Do dominators suck like people say they do?
By
Aleshanee_NA,
Posted on: 2006-07-05 13:59 in Dominators
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Dominators give up a bit of control for some good direct damage attacks that Controllers would give their left mouse button for.
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This may have been addressed in this thread already but there are just too many posts for me to sort through here at work. But the one thing I will say Positron is that this statement just doesn't feel right to me in pvp. I have played with Dominator attacks in PvP before I finally deleted him and they just don't seem to be that much better than what a controller does with propel +containment, spectral wounds +containment (which is also psi damage), or epic blasts + containment. These things I just listed can be VERY damaging and I would almost hesitate to say they outdamage Dom secondaries. (On a situational basis of course but still..)
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There are just a few that beleive that only plant/ does any good as a dominator.
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Certainly nothing wrong with my fire/fire dominator once he got into the 30s.
Plant has the easiest trip to 30. Fire and gravity are not so easy.
That's why a few of us keep pushing this suggestion: make the other powersets as fun / strong / less-prone-to-bad-build-choices as plant in the early / mid game.
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My issues with Doms are the slow start for the first 20-30 levels and the weak team contribution for a class whose PRIMARY is support. And, as much as I like the change, it doesn't seem to fix that at all.
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I agree with this, but you mentioned in another post, I believe, that you could play your Dominator "effectively" on a team with Domination up or without it. Do you feel that doms can contribute their fair share on a team if played properly, or did I misunderstand what you were saying?
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I can play a Dominator effectively on a team. Whether Domination is up or not, I sucessfully fulfill my team role of ranged crowd control with damage. There's no question that those two things I do contribute to the team's success. But I do so in "Jekyll" mode. My "Hyde" mode doesn't help me contribute to a team better for reasond discussed above.
So, let's look at the secondary question. Can my Dom contribute his fair share to a team?
Well, I think that Controls and Debuffs are both team support sets. And, by the logic of the game, if my PRIMARY is team support, I should provde MORE team support than someone whose SECONDARY is support. And I just don't feel that's true. I can contribute significnantly more to my team's success as a Corruptor than a Dominator. (Though the differntial is MUCH stronger in the early game than the late game.)
And that doesn't strike me as a "fair share" given that my PRIMARY is support and the Corruptor's SECONDARY is support.
I'm sounding more negative on Doms than I feel here, but I guess sometimes the facts just plain sound bad. I think Doms are behind in their ability to provide team support and their capabilities in the early game.
And, as "fun" as I see this change being, I don't see that it addresses that issue.
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Looking back at a few pages, when did everyone start agreeing that Dominators are crappy outside of Domination? It's stil not true folks.
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Lemme guess, Plant/ Dom?
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I play 3 doms regularly plant/thorns, ice/fire, and grav/energy: not one is "crappy outside of domination".
Spines/ D A lvl 50 Scrap, stone/wm lvl 50 tank, Kat/reg lvl 50 Scrap
Grav/Kin lvl 50 Cont, Fire/Enegry lvl 50 Blast
Warshade lvl 50, PB lvl 39, nightwidow lvl 50, crab lvl 42
plant/thorns lvl 50 dom, ice/fire lvl 40 dom, grav/nrg lvl 41 dom
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Looking back at a few pages, when did everyone start agreeing that Dominators are crappy outside of Domination? It's stil not true folks.
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Lemme guess, Plant/ Dom?
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I play 3 doms regularly plant/thorns, ice/fire, and grav/energy: not one is "crappy outside of domination".
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The only time when I think a Dom is "crappy outside of Domination" is in a multiple AV fight (Recluse Strike Force) or against a good team with mez buffs in PvP.
I still think Dom damage and/or End usage outside of Domination needs to be addressed, but I would hardly call Doms 'crappy' because of it. People are blowing this way outta proportion IMHO.
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I can play a Dominator effectively on a team. Whether Domination is up or not, I sucessfully fulfill my team role of ranged crowd control with damage. There's no question that those two things I do contribute to the team's success. But I do so in "Jekyll" mode. My "Hyde" mode doesn't help me contribute to a team better for reasond discussed above.
So, let's look at the secondary question. Can my Dom contribute his fair share to a team?
