Do dominators suck like people say they do?
By
Aleshanee_NA,
Posted on: 2006-07-05 13:59 in Dominators
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What Dominators need is an always on damage increase. Having an entire secondary devoted to damage, but which in fact does insignificant damage, is a waste. If we pay for this by losing our damage bonus in Domination, thats fine by me.
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QFT
If one could do Domination-level damage consistantly and just not have it increase when Domination was popped, it would be a glorious change indeed.
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The problem is if you lock down a group of MOBs, you are going to do damage to them at almost ZERO risk. If you did Domination-style damage all the time, Dominators would be too good.
While I think the complaints about Dominators being too dependent on Domination are valid, I'm beginning to believe this is the same as complaining that broccoli tastes like broccoli. Dominators were designed to be a jekyll and hyde type of AT (thanks to Positron for the analogy). People are either going to love it or hate it.
Arc# 92382 -- "The S.P.I.D.E.R. and the Tyrant" -- Ninjas! Robots! Praetorians! It's totally epic! Play it now!
Arc # 316340 -- "Husk" -- Azuria loses something, a young woman harbors a dark secret, and the fate of the world is in your hands.
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The problem is if you lock down a group of MOBs, you are going to do damage to them at almost ZERO risk.
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You mean sort of like a Sonic Blaster using Siren's Song to put an entire group to sleep, then using his superior damage to kill them one at a time? Sort of exactly like that?
I don't remember Sonic Blasters ever being called "too good," yet they do exactly what you're describing: they lock down a group then pick it apart. They have a single target stun that can even be used to ensure the one enemy they're fighting at any given time can't fight back; the only reason they might not USE it on each enemy is that each enemy dies SO fast that it's a waste of time.
If there's a rationale as to why Dominators must have low damage, the "risk" explanation isn't it, as Sonic Blasters disprove it. Solo they kill with as little risk as a Dominator while having much higher damage, and in a team environment how much of a risk any INDIVIDUAL player is at is determined by team composition more than their individual powers. I'm not necessarily saying Dominators need more damage, I'm just saying your particular explanation isn't the REASON they don't need more if they don't.
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The problem is if you lock down a group of MOBs, you are going to do damage to them at almost ZERO risk.
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You mean sort of like a Sonic Blaster using Siren's Song to put an entire group to sleep, then using his superior damage to kill them one at a time? Sort of exactly like that?
I don't remember Sonic Blasters ever being called "too good," yet they do exactly what you're describing: they lock down a group then pick it apart. They have a single target stun that can even be used to ensure the one enemy they're fighting at any given time can't fight back; the only reason they might not USE it on each enemy is that each enemy dies SO fast that it's a waste of time.
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Sonic blasters are good, and I'm not going to debate that. Compared to the rest of the AT, they lack some of the tools other blasters receive. Oh, and that AOE sleep isn't too effective on bosses.
My dominator can hold a boss (easily) and take negligible damage throughout the fight.
My sonic blaster can NOT do that.
My dominator can deal with Elite Bosses with Domination up much more easily than a sonic blaster can. My 22 Dominator DESTROYED Sea Witch without flinching. My blasters have to use hit and run tactics against EBs.
So your point seems to be "some characters are good at some things but not as good at other things." We already knew that, though.
Arc# 92382 -- "The S.P.I.D.E.R. and the Tyrant" -- Ninjas! Robots! Praetorians! It's totally epic! Play it now!
Arc # 316340 -- "Husk" -- Azuria loses something, a young woman harbors a dark secret, and the fate of the world is in your hands.
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I've said this before and I'll say it again...the key with the Dominators is the melee attacks. The bulk of the damage is there. My dominator, hitting an even level mob with no fire resistance in melee does 85 damage at level 22.
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My Fire/Ice dom is level 22, and at this point I'm hardly using my melee attacks even though I only have 2 blast powers. I find that the melee attacks just slow me down.
