Massive Hurricane nerf
By
aqshy2004,
Posted on: 2006-04-11 24:48 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
This is a bone, the fix for the problem is a nerf to Storm Defenders Only Active Defense other than steamy mist which offers very little these days after suppression and reduction in resistance.
The power did not need to be changed and now Storm Defenders are pretty much screwed if they want to PvP. All because the stalkers whined that their was two single ATs with one powerset that had a strong defense against their attack. We all know that stalkers should be able to one shot anyone. That is the real reason behind this change!
I am getting really sick of the nerfs.
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Wanna know whats ironic? I never pvped with my storm cause he was way to easy to beat. Hurricanne was like a giant kick me sign for anyone with any mez or ranged power. It honestly wasnt worht playing when your constantly held then 1-2 shotted.
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Bingo. Same reason I stopped PvPing with my Stormer. Anytime I got too far from my team, I had my own personal Dominator waiting to mez me then proceed to 3-4 shot me. I got what I deserved when I strayed from my team, yet I didn't whine to nerf the Dominator's mez powers. Then I started getting TP Foed into the middle of a group of villains who all fired off attacks before Hurricane could debuff them as another example. Sounds like they found a way to nullify me so much I decided to take my Stormer out of PvP permanently. Despite all this, you will find no posts of mine advocating nerfs to TP foe or mezzing. I realized I had a weakness and without a TEAM, there was no effective way of compensating for them.
Screw PvP if this is what it brings....i.e. enough whiners to ruin powers when they can't hit the "I win" button because their powers are only effective on 4 out of 5 ATs. Yet somehow, they can conveniently forget their team, how they built it and how they use tactics to make it sound like Hurricane and the Stormer are the only ones defeating them.
Unfortunately the Devs aren't that bright and I am almost convinced they love pissing people off for the perverse joy of hearing them rant. The Devs simply just need to make two sets of game rules. one that kicks in the PVP areas and one for the regular areas. I understand scrappers and tanks are all pissed off because they can't one shot a defender and have to rely on their team mates to take them out. But my god we can't have that that would mean you would have to act as a team? GASP!!! Teamwork. But if the Devs have to nerf just for PVP because some whiners don't know how to think, well The Devs really need to just have two sets of rules one for the PVP area and the other for the rest of us. I say stop nerfing for the braindead!!!
I will repeat it a few times cause the devs don't always pay attention
ONE SET OF RULES FOR PVP AREAS AND ONE SET OF RULES FOR PVE AREAS. THAT WAY YOU DON'T PISS OFF YOUR CUSTOMERS.
ONE SET OF RULES FOR PVP AREAS AND ONE SET OF RULES FOR PVE AREAS. THAT WAY YOU DON'T PISS OFF YOUR CUSTOMERS.
ONE SET OF RULES FOR PVP AREAS AND ONE SET OF RULES FOR PVE AREAS. THAT WAY YOU DON'T PISS OFF YOUR CUSTOMERS.
ONE SET OF RULES FOR PVP AREAS AND ONE SET OF RULES FOR PVE AREAS. THAT WAY YOU DON'T PISS OFF YOUR CUSTOMERS.
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WARNING: quite possibly my first CoH Forums rant. Ignore if you are so inclined.
Please add me to the list of people who could care less about PvP. Been there, done that enough to know for certain that it's not why I play this game. Fun now and then, but that's not where it's at for me really. If I cared about PvP at all I'd have already posted a ton of rants about how "unfair" force bubble or energy melee stuns, or <insert whatever power you like here> are. But I haven't. I mean complaining about being one-shotted by an assassin strike? Come on! That's why they're called "assassins." Just like hurricanes are called hurricanes for a reason too ...
So to see a PvP change take such a huge chunk of the fun of my playing my PvE-99.7%-of-the-time Storm Defender (who's still far from 50, which is about the only time I PvP with a character, after 50) rely honks me off.
I had just used my 34+ respec to switch from Flight to Teleport so that I could Mist up to a big group of mobs, cast Freezing Rain, shoot Tenebrous Tentacles, summon a Lightning Storm, teleport to the other side of the group, and push them back into the Storm. Good times! I was having a ball with that combo! Trapping a boss in a corner and throwing a tornado at him is good clean fun too! Bully the bully: what could be more super-heroic than that?
There's a reason why my top 4 characters are a tank, a scrapper who likes to tank, a storm defender who also likes to tank, and an MM: it's how I have fun! I do not appreciate PvP changes that severely alter my ability to have fun in PvE.
I haven't played since release without noticing a few things, and since you've indulged me thus far, I'll share some more thoughts ...
The way I see it, MMORPG PvP is just like collectible card gaming (you know, Magic and everything since): people who don't use a particular power/card/combo will always whine about said power/card/combo being overpowered. It doesn't matter that there are a number of ways to beat it. People are people, and over-competitive people don't like to lose ... ever. When they do lose, it's not their fault, it's always somebody else's. It has to be that their opponent used a cheap tactic or got lucky or whatever.
How do I know this? Because I've been there. I'm an overly competitive person myself. I'm playing this game (and largely avoiding PvP) because of it. There was a time when I was a regionally ranked player in a popular-at-the-time collectible card game. I picked the game up quicker than most, got good, won a lot, and kept winning. When I did lose, I told myself that it was because of cheap-tactic A or over-powered-combo B, or whatever. What's funny is that I would swear to avoid using said tactic/combo myself (even though I had the cards to do it) and instead vowed to find a way to beat it.
That's just how I dealt with it. I never once posted a nerf-this rant. It didn't matter how many other people were crying nerf, I considered it my job to figure out how to beat it. My job, not the makers of the game. But that was just me.
A funny thing about PvPing, collectible card gaming, and many other competitions that are completely irrelevent to the real world is that the people who don't get good and win a lot eventually quit and move onto something else, leaving just the "good" players to beat up on each other until the game dies.
