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Here's a suggestion.
If you don't like Hamidon as he's currently implemented?
Don't raid him. Don't go there. Play a lower level alt. Watch a movie. Make out with your SO. Avoid the un-fun, making it clear that it IS un-fun and that you will do other things instead.
You've let the 'reward' from basically farming the giant monster turn you from a superhero into a grinder.
If the post-50 content is unpalatable, or unplayable, just ... don't play it!
And they will notice, and they will either add something new, or fix the Hamidon in some significantly dramatic way. But at this time, there's actually a counter-impetus to changing it to anything better - the whining and howling of the masses when their HO farm gets taken away.
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We were all expecting some changes (well, I was, as were others) and figured we'd have to rework the strategy. This though kills any enjoyment from it. They take the two current major risks for a failed raid and make them far worse, rather changing the problems to be solved. The changes they've made do nothing to change the strategy to take them down. They just ensure that controllers and defenders will end up with max debt and the odds of failure are very high. It's still...distract hami and the mitos, take out the mitos one by one, hold hami, take hami down.
I keep hearing from people who are saying "raids weren't any fun". If they weren't fun, they shouldn't be raiding. For many of us, it is fun. It's fun seeing large groups of heroes working in concert, and it's a social event. It's not what I want for end game PVE content, I would love to try to take on a task force similar to the CoV task force, but it's not there.
This is the CoH PvE end game. These changes are no fun. I'd rather have fun.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
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I just had another thought: We know that some "Legends system" or some such is in the pipe-line. It's supposed to allow us to make L50 chars stronger. I'd bet that the recent AV/GM and Hamidon changes were in anticipation of that system. If this is the case, then I say why push these difficulty increases to the Live servers now? Why not wait until the Legend system is in place? It's like what they did recently when they changed ToHit Debuff enhancements. Alot of Defs and Trollers took a big hit, until I7 came out 1.5 months later. Why not do them at the same time so the players don't get frustrated waiting to be fixed? I don't get it.
Ofcourse I could be wrong.
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That's because nerfs go first and fast. Buffs take a while and apparently need approval.
Don't believe me? Look at their patching history. Nerfs go fast and sometimes un-mentioned. Buffs take forever (or give the appearance of such) and are typically mentioned.
Virtue: multiple characters.
CoH/V: Woot! Maybe Fun is to be had once again.
Ack! RUN! Regen is glowing mean & green!
If it reduces you, it's a nerf.
If it buffs the mobs, it's challenge.
They are not the same.
I say we go with these current changes and let Hammi attack while held but as a comprimise for any griefing and just plain headaches that will come from this they allow us to actually choose the HO reward rather than it being random.
I know it has been suggested before - always without any dev response - but I, for one, could tolerate these changes if I knew that I would get the HO that I needed rather than another stupid dam/range (I tend to play melee types).
GadgetDon... didn't you get the official memo from Statesman (more like Tyrant but that's for another thread)? Dying repeatedly against a boss is fun.
Also, in case you didn't know this... challenge ALWAYS equals FUN. In fact, Challenge in any amount is ALWAYS fun regardless of the amount of reward (or lack thereof) given.
Risk vs reward only works for Cryptic when increasing the amount of Risk while leaving the reward the same or reducing it to pitiful levels not on par with comparable challenges.
My guess is they've bought into the whole "less is more" thing where less reward for increased grief / challenge is okay.
They've managed to chase this once-in-a-while Hami raider away from the Hive.
Virtue: multiple characters.
CoH/V: Woot! Maybe Fun is to be had once again.
Ack! RUN! Regen is glowing mean & green!
If it reduces you, it's a nerf.
If it buffs the mobs, it's challenge.
They are not the same.
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Better yet, why don't you create an anti-archvillain Task Force for us the way you made an anti-hero Strike Force for the villains, so we can give up this whole silly Hamidon Raiding thing. Hamidon Raids stopped being fun shortly after everyone figured out how to beat him. Now they're just work, which you keep making less and less fun in the hope of making it less and less easy.
There is nothing fun about Hamidon Raiding. Nothing. Making Hamidon attack while he's held is only going to make it even more irritating. Rather than continue to make it even more tedious, please replace it with something that could remotely be considered fun. Retire the jello blob and bring in the AVs.
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This gets my vote. Raiding is a boring pain in the [censored] lagfest. A TF would be awesome fun.
C'mon devs, I just reactivated. Did you have to do something so retarded right away?
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Castle, can you get us more of an explanation on why this change (attack while held) was considered necessary? It's not going to make the raid any more challenging; the aggro tanker team is already able to stand up to the damage Hami's blasts dish out, or they wouldn't be able to survive long enough for Hamidon to be held; Hamidon continuing to blast even while held is not going to change the fundamental raid strategy one iota--especially on servers that use attackless holds where there aren't any major tanker attacks to lure the aggro away from the taunter.
