[ QUOTE ]
*) This did absolutely zero to make Hamidon more challenging or threatening.
[/ QUOTE ]
I just want to point out that the change did, in fact, offer new challenges to Hami raiders.
The challenge of figuring out when the holds have started to have any affect at all, since the only way to tell was to wait for him to stop counter-attacking. The challenge of determining when he's actually held enough to start attacking, since he de-renders for the vast majority of people. The challenge of packing enough tanks, scrappers, and dwarves, and their respective healers, in the Hive to keep the aggro off the umbrella and hold teams without causing the entire zone to crash and having Hami stay rendered for enough of them to make a difference.
They're short bus challenges, since they don't really involve skill, proper use of powers, tactics, or anything at all beyond dumb luck. But, hey, they're still challenges, so let's be honest about it!
[ QUOTE ]
Castle, can you get us more of an explanation on why this change (attack while held) was considered necessary? It's not going to make the raid any more challenging; the aggro tanker team is already able to stand up to the damage Hami's blasts dish out, or they wouldn't be able to survive long enough for Hamidon to be held; Hamidon continuing to blast even while held is not going to change the fundamental raid strategy one iota--especially on servers that use attackless holds where there aren't any major tanker attacks to lure the aggro away from the taunter.
All it is going to do is make raids more frustrating as our primary barometer on how to tell whether or not Hamidon is held--and is remaining held--has been rendered ineffectual.
If you don't want us to be able to get Hamidon Enhancements, why don't you just remove Hamidon altogether?
Better yet, why don't you create an anti-archvillain Task Force for us the way you made an anti-hero Strike Force for the villains, so we can give up this whole silly Hamidon Raiding thing. Hamidon Raids stopped being fun shortly after everyone figured out how to beat him. Now they're just work, which you keep making less and less fun in the hope of making it less and less easy.
There is nothing fun about Hamidon Raiding. Nothing. Making Hamidon attack while he's held is only going to make it even more irritating. Rather than continue to make it even more tedious, please replace it with something that could remotely be considered fun. Retire the jello blob and bring in the AVs.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ditto.
[ QUOTE ]
Other than telling when Hami's held this is a fairly minor issue; if the taunt tank has a decently slotted taunt then it should be really hard for griefers to steal aggro. We had a SG try to grief our raid on Guardian a while back by starting taunt first, then dragging the aggro into the hold group, and while the griefing tank had Hami aggro we were unable to get it away from him.
[/ QUOTE ]
Taunt enhancements affect only the duration of the taunt, not magnitude. It is indeed possible for a griefer to steal aggro from the aggro tank. In fact, it can be done accidently with Gauntlet from a tank that is just trying to get their hit in. I have seen it happen many times in the I4/5/6 hami raids. With the changes to aggro in I7, it may even be easier for the Hami aggro to be diverted then it was in the past.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Other than telling when Hami's held this is a fairly minor issue; if the taunt tank has a decently slotted taunt then it should be really hard for griefers to steal aggro. We had a SG try to grief our raid on Guardian a while back by starting taunt first, then dragging the aggro into the hold group, and while the griefing tank had Hami aggro we were unable to get it away from him.
[/ QUOTE ]
Taunt enhancements affect only the duration of the taunt, not magnitude. It is indeed possible for a griefer to steal aggro from the aggro tank. In fact, it can be done accidently with Gauntlet from a tank that is just trying to get their hit in. I have seen it happen many times in the I4/5/6 hami raids. With the changes to aggro in I7, it may even be easier for the Hami aggro to be diverted then it was in the past.
[/ QUOTE ]
That sounds great so even less holders then since tanks get holds in APPs.
[ QUOTE ]
They're short bus challenges, since they don't really involve skill, proper use of powers, tactics, or anything at all beyond dumb luck. But, hey, they're still challenges, so let's be honest about it!
[/ QUOTE ]
I remember when "Doooooom" was a wry parody rather than an emerging realization.
[ QUOTE ]
So - here it is.
Added to the patch notes:
The Hamidon has been increased in difficulty. It is now capable of using one of its attack powers even when Held, Slept, or Stunned.
Evidently Hammy got a laser beam on it's head a long time ago but just now figured out how to use it.
