Do dominators suck like people say they do?
By
Aleshanee_NA,
Posted on: 2006-07-05 13:59 in Dominators
on my (semi-retired, 'til they fix doms) plant/fire i used dom purely as endurance filler. i'd get it charged up and pop it whenever my end got depleted, and if i didnt run out of end i'd just pop it on the mish boss and call it good
doms can survive just fine without domination, but they're mediocre. make them good without it and great with it, and i'll play my dom again
My trouble with Dominators is that they are too dependent on Domination and too lacklustre without it. Adding Mez resistance to Domination only makes this worse (though it does make the class stronger).
What Dominators need is an always on damage increase. Having an entire secondary devoted to damage, but which in fact does insignificant damage, is a waste. If we pay for this by losing our damage bonus in Domination, thats fine by me.
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What Dominators need is an always on damage increase. Having an entire secondary devoted to damage, but which in fact does insignificant damage, is a waste. If we pay for this by losing our damage bonus in Domination, thats fine by me.
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QFT
If one could do Domination-level damage consistantly and just not have it increase when Domination was popped, it would be a glorious change indeed.
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My trouble with Dominators is that they are too dependent on Domination and too lacklustre without it. Adding Mez resistance to Domination only makes this worse (though it does make the class stronger).
What Dominators need is an always on damage increase. Having an entire secondary devoted to damage, but which in fact does insignificant damage, is a waste. If we pay for this by losing our damage bonus in Domination, thats fine by me.
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I think the emphasis on DOMINATION and the tweaking it receives is the dev's way of letting us know what the design and intent of the AT is. None of them can flat out tell us how theyexpect or want us to playthe Dominator, but by buffing certain aspects of the AT they shine a little light on what mentality a player should have while playing. A good way to look at it is not by thinking the secondary is devoted to damage, but numerous attacks. The more the better imo. Heh, the only AT in CoX that comes close to having as many damage deaing powers as doms are blasters I believe. These attacks are what lead to domination or "(as someone has phrased it) "Ultra Uber God-Mode"... and whether or not we like it, this "jeckyl and hyde" playstlye is built into the design of the dominator.
It's at this realization that leads me to think that the biggest problem people face when playing doms is not the dom itself, but the expectations some players place on them.
Every tweak to Doms (except the minor increase to melee attacks) has been centered around domination: reduced recharge, pvp booost to domination, the soon to be mez protection during domination...
One shouldn't be searching for more defense, or better damage, or longer mez durations, or shorter recharge and lower end costs... One shouldn't be looking to completely change what the AT is designed for. One should only be foucused and concerned with getting to DOMINATION asap. Once any dom player learns to actually get domination up consisitently 3-5 times a mission... like we should be and are fully capable of, then most, if not all other concerns will cease to exisit if ya ask me.
I personally don't think of doms as being "dependant" on domination. I think of them as being constantly driven and determined to reach it at all costs.
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
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Out of curiosity, does this tweak include the ability to fire off domination when mezzed?
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Not initially, but the patch following should have it. I forget to stick that in on the original change, and QA helpfully pointed it out, but not in time to reach the version going out.
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Yay! Tnank you lots!
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While I love the idea of mezz protection, I have to agree it feels like just another reason to crutch on Domination. I was thinking that since domination boosts damage (which we supposedly have) and controls, why not have it boost inherent mezz protection? Like, give doms a mag 4 resist to hold, sleep, disorient, and then domination boost it, along with the fear, confuse, KB, repel, so that way we can survive ONE hold on our own. To help with the peaks and valley issues a lot of people have
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I have to agree here. It sounds neat and all, but my primary issue with the PvP environment as a Dom-player since the game came out is that when I face a scrapper or tank, one of us is going to get mezed and then die - and that one of us is ALWAYS me, because I need to stack 3-5 holds on him (the benefits of Acrobatics are kinda ludicrious) and he needs to get exactly one hold on me - casually killing me before I recover. If it took him 2 holds, I could at least take my chances but as it stands, the villian's principle mezzer is always the the one getting mezzed 
.