All it is going to do is make raids more frustrating as our primary barometer on how to tell whether or not Hamidon is held--and is remaining held--has been rendered ineffectual.
If you don't want us to be able to get Hamidon Enhancements, why don't you just remove Hamidon altogether?
Better yet, why don't you create an anti-archvillain Task Force for us the way you made an anti-hero Strike Force for the villains, so we can give up this whole silly Hamidon Raiding thing. Hamidon Raids stopped being fun shortly after everyone figured out how to beat him. Now they're just work, which you keep making less and less fun in the hope of making it less and less easy.
There is nothing fun about Hamidon Raiding. Nothing. Making Hamidon attack while he's held is only going to make it even more irritating. Rather than continue to make it even more tedious, please replace it with something that could remotely be considered fun. Retire the jello blob and bring in the AVs.
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I couldn't agree more. I keep wanting to play COH, but the missions and danger zones are just not fun. I hate the fact that sking really doesn't make much of a difference because everyone wants to play in danger zones like this one. SOOooo unless I am the same level as everyone else, I usually have to play solo.
Hamidon is just plain BORING! It also gives Heroes just a HUGE advantage over villains in the fact that they can have gargantuan grous fight hamy and get hamios, when villains can only have 8 people do a SF that is 10x's harder in hopes to get the villain equivalent. I much prefer the idea of having to do the SF, but Hammy is so easy for someone to run in, attack once, then sit there and collect his/her Hammy. It's pointless and dumb...
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From Cuppa:
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The Mitos are AVs and are acting according to this patch note:
AVs/Heroes and Giant Monsters now ignore threat level damage multipliers for different Archetypes. They are still affected by Taunt as before.
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From _Castle_
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The Hamidon and the Mitochandria were specifically exempted from the original AV/GM changes. As such, there is nothing to roll back for them, in this regard.
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Which is it?
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The two statements ar not mutually exclusive. They can both be True. They do act as AV's, use any AV associated AI, etc.. .. but they did not gain the massive HP boost/Regen boost.
My memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
Also, my memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
"The tip of a shoelace is called an aglet, its true purpose is sinister." The Question
Its obvious that the player base (see: paying customers) is happy with your performance. Keep up the good work, devs. 
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What didnt they bugger up after releasing I7?
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The "Log Out Now" button.
It still works (sometimes even when you don't want it to).
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When I click that the game freezes and I have to physically push the button on my computer to get it to shut off. 
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Me too.
But my name was unchanged and isn't buggy.
~Missi
http://tinyurl.com/yhy333s
Miss Informed in 2016! She can't be worse than all those other guys!
Hey if you Zeroes can't handle a big blob like Hamidon, why don't you petition your beloved Statesman to extend a hand to us "Villians." We would show you how to splatter that thing in record time.
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/rpoff
I really don't mind Hamidon difficulty being increased if you allow Villians to help take down a Global Threat. More information on an idea I had can be found here.
I'd like to make a brief point...
Victory server has had a long history of difficulty with griefing players who ruin raids. We have asked for help many, many times, and only received HelpBot answers.
I have gone as far as breaking forum rules to put up posts where GM's, Devs, and anyone who could possibly help could see, as well as making personal pleas to Statesman and Cricket. Cricket said it might be being looked into, but if it was, wouldn't say. Statesman never replied.
This latest round of changes makes it now harder to do a Raid we were organized enough to do, yet frustrated by exploits from immature players who felt like ruining everyone's hard work for personal amusement. And the problems with griefing on our server were never solved or assisted with.
It's hard for me to understand why we aren't getting any help, and the process is in fact becoming harder. The changes made to Giant Monsters make it impossible to ignore any monsters dragged into the middle of the raid by a griefer (which is how the last attempted raid on Victory was ruined). It's as if the griefers are being helped.
I used to love raids. It's a pretty cool thing when you can get 50+ people to take an active roll and work towards the common good. The reward is still a great one. But we continue to have these problems and we get no response that indicates anyone in charge is even listening to our problems. The fact that our pointing out players claiming servers were intentionally crashed got "update drivers" responses indicates someone's letting a Bot answer these things without reading for content.
How do you justify altering Hamidon raids without addressing griefing?
Because I want to offer some kind of suggestion towards solving the problem instead of just lodging yet another complaint... some new special Mitos be created that only attack Giant Monsters who enter the jello?
Please, respond.
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Will the proposed AV Regen rollback effect Mitos and Hami?
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The Hamidon and the Mitochandria were specifically exempted from the original AV/GM changes. As such, there is nothing to roll back for them, in this regard.
