Dahjee

I vote yes! Yes they should!

Also... from reading this thread I can see that I'm starting to rub off on some of yous.

On Topic: LOL @ Stalkity Stalkers in SC.

To the OP: In the future... I'd encourage you to start a thread that requests advice on dealing with the change... before making one that assumes the change is incapable of being dealt with.

So...

Basically you're asking for something just to ask... since you know full well that what you ask for won't solve the problems with PvP?

Personally, I'm happy the Devs have better sense than to go around "flippin switches" just because they can. I'm guessing more thought is being put into the matter than what seems to have been put into the opinions in this thread.

Believe it or not... doing what's easiest and doing what's best are not always the same thing. Forgive me but I come across way too many PvP'ers in this game that don't realize this.

Yes.

PvP'ers have been dumbed down enough already. Removing TS and HD would only dumb them down even more. I13 was a change some chose to deal with while others chose to dwell on.

Do you honestly think that people will respec out of phase or stop sitting at their base if TS and HD is removed? What real difference will it make other than making evasion easier and kiting/jousting less hard to do? Don't say it will be more fun... because we all know that having fun is not dependant on a system or a system's mechanics. We've all suffered through nerfs and changes... adjusted to them and continued to have fun regardless.

Do you realize that removing these two mechanics will only lead to cries to revert mez back to the way it was, or to change slows back to how they were? Do you realize what would happen if TS and HD are removed and these two factors are not changed?? Are you looking at the big picture here or simply out of the window closest to your view?

Have you considered what the removal of TS and HD would really look like given everything that has been added to the game since I13? (Even Afterburner would be considered OP lol.)

I could go on, but truth is Hemmy, you don't want to listen to legitamate reasons to keep things the way they are. You want to feel justified in being bad under the current system and find others who are looking to feel the same.

Moving on to the next...

Please. Who are you trying to fool here?

You wouldn't be crying for change in zones unless it was gonna make you feel better about your level of skill in this game. You resent the fact that despite all your hard work and uber builds... you will still get wrecked by two or three noobs in a zone that have a basic understanding of TS. Stop pretending this isn't the case when it is basically the whole argumenent behind removing TSand HD. That and the fact that you find these mechanics "Un-Fun" which to me is laughable considering you still subscribe to the game.

Well... it's un fun because you forgot to improve, and you didn't think to improve because you let some other fool convince you that tatctics went away and that all you had to do was spam damage... and phase when someone tried to spam damage on you.

Really? Statements like that should make it obvious to others that you are either clueless about PvP in general, Bad at PVPing, incapable of speaking for the PvP community, or all of the above.

Really? Let me guess... If that doesn't work you just move on to a target that it will work on or run back to base right? LOL Yes I know your type. You've been programmed very well and although it is sad to see... I can't help but laugh a little at the way you see the system.

Ah Nice. A bit of truth in this statement. As I've pointed out many times before now... you continue to evade the same way you did before I13... even those it is less effective, and instead of doing something differently... you choose to continue evading the same way while accepting the fact that you will die against more than one or two.

I can't begin to see why I'm the only person who finds this approach stupid at best.

Just so you know I supported the way things were before they changed them in 2008. I was happy and enjoying my PvP experience and did not want the whiners to get their way and make me have to adjust the way I had come to like. In case you haven't noiced by now... I'm doing the same thing now all over again.

Moving on to the next...

See what you did there... you believe that you and all others were forced into phase/hiber. That is a fact to you. I don't believe that. It was a choice. I chose to on some toons, and on others I made sure I played them well enough and smart enough to not require either.
So here you're saying that you did indirectly address all of my questions... but not this one... because not many peeps used it 3+ years ago? So no reason to think of the implications going forward I suppose?

LOL If it doesn't work anymore then it's not good (enough). What you are saying is that Once upon a time a certain level of skill worked but now it doesn't and that the same skill level is still considered good? HaHaHahaha! What world are you living in? TS/HD manages to destroy the effectiveness of Bad evasion and Poor offense. Good evasion and Smart offense is the kind that works isn't it? There are people capable of both under the current system. It's becoming glaringly obvious however that many of them are not in this thread.

You're right. That doesn't make any sense. It seems that way to many that were good Pre-I13 continued to PvP the same way after I13... instead of actually getting better. So bad players being capable of the same now make the good players of old look... just as bad. They then want to blame this outcome on the system instead of their selves. Go figure. For what it's worth I tried to warn you guys this would happen.