To close, please don't kill my beloved Hurricane, at least in PvE. Do what you like with powers in PvP. PvP will never be 100% fair, and even if it was 100% fair, people would still say it wasn't, because in most any competition, there is a loser, and more often than not, the loser does not enjoy losing. This of course leaves only winners who then create more losers, and so on, until there is noone left. "There can be only one" may work for Highlander, but it makes for a lousy player base. I agree with an ealier poster: the future of this game lies not in PvP, but in new content, powersets, rewards, events and, in short, continuing to feel super. And one of my favorite ways to feel super in this game is to push the bad guys around, both figuratively, and in the case of my stormer, literally.
Thanks for your time.
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Um wow. Kid you need to start thinking in combat. First of all it isn't Hurricane that is unbalanced its the fact your team is unbalanced. 8 man melee team?? I suppose I should put together a 8 man team of healers and whine like a 5 year old to the devs. Why can't I kill these tanks? Wah poor me I can't think why that could be. I would be sooooooooo happy if they trashed pvp tomorrow. It continues to do nothing but destroy the game for the majority of us.
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problem is, man, you're not talking about a single power.
you're talking about the problem YOU had killing squishies when youre team went up against another team.
the only thing you noticed was hurricane.
you missed the mez protection, missed the heals and missed the damage coming in from the other team.
it wasn't your team against hurricane.
it was your team against theirs...and they brought a lot to the table. you can too with a little work.
trust me, i've seen it happen.
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No. I'm talking about problems the team had taking out a Stormie with like 2 people on his/her team with more people on my team on numerous occasions. I'm not talking about mez protection that didn't happens, I'm not talking about buffs that didn't happen, I'm talking about players who couldn't even get near to touch someone with hurricane so the Stormy didn't even need heals. When 8 people who are melee are surrounding a stormy and can't touch him, that's a problem. Seem people pinned against walls and corners and bus stops is a problem. The devs think so too. I think it is/was/maybe still is overpowered in PvP. No one AT should have to turn on a toggle and just stand there and just use one power.
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Um wow. Kid you need to start thinking in combat. First of all it isn't Hurricane that is unbalanced its the fact your team is unbalanced. 8 man melee team?? I suppose I should put together a 8 man team of healers and whine like a 5 year old to the devs. Why can't I kill these tanks? Wah poor me I can't think why that could be. I would be sooooooooo happy if they trashed pvp tomorrow. It continues to do nothing but destroy the game for the majority of us.
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All other ATs have at least a fair chance of at hitting one another(except say those bubbled) and effecting one another regardless of melee or range. To say that an 8 mean team of melee shouldn't have a fair chance at dealing with one toon running one power is not balance.
As for PvP ruinining our toons.. Yes, if it effects PvE too which it has, then nerfs aren't a good thing. I think nerfs do need to happen in PvP simply because our powers and our ATs weren't made to be equal in PvP because they were based on PvE. Depending on what powersets you choose for your AT, you served this or that role in PvE. How is a healer supposed to compete in PvP? They were meant to heal in PvE so for someone who chose all healing and buffing powers and either didn't choose or didn't have much to choose from with offensive dmg powers, how are they supposed to defeat people in PvP?? I've always thought there should be two seperate ways powers function in PvE and PvP. We're talking about nerfs that didn't happen for over a year into CoH until Arena came about and were told "we didn't nerf because of PvP" which is a bunch of crap. How do you balance in PvP? It needs to be done in a way that each AT has a chance at taking out another AT in someway shape or form, but how do they do this without screwing up what your AT is supposed to be to begin with? No easy solution. I don't think nerfing things should apply to PvE powers unless they are far overpowered for PvE. Things like herding a massive amount of mobs with Dreck was an exploit(I guess) and should have been lowered. Shrugs. I dunno. Depends if u ask a tank.. Or a regen scrapper. Or a stormie. Everyone needs to try and look at their own AT fairly in PvP and look beyond "I like my toon just the way he/she is!" and look at the dynamics of all the other ATs and situations. Sure I didn't like my Regen nerfed in PvP AND PvE, but I've learned to live with my new set of multiple click powers that all do the same thing... Heal. Self Empathy am I, I guess. But now they broke the powers and how they worked originally and homogenized them all. Sigh.
KidQwik:
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You just proved my point why hurricane needed the nerf bat. All those things melee is supposed to do for ONE power? Why? Cause you should be able to use one power and that's it while everyone else should have to do x amount of things like waste inf on non working temp powers, form teams that have range or mez, change travel powers, etc, ALL to deal with ONE power???? Why it needed to be nerfed. Come to Justice, let my Stalker give u a hug.
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You do realize the irony of your position here, don't you?
Each and every one of these suggestions has been made by the Stalker community regarding Assassin's Strike.
If a person shouldn't "have to [. . .] waste inf on non working temp powers", then you'd agree with me that a person shouldn't have to "waste inf on non working temp powers" like IR Goggles "ALL to deal with ONE power????" ...right?
If a person shouldn't have to "form teams that have range or mez", then you'd agree with me that a person shouldn't have to "form teams that have" +Perception powers "ALL to deal with ONE power????" ...right?
If a person shouldn't have to "change travel powers", then you'd agree with me that people shouldn't have to "change travel powers "ALL to deal with ONE power????" ...right?
These were your words, by the way, not mine. Your logic certainly applies equally to Assassin's Strike as it does Hurricane.
So the next time Stalkers come out and tell people to buy IR Goggles to defend themselves from Assassin's Strike, you'll be right there on the forefront arguing against those people... right? The next time Stalkers come out and tell people that they "just need to team" to avoid Assassin's Strike one-shots, you'll be right there arguing as passionately against them as you're arguing here... right? The next time Stalkers tell people that they need to "just use their travel powers more unpredictably", I should expect to see you in the thread posting again and again about why that's wrong... right?
Given your own logic for nerfing Hurricane, imagine my shock when I found the following post (click link):
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I'd leave Stalker's Hide alone though. They are pretty weak without Hide and since you can buy IR goggles in a zone if your side is doing well along with all the leadership powers tossed on, this should be adequate. (emphasis mine)
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I'd sure hate to see you applying a double standard... That would just be wrong, wouldn't it?