Please - just give me a chance to try an hold my foes. And not by having dinked around poking mobs for 3 minutes before going to engage him. Mag 4 resitance as a professional courtesy to mezzers. Heck, I'd take Mag 1.8 resistance to the matching incomming effect as a sub-benefit from each of my hold/root powers so it slowly built up as the character gained levels/powers and reflected my specific primary set.
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I need to stack 3-5 holds on him (the benefits of Acrobatics are kinda ludicrious) and he needs to get exactly one hold on me - casually killing me before I recover. If it took him 2 holds, I could at least take my chances ....
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If you have Acrobatics yourself, it should take your opponent 2 holds to stop you, unless it's a controller or another dominator in PVP.
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Out of curiosity, does this tweak include the ability to fire off domination when mezzed?
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Not initially, but the patch following should have it. I forget to stick that in on the original change, and QA helpfully pointed it out, but not in time to reach the version going out.
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Awesome. In my mind, it won't handle the biggest defensive problem of Dominators... with no debuffs, self-heals, or other means of mitigating DAMAGE, they're far more likely to get killed by being damaged than by being mezzed. But it's still a huge step, and a big difference between them and the other squishies, that may bridge the performance gap to where they're not just competitive, but relatively even, with others.
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My dominators have never been "crappy." Maybe you are just crappy as a dominator?
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Sorry to say I don't agree with this. One of my regular team mates plays doms almost exclusively and plays them well. He has ice/ice, grav/en, fire/en melee type and plant/thorns so a fair sample. He thoroughly enjoyed playing up to 40 and then found they started to suck with all the malta/carnie mezzing and end draining that turned up, and purple triangle AV/hero downgraded to EBs, even more so after 45.
If he as a devoted dominator player tells me they suck in the high level game, I'm inclined to agree with him.
I suspect some doms may hold domination back as a get out of jail, which may not improve their enjoyment but will improve their survivability a touch. A buff while dom is not up would help more, I certainly already feel uber while dom is running.
As an aside, playing mainly brutes myself I have been very disappointed with the high level (45+ particularly, but 40-45 too) game's reliance on end drain and EB/AVs with tier 9 god mode powers. Malta, carnies and longbow appear in far too high a proportion of the late game missions, and drain the fun out of play about as fast as the end for both solo doms and brutes. Plus a series of EBs you can't hold most of the time, and can't hit for several minutes at a time is not my idea of fun.
PS they missed resists to slow and placate
Lucifer's Lieutenant 50 SS/fire brute protector
and 70+ others including 7 CoH 50s and 3 other CoV 40+
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Want to address both posts (which may have been done already, as there are pages to go I havent read yet).
First, its always a little suspect to say maybe they (the player) just arent good. For one reason, they may simply be used to having more power, via having played a stronger AT, which would mean that in comparison doms need boosting. Its always hard to figure out how your favorite toon that seems to do so well is being posted as gimped and crappy by someone else, but this type reply tends to make the posts more about flames than discussion.
On the second one, I find my dom is better in the high game than possible some brutes. This is because I normally have a lot of options to stop the end drain before it starts. I usually have the AOE hold on tap as well as waterspout and domination up the sleeve just in case.
In fact, the only times I am dying now are 1) getting hit while traveling Grandville, from no where and 2) from stuns and holds while in teams. A big part of number 2 being communication and people on a team that dont tend to be careful before they agro (mainly MMs, brutes occasionally, and me on a real bad night).
On the other hand, domination more than ever would be my ace in the hole, and wil not be used as it comes available if its also a portable mez protection. Thats too valuable when the chips are down to give up to beat 4 minions a little faster earlier in the mission.
Last, I am level 44. It may get much worse after 45, but I havent seen Eliz Specter (lev 50) say anything disappointing about doms above 45, and in fact I over heard a night or two ago she was raising a secondary dom up.
Experieneces may vary, but my dom is much tougher than my tank versus end drain.
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My trouble with Dominators is that they are too dependent on Domination and too lacklustre without it. Adding Mez resistance to Domination only makes this worse (though it does make the class stronger).
What Dominators need is an always on damage increase. Having an entire secondary devoted to damage, but which in fact does insignificant damage, is a waste. If we pay for this by losing our damage bonus in Domination, thats fine by me.