Changes to the game continue to trickle down into our little PvP world, but without people within this community willing to step up, and acknowledge them, all there is to do is repeat the same tired old excuses for being subpar in a zone under TS/HD conditions. There used to be a time when the "Good" were separated from the "Bad" because they could achieve the same results as others without needing the same tools to do the job. A time when "making XX/YY work" was more impressive than simply going with XX/YY because it was known to work. There are no PvP guides anymore... For example not one of the people in this thread could make a guide on how to make a Blaster secondary besides /EM or /Dev actually work. (but everyone is praised for believing that no other blaster secondary can work.) There are no events that encourage PvP in a zone.. (or any other guide for that matter besides a MIDS build which doesn't count lol) No leagues that encourage arena PvP below level 50, or any that has a different set of rules, or one that calls specifically for SO builds etc...

After I13 it's like we were left only with a copy of a copy in terms of what one considers "skilled" and "good" players. They certainly don’t make’em like they used to, and as I mentioned earlier, I understand the current system as well as anyone in this thread, and I've been around long enough to know exactly what has happened prior to and after I13 released years ago.

Ok, let me point this out real quick because others have started to use this same train of thought (aka excuse for a lack of skill). When PvP started in this game there was no Villains, no IOs, and obviously no Incarnates. If you wanted to use damage as a main means to defeat your foe you used a Blaster or you used a Scrapper. Otherwise you used your primary function whether it be buff, debuff, control, or Defense/Resistance as a means to overcome your opponenent’s damage ouput… eventually. The performance of the damage dealers, and the boasting of those who chose to go that route lead to the popularity of damage dealing ATs, not the mechanics of the PvP system. Those who wanted more of a challenge and/or grew tired of the easy mode became skilled at using the primary function of non-damage dealers to achieve what most would have found too difficult to do. You want me to believe that currently one should not even attempt to step outside or above the mold and do without… that one can be skilled simply by getting a kill and using an AT designed and specc’ed to do damage to do so. You’d have myself and others accept that all non damage dealing ATs and their contributions to battle are useless if not for healing?

“Keeping TS from getting you killed” should have been the title to a PvP guide written long ago. Surely I’m not the only one who uses a debuff toggle to affect a group of NPCs and cause aggro on the toggle user… I cannot be the only person who uses a jetpack to create distance and avoid attacks or knows how to use a corner of a building to cancel Line of Sight. “Keeping TS from getting you killed” should have been the title to a PvP guide written long ago… but it seems no one here ever figured it out enough to share. So the complaining continues. Why was this such a simple mechanic for me to overcome? “TS happens when I do X,Y, and Z…” “I will try not to do X,Y and Z as much during combat.” I had to think more, and try harder to achieve the same results as before… and I liked that about the change. If Simple =! Better… then I must ask you why you choose to PvP so simply? Why do you consider yourself skilled for doing so?

Nice… but here’s the thing.
You see if I’m happy with the current system and you are not. There is absolutely no reason for me to listen or try to understand what you have to say on the matter. The book of common sense says however, that if you are unhappy with the system and come across someone who isn’t… then you should take the time to figure out why they are content, if you yourself wish to feel the same as they do. I'm sharing my veiwpoint to help you get to where I am you see.

One of the biggest contradictions you all spew is how in one breath you can say that certain roles, certain builds, and certain buffs are rendered useless under the current system, and in the next breath say that tactics and strategies are rendered useless as well. There is always a way to make things work. However when you take away the people that like to figure those things out you’re left with people like you… who could never consider the possibility of overcoming the challenges that TS and HD obviously impose on you.