My technique soloing is to use TP Foe to pull a mob to me, then I spam Char, Ice Bolt, and Ice Blast until the mob is dead. By the time the first mob is dead, TP Foe is up again and I tp the next one. If I get 2 of the 3, or all three, aggroed, I have to use Char to hold the others and so can't use it as part of my attack chain on the mob I'm attacking. That's the only time I use Air Superiority or Ice Sword.
This method allows me to go through a mission constantly attacking, so that I build domination fast, and yet I take almost no damage. An added benefit is that I also don't run dry on end, even though Stamina just has 1 DO in it now. (Each blast power has 1 DO end red). I can either pop Domination pretty much every time it's up, and during it's duration I can mow through a couple groups without pulling, or I can save Domination for the last room. Right now I'm still on Villainous, but think I could go to Vicious easily.
So, I don't think that melee is the only way to play. It's certainly one option, but I have found that Ice Sword just slows me down because of its end usage. Also, the animations of Ice Sword and Air Sup, while they seem pretty fast, are actually slow enough to slow down my attack chain when I use them as part of the regular chain. My chain of Char, Ice Bolt, Ice Blast has a couple of short gaps, but not enough to fit one of the melee powers in, and those gaps should go away once I get Stamina slotted out and then swap out the end red in my blasts for an SO recharge.
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I will agree that melee attacks arent the only way to go. However, if you (not 515A, but in general) think the damage is subpar, it is a good idea to consider if your build is taking enough attacks, if the attacks are being slotted at the right time, or if the attacks you are choosing are the correct ones.
I found on my dark/psi defender I had chosen too many primary powers too early, which made it extremely tough to solo him until I switched and got a few more attacks. Further, as I had slotted primary powers heavily, it made it even harder to solo than it should have been with the powers available to me.
I think damage secondaries have to be taken and slotted around 50/50 with the primary, and in some cases, as you level you may end up with more secondary powers than primary powers.
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I guess the difference is I've been running a plant/fire dom, so doing ANYTHING single target just really isn't in the cards for me. Seeds of Confusion causes everything to bunch together. Once that happens I can let loose with Breath of Fire and then close for the melee attacks.
Arc# 92382 -- "The S.P.I.D.E.R. and the Tyrant" -- Ninjas! Robots! Praetorians! It's totally epic! Play it now!
Arc # 316340 -- "Husk" -- Azuria loses something, a young woman harbors a dark secret, and the fate of the world is in your hands.
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Ok after I've calmed myself down a bit, I'm wondering...
Mez resistance or mez protection?
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Protection vs. Knockback, Knock Up, Repel, Stun, Sleep, Hold, Immobilize, Confuse and Fear. Pretty much the whole suite.
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I think I wet my armor. 
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The problem is if you lock down a group of MOBs, you are going to do damage to them at almost ZERO risk.
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You mean sort of like a Sonic Blaster using Siren's Song to put an entire group to sleep, then using his superior damage to kill them one at a time? Sort of exactly like that?
I don't remember Sonic Blasters ever being called "too good," yet they do exactly what you're describing: they lock down a group then pick it apart. They have a single target stun that can even be used to ensure the one enemy they're fighting at any given time can't fight back; the only reason they might not USE it on each enemy is that each enemy dies SO fast that it's a waste of time.
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Sonic blasters are good, and I'm not going to debate that. Compared to the rest of the AT, they lack some of the tools other blasters receive. Oh, and that AOE sleep isn't too effective on bosses.
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1) They lack ONE tool the others get: a snipe. They have a single target control, they have area effects, they have a good single target attack chain. All they meaningfully sacrifice is a snipe.
2) While the sleep isn't effective on a boss, Screech + a stun from your secondary IS, and many Blasters take stun-capable secondaries. An A Sonic/Energy Manipulation Blaster solos just as safely as any Dominator, and much faster. In fact, he probably holds the boss faster than you do in many situations, as he can chain 2 stuns immediately without having to burn a long-term cooldown like an area effect hold (and that ignores that a Blaster's Total Focus can stun a boss in one hit according to many; I don't have first hand knowledge of that so I'm not going to make it a primary part of my case, but if it IS true it COMPLETELY blows your case out of the water with regards to bosses, as they can solo them with casual ease).