40062: The World's Worst PUG
84008: Jenkins's Guide to Super-Villainy
230187: The Hero of Kings Row
No H8 - 08.04.10
@Circuit Boy - Moderator - Pride global chat channel
Despite any disagreements I might have had with Circuit in the past, he is dead on here. That is the biggest double standard I have ever seen.
When I first began to PvP with my Stalker, and realized I could do very little against a Storm, yeah, I complained. Then I thought to myself many of the things Circuit has stated, about how "Hey, that Empath defender can't do anything to defend himself against my 'ONE power' Assassin Strike, which even defeats her... I guess thats balance that I can't do anything against a Stormy or Force Bubble.
Thanks for eight fun years, Paragon.
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If a person shouldn't "have to [. . .] waste inf on non working temp powers", then you'd agree with me that a person shouldn't have to "waste inf on non working temp powers" like IR Goggles "ALL to deal with ONE power????" ...right?
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IR Goggles WORK. I have used them on my Scrapper, Blaster, and Peacebringer in SC and I have seen Stalkers without perception buffs applied to me by others.. In regards to Web and Stun grenades which have a very low ACC on them, they have never worked on any Stormie unbuffed, never mind any other AT I've used them on just to get rid of them because all they seem to do is blow up and miss. The "grenades" in PvP suck, plain and simple. IR Toggles work though. If they increase the ACC on grenades to hit all the time and Stun and knock off Hurricane then you can keep Hurricane unnerfed because there will be an effective temp power to use against hurricane like their is an effective temp power to use against stalkers.
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If a person shouldn't have to "form teams that have range or mez", then you'd agree with me that a person shouldn't have to "form teams that have" +Perception powers "ALL to deal with ONE power????" ...right?
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See above post about effective single temp power to use against Stalkers, no team needed.
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If a person shouldn't have to "change travel powers", then you'd agree with me that people shouldn't have to "change travel powers "ALL to deal with ONE power????" ...right?
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Totally agree here. No one should have to change a travel power to deal with a single power. There is a distinct difference in jumping all around mindlessly to avoid a stalker's AS than there is to jump and try to place a precision placed punch on the head to knock off hurricane which most likely won't happen because you'll be repelled or ACC debuffed so much as to not hit anyway.. Jumping around to avoid stalkers mean a stalker will have to work to AS or even hit you as well.
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These were your words, by the way, not mine. Your logic certainly applies equally to Assassin's Strike as it does Hurricane.
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See above comment.
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So the next time Stalkers come out and tell people to buy IR Goggles to defend themselves from Assassin's Strike, you'll be right there on the forefront arguing against those people... right? The next time Stalkers come out and tell people that they "just need to team" to avoid Assassin's Strike one-shots, you'll be right there arguing as passionately against them as you're arguing here... right? The next time Stalkers tell people that they need to "just use their travel powers more unpredictably", I should expect to see you in the thread posting again and again about why that's wrong... right?
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Wrong. I never would say that because there is an effective temp power to purchase against stalkers. It's the first thing I buy in SC if the temp power is available. If it's not, I constantly jump around, fly, SS, or SJ(all depends on what toon I'm on) or do Dragon's Tail on my scrapper all the time to try to hit them if I can't see them and they may be around me.
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Given your own logic for nerfing Hurricane, imagine my shock when I found the following post (click link):
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I'd leave Stalker's Hide alone though. They are pretty weak without Hide and since you can buy IR goggles in a zone if your side is doing well along with all the leadership powers tossed on, this should be adequate. (emphasis mine)
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I'd sure hate to see you applying a double standard... That would just be wrong, wouldn't it?
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I'm not applying a double standard. As I said above a few times, there is an effective temp power against Hide. If I had tactics or someone on the team had tactics, I could see them too. That power would effect the whole team. There isn't a power someone can cast on a melee or whole team to simply walk right up to a stormy using hurricane and hit them, is there??? But there are two powers that can effectively see a stalker that you can purchase or have cast on you and it works on ranged or melee toons. Is there an anti-hurricane power that can be applied to toons?? I don't even think Vengeance does that.
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If a I'm not applying a double standard. As I said above a few times, there is an effective temp power against Hide. If I had tactics or someone on the team had tactics, I could see them too. That power would effect the whole team. There isn't a power someone can cast on a melee or whole team to simply walk right up to a stormy using hurricane and hit them, is there??? But there are two powers that can effectively see a stalker that you can purchase or have cast on you and it works on ranged or melee toons. Is there an anti-hurricane power that can be applied to toons?? I don't even think Vengeance does that.
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First of all you are applying a double standard. You said that you didnt think it was right that everyone has to change tactics just to accomadate one power, and that the one power can so drastically turn the tide of battle. A stalker can do that. Teams DO adjust their tactics to deal with them and a stalker with as CAN drastically alter the tide of battle.
Secondly there are powers that melee have that ignore hurricannes repel and -acc. I believe rage from invul. does this. I remember when the arenas first came out a invul/mace tank friend of mine walked right through hurricanne like it wasnt even there and stunned me. i could be wrong, but iirc mog also negates the repel. Any power that gives a large bonus to tohit will negate the -tohit on hurricanne. SO there are inherent options to melee.
Jay Doherty: Yes, there was this one night that I was ready to go home but had to drop the browns off at the super bowl before I left for home. While on the throne it hit me. I stayed for a few more hours and that why we have the pain pads in the game.
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First of all you are applying a double standard. You said that you didnt think it was right that everyone has to change tactics just to accomadate one power, and that the one power can so drastically turn the tide of battle. A stalker can do that. Teams DO adjust their tactics to deal with them and a stalker with as CAN drastically alter the tide of battle.
