Do dominators suck like people say they do?
By
Aleshanee_NA,
Posted on: 2006-07-05 13:59 in Dominators
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How the heck is this thread still going on?
[/ QUOTE ] A somewhat open-ended question, on an issue people have strong feelings about, when developers have posted their impressions and given some details about an upcoming boost to an AT?
A better question is "what would it take to kill it?", because that'd be harder than keeping it going.
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As someone with several controllers, and several more doms, I can't do anything but completely disagree with you, at least in my case. I'd despise it if my Dom was saddled with a support secondary. The best day my controller ever had was the one where she had Fire Sword as a temp power.
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It depends on if you're a Controller who mostly solos and doesn't(yet) have a damaging pet. If my Fire/Storm Controller was given Dom attacks as a bonus, I'd never use them. I'm too busy healing my Imps and keeping the mobs held and debuffed as my Imps tear through them.
I'd imagine a lot of other Controller fans feel the same way. Which is why Controllers are fairly common and Doms rather rare.
Plant: Takes aggro from SoC or Creepers(Confusion speeds up experience gain)
Fire: Flashfire/AoE immobilize=Ghetto hold. Smoke can cut an Alpha in half from the -perception.
Ice: Ice Slick, AoE sleep
Grav: Wormhole. . . .yeah, grav could use some dev love 
. Not that it's gimped, but why do we need attacks in our primary as a Dom?
Mind: Mass Confusion, Mass Hypn
The simple fact of the matter is that in CoH - buffs are king. Frankly, buffs are overpowerd. People don't invite controllers to their group for control - they invite for the buffs.
Dominators are inevitably compared against controllers and without the buffs people are left thinking "and what do they do for us again...?"
There is also a basic problem due to the way control powers work. Doms have to be worthless against AVs and GMs - because if they weren't AVs and GMs would be no challenge at all. Control is far to binary in CoV, it's either useless against an opponent - or they're dead.
Ice Patch?
Greatness, but I'v never had the fortune to team with and Ice Dominator before the twenties
Mass Hypnosis?
Useless if your Brute has a damage shield, or if the Corrupter opens with AoE
Flashfire??
The problem is, prior to SO, the recharge is so long you cannot use them regularly.
So, the devs have recreated the Controller issue solved by containment. I just got my Fire/Storm into SO and finally Flashfire is starting to shine, but before it wasn't dependable as an opener, without a END break after every fight (just waiting for it to pop) I even had a bind to tell everyone (No, Flashfire isn't ready yet)
Ice Patch is similar and Gravity...heh, they wish they had Flashfire!!
People sometimes tell me I'm both pessimistic and paranoid but I think that's just because all you optimists are out to get me.
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Actually, by the numbers, Dominators outdamage Controllers until the controllers can pick up the epic pools. Fire Mastery + Containment = sick damage.
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And even if I were to agree with you, is this a good thing? In my experience Controller > Dominator at pretty much every level - but definitely at 41+.
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I would dare say that you're not slotting your Dominator properly then. Early on (pre-level 10) the Controller wins in the damage. They're scary effective at that point where the Dominator will flounder on damage. Once you get around level 10, though, the Controller's damage doesn't scale very well whereas the Dominator's does. Many controllers can boost their damage a bit (dependent upon their secondary -- kinetics and radiation are great for this) but it still won't outshine the Dominator. At 32 they get the same pets, so that's a wash.
I've said this before and I'll say it again...the key with the Dominators is the melee attacks. The bulk of the damage is there. My dominator, hitting an even level mob with no fire resistance in melee does 85 damage at level 22. The attack recharges quickly and uses little END. With Domination it does about 120. You can not name any single controller attack, even with Containment, that does that much damage at that level.
The biggest mistakes I see with people playing Dominators...
1) They rely too much on their controls and don't slot (or even take) their attacks. At that point you're just a weak controller.
2) They ignore their melee attacks and try to play the class as a Defender with holds. (This was a mistake I was making.)