[/ QUOTE ]
This REALLY defeats the concept of holds.
The plastic tips at the end of shoelaces are called aglets. Their true purpose is sinister.
--The Question, JLU
Here's a suggestion.
If you don't like Hamidon as he's currently implemented?
Don't raid him. Don't go there. Play a lower level alt. Watch a movie. Make out with your SO. Avoid the un-fun, making it clear that it IS un-fun and that you will do other things instead.
You've let the 'reward' from basically farming the giant monster turn you from a superhero into a grinder.
If the post-50 content is unpalatable, or unplayable, just ... don't play it!
And they will notice, and they will either add something new, or fix the Hamidon in some significantly dramatic way. But at this time, there's actually a counter-impetus to changing it to anything better - the whining and howling of the masses when their HO farm gets taken away.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So - here it is.
Added to the patch notes:
The Hamidon has been increased in difficulty. It is now capable of using one of its attack powers even when Held, Slept, or Stunned.
[/ QUOTE ]
Can this please be reconsidered? The potential for griefing a Hami raid has just dramatically increased with this change. Before, if hami was held, the hold team knew that they were relatively safe, even if the hold was dropped for a second. Now that is no longer the case. Any character with a taunt power can now grief the raid at any point. Even after Hami is held and being killed. And if a griefer does this when Hami is below half health it will cause a mito spawn and therefore a failed raid. I have personally witnessed griefers attempt to draw Hamidon aggro onto the hold team many times in the past. The attempt would fail because Hami did not attack while held.
In fact, now that I think of it, even a well-meaning tank who is just trying to get their hit in so they get a Hami-O could fail the raid if they attack during the hold phase. Again, please reconsider this change.
[/ QUOTE ]
Excellent point. I'm glad you brought that up as I didn't even think about something like that. The reason being since I've been on less than 20 raids I thought everyone would always want a successful raid. But only a couple weeks back on two raids I one, witnessed the monster pulling and two, the verbal beating of someone who must have said just the wrong thing(I was truly surprised at how long they kept it up, even the leaders joined in a couple times).
Nope, not even heroes are above pettiness. So yes, roll this change back as it will allow the griefers another weapon of choice to visit their malicious natures upon others.
[ QUOTE ]
All it is going to do is make raids more frustrating as our primary barometer on how to tell whether or not Hamidon is held--and is remaining held--has been rendered ineffectual.
If you don't want us to be able to get Hamidon Enhancements, why don't you just remove Hamidon altogether?
Better yet, why don't you create an anti-archvillain Task Force for us the way you made an anti-hero Strike Force for the villains, so we can give up this whole silly Hamidon Raiding thing. Hamidon Raids stopped being fun shortly after everyone figured out how to beat him. Now they're just work, which you keep making less and less fun in the hope of making it less and less easy.
There is nothing fun about Hamidon Raiding. Nothing. Making Hamidon attack while he's held is only going to make it even more irritating. Rather than continue to make it even more tedious, please replace it with something that could remotely be considered fun. Retire the jello blob and bring in the AVs.
[/ QUOTE ]QFT!!!
I've had a 50 long enough that I could have him full of Hammi-O's if I wanted to, but in his time of being 50, I have only been to three of them... and that was right after I turned 50. They just weren't fun for me... at all... and it seems many others. My main being a Scrapper, the only thing that's even remotely "fun" is clearing the monsters to get to it (and they give nowhere near enough xp if a poor 45+ gets debt to hope to work it off at any point in the raid itself). Outside of that, the rest is a lagfest to me, with the occasional disconnect; which is fine I suppose, because there isn't much I can do except wait for what seems like forever to run in and get my "Hammi hit" in. Now that they're only basically dual-utility SO's... they just aren't worth the hassle (though even at the old levels I doubt I would bother with the headache of dealing with all of that just to get one anyway).
I'd much prefer a TF that my SG buddies and I could do to get the same kind of reward (even better, a series of TF's so you don't just have to repeat the same one over and over again). I'm not saying get rid of Hammi... leave it for the hard-core folks that actually get some sort of enjoyment out of it (maybe make it a little more scalable perhaps to handle the drop in attendance from folks chosing to do the TF instead) but yeah.. something else would me much more preferable (as well as more kind to my computer, and my eyes).