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I think the emphasis on DOMINATION and the tweaking it receives is the dev's way of letting us know what the design and intent of the AT is. None of them can flat out tell us how theyexpect or want us to playthe Dominator, but by buffing certain aspects of the AT they shine a little light on what mentality a player should have while playing. A good way to look at it is not by thinking the secondary is devoted to damage, but numerous attacks. The more the better imo. Heh, the only AT in CoX that comes close to having as many damage deaing powers as doms are blasters I believe. These attacks are what lead to domination or "(as someone has phrased it) "Ultra Uber God-Mode"... and whether or not we like it, this "jeckyl and hyde" playstlye is built into the design of the dominator.
It's at this realization that leads me to think that the biggest problem people face when playing doms is not the dom itself, but the expectations some players place on them.
Every tweak to Doms (except the minor increase to melee attacks) has been centered around domination: reduced recharge, pvp booost to domination, the soon to be mez protection during domination...
One shouldn't be searching for more defense, or better damage, or longer mez durations, or shorter recharge and lower end costs... One shouldn't be looking to completely change what the AT is designed for. One should only be foucused and concerned with getting to DOMINATION asap. Once any dom player learns to actually get domination up consisitently 3-5 times a mission... like we should be and are fully capable of, then most, if not all other concerns will cease to exisit if ya ask me.
I personally don't think of doms as being "dependant" on domination. I think of them as being constantly driven and determined to reach it at all costs.
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in pve, this is really a moot issue as doms already kick booty. anyone who's played a squishy knows to bring a couple of breakfrees. yes, the end cost issue is still quite prevalent, but getting to domination quickly and using it isnt a problem in pve.
I can build domination in 10 seconds in pvp. i sure as hell cant kill anyone IN domination even with my 'boosted' blasts.
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A good way to look at it is not by thinking the secondary is devoted to damage, but numerous attacks. The more the better imo. Heh, the only AT in CoX that comes close to having as many damage deaing powers as doms are blasters I believe. These attacks are what lead to domination or "(as someone has phrased it) "Ultra Uber God-Mode"... and whether or not we like it, this "jeckyl and hyde" playstlye is built into the design of the dominator.
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Access to more powers does not automatically translate into more damage. Most AT's can do as much or more damage with anywhere from one to four attacks than most Doms could with access to their entire secondary. And they can survive long enough to do it from whatever their optimal range may be. The idea that the entire nine-power secondary exists solely for the purpose of building Domination is absurd. If that truly is its intended purpose, then they need to change the name from "Assault" and lower the end costs so we can hammer them out with reckless abandon.
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It's at this realization that leads me to think that the biggest problem people face when playing doms is not the dom itself, but the expectations some players place on them.
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I don't see anything wrong with expecting Doms to be desireable for teams, on par (or at least closer to it) with other AT's soloing, decent in PvP, not an unbearable grind to for half of the total levels (and especially low-level), and not useless if we do take the trouble to level them to 40. I don't see anything wrong with wanting my Dom to be effective outside of Domination.
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Every tweak to Doms (except the minor increase to melee attacks) has been centered around domination: reduced recharge, pvp booost to domination, the soon to be mez protection during domination...
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Which is why very little improvement has been seen. They've already turned us into veritable golden gods while running Domination, and most of us still aren't happy.
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One shouldn't be searching for more defense, or better damage, or longer mez durations, or shorter recharge and lower end costs... One shouldn't be looking to completely change what the AT is designed for. One should only be foucused and concerned with getting to DOMINATION asap. Once any dom player learns to actually get domination up consisitently 3-5 times a mission... like we should be and are fully capable of, then most, if not all other concerns will cease to exisit if ya ask me.
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If you don't have Domination running you do sad damage and can't hold bosses (until 18 at earliest, and then there's the slow recharge rate of your AoE hold to contend with). If you die, you lost Domination. If you use it consistently and then don't have it in a situation you need it (especially with the upcoming Mez crutch), you're boned. I guess I just have a hard time accepting a class that operates on the two extreme ends of the wavelength and is down more than up.