Now I will agree that I think Controllers begin to shine at 32 with pets (the same pets Doms get) and then again at 41+ when the epics unlock. My Dominator has not hit the late game yet so I can't really do a comparison. I do know that I get 2 high damage attacks in the 30s -- Blazing Bolt at 35 and Blaze at 38. I'll take those over Fireblast (which I already have) and Fireball (great AOE but not the greatest of damage). Especially considering I have Breath of Fire already slotted up.
At 22 I have Stamina, and a travel power.
For controls I have the single target hold, the AOE hold, an AOE Sleep (best used for soloing) and an AOE Confuse (the bread and butter). On top of that I have Flares (unslotted), Fire Blast, Breath of Fire and the fire melee attack (I forget the name). It's an outstanding attack chain when combined with Air Superiority.
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hate to say it but at level 22, your still living large on the fact that Blasters in that level range already did great damage. The fact is yes at that range your probably out damaging a troller because you actaully have damage attacks. However by level 41 that is going to be a different story.
For two years the blaster forums have been full of reports that our damage doesnt scale well into the end game. What exactly do you think then happens to blaster attacks that are at 65 percent of there value? Now sure domination make them bearable, however with a troller they get a bigger buff, and really a buff when ever they want it off containment that a dominator doesnt get. Also factor in those self buffs like Fulcrum shift, or rad buff etc, and your talking a serious difference in the power of even those 1-2 epic attacks. And now also under ED you can slot a couple recharges in those attacks and there up a pretty good rate.
Dominators need a Always-on damage buff. Nothing we get or take buffs our damage, so to me remove buff from domination, apply it to our damage all the time and call it even. We dont have containment, buffs in our sets, defiance, scourge etc. That damage level is all we are going to have, just give it and lets get on with being evil.
I agree, Doms are just plain worse compared to Controllers.
But we don't compete with controllers(outside of PvP). What we have to consider is the role of the Dominator in CoV with the 4 other ATs we play with. Can we focus on that more instead of the CoH class comparison?
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I have not played Troller so I can't say for sure but if the dev wants everything to revolve around "Domination", then those of us who choose to play Dominator should try to achieve that goal. If not, maybe Controller is a better choice of AT for you? That's what I am trying to tell myself now.
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Amen! Controllers I love. Domination is like a drug, you want more, you need to keep very busy to get it, but you end up hung-over and broke.
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I agree, Doms are just plain worse compared to Controllers.
But we don't compete with controllers(outside of PvP). What we have to consider is the role of the Dominator in CoV with the 4 other ATs we play with. Can we focus on that more instead of the CoH class comparison?
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However the problem with our Primaries goes back to Controllers, or more specifically the design choices made to shape how Trollers work in the game. Break Frees, Suppression and Purple Triangles were designed and implemented with Controllers in mind. Sure they nuke the Controllers primary, but he has a buff/debuff secondary and damage from either a pet, pools, or APPs. So there was a sort of balance.
Then along came CoV and Dominators. The Dom is supposedly balanced with low damage and low hit points because of his ability to mez his enemies, however that equation falls apart when faced with the game mechanics designed to make the Controller work.
The problem with Dominator holds is the game, not Dominator holds. The issue gets even worse when compared side by side with Corruptors when planning for AVs and PvP.
Basically, on the front of Dominator Primaries, the devs need to come up with game mechanices that reduce, rather than enhance, the binary nature of holds. One idea is the addition of secondary effects to holds that have been suggested multiply times by many people on these forums.
Add some extra damage and it would be a huge step in the right direction.
Dominators don't need mitigation from their secondaries. Even if they did, there's ice (slows), psi (-recharge), and fire and elec (death).
-Talen_Lee commenting on Energy Assault's Utility
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Protection vs. Knockback, Knock Up, Repel, Stun, Sleep, Hold, Immobilize, Confuse and Fear. Pretty much the whole suite.
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Cataloguing, this means that two out of six Hero Archetypes will have some form of major status protection available archetype-wide, namely Tankers and Scrappers, and three out of five Villains will, namely Brutes, Stalkers and Dominators.