Moving on to the next…

So you are saying that in PvP's current version... PvP'ers have taken a "Phase or Die" approach to zone pvp in which without a phase power evasion is nearly impossible, and with a phase power evasion is... more possible... easier? That's what I'm saying too. Without TS and HD people in zones would not have to rely on these powers as much due to the fact that they would not be suppressed, the fact that they could spam heals, and they could evade better and die less. At the same time however, this all implies that with TS and HD in tact as it is today... PvP requires better tactics than before, better strategies than before, better insp management than before, more situational awareness than before, more skill than before, and a greater knowledge of how to evade than required before I13. In it's current form PvP also requires one to first reduce their emphasis on simple damage output to recognize and/or accept the above statements as true. (I bolded yours to make mine: See Points)
I said a Good Teleporter. It's ok if you never came across one back in the day.
Ironically Xanatos, everything needed to change my mind would end up changing yours first. Common ground doesn't occur between two people who both think they are right trying to convince the other... it occurs when both sides think they are wrong and question the other for understanding. You tell me I'm wrong. I ask you to tell me why you're right. Big difference in my approah and many here is all. I made the first step towards agreement a very long time ago.

Hey I'm just pointing out contradictions is all. You forgot to address any of them by the way. I asked why do you think Phase and Hiber are required in PvP builds now... if not to ease and allow more effective evasion under post I13 mechanics. I asked you to consider the effects of unsuppressed teleportation without TS/HD in a zone, and I pointed out that playstyle/enviroment has a greater effect than mechanics in regards to kill count in arena versus zone.

I don't think I talked about anything you just brought up. Nothing is hard in this game by the way.

That doesn't hold up. If you're enemy knows that there is no where safe to go like a base, then their entire playstyle can be vastly different than if they know that there is indeed a drone to hide behind. I don't see how one can even begin to think that the screenies put up as proof indicate anything substantial in terms of what removing TS and HD from zones would do. Especially because in my humble opinion... most perpectives revolve around ss/sj'ers. A person might easily think that getting kills in an open zone without TS and HD would be as viable than with TSand HD in tact... but I'd bet those same peeps never came across a good teleporter before I13 in a zone.

Ahhh. the good ol'days. TP and a handful of greens = lol no I won't die to the 16 of you because I've TP'ed and popped green insp 700ft away in only just a few seconds.
If I remember correctly. People were advocating the suppression of TP in some form or another long before I13 came around. They were doing so for good reason... and I say that as an avid TP/Fly PvP'er.

At best removing these two mechanics would just allow peeps to respec out of phase and Hibernoob. Simply because they'd get away as easily as they do having those "type of powers" now. BTW this point is brought to you by a much more subtle point... So I ask humbly and with ALL due respect... someone to share your thoughts to this question:

If removing HD and TS woulde not greatly increase the survivability and ability to evade in zones... then why exactly is it almost universialy suggested to have phase and/or Hibernate in a PvP build post-I13?

I come from a school when then the best of the best were those that laughed at peeps for taking and /or needing them... only to watch what became the best of the best cherish these powers and condemn anyone who called them a "crutch."

What! NO! Don't suggest that!

More robots please. Newbies must know that their way is "The Way". and I make all my moneys off of the bad psy/ems theyve been sending me!

lol seroiusly though (Like they would ever consider such sound advice)

First you said ( In your OP) that Zwill asked how you would feel if they were removed... Then you said he simply asked what you all wanted, as if to start a poll. Which one is it exactly? I wasn't there

You hated the system First... and began to understand why Second? That's not what most would call a good start to a logical reason. To clarify... this is because you obviously never overcame the change to began thinking objectively instead of subjectively based on your experience.

I agree there are many reasons given for the removal of HD and TS. What I'm trying to get across is the fact most of these reasons were based on personal PvP experience and perspectives similar to yours... So no. I'm not convinced and I'm just a player like you, while the devs are devlopers and ultimately resposible for making changes.

Finally Hemmingway3, You stated that this discussion IS a two sided debate earlier (missing my point in the process btw) and now you're saying that those against the removal do not belong in this thread... yet when my first response to you stated: You disageed? When this is indeed what your OP is aimed at right? No? Which one? Keep in mind this is my first appearance in a thread in 6 or so months... so no. I'm not trolling your thread. I have as great a desire in seeing PvP improve as anyone here I'm sure. My voice is simply to point the way in which too many are attempting bring about change and point out the fact if done a bit differently some might actually see that less change is needed as they may have origibnally thought. Simply put. You cannot prove a tool is ineffective when you express an open and obvious lack of desire to use it for it's inteneded prupose.

Lol Xan... I know this game and how to work it far better than you could ever hope too. There is no need for my name to appear every other thread you post simply because you're envious and/or bitter. Yes. It does show (In case you are wondering.)

