Massive Hurricane nerf
By
aqshy2004,
Posted on: 2006-04-11 24:48 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Is it possible to just have the tick rate be different for PVP and PVE? Beause that could solve the problem.
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It wouldn't be possible, no. Power effects for PVP and PVE are not decided on a "what zone you're in" basis; they're decided on a "what kind of enemy is attacking you" basis. And Repel ticks the same no matter if you're being attacked by players, NPCs, or even not attacked at all.
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Is it possible to just have the tick rate be different for PVP and PVE? Beause that could solve the problem.
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I'd be for that, or at least the whatever the NPCs have. That's the rhubarb-rubber.
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this sucks.
it's a flat out nerf for pve and pvp.
the power is significantly less useful now because it's even less reliable for positioning or holding mobs.
in pvp, it's now SIGNIFICANTLY EASIER for blasters, scrappers, tanks, stalkers, brutes and corrupters to melee a storm.
the end reduction in NO WAY makes up for the overall downgrading of this power.
sorry all, but this change blows.
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I liked trying to push mobs in corners, dammit. It wasn't as if they couldn't run by me often enough anyways to make it challenging.
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See, this is what puzzles me.
In PvE, mobs cornered with Hurricane will eel out from under it with surprising ease. You actually have to work to keep anything cornered with the power. Disoriented mobs are by far the worst right now, and are practically guaranteed to escape from a hurricane pin. It's been that way since the game was released.
When PvP came along, Hurricane really surprised me (not that I PvP much). I could get people pinned with it and they'd stay that way. I actually did a bit of testing with a friend of mine who also has a stormy on the go, because I couldn't believe that the repel's effects could be so different dependent on the target. However, in practice it turned out that he could easily pin me and there wasn't a whole lot I could do to escape. It didn't seem that the power was working the same way in PvP as I was used to it working in PvE.
So what's different? If the power's the working the same way in both contexts, it has to be the mobs.
Over on test right now, it's a lot harder to keep mobs pinned with Hurricane than it is on live, and it's not all that easy on live. Change the mobs so that they respond to repel more like players and this change could be fine. Otherwise it's just making a difficult set even more tricky to play in PvE.
Cheers,
~R~
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PvE repel is exactly the same strength as before. Yes, it ticks more slowly, which is a double edged sword -- it costs you less endurance to maintain, but it's not quite as good defensively.
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I'll caveat this by saying I haven't had a chance to really try it out yet. That said, this is a LAME excuse. The endurance cost of Hurricane was never an impediment. one stamina reducer and I was good to go.
After the lengths they've gone to to state that they won't balance PvE based on PvP needs, I just kinda find this a cheap cop out. It won't make me give up my stormy, who is my current favorite character, but I'm disappointed.
Was the ToHit Debuff tick rate reduced by half or more, too?
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I think most players are willing to pay the price of higher end cost for a good power
We've seen it plenty of times. Remember when ih cost a bunch? It didnt stop anyone from running it all the time, and no one complained about it. I dont remember saying "ih's cost is way too much for its effect" because it wasnt...ih was uber.
FA...here's another one. Very high end cost. And yet you see it all the time and no one complains because...people are willing to pay that price for its effect.
Hurricane...even with its high end cost and the high end cost of all the other storm powers, people again didnt complain. They made it work, and loved it.
Two of my examples were for scrappers, and I know regen and all the end recovery they get. But every single AT has ways to recover end if you so chose, in their primary, secondary, or APPs. If the end cost really bothers you that much, you can take a power to deal with it, you can slot differently, you can carry a lot of blues, whatever. But we've made it work for quite some time.
So, in the end I think people are more then willing to pay higher end for the great powers, instead of paying less end for a watered-down version.
EDIT:reworded
I don't think that when he said that he ment that lower end was them balenceing the power. Seemed more matter of factly to me.
You know, I really, really loved hurricane pushing/herding (but not the tank-gather-up-50-mobs kind of herding, I mean in the actual sense of herding/pushing things where I want them) on my original main, my fire/storm (still my only character to make it to 50). I take the loss of reliable gentle repulsion (very good melee protection), basically completely based on PVP issues as real insult. This used to be my favorite power, the crowning jewel of the storm set (for a user that knew what they were doing).
Would it be so hard just to nerf the PVP effectiveness? Put in a separate check for players and non-players? Maybe...but this still seems silly. I don't think a gentle swirling breeze is a good substitute for a raging hurricane.
I won't cry DOOOM yet, but I suspect that I probably will after I go home and test it.
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Well this is one way to make trick arrow look better. Expect to see to-hit buffs nerfed to make Trick Arrow even better. Wait, that happened.
Oh snap! Heals are probably next! DOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!!!!!