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People have to have tactics in dealing with Stalkers. They can either get goggles, jump around, use tactics, etc. All these things CAN thwart a Stalkers Hide because a Stalker can't just stand still and not hit someone, and once he does AS, it drops, he can be seen even without temp powers or buffs and killed very easily. A stalker has a risk by using AS while hidden. It drops. There goes his power to not be seen and he is vulnerable because he used another power. Many stormies use just Hurricane and run around with it on. Even if stormy uses another power it doesn't drop. And there is no incentive to use any other powers to have it drop if it was made to do that because that ONE power which is continously on which is a toggle, effectively negates all melee attacks that can't get past it. That's all they need to use. There is no penalization like stalkers have when they AS and hide drops, or Inv or Mog drops, or if an elec blaster uses Thunderous blast and all his end is gone and he can't regain end for a bit without popping blues on top of all his toggles have dropped... Hurricane stays on and does it's overpowered job. One power. All the stormie needs to use if he so choices with no penalty for over use like the others.
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Secondly there are powers that melee have that ignore hurricannes repel and -acc. I believe rage from invul. does this. I remember when the arenas first came out a invul/mace tank friend of mine walked right through hurricanne like it wasnt even there and stunned me. i could be wrong, but iirc mog also negates the repel. Any power that gives a large bonus to tohit will negate the -tohit on hurricanne. SO there are inherent options to melee.
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Most of these powers are clicks which drop or can't be used in SC. I know MoG can't because it's too high to use in SC(if i remember correctly). If they made Hurricane a higher level power that could be used in Warburg and the higher level PvP zones that came out that would work(but I think that wouldn't be fair for Stormies either to be honest). I know they did it some villains powers intially where they swapped one power to a lower power and made a lower power a higher power. Too late though in the game to do that. However, even if it was the case that Hurricane could be used only in the higher zones along with the powers that could counter it, even then MoG has a long recharge as well as the others. That's fine though, because at least then they have the powers to be able to use there against hurricane even if i has a loing recharge. Then you'd have hurricane running all the time there too. So maybe a click for it and bubblers would be an equal compromise. If a scrapper can't perma those clicks because of the long recharge times and have to use other powers, maybe making hurricane a click where stormies would have to use other powers is fair too.
KidQwik:
Wheeee!
The Merry-Go-Round you're on is fun!
...but you're spinning. Face it.
First off, you're vastly overselling IR Goggles' effectiveness and vastly underselling the utility of Web Grenade and Stun Grenade to make your point. I know from personal experience that IR Goggles are not enough to see a Stalker using both Hide and Stealth. _Castle_ has even confirmed that it requires more than IR Goggles and Tactics together for a non-Defender to perceive a Stalker who is using Stealth and Hide. See _Castle_'s post on IR Goggles (click link), where he said "You are a Scrapper, no? Probably, these two powers [IR Goggles and Tactics] will not allow you to see a Hide+Stealth Stalker, *if* the Tactics is your power." In fact, I'd go so far as saying you are actually lying when you said "IR Goggles WORK. I have used them on my Scrapper, Blaster, and Peacebringer in SC and I have seen Stalkers without perception buffs applied to me by others..", because this claim cannot be true unless you wish to maintain that _Castle_ is lying about IR Goggles' effectiveness.
So much for your first attempted counterpoint.
Second, you far too easily dismiss my point about "needing a team", but that was one of your own primary objections to Hurricane. You don't believe you should have to "rely on a team" to deal with Hurricane, but in your own post, you tell others that they have to rely on teams who have the Leadership Power Pool in order to deal with Stalkers' Assassin Strike. That's a double-standard, pure and simple. Add to this the fact that, again, _Castle_ has confirmed that it takes more than Tactics alone to perceive a Stalker who's using Hide and Stealth, and your point here is really out of gas anyway.
So much for your second attempted counterpoint.
Face it. You're adhering to a double standard when it comes to Hurricane. You tell others they have to rely on teams to deal with Stalkers' Hide, but apparently what's good for the goose is not good for the gander, and you don't think Stalkers should have to rely on teams to deal with Hurricane. That's a double standard, pure and simple. You argue that Stalkers should not have to rely on "unreliable" temporary powers such as Web Grenade or Stun Grenade to deal with Hurricane, yet you tell others that they should rely on IR Goggles to deal with Stalkers' Hide, even when a Developer, _Castle_, has said IR Goggles are inadequate for the job. Again, apparently what's good for others is not good enough for Stalkers. This is yet another double standard.
And this doesn't even address the point that Assassin's Strike outright kills people in one shot; all Hurricane does is impede your ability to one-shot a Defender.
40062: The World's Worst PUG
84008: Jenkins's Guide to Super-Villainy
230187: The Hero of Kings Row
No H8 - 08.04.10
@Circuit Boy - Moderator - Pride global chat channel
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KidQwik:
Wheeee!
The Merry-Go-Round you're on is fun!
...but you're spinning. Face it.
First off, you're vastly overselling IR Goggles' effectiveness and vastly underselling the utility of Web Grenade and Stun Grenade to make your point. I know from personal experience that IR Goggles are not enough to see a Stalker using both Hide and Stealth. _Castle_ has even confirmed that it requires more than IR Goggles and Tactics together for a non-Defender to perceive a Stalker who is using Stealth and Hide. See _Castle_'s post on IR Goggles (click link), where he said "You are a Scrapper, no? Probably, these two powers [IR Goggles and Tactics] will not allow you to see a Hide+Stealth Stalker, *if* the Tactics is your power." In fact, I'd go so far as saying you are actually lying when you said "IR Goggles WORK. I have used them on my Scrapper, Blaster, and Peacebringer in SC and I have seen Stalkers without perception buffs applied to me by others..", because this claim cannot be true unless you wish to maintain that _Castle_ is lying about IR Goggles' effectiveness.
