Massive Hurricane nerf
By
aqshy2004,
Posted on: 2006-04-11 24:48 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Despite what some have read into the patch notes (which mention PvP, but do not specifically assert PvP only), the nerf to Hurricane affects PvE.
The Repel effect's tick rate has been reduced by half or more, the Repel effect itself seems weaker (mobs are pushed away more slowly, though that may be a consequence of the reduced tick rate) and even the radius of effect seems considerably shorter.
Mobs in PvE are now able to run right up to me and hit me, sometimes getting in two attacks before being repelled. They were also able to melee attack someone standing right next to me without being repelled at all. Making the Repel portion a personal defense only, not a team defense.
The reduced tick rate also makes using Hurricane to position foes take quite a bit longer. Enough so that I don't think it's worth the effort any more.
So, Hurricane probably lost more than half of its PvE effectiveness with this latest patch.
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Wow...it sounds like it was lowered down to the effectiveness of Repel and that bubble shield.
Hurricane's tick rate was changed from every 0.25 seconds to every 1.0 seconds. The endurance cost per tick remains the same (0.1625 end/tick), meaning the new endurance/second cost is 1/4 of the old value. The radius is still the same (25 feet), and there is no limit on the maximum number of targets it can hit at once. There is a severe accuracy and range debuff for each affected target.
For comparison: Repel, 3rd power from the Kinetics powerset, ticks every 0.5 seconds with an end cost of 0.39 per tick (0.78 per second) plus an additional cost per target affected. The radius is only 7 feet, and there is no debuff effect.
Force Bubble, 9th power from the Force Field powerset, ticks every 0.25 seconds, costing 0.1716 endurance per tick (0.6864/sec, Defender and Controller versions only; Mastermind version is 25% higher end cost). The radius is 50 feet, and there is no debuff.
Given this information, I'd say Hurricane still easily comes out on top.
Well, at least there wasn't a massive hyperbole nerf...
Bear in mind that you are also laboring under the toHit debuff enhancement schedule change. While there is a complex interaction between this change and another coming in I7, making it a nerf against weak foes and a buff against strong ones, currently it is just a plain nerf. You are debuffing foes toHit about 81% of what you were previously, while their toHit calcualtion is unchanged.
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Shadowslip: 50 DDC
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Despite what some have read into the patch notes (which mention PvP, but do not specifically assert PvP only), the nerf to Hurricane affects PvE.
The Repel effect's tick rate has been reduced by half or more, the Repel effect itself seems weaker (mobs are pushed away more slowly, though that may be a consequence of the reduced tick rate) and even the radius of effect seems considerably shorter.
Mobs in PvE are now able to run right up to me and hit me, sometimes getting in two attacks before being repelled. They were also able to melee attack someone standing right next to me without being repelled at all. Making the Repel portion a personal defense only, not a team defense.
The reduced tick rate also makes using Hurricane to position foes take quite a bit longer. Enough so that I don't think it's worth the effort any more.
So, Hurricane probably lost more than half of its PvE effectiveness with this latest patch.
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Wow...it sounds like it was lowered down to the effectiveness of Repel and that bubble shield.
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Repulsion Field. Despite their names those two powers do Knockback, not Repel. So most melee fighters in PvP completely resist their effects, as do many PvE opponents. The only other Repel powers I can think of are Telekinesis and Force Bubble.
Hurricane is now a DeBuff with Repel/KB components that are of minimal net value. And, of course, the DeBuff took a big hit in this patch too. Stormies, lacking mez protection and a self heal, just got a LOT squishier. Especially since, unlike the equally squishy Empaths, Storm Summoners draw a large amount of aggro.
I'll have to get someone in the Arena to see if the radius of the DeBuff was reduced too.
Kosmos
Global: @Calorie
MA Arcs in 4-star purgatory: Four in a Row (#2198) - Hostile Takeover (#69714) - Red Harvest (#268305)
DOOOOOOOOM!!!!!!
