Malrathad

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Thanks, KL. That's exactly right.

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Bradd, thanks for clarifying that, based on your highest toon being level 33, you do not presume to offer build or tactics advice.

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OK, so what's the proprer procedure for reporting on-going character assassination?

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PMing Cricket.

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This thread seriously needs to be locked. No one is saying anything new...

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I agree, Plant Dominators are gimp and anyone who plays one is a fool.

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... there is no tactic that will make dimension shift any more palatable to my team mates ....

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Not only do Dimension Shift tactics exist; we actually discussed them recently.

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Dimension Shift tactics do exist. Those tactics still fail to bring Dimension Shift on par with many other level 12 skills; when the comparrison point is powers like Telekinesis, Ice Slick, even Flash Fires, Dimension Shift just doesn't live up. You can definitely finesse value out of it, but that's exactly what you're doing: using your own competency to finesse value out of a sub-par power.

Thing is, he's not saying such tactics don't exist, he's saying that even using them the skill both underperforms and annoys. Yes, you can do things like not slot it for intangibility so it leaves bosses unphased and kill them first, or not slot it for accuracy so random portions of the enemy base remain unphased to kill first, and so forth, but you don't have to DO crap like that for other level 12 skills, and in a good team doing crap like that isn't even particularly beneficial, as having to wait for the phase to end is just going to slow you down, and will often actually force you to spend MORE endurance per spawn than you otherwise would, as AOEs that would have hit phased foes fail to. That's the basis of his complaint: not that you can't eek some value out of it, but that the eeked value just plain isn't needed -- and often isn't even WANTED -- by most decent teams. And he's totally right; he's not saying no tactics exist with regards to the skill, he's saying that even employing those tactics his (likely competent) team mates aren't happy with the results, because they only slow a good team down.

Dimension Shift needs to be altered or improved. It's not useless, but it's one of the LEAST USEFUL control skills in the game, and when a skill is both low on utility and high on irritation caused, a change is warranted. Gravity needs more soft control, it needs more team utility, and Dimension Shift is where those points converge. Fix that, tweak Propel somehow to compensate for the fact that Dominators really don't need a slow animating attack in their primary (at least one that does the damage Propel does; it would arguably be of more value if it's damage were to be doubled, as it's the 2x damage that makes it so good for Controllers), and you've got a good set in Gravity.

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I do think the AOE holds recharge is too long, as its up for one or two times/mission, and should be up more than that (IMO), considering that if you slot it three recharge, the duration would be pitiful.

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It's not quite so pronounced with Power Boost, but yeah. Mainly I rely on Terrify for AoE control on teams as Total Domination and Mass Confusion are rarely up when I need them.

The problem is how to change the times on AoE controls without (further) overpowering Controllers.

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I thought this was worth talking about in particular.

This is an important point. Controllers are all ready SO good at team support that making THEIR area controls better would be boarderline retarded; they don't need buffs of any variety. In fact, they probably need to be weakened.

But Dominators share the same skills, so how can we improve Dominators without overpowering Controllers further? The answer is simple: skills of the same name need not function the same way for different ARchetypes that share them. Ice Armor Tankers and Icy Assault Dominators both have Chilling Embrace. The Ice Armor version has -Speed, -Recharge, -Damage. The Dominator version has only -Speed, -Recharge, and it's -Speed and -Recharge are if memory serves stronger than the Tanker version. Same skill, different effects and different levels of power within those effects.

I see no reason why this could not be adopted here, with Dominator area controls being changed while leaving Controller area controls the same. Controllers have both control AND buff/debuff/heal powers to defend theri teams, while Dominators have ONLY control. I don't think it would necessarily be a sin, as such, if our area control powers were up more OFTEN than they currently are. Powers like Terrify, Mass Hypnosis, and so forth are totally fine how they are. Powers like Total Domination, Mass Confusion, and so forth could probably have their recharges reduced for Dominators without it being ridiculously overpowered. Short native durations, miss rates, and target caps will still keep them in line, particularly given the Dominator has no debuffs or buffs to back them up with.

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The other thing is, I think you're badly overestimating how effective -recharge is for damage mitigation. It's nearly useless against +4 Heroes that can one-shot any of your party members.

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Nearly useless on it's own; in cooperation with -tohit and -damage it's actually incredibly effective.