Hmm...
Any chance of putting something like this into Defiance to even up the numbers?
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HELL NO.
Come on... like Blasters need any more love. Get real.
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The simple fact of the matter is that in CoH - buffs are king. Frankly, buffs are overpowerd. People don't invite controllers to their group for control - they invite for the buffs.
Dominators are inevitably compared against controllers and without the buffs people are left thinking "and what do they do for us again...?"
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Yeah, I've felt like that a couple of times. The fact of the matter is most of my dominator experience is based on one toon. My Ice/Ice dom is 32. I can safely say it's been an odd ride. Some people like me, some don't. I haven't been playing her much lately simply because it's inordinately difficult to get a team these days; and even harder to get an effective one, and she doesn't solo well. I've noticed a few comments that dominators have a high learning curve; and I'd agree with that, I'm still learning. I've also noticed a few comments that we're worthless against AVs/Heroes. I'm not completely certain of that. It is true I've had virtually no luck mezzing/locking people down under those circumstances (sometimes even with dom up); But I'm beginning to believe it's more effective to slow them then lock them down. I was screwing around in SC once to pass the time between groups, and ended up in a group trying to pull a scrapper down. We weren't having allot of luck until I changed tacks and intentionally went for the slowing effect instead of the mezzing one. Two deaths later the scrapper started trying to ambush/kill me first 
(Safe to say, I would have had NO CHANCE against her unassisted; but that doesn't mean I wasn't able to serve a purpose).
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Ice Patch?
Greatness, but I'v never had the fortune to team with and Ice Dominator before the twenties
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Yea, there aren't many of us. I feel like I can safely say that. I can also say, generally, speaking, of the doms I do meet, most are Plant or Psi; although I have met some other iceys. I meet few to no other Gravs/Fires. Especially once you get beyond Cap. The real weeding out seems to occur mostly once you hit Sharkshead and Nerva. I can also safely say opinions are mixed. Generalizing, Stalkers love me. Simply because I've gotten my tail shot off more then once (I'm most times willing to drop ice patch to open combat); meaning (usually) that they can survive their first assasinate, and I've seen stalkers assist-target on me as much as they can for the extra criticals. Sometimes corruptors like me, in the sense that I've seen them deliberately hold off on mass AoE's until I get some form of root or immobilize down. Which, frankly, is only good sense.
Personally, I'm inclined to think if the AT has any real problems; It's just not a whole lot of fun to play. Safe to say I've gotten to 32 because I'm stubborn; sortof an act of sheer will. Frankly, I was dissapointed when I got there, mainly because of mixed results with Jack Frost. He's saved my hind a couple of times. Other times he's dumber then a sack of oranges; and certainly slower then one.
For the most part, I don't really have any solutions. I imagine my view is colored. My main perspective problem is that my first 50 was an old school controller. Pre-I5. Largely, because of that, controllers in their current form will pretty much always strike me as lame and watered-down; and this stuff the devs keep spewing about how they "worked" to make sure "villain AT's aren't like Hero AT's" strikes me as lame, delusional hooey. Controllers are pale shadows of their former selves, and dominators are watered down controllers. Bland as heck. Really the only reason I believe in them AT-ALL, is they're the closest thing CoV has to a defensive class. Plus, as much as I'd like to be a charge and smash player, I'm just not. As I said, my first 50 was an old school troller, like it or not, I'm just not satisfied unless I'm strategizing, and dominators are definitely one of the classes you have to use your head if you ever want to get out of mercy. So they do have appeal for me, but I'm one of those people who has some sort of innate masochistic need to take the hard road.
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Wow. The way you put it, domination has the recharge of an accolade, or maybe an Elude or Overload type of power?
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No, that's the way you are interpreting it. I am saying that the duration of the non-Domination time we are substandard and that I'd like more improvement there. Too much of a difference between the peak and the valley is my issue.
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It recharges in 200 seconds - faster with hasten - and it is recharging while you have it in use!