Well, I think that Controls and Debuffs are both team support sets. And, by the logic of the game, if my PRIMARY is team support, I should provde MORE team support than someone whose SECONDARY is support. And I just don't feel that's true. I can contribute significnantly more to my team's success as a Corruptor than a Dominator. (Though the differntial is MUCH stronger in the early game than the late game.)
And that doesn't strike me as a "fair share" given that my PRIMARY is support and the Corruptor's SECONDARY is support.
I'm sounding more negative on Doms than I feel here, but I guess sometimes the facts just plain sound bad. I think Doms are behind in their ability to provide team support and their capabilities in the early game.
And, as "fun" as I see this change being, I don't see that it addresses that issue.
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agreed.
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Looking back at a few pages, when did everyone start agreeing that Dominators are crappy outside of Domination? It's stil not true folks.
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Lemme guess, Plant/ Dom?
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I play 3 doms regularly plant/thorns, ice/fire, and grav/energy: not one is "crappy outside of domination".
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The only time when I think a Dom is "crappy outside of Domination" is in a multiple AV fight (Recluse Strike Force) or against a good team with mez buffs in PvP.
I still think Dom damage and/or End usage outside of Domination needs to be addressed, but I would hardly call Doms 'crappy' because of it. People are blowing this way outta proportion IMHO.
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Solo, I can fight, but it takes me a full run-through of my chain (Dominate, Bone Smasher, Total Focus, Power Bolt, Power Blast) to kill an even-level Longbow minion. It's safe, but slow.
On a small team, my heavy control is overkill for the number of mobs we face, and my low damage slows the team down compared to if they'd taken, say, a Brute or Corruptor instead.
On a larger team, my AoE controls don't recharge fast enough to keep entire spawns locked down, and like it's been said, if your team can get by a spawn without you, they don't need you at all.
Solo zone PvP, I'm free rep. I don't like it, but it's what ends up happening. I lack the damage to kill another player in a reasonable amount of time, and there's a worrysome number of things on hero side that can two-shot me.
Team zone PvP, I can do all right. People tend to carry a finite amount of Break Frees, and once you burn through that, you can start to see a real effect from a Dominator in the zone. Still an easy kill, though, and a single Empath entering the zone will pretty much shut you down.
Solo and team arena is the same problems as zone, only much worse because the maps are only 10 minutes long so Break Frees are a bigger issue, and because teams tend to be more balanced and work together better than in zones.
Don't get me wrong, I love my Dominator. The sheer insanity of taking a low damage/low HP character into melee range - and surviving - is incredibly fun, and I don't think I'll ever get tired of watching Total Focus go off. I just don't have any illusions about how much I contribute to a team.
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A good way to look at it is not by thinking the secondary is devoted to damage, but numerous attacks. The more the better imo. Heh, the only AT in CoX that comes close to having as many damage deaing powers as doms are blasters I believe. These attacks are what lead to domination or "(as someone has phrased it) "Ultra Uber God-Mode"... and whether or not we like it, this "jeckyl and hyde" playstlye is built into the design of the dominator.
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Access to more powers does not automatically translate into more damage. Most AT's can do as much or more damage with anywhere from one to four attacks than most Doms could with access to their entire secondary. And they can survive long enough to do it from whatever their optimal range may be. The idea that the entire nine-power secondary exists solely for the purpose of building Domination is absurd. If that truly is its intended purpose, then they need to change the name from "Assault" and lower the end costs so we can hammer them out with reckless abandon.]
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I'm not saying more powers = more damage and I wouldn't say our secondary is soley for building Domination. I'm saying more powers = quicker domination, and I'd say our secondary would be too strong when doubled in damage... if the damage is already great. This is the point when many will say "change that!! I want better damage w/o Domination!!" and it's where I say that expecting such is calling for the design of that AT to be changed whch IMO, is not due to an AT flaw, but simply expectations not being met. I personally slot for end redux and rech in my secondary, and sacrafice damage (it comes back to me via Domination) so that my attack chain can be long and inexpensive... allowing me to get domination very very often.
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It's at this realization that leads me to think that the biggest problem people face when playing doms is not the dom itself, but the expectations some players place on them.
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I don't see anything wrong with expecting Doms to be desireable for teams, on par (or at least closer to it) with other AT's soloing, decent in PvP, not an unbearable grind to for half of the total levels (and especially low-level), and not useless if we do take the trouble to level them to 40. I don't see anything wrong with wanting my Dom to be effective outside of Domination.