While I definitely feel Dominators get the short end of the stick on this issue, I don't want to understate their capabilities. -Recharge is an excellent addition to a team setup, it's just the equivalent of Sonic Resonance for Corruptors: it makes a good setup better, rather than carrying the team on it's own.

-Recharge is big damage mitigation over time, it just needs to be working in cooperation with other debuffs to realize it's potential against +4 Archvillains.

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The problem is if you lock down a group of MOBs, you are going to do damage to them at almost ZERO risk.

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You mean sort of like a Sonic Blaster using Siren's Song to put an entire group to sleep, then using his superior damage to kill them one at a time? Sort of exactly like that?

I don't remember Sonic Blasters ever being called "too good," yet they do exactly what you're describing: they lock down a group then pick it apart. They have a single target stun that can even be used to ensure the one enemy they're fighting at any given time can't fight back; the only reason they might not USE it on each enemy is that each enemy dies SO fast that it's a waste of time.

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Sonic blasters are good, and I'm not going to debate that. Compared to the rest of the AT, they lack some of the tools other blasters receive. Oh, and that AOE sleep isn't too effective on bosses.

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1) They lack ONE tool the others get: a snipe. They have a single target control, they have area effects, they have a good single target attack chain. All they meaningfully sacrifice is a snipe.

2) While the sleep isn't effective on a boss, Screech + a stun from your secondary IS, and many Blasters take stun-capable secondaries. An A Sonic/Energy Manipulation Blaster solos just as safely as any Dominator, and much faster. In fact, he probably holds the boss faster than you do in many situations, as he can chain 2 stuns immediately without having to burn a long-term cooldown like an area effect hold (and that ignores that a Blaster's Total Focus can stun a boss in one hit according to many; I don't have first hand knowledge of that so I'm not going to make it a primary part of my case, but if it IS true it COMPLETELY blows your case out of the water with regards to bosses, as they can solo them with casual ease).

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My sonic blaster can NOT do that.

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He can if he's EM. Or Devices. Those are probably the two most popular secondaries. Remember, all we're doing is giving an example of what Dominators would be that's all ready in the game; it doesn't matter how specific we have to get.

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My dominator can deal with Elite Bosses with Domination up much more easily than a sonic blaster can.

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Not if he has purple triangles he can't, which many Elite Bosses do now a days; the vast majority of the time your holds will be negated in that situation, while his damage never is.

So there are a select few Elite Boss fights in which your Dominator ARUABLY has it safer; that's the best you can argue. And there are purples for those situations, meaning the Blaster really doesn't have a problem with it at all (I can't imagine a Blaster doing hit and run against an Elite Boss instead of just using a few purples honestly, it's silly).

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So your point seems to be "some characters are good at some things but not as good at other things." We already knew that, though.

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No, my point is overall, Sonic/Energy Blasters will solo just as safely as a Dominator, and much faster. And further, against MOST Elite Bosses (e.g. the ones with the triangles, which are currently in the majority), the Blaster will actually have an EASIER time than the Dominator, as their high damage isn't negated the way holds are.

As I said, if there's a REASON Dominators can't have high damage, your risk explanation just isn't it. There may well BE a reason, it's just not THIS reason.

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The problem is if you lock down a group of MOBs, you are going to do damage to them at almost ZERO risk.

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You mean sort of like a Sonic Blaster using Siren's Song to put an entire group to sleep, then using his superior damage to kill them one at a time? Sort of exactly like that?

I don't remember Sonic Blasters ever being called "too good," yet they do exactly what you're describing: they lock down a group then pick it apart. They have a single target stun that can even be used to ensure the one enemy they're fighting at any given time can't fight back; the only reason they might not USE it on each enemy is that each enemy dies SO fast that it's a waste of time.

If there's a rationale as to why Dominators must have low damage, the "risk" explanation isn't it, as Sonic Blasters disprove it. Solo they kill with as little risk as a Dominator while having much higher damage, and in a team environment how much of a risk any INDIVIDUAL player is at is determined by team composition more than their individual powers. I'm not necessarily saying Dominators need more damage, I'm just saying your particular explanation isn't the REASON they don't need more if they don't.

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There is a difference between mez protection and mez resistance. Resistance will be ...meh

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I strongly suspect he misused the term; a lot of people do without th inking about it.