All joking aside, this does have a rather unpleasent side effect in PvE that makes storm harder to use now. Storm always had the ability to create chaos but Hurricane was a toll that good stormers could use to mitigate the chaos.
From checking it out myself, it seems as if the ability of a player to play smart and use their powers to compliment their other powers has been nerfed indirectly by this change to Hurricane. The loss of positioning power means that mobs can frequently run by a Stormer only to be repelled at the wrong time and the stormer can end up scattering mobs worse than his own power.
For small groups, this doesn't seem to be a problem, but when there are large groups of enemy and your own group is spreading out the agro, it can cause alot of problems.
While the developers may have felt that it was necessary to change this power, I feel they have down a disservice to the defender community. Controllers are not as hard hit by this as defenders are, and this change just put storm controllers even further ahead of storm defenders when it comes to the ability to use storm powers to maximum effect.
That is the other side effect of this change.
I wish I could say I was surprised, but Im not, just very, very, very disappointed. Something is wrong in this game, I have played a lot of MMOs for many years and I have never seen the kind of wholesale nerfing I see here at every turn.
Patches are not defined by the new content they bring but the capabilities that they take away
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I feel they have down a disservice to the defender community. Controllers are not as hard hit by this as defenders are, and this change just put storm controllers even further ahead of storm defenders when it comes to the ability to use storm powers to maximum effect.
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Yeah, thats true. One difference I've noticed between storm controllers and storm defenders...storm controllers run hurricane when its absolutely necessary, but for the most part they dont...their AoE mez powers are the ultimate accuracy debuff. Storm defenders on the other hand, from what I ve noticed, run hurricane from the second they zone into the mission, and they run it continuously.
It's about time. 
That power was so cheap.
This just sucks. Every freaking character I have played has been nerfed to high heaven. My regen scrapper sits on the shelf because of the huge nerfs to IH and basicaly all the powers in that line, and the huge nerf to stealth as a power.
So Now I play my Storm defender, and I find out most of my primary powers are equal or better in the hands of a controller since slows are controller territory. ED made the secondaries largely worthless, making soloing much more slow and painful.
Now my debuffs are nerfed significantly. And to top it off, my signature power has been nerfed signifcantly! Not only is it less effective at debuffing, but now it will not even protect me from melee damage as it was orginaly implemented. We all know how good defender self-defense is (piss poor), lets make it worse. Sure Huirricane was very powerful, but it was easily overcome with any ranged power, including mez, sleep, holds which shut it off. Gee Stalkers can't one shot a defender with hurricane on, oh the inhumanity! Instead of making folks have to take a level 20 pool power, and all that entails to get it, to overcome it like most players have to do to even see a double stealthed stalker, we just nerf the power. Why? because it is just a defender, they are supposed to be crapped on. Remember when Defenders had more hit points than blasters and controllers? Remember when they had some blasts that actualy were worth using? Remember when debuffing was something valuable to team and was not a poor man's controller? I do. And I miss that game.
Gee, I get break on end costs for it now...whoop de doo!!!! Of course wasn't ED and our "largely worthless inherent power supposed to help with that?
You guys beat everything. All you guys do is nerf, nerf, nerf. We ask for more content for 35-40 range in CoH and you ignore it. We ask for customizable colors and animations on our powers, screw you. Scrappers have how many choices for power sets compared to all of the other classes???? Of course Masterminds get new ones ahead of scrappers, it is very clear, everything you are doing is for CoV and virtualy nothing for CoH. The evidence supports this.
I am fed up. You grow a charcter over a long period of time, and they continue to be reduced in effectiveness. Was the game too easy? For some classes clearly. Are you doing a good job of involving players in the solution, hell no.
All we get these days are stealth nerfs, where someone goes to test and finds out about the nerf or a veiled dev reference in a rare post hints at something.
I am very disgruntled and I am not hopeful where the direction this game is headed. Even the release of I7 is a joke as I imagine there will be a Wednesday update talking about how in I7 there will be differnt colors of stone as you string along the users for at least another couple of months feeding them breadcrumbs and holding the carrot on the proverbial string in front of all the jack [censored] we have become.
Ouch, I really really don't like this change.
Come on, 100 people do PvP, 2000 don't... why again do we have to affect 2000 people so 100 have it better?
I used hurricane as a 'melee repeler', when things went south I would turn on hurricane so mobs wouldn't get to me... now that's not possible with a slower 'tick' that just means the mob will be repelled from my corpse 
Well there will be a free respec with I7 so guess it's time to remove hurricane from my set, pity as it made perfect sense RP-wise, but I'm not picking a power only so I can use it in Pocket-D for flavor
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This just sucks. Every freaking character I have played has been nerfed to high heaven. My regen scrapper sits on the shelf because of the huge nerfs to IH and basicaly all the powers in that line, and the huge nerf to stealth as a power.