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
[ QUOTE ]
So - here it is.
Added to the patch notes:
The Hamidon has been increased in difficulty. It is now capable of using one of its attack powers even when Held, Slept, or Stunned.
Evidently Hammy got a laser beam on it's head a long time ago but just now figured out how to use it.
[/ QUOTE ]
OK, at first I thought, "they realize this is a mistake and Cuppa's being ironical."
Then, when I see that this actually did make the patch notes, I thought, "Wow, they're taking being ironical very far."
Because, if a critter is Held, Slept, or Stunned, by definition, it can not attack. If it still attacks, then it's not Held, Slept, or Stunned.
This better be an ironical response to a bug, otherwise, it would be THE SINGLE MOST STUPID THING THE DEVS HAVE EVER DONE.
Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides
[ QUOTE ]
You've let the 'reward' from basically farming the giant monster turn you from a superhero into a grinder.
[/ QUOTE ]
Every raid in existence in every game ever made that is against the AI and not human players is formulaic. Once a working formula is discovered, it can be disseminated to others. They can replay the formula and also succeed, barring poor luck with random number generators.
When you combine this with a reward that any number of people consider worth obtaining, you create a grind. Repeatable actions that produce reward.
Every mission, mob, task force, AV and action in this game boils down to that. But most of the game is based on medium to large scale battles, where there is sufficient randomization in the behavior of a sufficient number of game entities to make the battles feel random.
Even though Hamidon is "composed" of an encounter with a large number of mobs, the do very little. And, in fact, even if they did more, the raid strategy is based around minimizing the effect of their vaguely random actions. When you throw enough players at the problem, the danger that they will double-tap any one becomes small.
Nothing will ever make Hamidon not a grind. Even if they change him dramatically, we will learn the next formula and he will become a grind again. And if they make him completely random, people will stop raiding him, because the investment in time and people is too large to make regular failure a viable option.
So don't judge people because Hamidon is a grind. The players did not make him that way, and the devs cannot effectively change him. He is a grind because he exists and we want the reward of defeating him.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
Here's a suggestion.
If you don't like Hamidon as he's currently implemented?
Don't raid him. Don't go there. Play a lower level alt. Watch a movie. Make out with your SO. Avoid the un-fun, making it clear that it IS un-fun and that you will do other things instead.
You've let the 'reward' from basically farming the giant monster turn you from a superhero into a grinder.
If the post-50 content is unpalatable, or unplayable, just ... don't play it!
And they will notice, and they will either add something new, or fix the Hamidon in some significantly dramatic way. But at this time, there's actually a counter-impetus to changing it to anything better - the whining and howling of the masses when their HO farm gets taken away.
[/ QUOTE ]Normally I'd agree, however we've seen how this turns out by looking at another un-fun part of the game that no one goes to, Faultline. It's still the same as it was in CoH beta and only might be changing in the next issue or two. So we'd have to wait another... 2 and a half years, at least, for them to make the Hamidon fun.
I had one of those moments of clarity on the drive home from work today. So I decided to post it in the suggestions forum.
I do not like the this change to Hamidon (firing while held). It is wrong. It breaks your own rules and sets precedence (the SWG kind) that does not reflect well on the game or its stewards.
Here's an easy way to tell if he's held or not:
Have the controllers look at their combat logs. If they're doing containment damage, he's held.
My characters - all on Virtue.
Gabe's Internet [censored] Theory
RMT spammers WILL steal your credit card.
With Regard to Hamidon 'Not Rendering':
Hamidon disappears because the game is made so that only a certain number of toons are drawn on your screen at one time. Even before you start to fight Hamidon, you may notice that you start to lose sight of far off Mitos or the other team.
When the holding phase starts and you can still see Hamidon, you probably can't see the taunter on the other side of Hamidon. You'll only 'see' about 80 toons right next to you. Even players, or griefing Giant Monsters can't be seen until they're right next to you.
And so, when the attack phase begins and even more players come in to attack, the Hamidon himself will no longer be seen. Luckily, pets don't rely upon a graphical presentation of toons on their computer to see and target Hamidon... they know he's there and we can target through them. (Although, at very crowded raids of 120 or more players, even my pet lost sight of Hamidon.)