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Stalkers can choose to make their Hide even more superior by using TWO self powers. Yes you need tactics on yourself or from a team to see them. Hide however allows AS to effect ONE player. Hurricane effects not only the stormie that is using is, not only the people on his/her team, but also any hero not on the team with the stormie to protect them ALL. So it negates All melee attacks all behind Hurricane, not only the stormie. Overpowered. I never said Castle lied. If you said I said Statesman lied though, you'd be right on the money.. As for stun/web grenades, they are simply NOT effective like IR goggles. Would be nice to get to-hit figure on them from a dev about how suck they are.
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So much for your first attempted counterpoint.
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Touche!
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Second, you far too easily dismiss my point about "needing a team", but that was one of your own primary objections to Hurricane. You don't believe you should have to "rely on a team" to deal with Hurricane, but in your own post, you tell others that they have to rely on teams who have the Leadership Power Pool in order to deal with Stalkers' Assassin Strike. That's a double-standard, pure and simple. Add to this the fact that, again, _Castle_ has confirmed that it takes more than Tactics alone to perceive a Stalker who's using Hide and Stealth, and your point here is really out of gas anyway.
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I did not say GET ON A TEAM WITH SO AND SO TO TAKE OUT STALKERS. You don't need a team to take out a stalker. I said they could either have tactics themselves OR from a team. Or have IR Goggles. Needless to say, Tactics counters Superior Hide, team or no team. There is no "team" or nonteam power that can be cast on a melee toon that doesn't have a resist repell effect to walk past hurricane. MoG cannot be used in SC. And since I have a non regen Stalker there is nothing to use against Hurricane. Even in Warburg, my supposed uber clickie power(that crashes and make me vulnerable mind u) doesn't have resist repell powers.
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So much for your second attempted counterpoint.
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Touche 2.
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Face it. You're adhering to a double standard when it comes to Hurricane. You tell others they have to rely on teams to deal with Stalkers' Hide, but apparently what's good for the goose is not good for the gander, and you don't think Stalkers should have to rely on teams to deal with Hurricane. That's a double standard, pure and simple. You argue that Stalkers should not have to rely on "unreliable" temporary powers such as Web Grenade or Stun Grenade to deal with Hurricane, yet you tell others that they should rely on IR Goggles to deal with Stalkers' Hide, even when a Developer, _Castle_, has said IR Goggles are inadequate for the job. Again, apparently what's good for others is not good enough for Stalkers. This is yet another double standard.
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Misinterpreted words in my mouth u put. Hurricane is one power. Stealth+Hide = 2 powers use to enhance ONE ability. Hurricane = one power used that has no Power Pool or temp power to respec into that counters it. As I said before Stun/Webs grenades are inadequate. I have a strong feeling the devs would agree they're not so great to begin with(devs?). IR goggles work against Hide alone. Hide+Stealth needs Tactics. Tactics alone counters both. Where's the power by itself that truely works against Hurricane either a temp or powerpool accessible to all that I could respec and get that will work. Does Acrobatics do that? I need to double check that.
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And this doesn't even address the point that Assassin's Strike outright kills people in one shot; all Hurricane does is impede your ability to one-shot a Defender.
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It does much more then impedes a stalkers ability to one shot the hurricane using defender.
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once he does AS, it drops, he can be seen even without temp powers or buffs and killed very easily.
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Because this is a very stupid stalker that doesn't use Placate?
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once he does AS, it drops, he can be seen even without temp powers or buffs and killed very easily.
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Because this is a very stupid stalker that doesn't use Placate?
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Placate was nerfed in PvP recently. Placate now only works on the person it was cast. If that person is on a team, all the team members can now continue to see the stalker once Hide drops and placate is used. Only person that can't see the stalker or attack them now is just the Placated one.
The point is you are not putting a team together that is even remotely strategic and are doomed for many defeats. A blaster can do hit and run tactics on your team all day. You should have plenty of problems going strictly melee its your own fault. If gale was a bit more accurate you would be complaining about that as well. Put together a balanced team and you will have far less problems. Going all melee, all blasters or all anything you are asking for trouble. At least we agree on that there should be separate sets of game rules for powers in pvp and pve. If the devs had any common sense which I have yet to see evidence of this, they would implement a plan. Your right the game wasn't designed for pvp, it was designed to work best if you have a diverse and balanced team. Which again is why you are having problems in pvp with an all melee team. They would have to redesign the game from scratch to get pvp to work. In the long run it makes little sense to try to try to balance a superhero game too much. The whole genre is unbalanced.
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Um wow. Kid you need to start thinking in combat. First of all it isn't Hurricane that is unbalanced its the fact your team is unbalanced. 8 man melee team?? I suppose I should put together a 8 man team of healers and whine like a 5 year old to the devs. Why can't I kill these tanks? Wah poor me I can't think why that could be. I would be sooooooooo happy if they trashed pvp tomorrow. It continues to do nothing but destroy the game for the majority of us.
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All other ATs have at least a fair chance of at hitting one another(except say those bubbled) and effecting one another regardless of melee or range. To say that an 8 mean team of melee shouldn't have a fair chance at dealing with one toon running one power is not balance.
As for PvP ruinining our toons.. Yes, if it effects PvE too which it has, then nerfs aren't a good thing. I think nerfs do need to happen in PvP simply because our powers and our ATs weren't made to be equal in PvP because they were based on PvE. Depending on what powersets you choose for your AT, you served this or that role in PvE. How is a healer supposed to compete in PvP? They were meant to heal in PvE so for someone who chose all healing and buffing powers and either didn't choose or didn't have much to choose from with offensive dmg powers, how are they supposed to defeat people in PvP?? I've always thought there should be two seperate ways powers function in PvE and PvP. We're talking about nerfs that didn't happen for over a year into CoH until Arena came about and were told "we didn't nerf because of PvP" which is a bunch of crap. How do you balance in PvP? It needs to be done in a way that each AT has a chance at taking out another AT in someway shape or form, but how do they do this without screwing up what your AT is supposed to be to begin with? No easy solution. I don't think nerfing things should apply to PvE powers unless they are far overpowered for PvE. Things like herding a massive amount of mobs with Dreck was an exploit(I guess) and should have been lowered. Shrugs. I dunno. Depends if u ask a tank.. Or a regen scrapper. Or a stormie. Everyone needs to try and look at their own AT fairly in PvP and look beyond "I like my toon just the way he/she is!" and look at the dynamics of all the other ATs and situations. Sure I didn't like my Regen nerfed in PvP AND PvE, but I've learned to live with my new set of multiple click powers that all do the same thing... Heal. Self Empathy am I, I guess. But now they broke the powers and how they worked originally and homogenized them all. Sigh.