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My sonic blaster can NOT do that.
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He can if he's EM. Or Devices. Those are probably the two most popular secondaries. Remember, all we're doing is giving an example of what Dominators would be that's all ready in the game; it doesn't matter how specific we have to get.
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My dominator can deal with Elite Bosses with Domination up much more easily than a sonic blaster can.
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Not if he has purple triangles he can't, which many Elite Bosses do now a days; the vast majority of the time your holds will be negated in that situation, while his damage never is.
So there are a select few Elite Boss fights in which your Dominator ARUABLY has it safer; that's the best you can argue. And there are purples for those situations, meaning the Blaster really doesn't have a problem with it at all (I can't imagine a Blaster doing hit and run against an Elite Boss instead of just using a few purples honestly, it's silly).
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So your point seems to be "some characters are good at some things but not as good at other things." We already knew that, though.
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No, my point is overall, Sonic/Energy Blasters will solo just as safely as a Dominator, and much faster. And further, against MOST Elite Bosses (e.g. the ones with the triangles, which are currently in the majority), the Blaster will actually have an EASIER time than the Dominator, as their high damage isn't negated the way holds are.
As I said, if there's a REASON Dominators can't have high damage, your risk explanation just isn't it. There may well BE a reason, it's just not THIS reason.
All CoV ATs are very dependent on their special ability. Brutes and Stalkers would be helpless/pointless without theirs, masterminds have theirs heavily integrated with their primary (basically, the pet control window is a part of their special ability). Corruptors escape this with a special ability that does pretty little - but have versatility in their powers instead.
I dislike this dependency on special ability. It makes all villains of one AT more or less the same - in particular the difference between any two Brutes or Stalkers is too small.
Therefore I wish LESS emphasis placed on Domination, and I want dominators to function better normally and less well on Domination. There are already overdrive powers in this game - Hasten being the easiest to access. Some people like such powers, other's don't. Forcing them down our throats is a bad idea and will make Dominators less appealing.
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All CoV ATs are very dependent on their special ability. Brutes and Stalkers would be helpless/pointless without theirs, masterminds have theirs heavily integrated with their primary (basically, the pet control window is a part of their special ability). Corruptors escape this with a special ability that does pretty little - but have versatility in their powers instead.
I dislike this dependency on special ability. It makes all villains of one AT more or less the same - in particular the difference between any two Brutes or Stalkers is too small.
Therefore I wish LESS emphasis placed on Domination, and I want dominators to function better normally and less well on Domination. There are already overdrive powers in this game - Hasten being the easiest to access. Some people like such powers, other's don't. Forcing them down our throats is a bad idea and will make Dominators less appealing.
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Unfortunately I think it's pretty clear the path the dev wants to take is CLOSER to Domination than away from it. The new buff on mez protection during Domination form suggests that Dominator's "primary goal" is to become the True Dominator. That's how they can distinguish the different playing style between Dominator and Controller. I have not played Troller so I can't say for sure but if the dev wants everything to revolve around "Domination", then those of us who choose to play Dominator should try to achieve that goal. If not, maybe Controller is a better choice of AT for you? That's what I am trying to tell myself now.
I have to enjoy being in the Domination form. I feel the NEED to be in Domination form. Without it, Dominator is inferior... I, too, thought that more improvement in the non-Domination form is better for the overall gaming experience but I don't think that's the path the dev wants to take, and I don't think we can change their opinions on this. They want a "different" AT.
Having said that, I do feel melee attacks and AoE attack should gain us more Domination points = more risk involved. I find myself using range attacks way more often in groups because I can't afford to take the aggro and I spend more time controling. If melee attacks and aoe attacks give me a lot more Domination gain, I may just risk it and go inside!
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
One thing, I've been thinking about is the ability to store 2 Dominations. It may have been discussed before but that could be a great solution to Domination form not being "up" more often than we want to. Many times I choose to save it up 'cause I don't know when the mish is going to end and whether or not, there are boss or bosses/ ambushes. I just want to wait until the last moment to enjoy Domination.