If you lose sight of Hamidon, you can try to move away from the crowd by hovering over him, or going near the taunter (suicidal as that may be) and lo and behold, you can see Hamidon again. In fact, I did that one raid to watch how he dies.. it's spectacular!
However, if everyone moved over to the taunter to see Hamidon, you'd probably lose sight of him again.
So, it's not the server or player graphical effects that make people lose sight of Hamidon... its too many people that does it.
Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Brutes have a single target taunt effect in their Primary.
[/ QUOTE ]
Brutes have a 5-target AoE taunt in their primary.
[/ QUOTE ]
I was not refering to the power "Taunt".
I'm refering to the taunt that is in each attack in the primary set. I.E Bone Smasher has a single target taunt effect in it. were as Bone Smasher for a tank has an AoE taunt effect in it
Yes the Power "Taunt" in both tank secondaries and Brute primaries is an AoE that can effect up to 5 Mobs in the area around the target
V-Tronix - Angry Angels
V-Tron Elec/EM - V-Tron X EM/EA
To Build a Better Hero #53098 [Newly edited and looking for Feedback] - Renegade Robots: V-Tron's Task Force # - A Summer Song and A Winters Tail #104106
[ QUOTE ]
Here's an easy way to tell if he's held or not:
Have the controllers look at their combat logs. If they're doing containment damage, he's held.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hamidon is perma-Immobilized.
We do Containment damage to him all the time.
Current main:
Schrodinger's Gun, Dual Pistols/Mental Blaster, Virtue
Avatar: Becky Miyamoto from Pani Poni Dash. Roulette roulette~
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That's great if your system will render him.
Making us depend on something the engine cannot reliably support is not acceptable IMO. And my system is way, way, way beyond the recommended specs.
[/ QUOTE ]
Run in Safe Mode.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's not an answer. I have to run raids in safe mode (until I7...), and I still lose Hamidon regularly. I've always seen this a facet of packet stability, rather than an FX rendering issue.
@TURGENEV - Freedom Server / IRON / B.A.N.E / HORDE
Turg Fiction: Ghost in the Machine Acts III & IV coming 2012!
Turg Fiction: IX is now LIVE on Architect Entertainment!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Other than telling when Hami's held this is a fairly minor issue; if the taunt tank has a decently slotted taunt then it should be really hard for griefers to steal aggro. We had a SG try to grief our raid on Guardian a while back by starting taunt first, then dragging the aggro into the hold group, and while the griefing tank had Hami aggro we were unable to get it away from him.
[/ QUOTE ]
Taunt enhancements affect only the duration of the taunt, not magnitude. It is indeed possible for a griefer to steal aggro from the aggro tank. In fact, it can be done accidently with Gauntlet from a tank that is just trying to get their hit in. I have seen it happen many times in the I4/5/6 hami raids. With the changes to aggro in I7, it may even be easier for the Hami aggro to be diverted then it was in the past.
[/ QUOTE ]
That sounds great so even less holders then since tanks get holds in APPs.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure that the tanker APPs get affected by punchvoke. when that punchvoke aoe bug was on test, my app hold was still single target, even though it should have been affecting everyone in gauntlet range...
*Whew* Thank you Devs. For a second there I actually thought I'd have to go to one of these raids at some point to check it out. Now I know that I don't. I can just keep doing door missions forever and ever and ever and ever and ever... in which, btw, I will only ever spawn an Elite Boss, not your ramped-up AVs. I apreciate all your efforts to completely destroy any interest I have in certain game content. It makes my playing experience simpler.
/sarcasm
On a serious note: Why do you (the Devs) seem to keep trying to make the game harder? I'm being completely ernest in this question. It seems like you find something that players figure out a strategy for, then try to ramp that up so the strategy doesn't work anymore. Are you balancing against "uber-builds"? Not all of us have those, and how about deleting all the guide posts on the boards instead? Do you think this keeps the game "fresh"? It doesn't. It just makes it frustrating every 3-4 months when things like this happen.