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Regen is still considered the best overall scrapper secondary for PvE and PvP. While it's not as head and shoulders above the other secondaries as it was, most regen scrappers find it still to be extremely playable, except when fighting spawns of +7s or trying to solo a mid-large sized team's worth of spawns.
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So Now I play my Storm defender, and I find out most of my primary powers are equal or better in the hands of a controller since slows are controller territory. ED made the secondaries largely worthless, making soloing much more slow and painful.
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Well, I can't argue that there's a problem with powers from defender primaries being as or more useful in the hands of a controller who gets it as the secondary, but this has little to do with ED. The controller version of defender powers get exactly the same nerfs. Controller versions of some powers were ALWAYS better than the defender versions.
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Now my debuffs are nerfed significantly. And to top it off, my signature power has been nerfed signifcantly! Not only is it less effective at debuffing, but now it will not even protect me from melee damage as it was orginaly implemented. We all know how good defender self-defense is (piss poor), lets make it worse. Sure Huirricane was very powerful, but it was easily overcome with any ranged power, including mez, sleep, holds which shut it off. Gee Stalkers can't one shot a defender with hurricane on, oh the inhumanity! Instead of making folks have to take a level 20 pool power, and all that entails to get it, to overcome it like most players have to do to even see a double stealthed stalker, we just nerf the power. Why? because it is just a defender, they are supposed to be crapped on.
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Actually, this is the rare example of powers being nerfed in PvP BECAUSE of PvE. With the upcoming defense changes, higher level and higher rank enemies (which most defenders fight) will have significantly reduced to hit, meaning that a lower strength debuff will have a proportionately equal (or in the case of very high level/rank enemies) greater effect than it does now. It's a nerf when fighting even to +1, nearly equal in effectiveness against +2s, and a buff when faced with +3s or higher IIRC. Unfortunately, because of the way the game is coded, they can't make this power work differently against players than against mobs. I suspect you'll find that stalkers will still have a very difficult time AS'ing you with hurricane on.
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Gee, I get break on end costs for it now...whoop de doo!!!! Of course wasn't ED and our "largely worthless inherent power supposed to help with that?
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In the case of my storm defender, both helped my end usage noticeably.
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You guys beat everything. All you guys do is nerf, nerf, nerf. We ask for more content for 35-40 range in CoH and you ignore it. We ask for customizable colors and animations on our powers, screw you.
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Animations and new zones are significantly more work than power tweaks. Significantly. As in a lot. This issue was focused on COV content, and we knew that from the beginning. While I'm not thrilled with it, it was necessary in order for some of the content of both games (PvP, particularly base raids) to not be a one-sided affair. This issue will bring a new zone shared by the games and a new COV zone. It brings some new COV powersets which may make their way over to COH, even if only some of the powers do as epics (Who wouldn't want to see some of the electric melee/armor powers as scrapper or tank APPs?). Customizable colors may not be a big deal, but I'd guess they're combining them with customized powers/weapons, and that is a huge deal. The devs have repeatedly noted what a huge time sink animations are to do. They've stated that they are working on this, and I'm inclined to believe them. I'm pretty sure the purpose is not to 'screw us'.
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Scrappers have how many choices for power sets compared to all of the other classes????
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6 Primaries, 4 secondaries.
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Of course Masterminds get new ones ahead of scrappers, it is very clear, everything you are doing is for CoV and virtualy nothing for CoH. The evidence supports this.
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MMs have 4 primaries and 4 secondaries. That's less btw. Yes, we knew this issue was going to be mainly a COV focus since they released the first info months ago. It's their new game and they want to get the two games a bit balanced to make the inter-game content more doable, which means more usable content for BOTH games.
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I am fed up.
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Sorry to hear that.
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You grow a charcter over a long period of time, and they continue to be reduced in effectiveness. Was the game too easy? For some classes clearly. Are you doing a good job of involving players in the solution, hell no.
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Well, that's just wrong. Yes, they ignore the vast majority of player suggestions. Why? Because there's thousands upon thousands of them, and most of them are undoable or would be just bad for the game. There are several things that were suggested by players, although those players may have come to regret them. Notably travel suppression and ED were player suggestions. More recently, the bodyguard power coming to MMs is the result of player complaints about MMs ability to PvP I would guess, and Castle worked closely with a number of players on the new claws changes. The mob 'to hit' changes are the results of a steady complaint of defense not scaling v. resistance which does scale.
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get these days are stealth nerfs, where someone goes to test and finds out about the nerf or a veiled dev reference in a rare post hints at something.