If I know I have saved up two Dominations, I think I'll enjoy it a lot more often. I know that I always have a back up Domination if things get nasty.
Would this be too powerful? I think it's worth testing. One thing I do know is we need to "click" the power to activate so it might not be that hard to put 2 Domination system in it. Two buttons, easy enough!
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Not true, AVs used to have no protection at all. Statesman, in a post that has since scrolled but that I had captured in Controllers: The Vision Thing, shows Statesman asking people not to accuse him of nerfing controllers again (first nerf being the PA/imp changes from minions to pets) just because the AV protection went live because he works a few issues ahead...admitting it was an overreaction...and then promising a fix. That was 7/15/04.
The triangles were the fix, to the state of perma "impossible to hold" that was in existence from 7/15/04 until the triangles went live. Before 7/15/04, AVs simply had a few more mag than Bosses.
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I could SWEAR I remember a redname specifically saying fairly recently that the triangles did nothing but add a visual cue to what was already happening...
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What Dominators need is an always on damage increase. Having an entire secondary devoted to damage, but which in fact does insignificant damage, is a waste. If we pay for this by losing our damage bonus in Domination, thats fine by me.
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QFT
If one could do Domination-level damage consistantly and just not have it increase when Domination was popped, it would be a glorious change indeed.
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The problem is if you lock down a group of MOBs, you are going to do damage to them at almost ZERO risk. If you did Domination-style damage all the time, Dominators would be too good.
While I think the complaints about Dominators being too dependent on Domination are valid, I'm beginning to believe this is the same as complaining that broccoli tastes like broccoli. Dominators were designed to be a jekyll and hyde type of AT (thanks to Positron for the analogy). People are either going to love it or hate it.
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My concern with the whole "Jekyll and Hyde" thing is this.
Essentially, this means the team carries you while you build Domination, and then you can repay the favor by carrying the team when you click Domination. OK, sounds like it makes sense on paper.
Only, you don't really have the power to carry the team through anything with Domination that they can't carry themselves through already.
<ul type="square">[*]AV encounters: Control nuetered when triangle up. When down, you don't need Domination to punch through.[*]Elite Bosses/Bosses: You don't need Domination to defeat these guys. You can control them without Domination, and your team must have sufficient damage to defeat them or you wouldn't have Domination built up.[*]Combat gone wrong: Domination doesn't jab your HPs back up, so go ahead and hit Domination, then die and have it go away[/list]
No question, when Domination clicked, you are THE MAN. Even moreso after these changes. But, given the limitations on Domination, what good does being THE MAN have for the team?
That's an honest question, not a rhetorical one. I must be missing something.
I see the beauty of it in PVP. I enjoy the FEELING it gives me in PVE. I know how to play my Dom effecitvely on a team to the benefit of everyone (whether Dom is down or up).
But I don't get what benefit a "Jekyll and Hyde" AT delivers to a team?
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I could SWEAR I remember a redname specifically saying fairly recently that the triangles did nothing but add a visual cue to what was already happening...
[/ QUOTE ] I can't deny the possibility that something similar was mentioned, but I can be fairly certain it wasn't stated that way, as a forum search for "triangles" or "visual cue" returned zero redname posts for the last two months...
Do you guys think if the new "improved" Domination gives Dom more defense/hp and accuracy would be too powerful?
I do agree with Pilcrow somewhat. When my Domination is on in a big team, I can still do the same job. I hold longer but I can equally spend more time to hold when I am not in Domination.
If Domination gives Dom better defense/accuracy, Doms can really go nuts and provide a lot more damage for the team (especially if we cannot hold through Purple Triangles). The only trouble is it may make Dom too powerful in PvP? We shall see....
Did they say mez protection is the only new thing added?
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Not true, AVs used to have no protection at all. Statesman, in a post that has since scrolled but that I had captured in Controllers: The Vision Thing, shows Statesman asking people not to accuse him of nerfing controllers again (first nerf being the PA/imp changes from minions to pets) just because the AV protection went live because he works a few issues ahead...admitting it was an overreaction...and then promising a fix. That was 7/15/04.