Hurricane was supposed to provide a melee free zone for squishies.
Herdicaning and mob positioning used to be Storm's claim for fame.
There goes that...
Power is totally worthless now. It has a -range, debufff, repel, and Knockback for a pretty low end cost.
Doom on you!
*Sigh*
Once again the PvPers who refused to think through problems on the battlefield have gone and ruined things for everyone, including those who don't PvP at all or very often. The fact is, good PvPers know how to disable huricane fairly easily. All you have to remember are a few things:
1) Storm Defenders lack mez protection in their powerset. Unless they have another power that grants some or are teamed with people who can give them mez resistance, it can be very easy to hold, stun, sleep, whatever a storm defender.
2) Use travel powers to your advantage. If you have teleport, you can teleport right next to the defender and get off a mez attack before huricane takes effect. Or use superspeed's inertia to get in close.
3) Que your attack before engaging the storm defender. Remember, attacks will remained active ready to go off as soon as you get in range. So you can have a travel power ready, que the attack, get in close, and the mez attack or regular attack will go off on its own, even if you get repelled while it happens. The target only needs to be in range when the attack goes off.
So, there you have it, 3 simple things that can disable a stormie. Part of the challenge of PvP (and the fun if you ask me) is thinking through the challenges presented. It is a common theme that the best PvPers will do this, and that is why they are so strong. Not to say storm summoning's huricane did not need some nerf. The fact is forcing someone against a corner where they can do nothing (not even pop a break free) was a bit extreme and needed to be dealt with, but I think the developers are catering too much to people who just want a win button in PvP.
And why can't the effects of huricane be different in PvP and PvE. If you ask me, I haven't noticed storm being vastly overpowered in the PvE game. People must still think through their actions and I still risk death if I take on more than my powers can handle.
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Hurricane's tick rate was changed from every 0.25 seconds to every 1.0 seconds. The endurance cost per tick remains the same (0.1625 end/tick), meaning the new endurance/second cost is 1/4 of the old value.
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The radius is still the same (25 feet), and there is no limit on the maximum number of targets it can hit at once.
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That 25 feet must be for the DeBuffs only. It certainly was never 25 feet for the Repel. The Repel radius appears to be reduced to me. I never had someone standing next to me remain locked in melee before, the Repel always pushed the foes away. Now it doesn't. I don't think that has anything to do with the tick rate.
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There is a severe accuracy and range debuff for each affected target.
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I forgot about the -Range. Didn't notice anything having trouble using ranged attacks against me however. Nothing that prefered the use of ranged attacks had to close in to attack. Since the -Range only works on stuff within 25 ft, PvE mobs tend to have good range and the -Range may well be reduced by the combat modifier for level difference that isn't surprising.
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For comparison: Repel, 3rd power from the Kinetics powerset, ticks every 0.5 seconds with an end cost of 0.39 per tick (0.78 per second) plus an additional cost per target affected. The radius is only 7 feet, and there is no debuff effect.
Force Bubble, 9th power from the Force Field powerset, ticks every 0.25 seconds, costing 0.1716 endurance per tick (0.6864/sec, Defender and Controller versions only; Mastermind version is 25% higher end cost). The radius is 50 feet, and there is no debuff.
Given this information, I'd say Hurricane still easily comes out on top.
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It is certainly better than Repulsion Field or Repel. The only way to get good value out of those is to run Repel Bowling patterns to keep a large number of mobs on their rears.
Whether Hurricane is better than Force Bubble or not is debateable. It certainly puts Force Bubble in a class by itself now. Whether that's a good class to be in or not is the debateable part. Personally, I'm no fan of Force Bubble in PvE. So I'd agree that Hurricane is better.