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Many and most Doms are desirible on teams... I have never once heard a complaint about Doms. "In-Game" Only on the boards do I hear such things. As far as being on par, well thats an opinion that have to disagree with. I feel just fine with what my dom can do on teams and solo...If you happen to feel as though your dominator is ineffective outside of Domination, well you have every right too, but there is little reason to feel that way unless its simply based on what you've experienced with another AT.
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Every tweak to Doms (except the minor increase to melee attacks) has been centered around domination: reduced recharge, pvp booost to domination, the soon to be mez protection during domination...
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Which is why very little improvement has been seen. They've already turned us into veritable golden gods while running Domination, and most of us still aren't happy.
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Again, this is about expectations.
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One shouldn't be searching for more defense, or better damage, or longer mez durations, or shorter recharge and lower end costs... One shouldn't be looking to completely change what the AT is designed for. One should only be foucused and concerned with getting to DOMINATION asap. Once any dom player learns to actually get domination up consisitently 3-5 times a mission... like we should be and are fully capable of, then most, if not all other concerns will cease to exisit if ya ask me.
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If you don't have Domination running you do sad damage and can't hold bosses (until 18 at earliest, and then there's the slow recharge rate of your AoE hold to contend with). If you die, you lost Domination. If you use it consistently and then don't have it in a situation you need it (especially with the upcoming Mez crutch), you're boned. I guess I just have a hard time accepting a class that operates on the two extreme ends of the wavelength and is down more than up.]
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Sorry but this to me reflects the posibility that you just haven't figured out what to do with your inhernet, the use of Domination differs greatly among us Dom players and it seems that nothing is working for you.
You "can't hold bosses" until level 18? Why not?
"If you die, you lost Domination" You lose alot of things when you die. Try not to die.
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I personally don't think of doms as being "dependant" on domination. I think of them as being constantly driven and determined to reach it at all costs.
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So you don't particularly consider yourself "dependant" on oxygen so much as determined to breath at all costs?
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Bad analogy.... oxygen is always availible...
A better one would be money. and yes... I'd reply that I am not dependant on it, but you'd better belive I'm driven to get it on a daily basis.
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"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
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Many and most Doms are desirible on teams... I have never once heard a complaint about Doms. "In-Game" Only on the boards do I hear such things. As far as being on par, well thats an opinion that have to disagree with. I feel just fine with what my dom can do on teams and solo...If you happen to feel as though your dominator is ineffective outside of Domination, well you have every right too, but there is little reason to feel that way unless its simply based on what you've experienced with another AT.
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I would not ever tell another player "You suck, we don't want you." I'm just not like that. However, if they're slowing us down, I'll notice it. I won't tell THEM that, since it's not their fault for rolling a Dominator, but I'll bring what I've seen to the boards and talk about it there where it's a balance discussion and not a personal attack.
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Solo, I can fight, but it takes me a full run-through of my chain (Dominate, Bone Smasher, Total Focus, Power Bolt, Power Blast) to kill an even-level Longbow minion. It's safe, but slow.
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That makes no sense to me. It doesn't take my mind/psi that many attacks to drop an orange-con ... and I don't have total focus.
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On a larger team, my AoE controls don't recharge fast enough to keep entire spawns locked down, and like it's been said, if your team can get by a spawn without you, they don't need you at all.
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If the team can get by a spawn after the corruptor has faceplanted, they don't need him at all either, right?
Locking down a decent number of mobs - even temporarily - with an AoE, then hitting priority targets makes a big difference in how difficult a fight is.
If I quote #'s, they're from City of Data.
Global: @Kazari
It was either Taunt or Purple Triangles of Doom. I stand by my decision!
-BackAlleyBrawler
I don't know what I'm doing differently as I can take out a +1 minion with just tf and bone smasher.
Spines/ D A lvl 50 Scrap, stone/wm lvl 50 tank, Kat/reg lvl 50 Scrap
Grav/Kin lvl 50 Cont, Fire/Enegry lvl 50 Blast
Warshade lvl 50, PB lvl 39, nightwidow lvl 50, crab lvl 42
plant/thorns lvl 50 dom, ice/fire lvl 40 dom, grav/nrg lvl 41 dom
I AM SO HAPPY RIGHT NOW, I JUST SLAPPED MY MOMMA !!!
