an unwanted stress that makes it so i cant explore and have any fun with my other characters...and the fact i cant do it with an Earth/Forcefield controller....makes it even more unfun.
The only good thing is that i can still get a contact if i i am successful or not.
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I ran into unexpected (to me, at least) team behavior in some recent Safeguard missions, in that all of the rest of the team exited the mission right after stopping the bank robbery, without comment, with no attempt to take advantage of any side missions or the relatively target rich environment in the copious remaining time available. Cherry picking.
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Exactly what I knew was going to happen when people find out there's no full team credit towards any of the badges in the side missions.
Only the person who clicks the last object or defeats the main villain gets the credit.
The thing that the devs left us to do is go after the temp power and the exploration badge. The side missions have no reward except for that one lucky individual.
They (Devs) have made it a lottery.
Has anybody else seen this? Doing a PI safeguard mission, after the bank, I was doing the jail break side mission, completed that part and was checking what else was in the jail cells. One of the cells contained a Master Illusionist, she cast the Phantasm outside the cell and while I was fighting that, she used her version of phase shift and exited the jail cell. I am not sure whats broke here, the fact that the version of phase shift will not let me exit a jail or that the MI can.
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I probably had the least fun playing a safeguard mission today. As an empath that does not attack, I have stealth and superspeed. Between the long aggro range attacking through stealth, and tanks not being able to hold aggro very well, this was just rediculous. It's actually the closest I have been to quitting the game. Funny how some little things can make the mission just outright horrible.
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(yeah, I know I'm responding to a 3 month old post)
I took my Emp/Psi into one of these, where she was sidekicked with some mid-high level 30's (she was level 30 at the time). I must have died at least six times in the mission. I would die during combat, where Arachnos AoE's would get me (this was the TI mission). I'd die on my way to side missions, where the team would fly/jump/run off and I'd have to port, but didn't do so highly enough to not attract attention (despite being sk'd, these were still purple to me, and easily did me in). This was even worse trying to get back from the hospital - I had no coverage, and often was out of SK range. Heck, near the end of the mission I died and found that the hospital area had been completely overrun by Tsoo, and I promptly died again!
Really, the only benefits to doing these seem to be the badges and the temp powers. I can see trying them selectively (like on a low-level toon of mine who may be built w/o travel powers, so the temp travel powers would be handy), but not on a regular basis.
Suggestions:
Super Packs Done Right
Influence Sink: IO Level Mod/Recrafting
Random Merit Rolls: Scale cost by Toon Level
All I can really say is "meh". Mayhems are more interesting really. Not that they are great either. I really wish something other than being a timed mission would determine auto-fail.
Total Focus is a hold, right?
Maybe there's a trick to these that I'm not getting, because while I've successfully completed the one Mayhem Mission I've tried villain-side, I haven't managed to finish any of the four SG Missions my heroes have done. The problem is that the second I get in the bank, the timer apparently starts going. I've tried heading straight for the vault and just dealing with the guys I see; both ways, I end up going immediately to "The robbers are getting away!" So I go outside, and I can't *find* the robbers, and then I get kicked out.
I'd like these better if there was either more time or simpler, better-marked maps to cut down on the amount of time I spend getting lost in the maze.
"No boom *today*. Boom tomorrow. There's always boom tomorrow."
--Lt. Commander Susan Ivanova
I think that "the robbers are getting away" just means that they've busted the vault open, which should give you time to block them from getting to the only outside door.
Yea, if you go right to the bank, and take everyone out on the way in through the bank, you'll do fine. I've only done 5, but we completed them all. Just dont let them out. You should see the robbers, they actually have moneybags. After you are done with the bank, then take out the other objectives.
safeguards arent auto fail because of a timer
you fail a safeguard if one of the robbers reaches the getaway vehicle
stop them at the bank and youll win every time
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
SG Bugs
1. Was on a SG mish, can't recall which. Sidemish was stop the breakout. Went downstairs in the jail. KB'ed one of the opponents through the door into a cell. Since heroes can't break down the door, that was it for that mish.
2. PI Safeguard over this past weekend. Aggroed and Damaged, Aggroed and Undamaged and non-Aggroed villains were "disappearing off the map. Similar to the bug when they would all teleport to the mish door. if you had "target lock" on a bad guy when he disappeared, you could see from the targetting reticle that the villain went downward and far away. Couldn't find the villains anywhere in the map.