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You're not telling me anything I don't know.
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My concern with the whole "Jekyll and Hyde" thing is this. Essentially, this means the team carries you while you build Domination, and then you can repay the favor by carrying the team when you click Domination. OK, sounds like it makes sense on paper.
Only, you don't really have the power to carry the team through anything with Domination that they can't carry themselves through already.
No question, when Domination clicked, you are THE MAN. Even moreso after these changes. But, given the limitations on Domination, what good does being THE MAN have for the team? That's an honest question, not a rhetorical one. I must be missing something. But I don't get what benefit a "Jekyll and Hyde" AT delivers to a team?
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Well we offer control and damage. With Domination it's impressive control and damage. No question. Without Domination, we offer a bit better control, but subpar damage.
I don't think we're that useful outside of Domination.
BTW I do want to agree with some of the others that Dominators are not crappy outside of Domination. I don't think it's accurate to say that. I just feel that our good controls and subpar damage makes us not very appealing to groups. 
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But I don't get what benefit a "Jekyll and Hyde" AT delivers to a team?
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I think that, for this purpose, a Dominator is meant to use Domination as a bail-out measure, and live with 80% control duration as payment for the ability to have that bail-out measure. Rather than using it constantly through the mission.
Do dominators suck like people say they do?
I would imagine the person's dom who made that statement does suck
But there are more than a few who do not
Spines/ D A lvl 50 Scrap, stone/wm lvl 50 tank, Kat/reg lvl 50 Scrap
Grav/Kin lvl 50 Cont, Fire/Enegry lvl 50 Blast
Warshade lvl 50, PB lvl 39, nightwidow lvl 50, crab lvl 42
plant/thorns lvl 50 dom, ice/fire lvl 40 dom, grav/nrg lvl 41 dom
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As someone with several controllers, and several more doms, I can't do anything but completely disagree with you, at least in my case. I'd despise it if my Dom was saddled with a support secondary. The best day my controller ever had was the one where she had Fire Sword as a temp power.
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It depends on if you're a Controller who mostly solos and doesn't(yet) have a damaging pet. If my Fire/Storm Controller was given Dom attacks as a bonus, I'd never use them. I'm too busy healing my Imps and keeping the mobs held and debuffed as my Imps tear through them.
I'd imagine a lot of other Controller fans feel the same way. Which is why Controllers are fairly common and Doms rather rare.
[/ QUOTE ]I have a ball with my illusion/sonic Controller, spawning PA and having sonic disperson and super invis up keeps me alive while solo and PA does plenty of good fire/cold/smash/psi damage, I do not have phantasm yet and I look forward to it.
With my Dom, I do OK while solo, roots+SoC then finish off the remaining with creepers. While teamed I hardly ever use secondary attacks since all other villain ATs do better damage on their blast/melee attacks than Doms do, so I focus on holding and confusing most of the time. Suppose Doms was designed with solo in mind?
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But I don't get what benefit a "Jekyll and Hyde" AT delivers to a team?
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I find my Dominator is most effective for my group when there is another, well played Dom on the team. We can stagger our "Jekyll and Hyde" moments so one of us is ready to dominate every fight. That way a team can get into more of an even flow without moments of total butt-kicking followed by something --uh, less than that.
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Ok after I've calmed myself down a bit, I'm wondering...
Mez resistance or mez protection?
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Protection vs. Knockback, Knock Up, Repel, Stun, Sleep, Hold, Immobilize, Confuse and Fear. Pretty much the whole suite.
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dominators are currently fine for pve. theyre great for teams, adding some damage and a good deal of aggro control when villain teams dont have primary aggro sponges like heroes do.
This change is an "i win -more-" as domination already made it so doms were pretty much an unstoppable force to begin with. nothing stands in the way of dominationed holds except AV's and those werent meant to be solo'ed anyways.