Mez resistance would be boarderline useless in PvP; anything that can mez us can usually kill us before the mez runs out, and even substantial resistance wouldn't change that. He probably means protection, meaning it will take more mezzes to mez us in the first place.

If he really does mean resistance, well, I guess it can't hurt, but I can't say it'd help much either.

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Really the difference in "tanking" abilities between a brute and a scrapper..... 5% more health on the brute.

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I was under the impression that while Brutes PERSONAL defenses were Scrapper-level, their defense CAPS were Tanker level. In a team situations, where buffs can come into play, that intimates to me that Brutes actually can tank better than Scrappers in the right situations, as they can have higher overall defenses.

Unless I'm just remembering horribly wrong.

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As said before, each rocks in some respect and each sucks.

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Some SPECIFIC types of support might be undesirable in given situations (like Force Fields in a support heavy team, as you mention). Support is such a VAST field, however, that you're going to have a hard time finding a team that can't benefit from SOME type of support or another.

Remember, support goes beyond simply protecting your friends. Offensive debuffing/offensive buffing is part and parcel of it. Sure your Force Field supporter might not have been the best choice, but a Kinetics or Radiation user would have still added plenty to the team, as they'd be enhancing EVERYONE's damage, while the Dominator would still just be adding his own damage.

If it were Dominator secondaries vs Force Field, I'd agree, each has it's place. But since it's Dominator secondaries vs Force Field/Kinetics/Radiation/Empathy/Sonic/etc, I think you'd have a hard time really pointing to a situation where SOME Controller secondary wouldn't be helping the team more than the Dominator secondary, and a few of them (Sonics, Kinetics, and Radiation at the very least), would ALWAYS be a better choice, as those three enhance the entire team's damage substantially.

That doesn't even get into the fact that if you wanted more assault, you'd be looking at things like Stalkers and Blasters, not Dominators.

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guys controllers pay a huge price for their mez protection. Mainly they miss out on some of the gems in the other epics

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I'm sure Dominators would be just as willing to pay the same price if they were OFFERED THE CHANCE.

That's the basis of the complaint: Dominators are never offered the same chance Controllers are. Hell, no Villain ARchetype is offered the same choices Hero Archetypes are. The closest we come to sacrifice is whether we want Web Grenade for -jump for [censored] sake.

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The grass is always greener....

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As someone who has played both Dominators and Controllers, this isn't a case of grass is greener. Controllers really are just plain better off with regards to their epic pools, if only BECAUSE they get a wider variety of what you call gems to pick from.

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Why couldn't there have been an option for mez protection like controllers get, or a buff of some sort. Those are things that would really help round out alot of dominators.

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I really, really get the feeling they hate what Controllers have become, and are very paranoid about sending Dominators down the same route in any way.

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The main thing I'd like the developers to look at for Doms are the ppp's. I feel they really got the short end of the stick here

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Even with Ball Lightning in the set, Scirroco's Patron Pool is still pretty good for Dominators. Mako's seems to have a lot of fans as well.

That's the only really, really MAJOR mistake they made with Dominator patron sets I think: giving us more area effect damage. And not even particularly GOOD area effect damage. I can't say I like the pets being in the sets either, but I can see why some people might want them; I can't see why anyone would want Ball Lightning or it's like. In fact, almost anything else would have been preferable to it, even another single target hold.

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Can't have your cake and eat it too. You assert that corruptors are CoVs defenders because they share mirror-imaged dmg/debuff power sets, but neglect to point out that brutes and tanks share mirror-imaged dmg/defense powersets when you suggest that brutes are the CoV scrappers.

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I'm comparing TYPES of sets over SPECIFIC sets where applicable. Scrappers, Tankers, and Brutes all have melee damage TYPE sets and self-defense TYPE sets, so I give the set ordering precedence, particularly in light of the shared focus of Scrappers and Brutes inherents, the shared level of defense-powers, and the shared overall damage capability -- such a judgment call is required because there are examples of powersets that only Brutes and Scrappers share and only Tankers and Scrappers share. Corruptors and Defenders are the only two who both have a blast and buff set, so ordering is irrelevent with regards to them; there's just no one else in the running.

Simple, really.

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The same concept holds for every CoV 'version' of a CoH AT. Corruptors don't do quite as much damage as Blasters

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Except Corruptors are the analogy of Defenders, rather than Blasters, and Corruptors do MORE damage than Defenders.