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I personally don't think of doms as being "dependant" on domination. I think of them as being constantly driven and determined to reach it at all costs.
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So you don't particularly consider yourself "dependant" on oxygen so much as determined to breath at all costs?
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Does it come with the purple triangles animation?
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Haha, please include this! I think I may actually get over my hatred of the triangles if this was added to domination.
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Which is why very little improvement has been seen. They've already turned us into veritable golden gods while running Domination, and most of us still aren't happy.
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Who is this "us"?
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If you don't have Domination running you do sad damage and can't hold bosses (until 18 at earliest, and then there's the slow recharge rate of your AoE hold to contend with).
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You can't hold a boss without domination or your AoE hold?
I can see why you don't like dominators...
If I quote #'s, they're from City of Data.
Global: @Kazari
It was either Taunt or Purple Triangles of Doom. I stand by my decision!
-BackAlleyBrawler
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We've got a nice tweak to the Domination ability coming down the pipe (it will crank up your Mez resistance while it is active), and are currently data-mining PvP to see what effect our last set of tweaks to the AT have had.
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My problem with this is that you are basically making Domination more uber, but apparently doing nothing for us in the non-Domination time. We'll be in the same position as before. Depressed when Domination expires. You say it yourself that you are "disappointed at hearing the sound effect of it wearing off" and this condition WILL NOT CHANGE by making Domination better. 
Status protection we can all get behind. But we need a better non-Domination experience here. Are there _any_ positive changes coming down the pike for us when not using Domination? Even getting status protection under the influence of Domination isn't making me want to play my Dominators again - if my non-Domination experience hasn't improved. Because I am just plodding through the game when I am waiting for it to come back up.
Please help.
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Actually, by the numbers, Dominators outdamage Controllers until the controllers can pick up the epic pools. Fire Mastery + Containment = sick damage.
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And even if I were to agree with you, is this a good thing? In my experience Controller > Dominator at pretty much every level - but definitely at 41+.
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I would dare say that you're not slotting your Dominator properly then. Early on (pre-level 10) the Controller wins in the damage. They're scary effective at that point where the Dominator will flounder on damage. Once you get around level 10, though, the Controller's damage doesn't scale very well whereas the Dominator's does. Many controllers can boost their damage a bit (dependent upon their secondary -- kinetics and radiation are great for this) but it still won't outshine the Dominator. At 32 they get the same pets, so that's a wash.
I've said this before and I'll say it again...the key with the Dominators is the melee attacks. The bulk of the damage is there. My dominator, hitting an even level mob with no fire resistance in melee does 85 damage at level 22. The attack recharges quickly and uses little END. With Domination it does about 120. You can not name any single controller attack, even with Containment, that does that much damage at that level.
The biggest mistakes I see with people playing Dominators...
1) They rely too much on their controls and don't slot (or even take) their attacks. At that point you're just a weak controller.
2) They ignore their melee attacks and try to play the class as a Defender with holds. (This was a mistake I was making.)
Now I will agree that I think Controllers begin to shine at 32 with pets (the same pets Doms get) and then again at 41+ when the epics unlock. My Dominator has not hit the late game yet so I can't really do a comparison. I do know that I get 2 high damage attacks in the 30s -- Blazing Bolt at 35 and Blaze at 38. I'll take those over Fireblast (which I already have) and Fireball (great AOE but not the greatest of damage). Especially considering I have Breath of Fire already slotted up.
At 22 I have Stamina, and a travel power.
For controls I have the single target hold, the AOE hold, an AOE Sleep (best used for soloing) and an AOE Confuse (the bread and butter). On top of that I have Flares (unslotted), Fire Blast, Breath of Fire and the fire melee attack (I forget the name). It's an outstanding attack chain when combined with Air Superiority.
Arc# 92382 -- "The S.P.I.D.E.R. and the Tyrant" -- Ninjas! Robots! Praetorians! It's totally epic! Play it now!
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It doesnt wash, not with all secondaries at least.
Some controllers make the pets MUCH better which gives them damage edge, or debuffs mob resistance which makes pets more effective. Or in the case of RAD both.