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Solo, I can fight, but it takes me a full run-through of my chain (Dominate, Bone Smasher, Total Focus, Power Bolt, Power Blast) to kill an even-level Longbow minion. It's safe, but slow.
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I dont know your level or slotting, but from 40-43, 3 damage SOs, TF + power burst kills a minion, no hold required. A few mobs or +1 mobs may need to follow with brawl or any attack (ie. sliver left). Before 39 (for slotted power burst), TF + bonesmasher + any attack take down minions. Bolt/blast/brawl being interchangable as they are generally removing the last sliver of health.
However, TF has a 20 second recharge, so you may be throwing in attacking a minion in a spawn (where TF would only hit one of them), leaving an attack chain of bonesmasher, blast and bolt. After TF is used up for 20 seconds, it does take all three (and maybe another attack after that) to kill a minion.
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On a small team, my heavy control is overkill for the number of mobs we face, and my low damage slows the team down compared to if they'd taken, say, a Brute or Corruptor instead.
On a larger team, my AoE controls don't recharge fast enough to keep entire spawns locked down, and like it's been said, if your team can get by a spawn without you, they don't need you at all.
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Ice slick is great no matter the size of the team. Almost as good damage mitigation as a hold, up for every spawn, its a much appreciated power that ice doms bring. The AOE hold recharge is too long. It really needs to be up for each spawn, or close to it, and needs 2 acc enhancements and several hold duration enhancements to really make it worth while. This means AOE controls dont really get used much, and in fact, I skipped it on my fire/fire. AOE holds being up each spawn would make doms much better for teams.
AA is also ok for teams, same as HF. They have a good effect, but its hard to notice as its effects are real clear.
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Solo zone PvP, I'm free rep. I don't like it, but it's what ends up happening. I lack the damage to kill another player in a reasonable amount of time, and there's a worrysome number of things on hero side that can two-shot me.
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I find if I attack first, I tend to kill blasters, controllers, brutes and even tanks (if they arent ice tanks) in Warburg. I find doms do worse the lower the level of the PVP. Course, its nice when tanks dont carry BFs, but it helps a lot.
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Team zone PvP, I can do all right. People tend to carry a finite amount of Break Frees, and once you burn through that, you can start to see a real effect from a Dominator in the zone. Still an easy kill, though, and a single Empath entering the zone will pretty much shut you down.
Solo and team arena is the same problems as zone, only much worse because the maps are only 10 minutes long so Break Frees are a bigger issue, and because teams tend to be more balanced and work together better than in zones.
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The tough part is if you die one time, you lost domination, the pet, and any long recharge powers still arent recharged. I find dying once leads to many deaths if Im not careful.
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Don't get me wrong, I love my Dominator. The sheer insanity of taking a low damage/low HP character into melee range - and surviving - is incredibly fun, and I don't think I'll ever get tired of watching Total Focus go off. I just don't have any illusions about how much I contribute to a team.
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You may be being a little harsh on your self too. Now, I think considering the AOE nature of debuffs and the ST nature of holds, then naturally in LRSF doms are much less than another corruptor, but in most missions the presence of a dom allows a corruptor to do a lot more fighting in place of healing and debuffing, as well as bringing decent damage.
I think the places doms have real trouble are where fixes to remove holds have been shoehorned in (Avs having triangles and BFs for PVP). So, to me, IMO, doms need a boost in those two situations, vs triangles and in PVP. This change seems to be a PVP boost, not really a team boost.
I hope the next boost will make doms better in teams. As I soon will be 45+ and can participate in a Lord Recluse SF, I would like to be able to contribute as much or more than another AT (which I doubt without some changes).
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Around the end of April, I started a Fire/Energy Dominator on Justice. I'm level 37 now.
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OK, who is PL'ing Posi?!?!?!? Dude, go back to work before the boss finds out! 
That is his work! Ah to be a game developer/designer
Spines/ D A lvl 50 Scrap, stone/wm lvl 50 tank, Kat/reg lvl 50 Scrap
Grav/Kin lvl 50 Cont, Fire/Enegry lvl 50 Blast
Warshade lvl 50, PB lvl 39, nightwidow lvl 50, crab lvl 42
plant/thorns lvl 50 dom, ice/fire lvl 40 dom, grav/nrg lvl 41 dom
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Many and most Doms are desirible on teams... I have never once heard a complaint about Doms. "In-Game" Only on the boards do I hear such things. As far as being on par, well thats an opinion that have to disagree with. I feel just fine with what my dom can do on teams and solo...If you happen to feel as though your dominator is ineffective outside of Domination, well you have every right too, but there is little reason to feel that way unless its simply based on what you've experienced with another AT.