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Brutes are a little squishier than Tanks, etc.

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Except, again, Brutes are the analogy to Scrappers, not Tankers, and Brutes are more RESILIENT than Scrappers, while actually being able to outdamage them over the course of a mission if they keep a fast pace, too.

So those are really bad examples, to be honest.

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What a curious view on the ATs you have.

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Also a correct one. Or did you not notice that Corruptors and Defenders both do damage and buff/debuff/heal (they're literally just mirror images of one another, with a couple powersets swapped out)? Maybe you didn't notice Scrappers and Brutes are both melee damage primary, self-defense secondary (with the same ratings mind you; no Tanker-level protection for Brutes), with a damage-enhancing inherent?

I think it's pretty obvious, honestly. But I've always been bright.

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The same concept holds for every CoV 'version' of a CoH AT. Corruptors don't do quite as much damage as Blasters

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Except Corruptors are the analogy of Defenders, rather than Blasters, and Corruptors do MORE damage than Defenders.

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Brutes are a little squishier than Tanks, etc.

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Except, again, Brutes are the analogy to Scrappers, not Tankers, and Brutes are more RESILIENT than Scrappers, while actually being able to outdamage them over the course of a mission if they keep a fast pace, too.

So those are really bad examples, to be honest.

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We are meant to truly dominate single targets ...

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And yet against the only single targets that truly NEED to be dominated (Archvillains), our control ability is reduced incredibly.

That's really the biggest legitimate PvE complaint for Dominators: Archvillain fights. It's where we should shine the MOST, yet it's where we shine the LEAST. There are a few other minor matters (like the fact that a little more damage would probably be REASONABLE, and the fact that our endurance to damage ratio could probably be a bit kinder to us), but this one is just a slap in the face.

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Quite honestly, I don't really know how they can balance Archvillain fights for Dominators.

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Look, here's the deal. Individual Archvillains aren't a challenge anyway. The sole and only possible issue when on a good team against an individual Archvillain is whether or not you can beat it's regeneration, and most teams can.

Beyond that, who cares? Corruptors are all ready capable of debuffing them to the point where they're not a threat, I see no reason why Dominators can't just lock them down. It's not like it's cheap to keep the thing locked down the whole fight WHILE doing damage, after all. More important, though, is the fact that being able to lock down individual Archvillains would come in handy against MULTIPLE Archvillains.

That said, my solution is to solve it like it was solved in PvP: mez supression. You hold the ARchvillain, and when that hold ends, he's free for a short period of time. He's still not locked down the ENTIRE fight, but he's locked down MORE of the fight, and more importantly, you can CONTROL the times he's locked down on. Look at Mako for instance: if you can lock him down at just the right time, he can't Elude, and that's huge benefit. But because of the triangles, you've no way of saying, "Now is when I want my brief mez lockdown." If we could control at will, and then have the mez protection come AFTER the lockdown, then we could lock down Mako/Positron/Brawler/etc and stop them from using their invincible power, and thus be very useful.

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Think about it, AV fight is supposed to be the super tough fight ...

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Except they're not. Individual Archvillains ARE NOT super tough fights. Any combination of Masterminds, Corruptors, and Brutes makes sure of that.

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Im reasonablly happy I can hold down an av roughly 1/4 of the time.

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To be entirely honest, I don't care what you're happy with. It's mathematically unfair to Dominators, and that's all there is to it; imbalances aren't justified by individuals not minding them, and this is a mathematically obvious imbalance.

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We are meant to truly dominate single targets ...

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And yet against the only single targets that truly NEED to be dominated (Archvillains), our control ability is reduced incredibly.

That's really the biggest legitimate PvE complaint for Dominators: Archvillain fights. It's where we should shine the MOST, yet it's where we shine the LEAST. There are a few other minor matters (like the fact that a little more damage would probably be REASONABLE, and the fact that our endurance to damage ratio could probably be a bit kinder to us), but this one is just a slap in the face.

Dominators are excellent in every area of the game except Archvillain fights and PvP. In Archvillain fights, they underperform, and in PvP they underperform (in both cases for the same reason: the heavy negation their primary skillset suffers due to purple triangles and break frees/buffs). Otherwise they're just dandy.