Controllers with the right secondaries start doign more damage post 32. Controllers with the right secondaries and the right epics completly blow away dominators.
The pets get about twice as effective when they are buffed and/or the mobs are debuffed. Rad and Kin give the most boost followed by Emp, TA, Storm. FF and sonic will make very sturdy pets but not always increase damage to some extant they can in that the pets dont die.
Oh yeah thats another thing, the pets are much more resistant to dying for controllers.
Pets are not a wash, controllers are made to support the pets, Dominators are supported by the pets.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
True enough. I had an ill/emp controller and healing my pets made them many times more effective than they would have been otherwise.
I wonder if my Sing realizes that it cant Lift the target that I just Held? 
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My dominators have never been "crappy." Maybe you are just crappy as a dominator?
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Want to address both posts (which may have been done already, as there are pages to go I havent read yet).
its always a little suspect to say maybe they (the player) just arent good. For one reason, they may simply be used to having more power, via having played a stronger AT, which would mean that in comparison doms need boosting. Its always hard to figure out how your favorite toon that seems to do so well is being posted as gimped and crappy by someone else, but this type reply tends to make the posts more about flames than discussion.
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I disagree. This wasn't a flame at all. Players can be crappy at certain AT's. I'm crappy as a brute. Doubt that that is cause to give brutes a "boost" or "overhaul," though.
Maybe it's the adjective used here that is implying some sort of disrespect or flame. But, the OP to whom I responded used the term to begin with, and I quoted it (in making the point that I didn't think dominators were the right choice for her/him).
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We've got a nice tweak to the Domination ability coming down the pipe (it will crank up your Mez resistance while it is active), and are currently data-mining PvP to see what effect our last set of tweaks to the AT have had.
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My problem with this is that you are basically making Domination more uber, but apparently doing nothing for us in the non-Domination time. We'll be in the same position as before. Depressed when Domination expires. You say it yourself that you are "disappointed at hearing the sound effect of it wearing off" and this condition WILL NOT CHANGE by making Domination better.
Status protection we can all get behind. But we need a better non-Domination experience here. Are there _any_ positive changes coming down the pike for us when not using Domination? Even getting status protection under the influence of Domination isn't making me want to play my Dominators again - if my non-Domination experience hasn't improved. Because I am just plodding through the game when I am waiting for it to come back up.
Please help.
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Wow. The way you put it, domination has the recharge of an accolade, or maybe an Elude or Overload type of power?
It recharges in 200 seconds - faster with hasten - and it is recharging while you have it in use!
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If you don't have Domination running you do sad damage and can't hold bosses (until 18 at earliest, and then there's the slow recharge rate of your AoE hold to contend with).
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You can't hold a boss without domination or your AoE hold?
I can see why you don't like dominators...
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Seriously, where does this stuff keep coming from? I didn't even take my AoE hold and I can keep non-triangle Elite Bosses held indefinitely without Domination... Bosses are only a threat for about 5 seconds.
Well, just a little success story.
I am lvl 31 now Gravity/Ice (4 bars before 32!!!) and I teamed up with two other lvl 32 MMs, Robot and Necro. They are husband and wife.
Anyway, we were in Nerva doing some newspaper mish and the wife (Necro MM) said when I join them (we play pretty regularly now), the fight becomes a lot more "smoother". Then we were fighting some bosses and the husband (the Robot MM who doesn't give much compliments) said "Wow, you are a good dominator!" hehe
Now I feel sooooooooo good. I tried my best to play a good Dominator. I saved my special Domination just for that boss. I held him for the entire fight while wormholing foes around him (I have Hasten now)... and I even used Dimenion Shift to save MMs when we got ambused right at the entrance. They said that was a "smart move". lol
Dominator ain't bad... just needs more work and some twist. The new improvement on mez protection is really good. I don't know how many time I get knocked back/down trying to get close to fight.. ugh.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Seriously, where does this stuff keep coming from? I didn't even take my AoE hold and I can keep non-triangle Elite Bosses held indefinitely without Domination... Bosses are only a threat for about 5 seconds.