The triangles were the fix, to the state of perma "impossible to hold" that was in existence from 7/15/04 until the triangles went live. Before 7/15/04, AVs simply had a few more mag than Bosses.
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I could SWEAR I remember a redname specifically saying fairly recently that the triangles did nothing but add a visual cue to what was already happening...
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When the triangles were added, they were actually an improvement over the status quo - which was that AVs were pretty well immune to control 24/7.
But before they were immune to control 24/7, they were vulnerable to it 24/7.
Neither situation (essentially immune to control, essentially trivialized by control) was acceptable. But the triangle thing is just plain silly. The devs know it, too, or we'd all have little triangles in PVP. Why they haven't gone back and given AVs suppression and breakfrees and removed the triangles is beyond me.
Honestly, I think the Mr. Hyde part is, in a team situation, primarily there to make an encounter you probably could have handled turn a little easier for a while. Domination does help, but it's not something that, in normal play, the team needs from the Dom.
If you have a role in that team, then you're probably meeting it as Dr. Jekyll--that, or the team is in for a world of disappointment when your glow fades.
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Did they say mez protection is the only new thing added?
[/ QUOTE ] No, in fact he implied that it wouldn't be, so I'm not too worried at this point.
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Do you guys think if the new "improved" Domination gives Dom more defense/hp and accuracy would be too powerful?
I do agree with Pilcrow somewhat. When my Domination is on in a big team, I can still do the same job. I hold longer but I can equally spend more time to hold when I am not in Domination.
If Domination gives Dom better defense/accuracy, Doms can really go nuts and provide a lot more damage for the team (especially if we cannot hold through Purple Triangles). The only trouble is it may make Dom too powerful in PvP? We shall see....
Did they say mez protection is the only new thing added?
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I'd like to see it recharge you HP bar as well as your END bar. As for DEF and ACC, I think +DMG, +HP, +END, +MAG, +DUR is likely enough.
I wouldn't even mind not getting the +HP if death didn't kill both Domination and your Domination bar. It would be a nice synergy with Corruptors if they could rez & heal you and then you turn into a tazmanian devil of destruction. There's a one-two punch to reverse a combat gone bad. But you can't do the 1-2 punch because if your Dom dies, kiss your Domination bar bye bye.
Looking back at a few pages, when did everyone start agreeing that Dominators are crappy outside of Domination? It's stil not true folks.
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Do you guys think if the new "improved" Domination gives Dom more defense/hp and accuracy would be too powerful?
I do agree with Pilcrow somewhat. When my Domination is on in a big team, I can still do the same job. I hold longer but I can equally spend more time to hold when I am not in Domination.
If Domination gives Dom better defense/accuracy, Doms can really go nuts and provide a lot more damage for the team (especially if we cannot hold through Purple Triangles). The only trouble is it may make Dom too powerful in PvP? We shall see....
Did they say mez protection is the only new thing added?
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I'd like to see it recharge you HP bar as well as your END bar. As for DEF and ACC, I think +DMG, +HP, +END, +MAG, +DUR is likely enough.
I wouldn't even mind not getting the +HP if death didn't kill both Domination and your Domination bar. It would be a nice synergy with Corruptors if they could rez & heal you and then you turn into a tazmanian devil of destruction. There's a one-two punch to reverse a combat gone bad. But you can't do the 1-2 punch because if your Dom dies, kiss your Domination bar bye bye.
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Hmm...maybe they should just add a +Self Rez into the Domination component as well.
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Did they say mez protection is the only new thing added?
[/ QUOTE ] No, in fact he implied that it wouldn't be, so I'm not too worried at this point.
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That's nice then 'cause we may just see more buffs during Domination form! 
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Honestly, I think the Mr. Hyde part is, in a team situation, primarily there to make an encounter you probably could have handled turn a little easier for a while. Domination does help, but it's not something that, in normal play, the team needs from the Dom.
