Massive Hurricane nerf
By
aqshy2004,
Posted on: 2006-04-11 24:48 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I'm not sure I understand why PvP changes affect (effect?) PvE at all. After all, there are plenty of powers in PvP that don't apply to PvE...otherwise, an enemy Brawl could knock all your toggles off. And boy, would Tankers and Scrappers raise hell about that, but anyway.
I don't get it. Are we positive this is having any effect on PvE at all? And if it is, then bloody hell, WHY? I can understand the changes for PvP (though I don't give a rat's patootie about it), but I see zero reason for it to bleed into PvE. Please, don't give me any horseshit about it being "too powerful" for PvE. Hell, by the time a Stormer levels to where they can get it, they're gagging for most ANYTHING, so they deserve a good power.
If it JUST affects PvP, I couldn't care less. Otherwise, my Fire/Storm is nearly level 20, damnit.
Maybe it's just easier to change a power and just treat it the same in both PvP and PvE. I agree, though, that is should not be changed in PvE. It's liek a signature power for stormies!
Ouch... according to Iakona's info, the potential time between aggroing an enemy and actually having the enemy be debuffed has increased by up to three quarters of a second.
That's going to hurt. That's going to hurt a lot.
Half a second can easily mean death if you're trying to keep a team alive. It won't be as bad for mature stormers - by the time you can combine Freezing Rain, Snow Storm, and Hurricane correctly, the debuff and repel aren't your primary damage mitigation tools - but newer ones will be finding themselves faced with a pretty big problem as half their damage mitigation tools are becoming less effective. Least it'll be less expensive, or will be until the cost gets quadrupled to be brought in line with Force Bubble.
I really find it funny how this change has progressed, though. A plainly PvP change... that will have a significant negative effect on PvErs (despite there being an alternative - _Castle_ already commented on Hurricane having different values for Knockback in PvP than in PvE)...
But, hey, Defender are the most balanced Archetype, if by quantity rather than quality, and it's not like we're supposed to be good at debuffing.
When I7 changes go live, the loss in ToHit effectiveness will be comparatively small.
And, frankly, in PvE, which is all a really care about, less repel means that I won't have to work as hard to keep mobs in the debuff zone. Repel was great in some ways; in others, it was a huge pain in the [censored]. And, if it's really being cut to 25% endurance cost (I'll have to check that to make sure!) then I'll trade all the Repel in the world to keep my blue bar happy.
So, no, I don't consider the Hurricane changes to be a huge nerf. In fact, I would say I'll probably get more utility out of it in its new state; it's less powerful in the situations for which it was previously used, maybe, but it's also less situational.
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...if only PvP had never been introduced...
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QFT
Sign It : http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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But, hey, Defender are the most balanced Archetype, if by quantity rather than quality, and it's not like we're supposed to be good at debuffing.
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Debuffing is so 2005..
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When I7 changes go live, the loss in ToHit effectiveness will be comparatively small.
And, frankly, in PvE, which is all a really care about, less repel means that I won't have to work as hard to keep mobs in the debuff zone. Repel was great in some ways; in others, it was a huge pain in the [censored]. And, if it's really being cut to 25% endurance cost (I'll have to check that to make sure!) then I'll trade all the Repel in the world to keep my blue bar happy.
So, no, I don't consider the Hurricane changes to be a huge nerf. In fact, I would say I'll probably get more utility out of it in its new state; it's less powerful in the situations for which it was previously used, maybe, but it's also less situational.
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I use it on a Fire/Storm too, so I know what you mean. But I was trying to assess the changes to the power, not to my play style.
For me, Hurricane is now sort of a PBAoE Darkest Night with some drawbacks from the Repel/KB. It's not the same power it was before. Maybe I should have said "Massive nerf to typical Hurricane uses", as most of the common uses of Hurricane are now significantly less effective. Only the DeBuffing strategies used with it work as well. The Repel/KB is now just a relatively minor side effect.
Kosmos
Global: @Calorie
MA Arcs in 4-star purgatory: Four in a Row (#2198) - Hostile Takeover (#69714) - Red Harvest (#268305)
Anyone who didn't see this coming must have been blind or not playing the same game. Dont try to point another finger at PvP about why this and that got nerfed, just adjust like EVERYONE else has in the past. I've played with plenty of Stormies in PvE and hurricane has never been a deciding factor on keeping the team alive, if anything it was annoying, and rarely used on teams.
If you really used it for PvE, then please ignore my post...its not directed at you, but it is directed at all the hurricane gods of PvP complaining under the curtain of how great the power was in PvE when a lot of us know that's not the case.
EDIT: Put PvP where i meant PvE
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Ouch... according to Iakona's info, the potential time between aggroing an enemy and actually having the enemy be debuffed has increased by up to three quarters of a second.
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I'm not sure about this, I didn't notice the first shot hitting me any more often than I would have expected. But then I wasn't charging in. Also, I tdon't think the DeBuff aggroes, so the aggro radius of Hurricane has been reduced with the Repel radius, so that they are well within the DeBuff before aggroed.