In fun/casual pvp in zones or with pick up arena teams, dominators are fine they way they are with a team as most players dont keep 20 breakfrees or have a pocket emp/thermal/sonic/poison on them at all times.
in competitive pvp, an abundance of mez protection renders even dominationed holds pretty much moot and the single target damage put out by a dominator is so sad compared to a corruptor's blasts. lets not even compare it to containment controller blasts or blaster blasts.
I'm glad that the devs are throwing doms a bone here, but please, devs, give people a reason to play a dom in all aspects of the game (pve, casual pvp and competitive pvp)
either give us a damage boost of some sort or holds that are impossible to get out of (ie: no amount of breakfrees after the 3rd hold). mez protection is the furthest buff id expect dominators to get.. Dr Jeckyll turns into Mr. Hyde.. not Dr. Jeckyll with the equivalent of 4 breakfrees + acrobatics.
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Hey we are on the same server.. Anyways I agree with you... Although I welcome postive buffs it's still NOT enough..
I wanted to point out what positron stated.
"A mild-manner Dominator with a full Domination bar can, at his or her discretion, become an unstoppable machine of destruction and control."
I laughed at the part of UNSTOPPABLE MACHINE of Destruction and CONTROL"
We surely can be stopped we are still sqiushy we can get 2 or 3 shotted by scrappers, controllers, brutes, stalkers etc very EASILY.. SO we surely aren't UNSTOPPABLE. Unless you want to give us High resistance dmg and or defense during domination!!! And while your at it give us more hitpoints to make that resistance meaningful..
Now to the other part "Machine of Destruction and Control"
With domination up we have good control not GREAT we still have to use 2 holds to break thru mez protection. If it was 1 hold then yah i could see us being a Machine.. And people still can use breakfrees.
The destruction part is a really bad assesment.. With domination up we don't have that much more dmg.. It still takes 8 to 10 hits to kill a melee archtype... Give us triple dmg containment DMG when domination is up then I'll agree with your assesment..
Also the nerf on toggle dropping really hurt doms dueling melee archtypes as evidence my duels against stalkers and brutes in the arena in issue 7 has really just bothered the heck out of me.. Doms should of been able to keep two 100% toggle drops..
I hear that devs may be putting in some mez protection when domination is up, but I had said back when patrons were first introduced before I7 hit test that Doms should have gotten some mez shields or a dullpain type power in the patron pool but now Doms got the worst end of the stick getting more blasts and more pets.
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But I don't get what benefit a "Jekyll and Hyde" AT delivers to a team?
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I think that, for this purpose, a Dominator is meant to use Domination as a bail-out measure, and live with 80% control duration as payment for the ability to have that bail-out measure. Rather than using it constantly through the mission.
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So "Hyde" is meant to be a team-bail out. If so, Domination needs to restore the HP bar to 100% as well, or Domination needs to remain up at previous values when the Dom dies. Because, current state, "Hyde" rarely bales a team out of trouble. Once the team is already in trouble, Domination makes a great way for the Dom to sacrifice himself to save the remainder of the team (if they listen when he says run- but they usually don't).
And if Hyde is meant to be beneficial only in bail-out situations, Jekyll needs to be a bit better.
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I agree about Ice Slick, but that is unique to Ice and I have never been in that situation...
I think its the exception rather than the rule
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Not sure, but I use ice slick throughout fights on my ice dom, and they basically do more for a brute than heals, as he never gets hurt to need healing. Slick with hasten and three recharges is basically up about the time its duration is over, so its almost perma, and while up, the mobs attack once in a blue moon. Slick doesnt work on Moo or Knockdown resistant mobs, but I rarely find them other than on EBs/AVs.
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Dominatorr don't enable tanking the way Corruptors can (or multiple brutes or a even a good A/S)
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Depends on the dom, and what they are doing. Ice slick is the best example I have, due to my main being ice/nrg dom. However, fire/fire can throw a bonfire (no alpha, as they are all picking themselves up off the floor), but thats really only good if near a wall or a corner so the mobs stay grouped for AOEs. Flashfire usually isnt a good alpha tactic, as they can often hit you before the stun takes affect, but it is good to eliminate incoming damage from the entire spawn AFTER the alpha.
AOE holds are much better then buffs/debuffs/healing as no one on the team takes any damage at all, but they have such a long recharge that they are rarely able to be used. Sleeps require the team to not use AOEs and only attack the one mob they want to take down next, which is possible but seems to not happen much on PUGs.
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I have never seen a dominator performing good tank support and I admit even my Mind/Fire doesn't really do it--people love to break my mass sleep so I save it for additional mobs, not sleeping the next pack and the next
I don't think Dominators were built that way..If I put my controller targeting a tank and start supporting him it works... If I do the same with my Dominator I get to control something just as the brute kills it, or I get slaughtered for using Melee too close to the Brute
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A dom supports a brute in a different way. One example is if there are two bosses, you hold the boss the brute isnt fighting, cutting the worst damage in the spawn in half. Of course, ice slick will keep both bosses and all lts and minions falling, so it stops all incoming damage to the brute, including the alpha.
Another way a dom supports the brute is by taking out the painful mobs, like sappers. A held sapper is nothing, a damage debuffed sapper can cause a team wipe. Or for another example, holding the succubus so team mates arent confused.
Please dont take this as me saying doms are as good in team support as corruptors, Im not saying as good. They do a great job against regular mobs, which is also when its noticed the least, because the threat level is low. Versus the real threats (GM, AVs, etc), holds dont work very often (maybe 33%), and so they arent worth much.
In fact, if aoe holds went back to being perma and AVs were affected, the poor attempt at control most corruptors have would be laughable. However, with AOE holds around once in a blue moon and AVs ignoring holds anyway, then fearstare is as good or better than a dom's hold. It works good against pukes, and mostly does what a hold can do.
I think this is the basis for part of the problem, that when doms hard controls dont work, we dont have the level of soft control we need.
I am also a little disappointed with the dom ppp's. I thought the same as you, but I guess I'll deal with it. At least the resist shields are there, the rest is ..blah.
Spines/ D A lvl 50 Scrap, stone/wm lvl 50 tank, Kat/reg lvl 50 Scrap
Grav/Kin lvl 50 Cont, Fire/Enegry lvl 50 Blast
Warshade lvl 50, PB lvl 39, nightwidow lvl 50, crab lvl 42
plant/thorns lvl 50 dom, ice/fire lvl 40 dom, grav/nrg lvl 41 dom
I actually think it is going to turn out to be a bad thing that Domination will act like a break free....at least in the fact that it will make you even more inclinded to hold it rather than use it incase you get mezed....
Dominators don't need mitigation from their secondaries. Even if they did, there's ice (slows), psi (-recharge), and fire and elec (death).
-Talen_Lee commenting on Energy Assault's Utility
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its good many don't liek doms-keeps demand high for those who enjoy 'em!
[/ QUOTE ] Where do you play? Maybe I need to move to your server. Demand for Dominators on my server is practically nonexistant. Most parties will take a Dom if they want more people for some reason, but I have never seen a broadcast of "Party LF Dom"
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Liberty, whihc I do consider to be an enlightened server. Its not like "LF for Doms" broadcasts go up-but my requests for teams or flagging for teams get answered as well as any other toons. For me-i guess I suffered through the same issue with Trollers 2+ years ago. No one could figure them out. hard to get teams. Eventually peopel wised up and realized their role. The same is true for doms-people will come around. I am often pivotal on the teams I am on. WIth no realy "tank" there are many brutes afraid to wade in to take the alpha without a good healer on hand. Teams where MMs are the meatshield have no agro control so no one can us ae attacks. Enter the Dom and that all changes. You can do enough lockdown to keep the brute alive and teh Corruptors blasting without significant retaliation. Though DOms on the whole are weaker than controllers-their holds are needed more than ever with the lack of the powerful tanks and healers the heroes have in abundance... Deck, a /dark MM is plenty of healer for most of the teams I run my dom on....
How the heck is this thread still going on?