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I agree that there are too many changes which get missed in the patch notes. However, I see no reason why they would do so intentionally since they have to know by now that those changes will be picked up rather quickly by the players. I find Statesman's explanation that it's due primarilly to sloppiness believable. I don't think that's an explanation we should be satisfied about, but it's hardly a conspiracy. Hopefully they'll get their inter-department communication improved.
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I am very disgruntled and I am not hopeful where the direction this game is headed. Even the release of I7 is a joke as I imagine there will be a Wednesday update talking about how in I7 there will be differnt colors of stone as you string along the users for at least another couple of months feeding them breadcrumbs and holding the carrot on the proverbial string in front of all the jack [censored] we have become.
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Yeah, I think we could tell you were disgruntled. However, while you may consider yourself a "jack[censored]" for being "strung along", I still enjoy the game a great deal. I level just as rapidly as before ED, even though I'm fighting enemies closer to my level, and enjoy having to figure out the best way to use my powers rather than mashing buttons. Obviously, the devs can't keep everyone happy, and you're version of a fun game is probably different than mine. But the tone of your post is completely unwarranted. You act surprised that I-7 is COVcentric. We've known this for months. COV had several holes that needed to be filled in, it needed to catch up with COH in terms of level cap, and needed a new zone when it did, and even after I-7 will be a bit short on powerset choices compared to COH. If you can't understand or accept that, no one's making you play. If you think this sort of insulting rant furthers your cause, you're wrong.
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PvE repel is exactly the same strength as before. Yes, it ticks more slowly, which is a double edged sword -- it costs you less endurance to maintain, but it's not quite as good defensively.
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Last time I checked Hurricane didn't draw additional endurance for repelling foes. It was different from the likes of Whirlwind and the kinetics Repel power in that sense as those actually do knockback not repel.
So the endurance cost is not lowered due to the less frequent pulses.
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PvE repel is exactly the same strength as before. Yes, it ticks more slowly, which is a double edged sword -- it costs you less endurance to maintain, but it's not quite as good defensively.
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Last time I checked Hurricane didn't draw additional endurance for repelling foes. It was different from the likes of Whirlwind and the kinetics Repel power in that sense as those actually do knockback not repel.
So the endurance cost is not lowered due to the less frequent pulses.
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The endurance cost was per pulse. So, since there are less pulses, there is a smaller cost. The # of enemies affected is immaterial to the pulses.
The game ends at 50.
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PvE repel is exactly the same strength as before. Yes, it ticks more slowly, which is a double edged sword -- it costs you less endurance to maintain, but it's not quite as good defensively.
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Are you not thinking of Repel, Whirlwind and the pother powers that have a cost for eacmob repelled? Hurricane has no such cost, and thus won't get an end cost rebate. Or am I misundestanding something?
Hurricane costs you end per tic, I think.
This change is a real bummer to me. Did Storm defenders need to be made substantially more difficult to play in PvE? As a long time player of the AT I don't think so. Hurricane was one of the set defining powers; now it is approximately 1/4 as effective as it was. Super, shades of the CoF over kill nerf all over again (once a really unique and cool power).
Now that the thing pulses 1/4 as often, has the debuff been extended to be at least 4 times as long?
so...
are hurricane's -range and -to hit debuffs only applied once per second now as well? or is it just the repel that was nerfed?
if i have to stand next to a mob for a full second to land my debuffs i'm going to be eating a lot of dirt...
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Ouch, I really really don't like this change.
Come on, 100 people do PvP, 2000 don't... why again do we have to affect 2000 people so 100 have it better?
I used hurricane as a 'melee repeler', when things went south I would turn on hurricane so mobs wouldn't get to me... now that's not possible with a slower 'tick' that just means the mob will be repelled from my corpse
Well there will be a free respec with I7 so guess it's time to remove hurricane from my set, pity as it made perfect sense RP-wise, but I'm not picking a power only so I can use it in Pocket-D for flavor
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I didn't know there was 2000 people who ran Hurricane...
Yeah I liked Ballista the way it was.
It was a challange, it was hard to do, and when I got done I actually felt like I had fought a real battle. But the PvE crowd [censored] and cried so much that the only real challange in this game got nerfed.
I just want to voice my disapproval and disgust here in this thread. I'm sick to death of useful powers for PvE getting nerfed for PvP play.
Note to Devs: You ARE having PvPers leave this game for other games, so stop neglecting the larger player base of people who prefer PvE.
I don't care too much about PvP nerfs, but totally negating WHY I took the power...to protect squishes, to herdicane, to cause more chaos when things are going downhill..... I'm just sick about it.
---sincerely, a Stormie since October 2004
Is it possible to just have the tick rate be different for PVP and PVE? Beause that could solve the problem.