Kosmos
Global: @Calorie
MA Arcs in 4-star purgatory: Four in a Row (#2198) - Hostile Takeover (#69714) - Red Harvest (#268305)
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...if only PvP had never been introduced...
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then we could all be standing around Atlas having Costume contests....
Ohhh Goodie!
My main is a Storm. I love Storm. It makes me happy in my happy places. I'm also not only not going to complain about this nerf, but I'm going to take it and run gleefully.
Why? Simple.
1) With the I7 changes, the drop in the to-hit debuff really isn't going to be significant.
2) I don't *want* the enemy repelled out of the area of my debuff effects.
3) Any time I'm in a situation where I really want to push something away from me, the knockback does just fine - if not from Hurricane, then from the bajillion other effects I have that cause it.
4) This reduction in power will help weed out the weak ones and force the people who relied on it as a crutch to use the rest of their tools in Storm's powerful and wonderful toolkit instead of becoming dependent on a single power.
5) Now I can stop listening to everybody and their mother who PvPs whine like a small child about how much they hate Hurricane and how much they're looking forward to seeing it nerfed because they're too poor of players to figure out ways to beat it. (And there are ways. Many, many ways.)
6) The power is still viable, still effective, and still worthy of being called Storm Summoning's signature power. This isn't the nerfing Regen got. This isn't the massive drop in power tankers have taken from the many, many nerfs they've been on the recieving end of. This isn't even the slightly-worse-than-a-papercut dropoff a lot of blasters took this same patch with the loss of Whirlwind negating animation times. I *LIKE* this nerf because we could have gotten a heck of a lot worse, and I'm very thankful that, while I don't love the change and think there are better ways it could have been handled, things could have been much, much worse.
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1) With the I7 changes, the drop in the to-hit debuff really isn't going to be significant.
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The drop will be quite significant against +0 and +1 enemies, actually (averaging around a 7% increase in enemy Final Accuracy, even level bosses will gain around 13%). The drop will become minor against +2 enemies, and against enemies +3 and above you'll see a very minor increase (averaging around a 2% drop in enemy Final Accuracy).
The 1 second tic will be really annoying to my storm buddies. But thank goodness my friend Gravimetric Storm is Gravity/Storm. He has a ton of positioning tools. With Wormhole, Gale and Hurricane in order of usefulness after this NERF.
And nerf it is for hurricane. It took it in the shorts for PVP concerns. And whatever the retcon of the day is, cryptic/ncsoft stated they would make it a priority to avoid that.
Since server tics are syncronized on the server side it won't matter if you have 4 hurricanes running either. What a crock.
Well, I will continue to play and move on but this isn't a nice thing to do to storm summoning. It isn't an uber set and I never had trouble taking Storm defender/controllers down in PvP. Jousting with KO blow worked wonders, especially if I fought his teams scrapper for a bit to build fury.
-Teklord
You know, I'm glad you're enjoying the, ah, reduction, or at least thinking positively about it. But this...:
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I *LIKE* this nerf because we could have gotten a heck of a lot worse, and I'm very thankful that, while I don't love the change and think there are better ways it could have been handled, things could have been much, much worse.
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...is about as damning a faint praise as I can imagine. Either I must
a) stand in awe of your pathetic whipped-dog mentality, that you mewl about how far up the [censored] we COULD have taken it, or
b) stand in awe of your diabolically devious wielding of sarcasm.
Either way, I stand in awe. I really am glad you're enjoying the change though....
The difference between PvP players and PvE players is that
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otherwise, an enemy Brawl could knock all your toggles off.
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PvP players would actually be OK with this change.
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The difference between PvP players and PvE players is that
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otherwise, an enemy Brawl could knock all your toggles off.
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PvP players would actually be OK with this change.
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No they wouldn't and you know it. They would whine non-stop like they do about everything else. Even though it had no bearing on their pvp game.
I'm sitting here scratching my head about what's causing this huge uproar over this change...It still has one of the highest, if not THE highest, to-hit debuffs in the game; it has the only (that I can recall) range debuff in the game. Now the enemies stay in the debuff radius longer, since they're knocked back slightly less. And to top it all off, the endurance cost you spend for all these benefits is now 17% lower than Hover...
Perhaps I'm just not pessimistic enough, but I really fail to see where all the DOOOOOOM-speak is coming from.
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...if only PvP had never been introduced...
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QFT
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QFQFT
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a) stand in awe of your pathetic whipped-dog mentality, that you mewl about how far up the [censored] we COULD have taken it
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A beaten dog knows to fear the hand.
~Gabriel
My take on the tohit debuff change...
Defenders-AIM and tactics biggest buff
Tankers-FA
Scrap-FA
Blast-AIM
Controllers- lowest attainable accuracy of any hero
Brute-leadership? Do they get a pet to enh accuracy
Corruptor-AIM
Dominator-screwed except thorns
Stalker-up ships creek
MM-more attacks mean more chances of hits but still f@#$ed
Tanker slotted 2 acc sos in attacks-meets storm defender with ubercane -tanker misses so he puts on focc acc and still misses but finally hits
Brute meets stormy- brute gets debuffed and is screwed if they dont have insights
Accuracy debuffs already give like lvl heros problems (RI, HURR, Darkest Night) and they have the highest attainable accuracy. Just imagine what those same debuffs would do to villians and their non-accuracy enhancing Patron Powers.