This is a myth. Perpetuated by bad Melee toons that wouldn't know how to use LoS to counter range and close to melee if their... well I suppose there is no way for them to know that lol. Blame it on the Devs though... certainly not the super smart PvPers left among us.

Another example of poor tactics... At some point one has to consider whatever faulty attempt lead to the gangbang and stop trying to do it the same way.... over and over... under the current system and its mechanics.

Yet again... The skill is found in overcoming the difficulties and finding ways to overcome them... Refusing to do so simply leads to trying to make so many of the old combos work as well as before, being dissapointed in their efectiveness, or being handcuffed to scenarios where are just as effective. (See: TS/HD turned off)

Fix't


LOL Don't worry about it Mac... my post is Tl;DR already. Besides I'm sure you're happy where you are.

Keep the screenies and videos coming by the way. There is so much pruf in them it's not even funny! Actually though, it is to me considering being given names I recognize and remember from RV is priceless to see, and almost makes me want TS and HD removed from zones too! (Out of Pity that is)

Hi again OP.

You should accept the fact that just because you agree with something a poster types does not mean it is a valid, sound, and logical explanation. Based on your statements... you seem to be quite incapable of recognizing when a person is stating a pesonal preference.

What makes matters worse... is that the question posed by Zwilliger as you put is specifically asking for a personal preference. He did ask how it would make us feel right? Have you answered your own OP? Have you instead skipped the answer and used your personal preference to campaign to others to feel the same as you??

Also, the other point you're trying to make wasn't supposed to be that debatable... If the devs obviously and currently plan on keeping things as they are and have been, there isn't much reason for players to ask them to keep it that way is there?

I believe a more correct way to put this is that the players under the current system favor raw damage output and zerging. A big difference when you take the time to think about it.

My argument is not flawed. Your reading comprehension is lacking is all.

First of all I did not make an argument stating that a majority of PvPers are against the removal of TS and HD. This alone makes the rest of that paragraph dumb sorry to say. Read my post carfully and you'll find that my point was that it is difficult to prove that the vast majority are for the change simply becasue the vast majority do not play with those settings.

Second of all I did not state that HD and TS should not be changed because they've been in place for so long. Again you are simply failing to comprehend. My point here was that these mechanics are old enough that the only side that really has to provde valid, sound, and logical reason is the side that wants it to be removed. Unfortunately, opinions based on personal preferences don't provde this.

Lastly, I could care less if the system changed. It was changed before by a bunch of whiners, and if change occurs again... it will be for the same reason and very likely lead to the same result. I'll be enjoying myself regardless simply because I do not depend on a ruleset to enjoy PvP. I understand these mechanics as well as anyone here and made my peace with them about 2 weeks after I13 was released.

This thread is about the specific mechanics of HD and TS, and as you know we have a choice to either Zone with then in place or go to Arena and turn them off. Many people in this very thread prefer to PvP without those settings and have a better PvP experience by doing Arena with HD/TS turned off... but you want me to think that most players aren't capable of choosing to do the same? If this is what you're saying then it actually places everyone who does prefer "no HD/TS Arena" over Zone PvP into an even smaller group...making it even harder for any of them to represent the wants of the entire community.


There are indeed a few trolls in this thread. I'm not one of them though so try harder peeps.

I'm not sure why you're having a hard time understanding what I type. I'm certain however, that this issue lies with you and not me. You seem to dodge my arguement at all costs, and use Zwillinger's question to you and others as an excuse. Did he tell you to make a forum post about it too?

The mechanics have been horrible to you for three years... not me. I'm quite content tyvm. Trying to prove why you should be enjoying them as I do is as silly as you trying to prove why I shoudn't be. It is you claiming that your argument is factual when such is not the case. Every single claim and reason given for the removal of TS and HD so far in this thread have been simple opinions based of a person's definition of fun basically, and the closest argument to the contrary are those that point out the obvious fact that so many left and quit PvPing after I13.

This topic is old. It's very old. It was not brought up by Zwillinger. You happen to be in a conversation where he he asked a hypothetical question on the matter, and you should calm down about it really.

Hey I made some pretty valid points on the matter without trying much, but it seems that what the OP really wants is basically everyone to agree that the removal of TS and HD would be great in order to support the claim that the "vast majority" all feel the same... but truth is the vast majority doesn't.