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YAY
@bpphantom
The Defenders of Paragon
KGB Special Section 8
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So - here it is.
Added to the patch notes:
The Hamidon has been increased in difficulty. It is now capable of using one of its attack powers even when Held, Slept, or Stunned.
Evidently Hammy got a laser beam on it's head a long time ago but just now figured out how to use it.
The Mitos are AVs and are acting according to this patch note:
AVs/Heroes and Giant Monsters now ignore threat level damage multipliers for different Archetypes. They are still affected by Taunt as before.
As for the drops? Bug.
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And why was this not documented in any way until now?
This change obviously was planned and meticulously analyzed in a brazen attempt to make Hamidon Raids and Mito encounters tougher and less routine. It strikes at the heart of the Hami tactics employed by Raid Leaders.
Then it was implemented on Test and now Live. And yet it was NEVER documented for the players until we have to beg for an explanation.
If you wanted to exponentially increase the difficulty of a Hamidon Raid at least have the courtesy to inform us in the Patch Notes. As such, this and the forceful implementation of the AV/GM changes even when we stated that the regen rates were astronomically out of line for 8 man Task Forces to handle Babbage, etc. shows the now typical disregard and callous attitude to the players.
At least be honest in the fact that you want to put a big wooden stake in the practice of routine Hamidon Raids. All you have done is create an even greater situation ripe for griefing for players who do work to make a successful raid occur.
These actions are disingenuous in the extreme. And that makes me wish to support this game even less.
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The Hamidon has been increased in difficulty. It is now capable of using one of its attack powers even when Held, Slept, or Stunned.
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I wonder how long it will be before this kind of "balance" is filtered down to the rest of the game. Hold, Disorient, and Sleep, the new Immobilization!
Feh. Sometimes, I honestly wonder if Cryptic is using crack as its primary means of "creativity stimulation".
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You know I was wondering the same thing, and why people weren't catching on this. Holds are fairly disfavored in the game already because they diminish risk, I wouldn't be surprised if all AVs will be able to do what hami does now. My dom really will suck then (and I really enjoy playing her despite the naysayers).
On Justice
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So - here it is.
Added to the patch notes:
The Hamidon has been increased in difficulty. It is now capable of using one of its attack powers even when Held, Slept, or Stunned.
Evidently Hammy got a laser beam on it's head a long time ago but just now figured out how to use it.
The Mitos are AVs and are acting according to this patch note:
AVs/Heroes and Giant Monsters now ignore threat level damage multipliers for different Archetypes. They are still affected by Taunt as before.
As for the drops? Bug.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just want to thank the people who worked on this profusely for making a Hamidon Raid much easier for griefers to destroy. Griefing used to take a little bit of skill to do. Now all you need is a tanker or a kheldian in the hold group spamming his or her attacks. WAY TO GO, CRYPTIC!
Arc# 92382 -- "The S.P.I.D.E.R. and the Tyrant" -- Ninjas! Robots! Praetorians! It's totally epic! Play it now!
Arc # 316340 -- "Husk" -- Azuria loses something, a young woman harbors a dark secret, and the fate of the world is in your hands.
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Its obvious that the player base (see: paying customers) is happy with your performance. Keep up the good work, devs.
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Never said I was 'happy' about the change, nor am I 'The Playerbase'. Just clearing up your question.
My memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
Also, my memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
"The tip of a shoelace is called an aglet, its true purpose is sinister." The Question
Quite frankly, I don't see the need for all the discussion. If all the people here who were irritated would just pass along a bit of advice to a friend and a friend of a friend, an easier way of making changes might occur.
Just stop raiding Hamidon. Plain and simple. If your Level 50 has nothing better to do with his time, then move to another character. As long as people prove things can be done and they are willing to do them, developers will implement them. If down the road datamining shows that no one is raiding Hamidon, that's probably more likely to get results than 20 or 2000 pages of complaint notes, followed by people continuing to successfully raid like before.
I strongly believe the main reason that most of the AV boost is being rolled back is not because of the player notes but because mining and research showed that most groups couldn't actually take down the AVs.
Or even better, pass along this bit of advice to a friend and a friend of a friend...
"Don't pick up CoX."
Holds that don't hold? Phased MIs that can attack? I'm with the other guy on this - are y'all on crack?
Why not just make power effects randomly generated? Holds? Sometimes they'll hold - maybe they'll blast. Heck, sometimes even taunt! Blasts? Hmmm, sometimes they'll do damage, sometimes heal! That's the best idea because then no one can make an uber build. It will completely solve the balance issue! And everything will be a FUN challenge ALL the time.
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Because, if a critter is Held, Slept, or Stunned, by definition, it can not attack. If it still attacks, then it's not Held, Slept, or Stunned.