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Maybe he's fighting a lot of Arachnos? Wolf Spider Huntsman have a mez protection of 8; it takes two Domination holds to stop them. Fortunatas seem to be just as bad, and you fight a lot of these guys in the low-to-mid levels.
Everything else, though, I agree. Longbow Officers aren't that hard to pin down at all. Heck, depending on your power choices, holds aren't even strictly necessary. There's a lot to be said for soft control.
I should start getting onto Teamspeak just so I can blast the Super Mario Bros. invincibility theme everytime I run Domination.
Arc #41077 - The Men of State
Arc #48845 - Operation: Dirty Snowball
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If you don't have Domination running you do sad damage and can't hold bosses (until 18 at earliest, and then there's the slow recharge rate of your AoE hold to contend with).
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You can't hold a boss without domination or your AoE hold?
I can see why you don't like dominators...
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Seriously, where does this stuff keep coming from? I didn't even take my AoE hold and I can keep non-triangle Elite Bosses held indefinitely without Domination... Bosses are only a threat for about 5 seconds.
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Really not sure where this comes from as a Mind/psi bosses are easy to lock down.
Dominate -> levitate -> mesmerize -> dominate
Then I just spam dominate as often as it's up, while kicking the crap out of them.
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I've said this before and I'll say it again...the key with the Dominators is the melee attacks. The bulk of the damage is there. My dominator, hitting an even level mob with no fire resistance in melee does 85 damage at level 22.
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My Fire/Ice dom is level 22, and at this point I'm hardly using my melee attacks even though I only have 2 blast powers. I find that the melee attacks just slow me down.
My technique soloing is to use TP Foe to pull a mob to me, then I spam Char, Ice Bolt, and Ice Blast until the mob is dead. By the time the first mob is dead, TP Foe is up again and I tp the next one. If I get 2 of the 3, or all three, aggroed, I have to use Char to hold the others and so can't use it as part of my attack chain on the mob I'm attacking. That's the only time I use Air Superiority or Ice Sword.
This method allows me to go through a mission constantly attacking, so that I build domination fast, and yet I take almost no damage. An added benefit is that I also don't run dry on end, even though Stamina just has 1 DO in it now. (Each blast power has 1 DO end red). I can either pop Domination pretty much every time it's up, and during it's duration I can mow through a couple groups without pulling, or I can save Domination for the last room. Right now I'm still on Villainous, but think I could go to Vicious easily.
So, I don't think that melee is the only way to play. It's certainly one option, but I have found that Ice Sword just slows me down because of its end usage. Also, the animations of Ice Sword and Air Sup, while they seem pretty fast, are actually slow enough to slow down my attack chain when I use them as part of the regular chain. My chain of Char, Ice Bolt, Ice Blast has a couple of short gaps, but not enough to fit one of the melee powers in, and those gaps should go away once I get Stamina slotted out and then swap out the end red in my blasts for an SO recharge.
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This is great 'cause I always save my Domination for bosses and if I have good mez protection, I can at least survive better since I have Aid Self to prolong the fights. Good job
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I just want to point out a thing to my fellow Dominators.
My first dominator, now lvl 50, was lucky enough to be what i myself consider the best build: Plant/Fire. I consider Plant to be the best control, and Fire to be the best damage, so i admit, i had an easy ride to 50, soloing on ruthless. And i did like you. I "saved" domination for hard fights.
In the last levels, i changed my play style. I stopped using Domination only for Bosses, and i started using it as soon as it was ready. Remember, domination is not just better holds. It's also better damage, and a full endurance bar. (and soon mez protection).
I was definitly surprised at how often it was ready. I had not noticed the recharge reduction, since i used it only for the mission's end boss, but after using it all the time, wow. We are talking 5-6 dominations per Mayhems. With Hasten, it's really nice.
Now that i've started a new dominator (fire/energy), i noticed that this new way to play makes me a lot more efficient. I do missions a lot faster. Sure, sometimes, i get to the boss and domination is down. Oh well, i pop 1-2 inspiration, perma hold the boss, and kill it, or at least build dom on it.
So, ya, my new dominator advice? Use domination as soon as it's up. If your team has 2 doms, they can alternate, it will almost always be ready.
Now, if only those AoE holds would recharge faster....