Such a claim would lead one to think that arena is more popular than zones because it does not require TS and HD... that the vast majority of PvPers spend all their time doing KBs and avoid zone due to zone mechanics.... but this is far from the case. Why is that?

Also...as I've pointed out a few times now, we're talking about almost 3 year old mechanics! You're actually requesting people to give "valid logical reasons" to keep them in the game? I believe removal of these mechanics is what needs reason and valid proof... especially since you have the option to PvP without them, and sorry to say but I seriously doubt that basing all reason behind your defintion of "fun" is enough.

A decent and much avoided point you hit on.

In my opinion dual builds was a either a bone thrown to PvP'ers or a coincedence (I think not) that it came in I13 as well.

Unfortunately, some will consider their build and playstyle to be so super good, that they should not have to switch either their playstyle or build to compete when put into a different setting or set of rules.

It works both ways. We only seem to hear of one though.

I did read your OP, and I gave you feedback on the matter. You seem to be campaigning against something that you have the option to avoid.

Regardless of how strongly you may feel on the subject...the best you can really offer here is your opinion. I simply compared your opinon to a few other things that people can spit opinions on... Sorry to say, but your OP is not terribly different than a PvPer getting droned reapeatedly only to complain about the drone or the droner... instead of simply avoiding both.

Still bitter X?

Makes about as much sense as assuming everyone who doesn't like the current system are all bad unless they arena with TS and HD turned off.

Unless a person has been stuck in a box for a few years... TS and HD shouldn't be an issue or have that much of an impact on one's PvP experience.

Complaining about it these days is no differrent than whining about phase, hibernate, inspirations, Psy/Ems and KM/ scrappers.

Bottomline is if you don't like TS and HD (as another poster pointed out) then just stick to arena where you have the option to PvP without them.

Overall knowledge of course not. Knowledge of this game I think it's safe to say that they don't share with us everything they know. If you know of a paying customer to this game that happens to know what is to come in I26, for example... let me know. Maybe there are are paying customers that know what day I20 is scheduled for live, but I doubt any of us know as much about this game than the developers, programmers, etc...

The put the point that you missed in analogy form. I have more knowledge of my kids than you. I do not necessarily have more knowledge of children than you... but I know more about My kids than you.

I agree the devs are not all knowing and incapable of making mistakes.

Yes, she IS just a paying customer. She just happens to be a paying customer that actually deserves a paycheck from Paragon, lol. I do not consider myself "inferior" because I know less about the game than a Dev, or because I am a paying customer. I'm not even sure where that came from... u got issues perhaps?

Is this really what passes for facts now a days? Very sad indeed you think this way.

I agree. To me they are simply changes to the game overall, that happen to affect PvP in a positive way. Subtle... meaning there for anyone willing to take advantage of it as opposed to forced change put on everyone... you know.... like the change most people are still crying about today from 2008.

bleh. Yeah that was rather nitpicky there. Like there's still a bug... so what? Is that really that hard to get over to you? Being vunerable to a particular set is pretty fair if you ask me as long as there are ways to counter it. Too bad /Kins are useless...lol Knockback. Hibernate is now OP because its on a scrapper? The game is broke now cause a /regen can hibernoob?? You seem to making excuses to justify how you feel... Either that you clearly have some practicing to do.

Yeah this is what I meant by I'm not-so-serious. I don't care about this. I PAY to play this game... I'm not being paid to fix it or make it perfect. If something is broke, then I expect the people who are paid to fix it to do their jobs... when and how that happens is not of my concern. If something is OP then I avoid it, or counter it. Simply as that. At the same time I'll be having fun and taking advantage of whatever helps my toons to be better. Some get their jollies form convincing themselves that they are more important than they really are... You want go to test and be asked to tell the devs what to do because your a PVPer, and you know what is best for PvP! I can understand that... but truth is you don't. If you did, you'd possibly be working at paragon as a dev... but alas you are just like me. A paying customer. The difference being that I am currently a satisfied one, while you are spending your 15 bucks to nitpick.

Yes sure. You keep believeing that it's too hard for them to add DR numbers to combat attributes tab. It's not a coincedence... you of course will not think otherwise so there isn't a point in me elaborating. Again... what I like about it is that for me it encourages me to try and see for myself what is worth doing and not doing. Trial and error: You know that thing we used to do back in the day that made us get better at what we do?