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I was noticing that pattern as well. I say assassin strike should be nerfed in half. It was a bad idea to begin with. Stealth should be nerfed and we should nerf some footballs as well. nerf nerf nerf everybody but me. Buncha nerf herders.
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KidQwik:
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You just proved my point why hurricane needed the nerf bat. All those things melee is supposed to do for ONE power? Why? Cause you should be able to use one power and that's it while everyone else should have to do x amount of things like waste inf on non working temp powers, form teams that have range or mez, change travel powers, etc, ALL to deal with ONE power???? Why it needed to be nerfed. Come to Justice, let my Stalker give u a hug.
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You do realize the irony of your position here, don't you?
Each and every one of these suggestions has been made by the Stalker community regarding Assassin's Strike.
If a person shouldn't "have to [. . .] waste inf on non working temp powers", then you'd agree with me that a person shouldn't have to "waste inf on non working temp powers" like IR Goggles "ALL to deal with ONE power????" ...right?
If a person shouldn't have to "form teams that have range or mez", then you'd agree with me that a person shouldn't have to "form teams that have" +Perception powers "ALL to deal with ONE power????" ...right?
If a person shouldn't have to "change travel powers", then you'd agree with me that people shouldn't have to "change travel powers "ALL to deal with ONE power????" ...right?
These were your words, by the way, not mine. Your logic certainly applies equally to Assassin's Strike as it does Hurricane.
So the next time Stalkers come out and tell people to buy IR Goggles to defend themselves from Assassin's Strike, you'll be right there on the forefront arguing against those people... right? The next time Stalkers come out and tell people that they "just need to team" to avoid Assassin's Strike one-shots, you'll be right there arguing as passionately against them as you're arguing here... right? The next time Stalkers tell people that they need to "just use their travel powers more unpredictably", I should expect to see you in the thread posting again and again about why that's wrong... right?
Given your own logic for nerfing Hurricane, imagine my shock when I found the following post (click link):
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I'd leave Stalker's Hide alone though. They are pretty weak without Hide and since you can buy IR goggles in a zone if your side is doing well along with all the leadership powers tossed on, this should be adequate. (emphasis mine)
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I'd sure hate to see you applying a double standard... That would just be wrong, wouldn't it?
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I was noticing that pattern as well. I say assassin strike should be nerfed in half. It was a bad idea to begin with. Stealth should be nerfed and we should nerf some footballs as well. nerf nerf nerf everybody but me. Buncha nerf herders.
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KidQwik:
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You just proved my point why hurricane needed the nerf bat. All those things melee is supposed to do for ONE power? Why? Cause you should be able to use one power and that's it while everyone else should have to do x amount of things like waste inf on non working temp powers, form teams that have range or mez, change travel powers, etc, ALL to deal with ONE power???? Why it needed to be nerfed. Come to Justice, let my Stalker give u a hug.
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You do realize the irony of your position here, don't you?
Each and every one of these suggestions has been made by the Stalker community regarding Assassin's Strike.
If a person shouldn't "have to [. . .] waste inf on non working temp powers", then you'd agree with me that a person shouldn't have to "waste inf on non working temp powers" like IR Goggles "ALL to deal with ONE power????" ...right?
If a person shouldn't have to "form teams that have range or mez", then you'd agree with me that a person shouldn't have to "form teams that have" +Perception powers "ALL to deal with ONE power????" ...right?
If a person shouldn't have to "change travel powers", then you'd agree with me that people shouldn't have to "change travel powers "ALL to deal with ONE power????" ...right?
These were your words, by the way, not mine. Your logic certainly applies equally to Assassin's Strike as it does Hurricane.
So the next time Stalkers come out and tell people to buy IR Goggles to defend themselves from Assassin's Strike, you'll be right there on the forefront arguing against those people... right? The next time Stalkers come out and tell people that they "just need to team" to avoid Assassin's Strike one-shots, you'll be right there arguing as passionately against them as you're arguing here... right? The next time Stalkers tell people that they need to "just use their travel powers more unpredictably", I should expect to see you in the thread posting again and again about why that's wrong... right?
Given your own logic for nerfing Hurricane, imagine my shock when I found the following post (click link):
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I'd leave Stalker's Hide alone though. They are pretty weak without Hide and since you can buy IR goggles in a zone if your side is doing well along with all the leadership powers tossed on, this should be adequate. (emphasis mine)
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I'd sure hate to see you applying a double standard... That would just be wrong, wouldn't it?
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I was noticing that pattern as well. I say assassin strike should be nerfed in half. It was a bad idea to begin with. Stealth should be nerfed and we should nerf some footballs as well. nerf nerf nerf everybody but me. Buncha nerf herders.
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KidQwik:
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You just proved my point why hurricane needed the nerf bat. All those things melee is supposed to do for ONE power? Why? Cause you should be able to use one power and that's it while everyone else should have to do x amount of things like waste inf on non working temp powers, form teams that have range or mez, change travel powers, etc, ALL to deal with ONE power???? Why it needed to be nerfed. Come to Justice, let my Stalker give u a hug.
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You do realize the irony of your position here, don't you?
Each and every one of these suggestions has been made by the Stalker community regarding Assassin's Strike.
If a person shouldn't "have to [. . .] waste inf on non working temp powers", then you'd agree with me that a person shouldn't have to "waste inf on non working temp powers" like IR Goggles "ALL to deal with ONE power????" ...right?
If a person shouldn't have to "form teams that have range or mez", then you'd agree with me that a person shouldn't have to "form teams that have" +Perception powers "ALL to deal with ONE power????" ...right?
If a person shouldn't have to "change travel powers", then you'd agree with me that people shouldn't have to "change travel powers "ALL to deal with ONE power????" ...right?
These were your words, by the way, not mine. Your logic certainly applies equally to Assassin's Strike as it does Hurricane.
So the next time Stalkers come out and tell people to buy IR Goggles to defend themselves from Assassin's Strike, you'll be right there on the forefront arguing against those people... right? The next time Stalkers come out and tell people that they "just need to team" to avoid Assassin's Strike one-shots, you'll be right there arguing as passionately against them as you're arguing here... right? The next time Stalkers tell people that they need to "just use their travel powers more unpredictably", I should expect to see you in the thread posting again and again about why that's wrong... right?
Given your own logic for nerfing Hurricane, imagine my shock when I found the following post (click link):
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I'd leave Stalker's Hide alone though. They are pretty weak without Hide and since you can buy IR goggles in a zone if your side is doing well along with all the leadership powers tossed on, this should be adequate. (emphasis mine)
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I'd sure hate to see you applying a double standard... That would just be wrong, wouldn't it?
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You are correct about invulnerability and also the rock armor set have resistance to knockback which work well against hurricanes. I am sure there are a few others as well but not sure which.
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If a I'm not applying a double standard. As I said above a few times, there is an effective temp power against Hide. If I had tactics or someone on the team had tactics, I could see them too. That power would effect the whole team. There isn't a power someone can cast on a melee or whole team to simply walk right up to a stormy using hurricane and hit them, is there??? But there are two powers that can effectively see a stalker that you can purchase or have cast on you and it works on ranged or melee toons. Is there an anti-hurricane power that can be applied to toons?? I don't even think Vengeance does that.
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First of all you are applying a double standard. You said that you didnt think it was right that everyone has to change tactics just to accomadate one power, and that the one power can so drastically turn the tide of battle. A stalker can do that. Teams DO adjust their tactics to deal with them and a stalker with as CAN drastically alter the tide of battle.
Secondly there are powers that melee have that ignore hurricannes repel and -acc. I believe rage from invul. does this. I remember when the arenas first came out a invul/mace tank friend of mine walked right through hurricanne like it wasnt even there and stunned me. i could be wrong, but iirc mog also negates the repel. Any power that gives a large bonus to tohit will negate the -tohit on hurricanne. SO there are inherent options to melee.
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Yes there are powers that a melee type can walk right up to a storm defender with hurricane on and hit them. I forget the specific names but off hand both Invulnerability and the Stone armor set both have a power that negates knockback. I am sure there are others but I don't know off hand what they might be.
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If a person shouldn't "have to [. . .] waste inf on non working temp powers", then you'd agree with me that a person shouldn't have to "waste inf on non working temp powers" like IR Goggles "ALL to deal with ONE power????" ...right?
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IR Goggles WORK. I have used them on my Scrapper, Blaster, and Peacebringer in SC and I have seen Stalkers without perception buffs applied to me by others.. In regards to Web and Stun grenades which have a very low ACC on them, they have never worked on any Stormie unbuffed, never mind any other AT I've used them on just to get rid of them because all they seem to do is blow up and miss. The "grenades" in PvP suck, plain and simple. IR Toggles work though. If they increase the ACC on grenades to hit all the time and Stun and knock off Hurricane then you can keep Hurricane unnerfed because there will be an effective temp power to use against hurricane like their is an effective temp power to use against stalkers.
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If a person shouldn't have to "form teams that have range or mez", then you'd agree with me that a person shouldn't have to "form teams that have" +Perception powers "ALL to deal with ONE power????" ...right?
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See above post about effective single temp power to use against Stalkers, no team needed.
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If a person shouldn't have to "change travel powers", then you'd agree with me that people shouldn't have to "change travel powers "ALL to deal with ONE power????" ...right?
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Totally agree here. No one should have to change a travel power to deal with a single power. There is a distinct difference in jumping all around mindlessly to avoid a stalker's AS than there is to jump and try to place a precision placed punch on the head to knock off hurricane which most likely won't happen because you'll be repelled or ACC debuffed so much as to not hit anyway.. Jumping around to avoid stalkers mean a stalker will have to work to AS or even hit you as well.
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These were your words, by the way, not mine. Your logic certainly applies equally to Assassin's Strike as it does Hurricane.
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See above comment.
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So the next time Stalkers come out and tell people to buy IR Goggles to defend themselves from Assassin's Strike, you'll be right there on the forefront arguing against those people... right? The next time Stalkers come out and tell people that they "just need to team" to avoid Assassin's Strike one-shots, you'll be right there arguing as passionately against them as you're arguing here... right? The next time Stalkers tell people that they need to "just use their travel powers more unpredictably", I should expect to see you in the thread posting again and again about why that's wrong... right?
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Wrong. I never would say that because there is an effective temp power to purchase against stalkers. It's the first thing I buy in SC if the temp power is available. If it's not, I constantly jump around, fly, SS, or SJ(all depends on what toon I'm on) or do Dragon's Tail on my scrapper all the time to try to hit them if I can't see them and they may be around me.
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Given your own logic for nerfing Hurricane, imagine my shock when I found the following post (click link):
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I'd leave Stalker's Hide alone though. They are pretty weak without Hide and since you can buy IR goggles in a zone if your side is doing well along with all the leadership powers tossed on, this should be adequate. (emphasis mine)
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I'd sure hate to see you applying a double standard... That would just be wrong, wouldn't it?
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I'm not applying a double standard. As I said above a few times, there is an effective temp power against Hide. If I had tactics or someone on the team had tactics, I could see them too. That power would effect the whole team. There isn't a power someone can cast on a melee or whole team to simply walk right up to a stormy using hurricane and hit them, is there??? But there are two powers that can effectively see a stalker that you can purchase or have cast on you and it works on ranged or melee toons. Is there an anti-hurricane power that can be applied to toons?? I don't even think Vengeance does that.
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Hurricane effects not only the stormie that is using is, not only the people on his/her team, but also any hero not on the team with the stormie to protect them ALL. So it negates All melee attacks all behind Hurricane, not only the stormie. Overpowered.
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No.
I play a Storm Defender. It is not overpowered. Not in PVP, not in PVE. Period. Not any single power... nothing about it. Not a thing. Period.
A Storm Defender had one thing that was a major contribution. Finally. One thing that actually had people requesting them for teams. Finally.
And then it's taken away. Why? No good reason that I can see.
You don't like being countered by a particular power set? Gee, that's too bad. Try playing a Storm Defender, which is countered by the vast majority of sets in the game. No status protection, very limited defenses, and not too much in the damage department either, when compared to... well, to just about everything else, save possibly other Defenders.
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You don't need a team to take out a stalker.
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I do. I need a team to do anything in open PVP. Moreover, I need a team with someone who can give me status protection, or else it's a pointless endeavor.
So, if Hurricane is such a game breaker, how could that possibly be?
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It does much more then impedes a stalkers ability to one shot the hurricane using defender.
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Yes, it might actually make that Stalker *gasp* vulnerable for a minute. I'm sure that's such a pain.
Sorry to be so snarky, but I really can't take anyone complaining about Hurricane all that seriously, and I'm currently very irate that the devs apparently did.
In open PVP, the Storm set was no more threatening than several others. That's how it actually plays out. Hurricane countered melee, yes. That was it's function, what it was supposed to do. It did it effectively enough that it had to be shut down. Well, that's the way it should be. If you don't have to work to shut down or completely override a defense, what's the point of the defense?
There isn't one.
Hope you enjoy PVP with your Stalker. I can no longer participate with my Defender.
Storm did not need a nerf. Period.
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once he does AS, it drops, he can be seen even without temp powers or buffs and killed very easily.
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Because this is a very stupid stalker that doesn't use Placate?
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Placate was nerfed in PvP recently. Placate now only works on the person it was cast. If that person is on a team, all the team members can now continue to see the stalker once Hide drops and placate is used. Only person that can't see the stalker or attack them now is just the Placated one.
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honestly that sounds more like a fix to me. After all, your not placating the whole team, your placating an individual.
The fact is this, PVP in this game is designed to be team centered. Therefore no matter what the opposition brings, you are able to counter it with a teammate with the required abilities. Hurricanne is easily countered. Get a dominator or multiple corruptors with holds, or even a high enough invulnerable brute and you will easily defeat the storm.
As for the negatives, hurricanne draws alot of aggro. Not just from npc, but from players as well. A hurricanne is basically a big kick me sign for a class that is already the easiest to kill. You say coming out of stealth when you as is its counter? HA! like that matters that much. Most players just sj tp or ss away the instant as finishes anyway.
The only reason that hurricanne is a challenge for you is that you refuse to find ways around it. THis includes finding others with abilitys that you lack. After all, the stormie has to rely on others that have abilities that they lack to pvp. After all they need mez protection, healing, and damage output.
Jay Doherty: Yes, there was this one night that I was ready to go home but had to drop the browns off at the super bowl before I left for home. While on the throne it hit me. I stayed for a few more hours and that why we have the pain pads in the game.
Wow. People are still arguing about this.
Look. You can't compare the difficulty to overcome a defensive power to the difficulty to defend against an offensive power.
Hurricane is a defensive power. The fact that my stormie is running it does not allow me to defeat anyone. It does not earn my any kills. I *can't* defeat you with it. I can only make it harder for you to defeat me. The defensive power, in order to be overpowering must protect me from *everything* in the zone that might want to defeat me. And guess what? Hurricane falls far short.
AS is an offensive power. It does not have to be effective against everyone in the zone. It only needs to be effective against the one target you've chosen to attack. Period. If it allows you to walk up and defeat one opponent without being spotted, then it has benefited you greatly.
I think it's absolutely ridiculous to try to compare a defensive power to an offensive one. I also think that a lot of stalkers who are whining about this simply don't understand the death rate that storm defenders and controller recieve when in a PvP zone. A hurricane makes you the *first* target of every attacking group. Sure. We've protected outselves from a stalker, but every single other enemy will make sure to take us out first. Our life expectancy is pretty darn short. In contrast, the typical stalker *only* dies if he gets really unlucky. He has to flub an attack and flub his escape, or stumble across someone with the exact right set of powers to spot him, track him without him spotting them, and take him out. That's not going to happen that often...
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Wow. People are still arguing about this.
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I just got my first real taste of it today.
A melee character marched right up to me and took me down with one hit. I had little damage, and then... floored. Just like that.
I don't see how that 'balances' anything. I really don't. I have no idea what the developers are trying to do. This particular change flummoxed me so much, I PMed a dev about it. I've never done that.
I'd really, really like to know how this balances anything, how watering down one of my only defenses, apparently to the point of ineffectiveness, somehow makes the game more fair.
When, exactly, am I going to be able to two-shot any other AT?
When do I get my mez protection, and significant defenses/resistances/self-heals on par with other power sets?
Any Stormy knows the primary weakness of Hurricane: it doesn't help you against ranged attacks. That's what balanced it. It was fine the way it was.
Now it is decidedly unfine. Now it doesn't do what it's supposed to do, but it still has the weaknesses it had. Weakness that still apply in PVP as well, despite any ridiculous claims of how uBeR Hurricane is. Please.
Debuffs... debuff you. That's what they do. If you are debuffed, and you can still hit reliably, the debuff is no longer of any worth.
I'm quickly shifting to the 'remove Defenders from the game' camp. Considering I play Defenders more than any other AT, that's... pretty sad.
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*If* they change it back in PvE to what it was, it will be a hopeful sign for the game, cuz it will mean that they are least listening to us PvE players. But they haven't done it yet.
FivefifteenA