[/ QUOTE ]
I direct your attention to Carnival Illusionist Phase Shift, and Longbow Spines Warden Quills. There are very few enemy powers that can be used while mezzed, but it is not unprecedented.
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Just stop raiding Hamidon. Plain and simple. If your Level 50 has nothing better to do with his time, then move to another character.
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Victory stopped after trying to handle the griefing ourselves (due to a complete lack of GM support) and failing. Perhaps you're right, and we should cancel the weekend raid we're planning and not even try...
I don't understand why we have changes to make it harder when we can't even complete it for our own players sabotaging it., and ZERO support.
I think I'll be talking about that for as long as there's a problem, regardless of whether anyone sees the need.
How do these changes increase the risk getting a HO requires, for all those people who pop into the hive when their friends tell them he is held? The number of people who do this is not insubstanial.
Seems to me, the people who do the actual work and want to contribute are the ones getting shafted because of the mito targetting changes. Why dont the dev's figure out how to give the super leeches their share of the risk and time commitment before they start punishing those willing to play the game and put themselves at risk for a Hami-O.
Have to agree with Hospitality on this. Don't see why the change was needed, let alone not documented. I have tried 3 separate raids on Victory - only 1 was successful. The other two were total clusters due to griefers. Now, not only will we have to deal with griefers, we will have to deal with players who with the best of intentions make an ill-timed attack.
Please devs, if you want to make something more challenging, this is really not the way to do it. All this does is add to your already VERY frustrated player base.
[ QUOTE ]
Quite frankly, I don't see the need for all the discussion. If all the people here who were irritated would just pass along a bit of advice to a friend and a friend of a friend, an easier way of making changes might occur.
Just stop raiding Hamidon. Plain and simple. If your Level 50 has nothing better to do with his time, then move to another character. As long as people prove things can be done and they are willing to do them, developers will implement them. If down the road datamining shows that no one is raiding Hamidon, that's probably more likely to get results than 20 or 2000 pages of complaint notes, followed by people continuing to successfully raid like before.
I strongly believe the main reason that most of the AV boost is being rolled back is not because of the player notes but because mining and research showed that most groups couldn't actually take down the AVs.
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Good guess. Whereas this clever Hamidon change is being made to balance the difficulty of the LRSF in CoV to Paragon City and the heroes that are already loaded up on HOs. Brilliant.
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With Regard to Hamidon 'Not Rendering':
Hamidon disappears because the game is made so that only a certain number of toons are drawn on your screen at one time. Even before you start to fight Hamidon, you may notice that you start to lose sight of far off Mitos or the other team.
When the holding phase starts and you can still see Hamidon, you probably can't see the taunter on the other side of Hamidon. You'll only 'see' about 80 toons right next to you. Even players, or griefing Giant Monsters can't be seen until they're right next to you.
And so, when the attack phase begins and even more players come in to attack, the Hamidon himself will no longer be seen. Luckily, pets don't rely upon a graphical presentation of toons on their computer to see and target Hamidon... they know he's there and we can target through them. (Although, at very crowded raids of 120 or more players, even my pet lost sight of Hamidon.)
If you lose sight of Hamidon, you can try to move away from the crowd by hovering over him, or going near the taunter (suicidal as that may be) and lo and behold, you can see Hamidon again. In fact, I did that one raid to watch how he dies.. it's spectacular!
However, if everyone moved over to the taunter to see Hamidon, you'd probably lose sight of him again.
So, it's not the server or player graphical effects that make people lose sight of Hamidon... its too many people that does it.
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But you need that many people to take him down. It's designed to require that many numbers.
And it is not just the number of players, the effects also make an effect. Otherwise, when hami lets loose, everyone dies, you can in fact see Hami, all the mitos and all the people.
Your pets don't lose sight of Hami, hami has an aggro cap just like heroes do so after enough pets to hit the cap...other pets don't aggro on hami, don't target him, and you can't target through them.
Under I6, there were two serious challenges that can keep Hamidon from being completed once you've got the people there. First, due to the game mechanics, problems in the renderer, and Hami's aggro limit, targetting hami can be an issue. In the past month or so, even the taunter has had to resort to targetting through a pet. Second, if griefers can take down enough holders by luring a giant monster into the pit or spawning an ambush like Kronos, the hold breaks, and there's an uncontrolled mito spawn.
Under this change, we'll be also dealing the sfx for hamidon attacking, a healing bubble will probably need to be maintained, making it even harder to keep visual targetting, and they've made it urgent to keep visual targetting because the only way to tell when hold is broken is by the loss of some sometimes subtle effects.
And they've made griefing trivial. Put a couple of tankers in the goo with the holders, using taunt plus attacks, attacks take out the holders, and suddenly Hamidon is surrounded by a large number of yellow mitos.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout