But they were fully empowered to cause a raid to fail before this change happened. They are no more or less powerful with regards to causing a raid to fail.
Everyone can agree that the Hamiden is lame post 50 content requiring rediculously large teams to perform successfully over a very long time of boring activity and creating demands so harsh that the graphics requirements are impossible to satisify.
The real problem is the Hamiden itself is lame and boring to kill.
I really don't think the AOE beam that can fire when held hurts as much as people are crying about it. Griefers can break up a raid if they want to, regardless of the change. Roll it back, and every raid that would have failed because a greifer exploited the beam would still fail because the griefer just lures in a GM.
If it introduced griefing into the Hami-Raid, it would be a big deal. Suddenly a situation that couldn't be griefed can. But since griefing a Hami-Raid already happens, and can be accomplished easily by any AT (regardless of if they have a taunt power), this change won't and doesn't increase griefing.
Then why even introduce another means for griefers which goes against the game mechanics of a hold power at all? Does it add more to a challenge? HELL NO! All it does it make it a gamble on whether or not he is held. The change makes absolutely no sense at all. Yes Hami raids are snooze fest but what does that have to do with opening another door for griefers?
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Allegedly, there was a patch note that may have had some indication of impact with regard to Aggro rules but I haven't been able to locate it.
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I believe you are looking for this:
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Powers - Critters
* AVs/Heroes and Giant Monsters now ignore threat level damage multipliers for different Archetypes. They are still affected by Taunt as before.
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Thanks.
So now I have to ask is: What the hell does that mean besides now I need to use taunt frequently? "Threat Level Damage Multipliers" is not good layman speak. Non-developer translation required. What is the reasoning?
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"Threat rating" is apparently a scale factor applied by AT and/or mob type to determine how much hostile mobs "hate" a given target. It seems to apply to their innate nature to target you out of a crowd as well as how they reprioritize things when attacked. For example, controller pets have long posessed a high threat rating, meaning foes will choose them over the controller until the controller does something that makes them really, really want to kill him instead. Apparently there is a pecking order among the ATs as well, with Tankers and the offensive ATs marked as "higher threat" than the other "supporting" ones.
When I saw this patch note on test (and thought I understood it) Hami raid PA drops was the very first thing that came to mind. Mitos target the PAs because they have a high threat rating. If Mitos are now ignoring threat rating, they will probably prioritize what appears to be randomly, until attacked. Then they will go after what hurt them most (or possibly most recently), without regard to what other targets happen to be in range.
[/ QUOTE ]so do pa's just rely on this, or do they have a built in taunt/gauntlet ability?becuse this is a huge change to hammy raids if pa's are not taking any more agro then a player.
hm i think gm's should be made imune to tp foe,or else make it so they can not be ported into a certen range of the hammy zone.
does anyone ever use tp foe on monsters for anything other then griefing?is it realy more efective then snipe pulling them?
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But they were fully empowered to cause a raid to fail before this change happened. They are no more or less powerful with regards to causing a raid to fail.
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I believe you are missing the point. Often griefers would pull GMs to raids and the raid would not fail becase it could be taken care of. Now it takes a lot more to get rid of a GM so increased chance of raid failing.
Your argument is kinda like, "The mugger had a knife before and he could steal your stuff, so a mugger with a .45 isn't a bigger problem because he can still steal your stuff." Giving griefers bigger, better weapons is a very bad idea.
The author of this post is speaking in generalities from his personal experience.
Your experience may vary.
Plus, now with the aoe power that's fired even when held...all you need to grief is a couple of tanks in with the attackers, using taunt and attacking. They steal aggro away from the taunter, all the squishies near the griefer take a few strikes and die, hold is broken. And it's a lot harder to identify a tanker taunting.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
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Be they bugs or intended, is this really a problem?
I think it would be great... nay, superb if Hamidon's AI and the strategies needed to defeat him/it were rendered obsolete every issue or two. As it stands now (err, as of I6 anyway), Hamidon is a joke. It's so boring to do. It's the same thing over and over and over. Revamping the encounter will keep it interesting. It should be done more often!
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Revamp, great. Spectacular, actually...it would be like having all the Task Force missions and objectives change with each release. New content!!!!!
Simply buff Hammi & Mitos because it's 'too easy', though? Dumb as a box of rocks. Because, well, I'm now doing the Exact. Same. Things. But I have to do them better, more precise, with more people to have a chance to succeed. It doesn't make it more interesting for *me*....it simply makes it more tedious.
I dunno about you, but the more tedious a thing is, the less fun it is for me.
It wouldn't be so bad if the raid could be done with 8 to 16 people or so...those are teams one could build fairly quickly to try out new and wacky ideas that just might work....and come back and try again and again and again. But when it takes 32+ flippin' people in the zone to even begin to *attempt* to try something...
I mean, ****, we did all this for months before we learned strats that worked on Hammidon. If it's 'too easy' change the bloody encounter and challenge my creativity, my ingenuity, and my skill. As it stands, though, seems like I don't need a new tool, I just need a bigger flippin' hammer.
Yours in Vexation,
Sable Shadow
The devs seem to have a lot of difficulty in boosting the challenge of the game (leaving aside the debate over whether more "challenge" is needed at all) without grossly overdoing it or simply equating challenge with tedium and grind. I honestly can't say why this is, but every time I hear talk of them making something more of a "challenge", I wince at what is to come, because it is almost always something that detracts from the play experience rather than enhancing it.
Well we had a raid on Victory a little while ago and we failed badly. We had no idea when it was held. It was a huge waste of time. This is the first time in a long time that we've failed without it being because of griefers.
We only had a couple people try to pull monsters but I think it would have been a lot worse if I didn't suggest the raid being recorded.
I saw some of the same things in Victory's raid today, that the OP reported. I also noticed something else. Attacking defenders and controllers were dropping like flies. Not your normal drop rate, I talking about dead in 5-10 seconds. Repeatedly. Out of my team, the only support to survive was a controller who only used heal during the raid. Once we got 1/2 the mitos cleared, the death rate dropped off, but was still pretty heavy on support (almost like they ignore the massive damage done by scrappers/blasters and concentrated on trollers/def). I hit debt cap in about 5 minutes and was never up for more than 10 seconds unless I ran for the rock. I finally switched toons to help heal.
Victory got to through the mitos, through the hold phase, or what we thought was hold phase, then got hami to 25% health before he broke and mass death was had. Although it's hard to tell when he's held now so I don't know. It was a very long time before the attack phase was called.
Over 80 in the zone, there were over 16 AMs up, and probably around 30 controllers. With the AMs I would say that should have been more then enough to hold him. Unless... his mez resistance goes up significantly at 25%? Hmmmm.....
I was on a team with 2 scrappers and 2 blasters (who never stopped attacking mitos) and no one got any SO drops. I doubt anyone in the hive got any SO drops.
I would venture to say the raid is brokes right now.
I never saw the big deal in hammi anyway, yeah you get hamio's but even they aren't what they used to be just like almost everything else in the game just another lag fest! 
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I never saw the big deal in hammi anyway, yeah you get hamio's but even they aren't what they used to be just like almost everything else in the game just another lag fest!
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For me, Hami raids are (usually) loads of fun. Seeing a large number of people coordinate and succeed is exilarating. And yes it is worth it. Even if Hami 'Os are no longer 50%, they are still double powers (ie acc/dmg). I'll take that over an oversided SO, anyday.
And as far as lag, just turn your graphics setting down or set to safemode. It's not that bad once you've done this.
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I never saw the big deal in hammi anyway, yeah you get hamio's but even they aren't what they used to be just like almost everything else in the game just another lag fest!
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I get no lag from them. I have a decent computer & good internet speeds.
I mean this in the nicest way possible, but: If you don't like raiding Hami... don't do it. But, they are ruining it for those of us that do.
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... Over 80 in the zone, there were over 16 AMs up, and probably around 30 controllers. With the AMs I would say that should have been more then enough to hold him...
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Infinity's experience pre-I7 has been that about 30 trollers and 10AMs kept him held. I figure either your Victory server numbers were off, you had some weird server issues and/or disconnects, or they did more to the Hamidon than allow him to attack while held. Given the top-notch type of communication we receive from the devs, I wouldn't rule out the latter.
Someone should tell team-dev that ignoring threat level damage multipliers is not the same as ignoring the damage. Taunt aside, whoever is dealing more of it should get the aggro.
Now that they've buffed his AI and powers, where is the increased reward to match the increased risk?
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I saw some of the same things in Victory's raid today, that the OP reported. I also noticed something else. Attacking defenders and controllers were dropping like flies. Not your normal drop rate, I talking about dead in 5-10 seconds. Repeatedly. Out of my team, the only support to survive was a controller who only used heal during the raid. Once we got 1/2 the mitos cleared, the death rate dropped off, but was still pretty heavy on support (almost like they ignore the massive damage done by scrappers/blasters and concentrated on trollers/def). I hit debt cap in about 5 minutes and was never up for more than 10 seconds unless I ran for the rock. I finally switched toons to help heal.
Victory got to through the mitos, through the hold phase, or what we thought was hold phase, then got hami to 25% health before he broke and mass death was had. Although it's hard to tell when he's held now so I don't know. It was a very long time before the attack phase was called.
Over 80 in the zone, there were over 16 AMs up, and probably around 30 controllers. With the AMs I would say that should have been more then enough to hold him. Unless... his mez resistance goes up significantly at 25%? Hmmmm.....
I was on a team with 2 scrappers and 2 blasters (who never stopped attacking mitos) and no one got any SO drops. I doubt anyone in the hive got any SO drops.
I would venture to say the raid is brokes right now.
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I'm European. Means Freedom's Hammi raids are between 2 AM and 6 AM for me. Means I only get to do them Friday and Saturday night. After having 3 raids out of 5 failed due to griefing and (in one case) missing out on the HO because I crashed, I gave up on them. And that was in i6. The way it sounds now, I simply won't bother again.
The villain TF? Ugh, spare me. The way it looks now, only VERY specific templates can do it. All others are just SOL. I vastly prefer the open nature of the Hammi raids, where each AT can find something useful to do.
One comment on aggro. I play a bots/dark MM villainside, and I noticed that with some ambushing AVs (especially Citadel), I simply cannot get rid of aggro. Keep in mind it's the pets that do the damage, I just heal and mez. And in this case, ran all over the map without doing anything else then mashing the bots' attack button. And then he went and stood guard over my corpse. I had to hospital before he left me alone. Maybe that's what's going on with Mitos: could they be stuck in ambush mode?
Linna
Matt Miller: The Patron Powers are stronger and more powerful than the �equivalent� powers in City of Heroes (the Ancillary Power Pools), because there is less diversification and the fact that Patron choices are permanent alterations to your character.
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I saw some of the same things in Victory's raid today, that the OP reported. I also noticed something else. Attacking defenders and controllers were dropping like flies. Not your normal drop rate, I talking about dead in 5-10 seconds. Repeatedly. Out of my team, the only support to survive was a controller who only used heal during the raid. Once we got 1/2 the mitos cleared, the death rate dropped off, but was still pretty heavy on support (almost like they ignore the massive damage done by scrappers/blasters and concentrated on trollers/def). I hit debt cap in about 5 minutes and was never up for more than 10 seconds unless I ran for the rock. I finally switched toons to help heal.
Victory got to through the mitos, through the hold phase, or what we thought was hold phase, then got hami to 25% health before he broke and mass death was had. Although it's hard to tell when he's held now so I don't know. It was a very long time before the attack phase was called.
Over 80 in the zone, there were over 16 AMs up, and probably around 30 controllers. With the AMs I would say that should have been more then enough to hold him. Unless... his mez resistance goes up significantly at 25%? Hmmmm.....
I was on a team with 2 scrappers and 2 blasters (who never stopped attacking mitos) and no one got any SO drops. I doubt anyone in the hive got any SO drops.
I would venture to say the raid is brokes right now.
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Virtue managed to pull off a successful raid this evening. Due to unforeseen events, I ended up being the taunter on Hami about a quarter of the way into the mito clearing phase, so I can maybe offer a few tips: <ul type="square">[*]Air drop the Phantom Armies: This helped to disburse the initial aggro of Hamidon and the Mitos, to the point where the Mito teams could take on their designated targets.[*]Fly and Group Fly: Nearly everyone was in the air for this, except for a few stragglers. With the Mito teams all airborne, it made the attacking of them much easier.[*]Holding: The way we were able to tell that Hami was truly held was to watch for the ice/stone hold on him. Since I was taunter, I helped to cooridnate this with the raid leaders. Once there was a consensus that Hami seemed held, a 4 minute countdown was held. At that point, the attack phase commenced.[/list]
I hope this gives you a few hints that'll help you take down the Hami. 
Protector -- a low-population server -- also successfully completed a Hamidon raid Saturday evening. There was some confusion as to whether or not Hamidon was held, but it became clear (and confirmed from the forums) that the continued Hamidon attacks were a result of the "Hamidon can attack when held" change that was left off of the patch notes. Once the "hold" effects were visibly on Hamidon with no sign of fading, various regen debuffs were dropped onto Hamidon and the "Death Cuddle" took him out in approximately 10 minutes.
Not only was the first I7 Hamidon raid for Protector (the previous raid was cancelled due to server reset) a complete success, but I actually found someone who wanted to trade for the Lysosome that I received.
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... Over 80 in the zone, there were over 16 AMs up, and probably around 30 controllers. With the AMs I would say that should have been more then enough to hold him...
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Infinity's experience pre-I7 has been that about 30 trollers and 10AMs kept him held. I figure either your Victory server numbers were off, you had some weird server issues and/or disconnects, or they did more to the Hamidon than allow him to attack while held. Given the top-notch type of communication we receive from the devs, I wouldn't rule out the latter.
Someone should tell team-dev that ignoring threat level damage multipliers is not the same as ignoring the damage. Taunt aside, whoever is dealing more of it should get the aggro.
Now that they've buffed his AI and powers, where is the increased reward to match the increased risk?
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Given Victory's experiance, pre-I7, we should have kept him held. We have a long and glorious history of getting hami done with right around the fewest people as possible. This was one of our largest raids in a while.
<ul type="square">[*]We had very good communication from the leaders[*]We had no dissruption from greifers[*]We had more people than needed before[*]We seemed to have very good cooperation, even through the incredible amount of squishy deaths[/list]
And we still weren't able to pull this off. Why? Because the devs took away our ability to judge what is going on. This doesn't make this more interesting. This doesn't make this more interactive. Hell, this doesnt' even mean that the best practice for holding Hami changes.
This just makes it more likely to fail. A raid more likely to fail is going to attract less people. A raid that doesn't attract enough people will not get off the ground. Victory already is having trouble attracting enough people.
Why make this change?
I was in the Virtue successful raid, and while yeah, we won yipee wahoo...it wasn't much fun.
I was in the previously named ISS (Illusionist Suicide Squad, but other than some deaths in figuring out how low we could go, how to get there, and some illusionists falling out of group fly...we were safe. Stay in our spots, drop the pas, fire off AM, Hasten, any speed boosts when we have them, boring.
Meanwhile, the mito squad had several near wipes. The system is now set up that instead of a significant risk of defeat and debt, it's a certainty. If a gamemaster when I was doing paper and pencil was saying "OK, in this event you will die, nope, no way around it, there will be people dying here" I wouldn't play with him any more. The issue is the change in aggro. The strategy throughout the whole game is, non-squishies draw off aggro from squishies. This change that strategy completely. It needs to be changed back.
And for the holding...fortunately the taunter never lost visibility. But given how often it happens...having to rely upon visibility is unacceptable, due to the limitations of the programming of the game. If they want to keep this, they need to give a clear clue. Since there's a new power being used when held, that power needs a different description, so the taunter can look at the combat log and realize when hami is held (because he's only getting hit by the fricking laser beam mounted on Hami's head).