Please stop nerfing player strategy. If we figure out a way to do something, that is NOT a bad thing.
I just had another thought: We know that some "Legends system" or some such is in the pipe-line. It's supposed to allow us to make L50 chars stronger. I'd bet that the recent AV/GM and Hamidon changes were in anticipation of that system. If this is the case, then I say why push these difficulty increases to the Live servers now? Why not wait until the Legend system is in place? It's like what they did recently when they changed ToHit Debuff enhancements. Alot of Defs and Trollers took a big hit, until I7 came out 1.5 months later. Why not do them at the same time so the players don't get frustrated waiting to be fixed? I don't get it.
Ofcourse I could be wrong.
[ QUOTE ]
... And they will notice, and they will either add something new, or fix the Hamidon in some significantly dramatic way. ...
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes that's possible. I mean after all, don't you know they made HOs combinable right after they nerfed them? (No, they didn't. In fact, combinable HOs were significantly delayed and touted as a compensation for what ED had done to everyone months later in I6)
If the size of the original ED and nerfed HO threads are any indication, what's more likely to happen is ... nothing.
[ QUOTE ]
It's not an official Issue release until a missing patch note has been confirmed.
Also, trying to add challenge by breaking the rules of the game (attacking while held) is not a good path to walk down.
My outlook on the game's future is a bit more reserved now.
[/ QUOTE ]
Amen. Whenever the players find a better way to play the game the devs seem to jump up and down and say "you can't do that, that's not the way I want it done!" Changing the rules that everyone else has to play by just to keep players following your contained vision is just a bad precedent.
[ QUOTE ]
So - here it is.
Added to the patch notes:
The Hamidon has been increased in difficulty. It is now capable of using one of its attack powers even when Held, Slept, or Stunned.
Evidently Hammy got a laser beam on it's head a long time ago but just now figured out how to use it.
The Mitos are AVs and are acting according to this patch note:
AVs/Heroes and Giant Monsters now ignore threat level damage multipliers for different Archetypes. They are still affected by Taunt as before.
As for the drops? Bug.
[/ QUOTE ]
You might want to pass onto the folks at Cryptic that changes like this don't make the game more fun, just more tedious.
Oh and that I get the message too. Cryptic doesn't want us to raid Hami anymore. If they did, they wouldn't take information AWAY from us.
Lastly, please pass on this "Thanks for nothing".
Virtue: multiple characters.
CoH/V: Woot! Maybe Fun is to be had once again.
Ack! RUN! Regen is glowing mean & green!
If it reduces you, it's a nerf.
If it buffs the mobs, it's challenge.
They are not the same.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Okay, maybe I'm a newb or something but can someone explain to me the "hate" thing and pecking order of damage, I read that patch note about it and just didnt get it.
[/ QUOTE ]
The amount of aggro ("hate") you cause to a mob is determined by the amount of damage you cause, multiplied by your AT modifier.
For heroes
Tankers have the largest aggro multiplier.
Kheldians and Scrappers are close (kheldians might be a little higher)
I think Blasters are third, but since they cause alot of damage, it tends to bring their net aggro up.
controllers and defenders round out the bottom.
For villains
Brutes have the highest aggro multiplier
Not sure about Corruptors, Masterminds, Stalkers and Dominators.... I think Stalkers have the lowest, but because their Assassin Strike causes so much damage at once, they can get alot of aggro.
[/ QUOTE ]
Okay so lets so we have a team with 1 tank 2 scrappers, 1 defender and 1 troller.
So the tank gathers up all the mobs, the only thing the defender is doing is healing, the scrappers are using single target attacks, and the controller does an AoE immbolize. At what point does a mob turn and attack one of the scrappers? or when does the mob realize that the controller is causing more "hate" and turns to attack? Is there are hard cap on damage or endurance usage or attacks or anything countable that causes a mob to turn an attack someone.
Assume that the tank is always taunting during this period, whether punchvoke and using taunt. And how does this differ if the tanker is only using punchvoke?
Also can healing cause hate? Meaning if the defender is healing too much the mobs will turn and attack the defender.
Also is there a difference between debuffs and actual damage, and how much difference is their between the two. Does debuffs cause more "hate" then damage or vice versa?