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Last, with health and the reduced duration times on sleep attacks (flash freeze anyway) the duration with 2 slots is so short the animation doesnt show at all. I understand it not being 2 minutes, but shouldnt it last at least 5 seconds? The slotted duration in PVP of flashfreeze if they have health is on the order of 0.3 seconds or so.

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I've been having the same problems with Mind's sleep powers in PvP. I PMed Castle about it, he says he'll look into it, and that it didn't sound right.

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I used to think the same way as you.

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And it sounds like you still do think the same way as me, because you summarize the main idea of my post very succinctly when you say:

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andd like you alluded to, one CM, clarify, ID or BF and they're right back at you.

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That's pretty much what it all comes down to. The only enemies we are NOT at a disadvantage against are the ones who don't bother with these precautions -- precautions that are literally availible to us all.

And I think we are reasonable to be unhappy about that, particularly since it means every time I stand over the body of someone I killed, part of me recognizes a BIG reason I won was their lack of preparation, plain and simple. Most Archetypes I've played as don't get that same feeling.

I still feel my Dominator is viable in PvP, mind you, and I still plan on doing quite well for myself. I just recognize the enabling factor is largely people's laziness and incompetency, and I don't like it.

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I thought about this more and did the following analysis: Of all ATs both hero and villain, dominators have by far the weakest self-defense in PvP considering all factors.

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In fact, against a foe who takes precautions against mezzes (which is incredibly easy to do given even solo youc an rely on break frees), many Dominators have absolutely NO personal defense outside of possible meager power pool choices. With the advent of Bodyguard, Dominators are now literally the softest target on the PvP battlefield.

If mez protection was as rare in PvP as it is in PvE, I think we'd be fine. Since it's OVERWHELMINGLY COMMON, however, in many situations our primary powerset does virtually nothing, and our secondary powerset really can't be relied upon to cover the gap the way it could for, say, Blasters.

I won't lie, I've done pretty well as a Dominator, both on live and on test (obviously being better on test). However, that's largely due to the ignorance, poor preparation, and lack of competency in my opposition, along with my pretty good reflexes and total lack of lag. People might say, "But Dominators do fine on teams," but what they generally mean by that is, "Dominators do well when they're in an organized team [censored] unorganized people," because against an organized, well built team mezzing ANYONE is incredibly difficult.

So we have:

-Solo Dominator vs poorly prepared foe: Dominator does fine.
-Solo Dominator vs well prepared foe: Dominator is at a complete disadvantage, as their mezzes are virtually completely negated, and their passive defense and damage are some of the lowest in the game.
-Dominator on a well built, organized team vs unorganized opposition: Dominator does fine (but who wouldn't?).
-Dominator on a well built, organized team vs competent, organized opposition: Dominator is back to doing poorly by comparrison, as their mezzes are once again easily negated, and although through the actions of the team the Dominator's survivability increases, he's still the least survivable and least effective MEMBER of the team.

The theme is clear: mez protection is simply too easily availible and too effective, and when it shows up on the field in force, a Dominator loses a lot of his power. A Dominator who can't mez is the weakest possible character in the game, and situations in PvP which prevent mezzing are very, very abundant.

I like Dominators. I have fun as a Dominator. I get kills as a Dominator. The problem is, how well I do is heavily reliant on the laziness and incompetency of my foes. People who run around solo and don't carry break frees I do fine against. People who take reasonable precautions against mezzing and play with a modicum of strategy, I have little recourse against, unless my recourse is "join a team and crush that player with gang bang tactics," which while effective, is neither sporting, fun, or something most other archetypes would have to resort to, as few other archetypes can have the MAJORITY of their power so easily countered in both solo and team environments.

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wait 10 secs and it will

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That's a pretty big bloody circumstance. "Hey, just wait 10 seconds between every attack, and make sure not to get hit in that 10 seconds between every attack, and Assassination benefits every attack you make!" I think we all realize what an unrealistic expectation that is.

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also held targets give a 20% chance for a stalker crit too, even out of hide

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Which isn't 100%, which means it's not benefitting every attack you make, as I said.

No Stalker, when playing in a realistic fashion, benefits from Assassination on every attack, and that's all that matters.

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all 3 of those inherents can work on every attack though

domination is situational

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Unless you're fighting in really peculiar circumstances, Assassination definitely can't benefit every attack you make.