And, we had no griefers. That doesn't change the fact that it is trivial to grief now. Changes needed to reduce griefing:
(1) Make the power used while held single-target. So if someone steals aggro while held, they can't bring an aoe blast into the holders.
(2) Either make the DE monsters simple monsters (not giant monsters) or set them so they don't won't enter the goo (Yeah, Hami loves them like children, but hami's made it clear he doesn't like them wandering within him).
(3) Make the Hub a no-ambush zone. No Kronos spawning.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
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... Over 80 in the zone, there were over 16 AMs up, and probably around 30 controllers. With the AMs I would say that should have been more then enough to hold him...
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Infinity's experience pre-I7 has been that about 30 trollers and 10AMs kept him held. I figure either your Victory server numbers were off, you had some weird server issues and/or disconnects, or they did more to the Hamidon than allow him to attack while held. Given the top-notch type of communication we receive from the devs, I wouldn't rule out the latter.
Someone should tell team-dev that ignoring threat level damage multipliers is not the same as ignoring the damage. Taunt aside, whoever is dealing more of it should get the aggro.
Now that they've buffed his AI and powers, where is the increased reward to match the increased risk?
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Given Victory's experiance, pre-I7, we should have kept him held. We have a long and glorious history of getting hami done with right around the fewest people as possible. This was one of our largest raids in a while.
<ul type="square">[*]We had very good communication from the leaders[*]We had no dissruption from greifers[*]We had more people than needed before[*]We seemed to have very good cooperation, even through the incredible amount of squishy deaths[/list]
And we still weren't able to pull this off. Why? Because the devs took away our ability to judge what is going on. This doesn't make this more interesting. This doesn't make this more interactive. Hell, this doesnt' even mean that the best practice for holding Hami changes.
This just makes it more likely to fail. A raid more likely to fail is going to attract less people. A raid that doesn't attract enough people will not get off the ground. Victory already is having trouble attracting enough people.
Why make this change?
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QFT
Victory has stuggled with raids before but we are a very tenatious server and will get things done with a limited number of people. I would venture to say, even with n00bs to the raid, the majority of the people in the Hive, know how to play their toons and know how to follow directions.
The most glaring thing, AGAIN, has been that the only difference the devs have made in the raid is to make it harder on the servers that are smaller. I'm not saying impossible, I think we can still pull it off, but it's hard man. The larger servers can shrug it off, we on Victory, just get left on the sidelines scratching our heads, trying to grasp what WE did wrong and what we can do next time.
Although I'm not opposed to a challenge, I hate being the odd man out.
Too many questions, questions that need answering.
Sign It : http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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The most glaring thing, AGAIN, has been that the only difference the devs have made in the raid is to make it harder on the servers that are smaller.
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Err, Freedom is one of the top two servers in population and still hasn't succeeded a Hami raid since I7 popped. Though, to be fair, interest in Hami hasn't been very strong the past few months. It feels like the devs want to stifle HO proliferation for a few months to allow the hardcore gamers in CoV to catch up in SHO proliferation.
*sigh*
When is the AV/GM fix going in again?
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Now that they've buffed his AI and powers, where is the increased reward to match the increased risk?
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That logic is only used as justification when they're reducing our ability to do something easily.
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Infinity's experience pre-I7 has been that about 30 trollers and 10AMs kept him held. I figure either your Victory server numbers were off, you had some weird server issues and/or disconnects, or they did more to the Hamidon than allow him to attack while held. Given the top-notch type of communication we receive from the devs, I wouldn't rule out the latter.
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After peeling open several granite armored Stone brutes in Recluse's Victory, I'm starting to suspect that what the failed Hami raids needed is more Mind Controllers.
I haven't done any tests, but I'm pretty sure that 30 Hami-slotted Mind Controllers under a decent amount of AM would be able to chain-hold God.
@Mindshadow
Exactly, the BFD is the devs are giving griefers another option.