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I would not ever tell another player "You suck, we don't want you." I'm just not like that. However, if they're slowing us down, I'll notice it. I won't tell THEM that, since it's not their fault for rolling a Dominator, but I'll bring what I've seen to the boards and talk about it there where it's a balance discussion and not a personal attack.
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/signed
I wouldn't be rude enough to tell another player they rolled a gimp and they are just filling out the team to make it 8, but every time I'm rolling thru the early mish in CoV thats what I'm thinking about Dominators
Are they killing they're 3 mobs quickly (no)
Are they assisting the Brute tank (not really)
Are they taking/mitigating the Alpha (no)
Would I dump them in and instant for a Brute or Corruptor (yes)
Would I dump them in an instant for a Contoller or a Blaster (yes)
and the same is true for AV/Monster mish in the late game
People sometimes tell me I'm both pessimistic and paranoid but I think that's just because all you optimists are out to get me.
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/signed
I wouldn't be rude enough to tell another player they rolled a gimp and they are just filling out the team to make it 8, but every time I'm rolling thru the early mish in CoV thats what I'm thinking about Dominators
Are they killing they're 3 mobs quickly (no)
Are they assisting the Brute tank (not really)
Are they taking/mitigating the Alpha (no)
Would I dump them in and instant for a Brute or Corruptor (yes)
Would I dump them in an instant for a Contoller or a Blaster (yes)
and the same is true for AV/Monster mish in the late game
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Hmm, got a question. Number 1 I understand, but it is and will always be true of a AT with a damage secondary.
#2 Are they assisting the brute/tank? In what way? If a boss is eating your brute alive and a dom holds him, isnt that assisting, as the brute/tank doesnt have to run? Further, early on, heals are weak, corruptors dont have many or any debuffs or holds, and brutes have poor defenses.
#3 are they taking/mitigating the alpha - from level 12, an ice dom can take the alpha using ice slick as long as they can place it using something to break line of sight, which is about 90% of the time. The slick stops return attacks, completely removing the alpha. Further, the dom can then lock down the most dangerous mob, short of a triangle AV/EB/GM.
Would you dump them? Sure, but that may be from your perception, not a fact of making the optimal team.
As for the late game, I agree that doms contribute less against AVs and GMs, because the dom main ability of bringing control has been nuked, while corruptor abilities have been kept the same or boosted.
Its much more severe in the case of the Lord Recluse SF, due to the multiple AVs. Corruptors debuffs tend to be AOE, and so stack on all the AVs at one time, while a doms are mainly single target, and so even if the dom can hold one AV, the corruptor is putting -X% damage/acc on all 5 AVs at one time, stacked with other corruptor debuffs.
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/signed
I wouldn't be rude enough to tell another player they rolled a gimp and they are just filling out the team to make it 8, but every time I'm rolling thru the early mish in CoV thats what I'm thinking about Dominators
Are they killing they're 3 mobs quickly (no)
Are they assisting the Brute tank (not really)
Are they taking/mitigating the Alpha (no)
Would I dump them in and instant for a Brute or Corruptor (yes)
Would I dump them in an instant for a Contoller or a Blaster (yes)
and the same is true for AV/Monster mish in the late game
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Hmm, got a question. Number 1 I understand, but it is and will always be true of a AT with a damage secondary.
#2 Are they assisting the brute/tank? In what way? If a boss is eating your brute alive and a dom holds him, isnt that assisting, as the brute/tank doesnt have to run? Further, early on, heals are weak, corruptors dont have many or any debuffs or holds, and brutes have poor defenses.
#3 are they taking/mitigating the alpha - from level 12, an ice dom can take the alpha using ice slick as long as they can place it using something to break line of sight, which is about 90% of the time. The slick stops return attacks, completely removing the alpha. Further, the dom can then lock down the most dangerous mob, short of a triangle AV/EB/GM.
Would you dump them? Sure, but that may be from your perception, not a fact of making the optimal team.
As for the late game, I agree that doms contribute less against AVs and GMs, because the dom main ability of bringing control has been nuked, while corruptor abilities have been kept the same or boosted.