Absolutely Nothing?? See this why some of you probably come across as fools to peeps that set up this system. They do the same thing mez portection does in PvP, which is reduce duration. When facing a toon who has sacraficed and/or invested much to get long lasting mez, BFs can be quite useful. BFs also deal with other effects besides hard controls... Taunt comes to mind.

Ok so with HD off and not having to count at all requires more or less skill? Simple counting may be easy... but it was enough to turn most away from their healers for a long time wasn't it? Simple counting is enough to make you turn HD off whenever you have the option... isn't it? Or is this the part where you tell me that you do so because counting isn't fun?

Doing the same things the same way and expecting different results is stupid. I'd rather not be a part of it. You could run 20 leagues the same as those ran this year and change nothing, or actually think about what would be best to get more PvPers in... run one league and change it all for the better. Call me when you're interested in discussing how. Yes. Sacraficing your way of play will be required... but you wouldn't be down for that would you... more of the same and you want to call it progress... spare me plz.

Simply Put. You're confusing something not being fixed that you want fixed now with something that is ignored. That's your bad. As long as you choose to look at it that way you will be unhappy. My 7 year old daughter feels the same way sometimes, but I admit I've spoiled her a bit.

If you want balance then create it! Did the leagues you speak of want balance, or were they ok with 5 blasters per team? Are your toons balanced, or do you optimize for just damage, HP, and Rech? You skipped all your AoEs right? You wouldn;t want a useless Kin on your 8 man team right? Give me a break. Most of us couldn''t see balance in this games PvP system if our lives depended on it. The very nature of PvP will convince most that sometthing is always put of balance. Do not pretend to preach balance based on YOUR experience. Claiming to know what needs to be done without the tech to actually datamine what everyone is doing is absurd. "But Dahjee! I was in a PvP team and with did a tournament! I know what would balance PvP for everyone!!!!!!!!" Really? The current system has potential for balance... which is the best we can hope for. I am thankful we have what we have.

Another nitpick here... what does "more possible" mean in this case? It's possible, period. Whats funny is that people regrded zone the same as arena after I13. All was bad... this was useless, etc... Ironically though, once it was discovered that anything can do well in a zone... the "good" players decided to flee the zones and almost overnight... zone PvP becamae a bad word as if it became worse because you could be killed even by less than optimized or skilled players.

little use to who? To you or to everyone that every PvPs. My /SR loves sonic shields! My /FF troller doesn't have def buffs to offer... it has a lot more to bennefit a team and itself than relying on def aa a squishy. If all you see in FF/ is def buffs... again that's your bad. Same for any powerset that you find no use to you and your playstlye.

Read my sig. It hasn't changed in 5 years. "Ineffective" is the fault of the user. A guy asked me the other day what the trick was to playing /sr after seeing mine dance around in RV... After seeing his, my answer was to stop playing it like a /regen. If you look at all your PvP toons' builds... and see that every one is spec'ed to play the same way you will sure eliminate 1/4 or more effective sets as an option for you to pvp with. Go on... look at them. Do they ALL have ss/sj/acro? Do they all have phase/hibernate? Do you literally play them all the same melee style or ranged as they may be? If the answer is yes... then this is why you are dissatisfied with your experience more than I am.

Ha! More Irony. I'm the arogant one right? But you're the one telling the devs how to fix their game because you know better. That's rich. I'm the one enjoying my pvp experience while you seem less than satisfied... but I should be listening to you tell me why I'm somehow wrong for doing do. Whether You want to admit it or not. I am one of the guys who have spent hours upon hours leveling and testing out different methods and finding new ways to x,y, and z. Yet, I'm full of myself because I don't come to the boards spewwing what others should roll and not take and avoid because it's useless and so on. No... the peeps that do that I suppose are the humble ones who know and beleive they know no better than anyone else, right? Pfft Get over myself. Look around you.

The irony here is deeper than usual. Now you know what the Devs thinking about some of us. ir gd arnt I?

I am a part of this community and have been for years. Your welcome.

Ah, this is what it boils down to in my head because it pops up in every thread that has I13 and PvP in any post within. You wanted this. You got that, and no matter what comes you wont be happy unless you get your way on something so your pride as a skilled and knowledgable pvper can be restored.

I think they get that by now... it's ok to be happy.