I am PL in RL.
Freedom- Magnet Man, Hott Sauce, Stand-Up Comic
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a) stand in awe of your pathetic whipped-dog mentality, that you mewl about how far up the [censored] we COULD have taken it
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A beaten dog knows to fear the hand.
~Gabriel
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But most whipped dogs will turn on the hand that feeds it. Its fear is so great that any sign of weakness or threat to food can make it turn on you. Abused Dogs are unpredictable.
-Teklord
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a) stand in awe of your pathetic whipped-dog mentality, that you mewl about how far up the [censored] we COULD have taken it
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A beaten dog knows to fear the hand.
~Gabriel
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Darwin was right. Those who do not adapt will die...
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3 simple things that can disable a stormie
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I think there are more ways then just 3, but that didnt matter to the devs
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It lasts WAY TOO LONG after you've got away from the radius
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I havent tested hurricane today, but I did use ri and I could tell a pretty substantial difference in the amount of damage I was taking. I know a lot of people are saying it will balance out in PvE...but I could care less. PvE can be figured out. The ai is predictable.
PvP is where my beef is. This is going to get me pwned a lot more often.
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I'm sitting here scratching my head about what's causing this huge uproar over this change...It still has one of the highest, if not THE highest, to-hit debuffs in the game; it has the only (that I can recall) range debuff in the game. Now the enemies stay in the debuff radius longer, since they're knocked back slightly less. And to top it all off, the endurance cost you spend for all these benefits is now 17% lower than Hover...
Perhaps I'm just not pessimistic enough, but I really fail to see where all the DOOOOOOM-speak is coming from.
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There is no DOOOOM-speak. It's merely an assessment that this power is far less effective in PvE today than it was yesterday. If all you used it for was debuffing, then you won't notice much difference beyond the 20% enhancement nerf. If you actually used the Repel then the value of that component is largely gone.
I assume you've picked up the END use by <insert unmentionable process here> and those numbers are accurate. That is a big bonus that I didn't notice while playing and so left out of the assessment.
Basically the argument seems to be...
1 -20% ToHit DeBuff is merely temporary.
2 The Repel really wasn't worth much anyway.
3 Repel lessened the DeBuff value.
4 The END cost of Hurricane was a major problem.
5 The -Rng DeBuff has significant PvE value.
(1) This is not precisely true, the reduction when fighting lower con foes such a solo Defender is apt to face is not going to be rolled back by I7. Because of mez the 20% reduction in the ToHit DeBuff is going to have far more than a proportional effect on your ability to survive while soloing.
(2) The Repel effect could be worth more than the -ACC if used well. After all, for my Fire/Storm not much is shooting back anyway so I don't care if their accuracy and range are debuffed, I just want to make sure they stay grouped and anybody I missed gets herded up close for the next Flashfire/Cinders/Thunderclap shot. And preferably close enough that Tornado and Lightning Storm are hitting more than one target at a time.
(3) The Repel never cancelled the DeBuff unless you moved away from the repelled foe. And even then the debuff effect remained for a substantial time. The KB occasionally would throw someone outside the debuff. The probabilty of that happening is at least as high as before. The reduced Repel radius does make it easier to use Thunderclap and Cinders but, for me at least, does nothing to help keep the debuff on foes. In fact, I got knocked back myself several times by foes closing to melee range and got stunned by a Crey "Pom-Pom" attack.
(4) It was a minor problem for me. The reduction in END cost will allow me to move a slot off Hurricane when I7 hits. Certainly can't complain about that.
(5) The -Rng is only useful in PvE if you are herding by debuffing and then moving out of the foes' now reduced range. Very useful if the foes are low rank, you have few purples, or are otherwise feeling up to collecting a bunch of aggro. You can also use Snow Storm to aid kiting with this strategy, but once the -Rng wears off you'd have to duck back into range to renew the debuff. Very few PvE foes have short ranged attacks other than melee. If mobs used powers such as Power Burst, Cosmic Burst or Blaze it would have been worth a lot more. But now they'd have no trouble getting into range for even those point blank attacks. I think a lot of people are confusing their own troubles in dealing with Hurricane's -Rng and what it actually does for you. Maybe others have found a way to use it better than I have in PvE.
Kosmos
Global: @Calorie
MA Arcs in 4-star purgatory: Four in a Row (#2198) - Hostile Takeover (#69714) - Red Harvest (#268305)
Maybe hurricane was overpowered in PvP...
Being able to keep multiple melee'ers at bay seems a bit excessive, conisdering it's 1 power. And hoy many melee ATs have access to a ranged status effect?
If they just reduced the debuff duration and the pulse rate of the repel, it wouldn't be so bad...