If you have a role in that team, then you're probably meeting it as Dr. Jekyll--that, or the team is in for a world of disappointment when your glow fades.
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That's my experience, too. If I am fulfilling a team role, it's as Dr. Jekyll.
So making Mr. Hyde more powerful - as cool and fun as it is in concept - how does that really help?
If the devs want to say "Domination isn't really meant to help Dominators with team-role much - it's for PVP, soloing, and just plain fun", I'll be right there cheering.
But then buffing Domination again isn't really a solution to the "problems" Dominators are having. I already find it great in PVP, when soloing, and I find it fun (not that the mez protection won't make my PVP experience much better, mind you).
My issues with Doms are the slow start for the first 20-30 levels and the weak team contribution for a class whose PRIMARY is support. And, as much as I like the change, it doesn't seem to fix that at all.
Maybe I should be on Quason's "gift horse" thread.
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Looking back at a few pages, when did everyone start agreeing that Dominators are crappy outside of Domination? It's stil not true folks.
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Lemme guess, Plant/ Dom?
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If we need to even up the numbers, the place to put Squishie Mez Resistance on the CoH side is Defenders.
An almost dead Blaster breaking mez isn't going to be able to pull a team's fanny out of the fire, and while Controllers could pull the team's fanny out - so can Defenders. And they need the boost more. And it will work quite well thematically with Vengeance to have ever increasing mez resistance as your team gets more and more pummelled (not that it wouldn't work thematically for Defiance).
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That's a great idea.
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Looking back at a few pages, when did everyone start agreeing that Dominators are crappy outside of Domination? It's stil not true folks.
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Lemme guess, Plant/ Dom?
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actually thats not the overall consesus. I have a 42 ice/fire dom who I would say is as useful if not more than my high level spines scrapper. There are just a few that beleive that only plant/ does any good as a dominator.
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I've said this before and I'll say it again...the key with the Dominators is the melee attacks. The bulk of the damage is there. My dominator, hitting an even level mob with no fire resistance in melee does 85 damage at level 22.
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My Fire/Ice dom is level 22, and at this point I'm hardly using my melee attacks even though I only have 2 blast powers. I find that the melee attacks just slow me down.
My technique soloing is to use TP Foe to pull a mob to me, then I spam Char, Ice Bolt, and Ice Blast until the mob is dead. By the time the first mob is dead, TP Foe is up again and I tp the next one. If I get 2 of the 3, or all three, aggroed, I have to use Char to hold the others and so can't use it as part of my attack chain on the mob I'm attacking. That's the only time I use Air Superiority or Ice Sword.
This method allows me to go through a mission constantly attacking, so that I build domination fast, and yet I take almost no damage. An added benefit is that I also don't run dry on end, even though Stamina just has 1 DO in it now. (Each blast power has 1 DO end red). I can either pop Domination pretty much every time it's up, and during it's duration I can mow through a couple groups without pulling, or I can save Domination for the last room. Right now I'm still on Villainous, but think I could go to Vicious easily.
So, I don't think that melee is the only way to play. It's certainly one option, but I have found that Ice Sword just slows me down because of its end usage. Also, the animations of Ice Sword and Air Sup, while they seem pretty fast, are actually slow enough to slow down my attack chain when I use them as part of the regular chain. My chain of Char, Ice Bolt, Ice Blast has a couple of short gaps, but not enough to fit one of the melee powers in, and those gaps should go away once I get Stamina slotted out and then swap out the end red in my blasts for an SO recharge.
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I will agree that melee attacks arent the only way to go. However, if you (not 515A, but in general) think the damage is subpar, it is a good idea to consider if your build is taking enough attacks, if the attacks are being slotted at the right time, or if the attacks you are choosing are the correct ones.
I found on my dark/psi defender I had chosen too many primary powers too early, which made it extremely tough to solo him until I switched and got a few more attacks. Further, as I had slotted primary powers heavily, it made it even harder to solo than it should have been with the powers available to me.
I think damage secondaries have to be taken and slotted around 50/50 with the primary, and in some cases, as you level you may end up with more secondary powers than primary powers.