Its much more severe in the case of the Lord Recluse SF, due to the multiple AVs. Corruptors debuffs tend to be AOE, and so stack on all the AVs at one time, while a doms are mainly single target, and so even if the dom can hold one AV, the corruptor is putting -X% damage/acc on all 5 AVs at one time, stacked with other corruptor debuffs.
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Yeah sure doms are useful but now you're just talking logic! Your the quote was from someone who admitted he cant even get a dom outta outbreak, so he must be the one qualified to tell us how much doms suck! You think when he plays his Brute he just charges full teams spawns and thinks hes so tough and thats why he lives? I love to see how fast most Brutes drop in a full team spawn without the help of a good healer, corr or dom. Unless there level 38 power is active...its a rapid faceplant.
In any case-its good many don't liek doms-keeps demand high for those who enjoy 'em!
Brutes, MMs, Corruptors: These 3 ATs can perform well or excellent at ALL the content in the game.
Doms, Stalkers: These 2 ATs can perform mediocore to well at half the content and are just plain AWFUL at the other half (whether it's pvp/AV fights/etc)
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its good many don't liek doms-keeps demand high for those who enjoy 'em!
[/ QUOTE ] Where do you play? Maybe I need to move to your server. Demand for Dominators on my server is practically nonexistant. Most parties will take a Dom if they want more people for some reason, but I have never seen a broadcast of "Party LF Dom"
I agree about Ice Slick, but that is unique to Ice and I have never been in that situation...
I think its the exception rather than the rule
Flashfire cycles rather slowly for the same usage (tanking) and I never see the player base too happy with Mass Confusion (seeds) nor Mass Hypnosis (I have a 41 Mind/Kinetics so I have no problem with it).
Dimenson Shift as an opener anyone?? 
Dominatorr don't enable tanking the way Corruptors can (or multiple brutes or a even a good A/S)
I have never seen a dominator performing good tank support and I admit even my Mind/Fire doesn't really do it--people love to break my mass sleep so I save it for additional mobs, not sleeping the next pack and the next
I don't think Dominators were built that way..If I put my controller targeting a tank and start supporting him it works... If I do the same with my Dominator I get to control something just as the brute kills it, or I get slaughtered for using Melee too close to the Brute
People sometimes tell me I'm both pessimistic and paranoid but I think that's just because all you optimists are out to get me.
I have several dominators in they're teens and I have teamed with dominators often. My problem is two fold,
A) I don't see them played effectively (either they are nibbling some mobs to death and leeching at early levels or the get Scrapper Lock during Domination)
B) I can make a dominator more effectively by adding Pool Attacks to Controllers (my Fire/Kinetics kills in a way my Ice/Fire can only dream of) --and Blappers with holds works well... my Ice/Energy blapper is monstrous
I've been here since beta and I have clocked a lot of hours, and have seen about two well played Dominators (both well out of the twenties)
since I can manage to play Controllers, Defenders, Scrappers, Tankers, Corruptors, MM... I am vainglorious enough to think its the AT, not the player
--especially since I can make one better as a Controller or Blaster, and fufill the role of Control and Assault
People sometimes tell me I'm both pessimistic and paranoid but I think that's just because all you optimists are out to get me.
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I agree about Ice Slick, but that is unique to Ice and I have never been in that situation...
I think its the exception rather than the rule
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Hi.
I play a mind/psi dominator and he has both mass hypnosis and mass confusion which can negate the alpha without the mobs aggroing to the dominator (or the dominator's team).
I also play a plant/nrg dominator and he has carrion creepers, which can negate the alpha without the mobs aggroing to the dominator (or the dominator's team).
both of those mind powers are on looong recharges. and mass hypnosis is often broken because people like to use aoe's at the start of a fight, while the enemies are grouped. and many ppl still complain that confuse steals their xp...
i agree about creepers though, they're great. at what, lv 26? or is it 18?
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My issues with Doms are the slow start for the first 20-30 levels and the weak team contribution for a class whose PRIMARY is support. And, as much as I like the change, it doesn't seem to fix that at all.
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I agree with this, but you mentioned in another post, I believe, that you could play your Dominator "effectively" on a team with Domination up or without it. Do you feel that doms can contribute their fair share on a team if played properly, or did I misunderstand what you were saying?