My post's point is the reduction in effectiveness in PvE, not how good the power is. When complaints about nerfing Hurricane for PvE were voiced in the Training Room forums, most reponses were along the lines of "Learn to read - it's for PvP only". Well, it isn't. And it isn't a small nerf, they cut the Repel effect by at least 75% and the ToHit DeBuff by 20% (I7 should just about cancel out that nerf for PvE). Is that a major nerf, or isn't it?
Kosmos
Global: @Calorie
MA Arcs in 4-star purgatory: Four in a Row (#2198) - Hostile Takeover (#69714) - Red Harvest (#268305)
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*Sigh*
Once again the PvPers who refused to think through problems on the battlefield have gone and ruined things for everyone, including those who don't PvP at all or very often. The fact is, good PvPers know how to disable huricane fairly easily. All you have to remember are a few things:
1) Storm Defenders lack mez protection in their powerset. Unless they have another power that grants some or are teamed with people who can give them mez resistance, it can be very easy to hold, stun, sleep, whatever a storm defender.
2) Use travel powers to your advantage. If you have teleport, you can teleport right next to the defender and get off a mez attack before huricane takes effect. Or use superspeed's inertia to get in close.
3) Que your attack before engaging the storm defender. Remember, attacks will remained active ready to go off as soon as you get in range. So you can have a travel power ready, que the attack, get in close, and the mez attack or regular attack will go off on its own, even if you get repelled while it happens. The target only needs to be in range when the attack goes off.
So, there you have it, 3 simple things that can disable a stormie. Part of the challenge of PvP (and the fun if you ask me) is thinking through the challenges presented. It is a common theme that the best PvPers will do this, and that is why they are so strong. Not to say storm summoning's huricane did not need some nerf. The fact is forcing someone against a corner where they can do nothing (not even pop a break free) was a bit extreme and needed to be dealt with, but I think the developers are catering too much to people who just want a win button in PvP.
And why can't the effects of huricane be different in PvP and PvE. If you ask me, I haven't noticed storm being vastly overpowered in the PvE game. People must still think through their actions and I still risk death if I take on more than my powers can handle.
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All 3 of your suggestions can be avoided by the Stormy if he/she has Clear Mind or some other mez protection. Also even if you do have your melle attack qued you still be debuffed after hitting the Stormie--meaning that your Acc and Range will be floored.
Overall I do think Hurricane needed a nerf for PvP, but not the nerf that we just got. IMHO the worst thing about hurricane was not the repel but the debuff duration. It lasts WAY TOO LONG after you've got away from the radius. In addition it doesn't suppress your travel powers so a Stormy can SS/SJ through a group of toons, debuff them all, and get away with safety. The repel effects were the least of my concerns. :/
The thing that personally bugs me the most about this change is that, in a mission, I really can no longer protect a teamate if they got swarmed by more that they could handle. What I would do is if I saw a teamate was surrounded by a lot of NPCs and close to dieing, I would run in with huricane and push them away, giving me an opportunity to heal them with O2 boost. One of Storm's primary functions (at least to me) is to help protect the team by controlling the position of the enemies. If a teamate accidently agro'd another group, I would try to position my huricane in such a manner to effectively placed a wall between what my team was currently fighting, and what was trying to overwhelm them. By forcing this nerf upon the PvE aspect of the game, you severely reduce (if not obliterate) one of storm's primary functions in a team environment.
I think we seriously need to present these findings to a developer. From what I am reading, I am getting a feeling the developers only wanted these changes for PvP and this may be an error in the coding.
No matter how many times I heard "We'll never balance PVE around PVP" I always knew this would happen. Ever since the first time I stood among a pack of 12 werewolves with three blasters on my team and tore them apart without getting hit, as they stupidly kept trying to rush into our hurricane and getting repeled back, I knew this power would never fly in PVP. Why did I know that? Because even though there were ways for the skillful to counter hurricane, the average player still maintains a level of intelligence equal to an AI mob..
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*Sigh*
Once again the PvPers who refused to think through problems on the battlefield have gone and ruined things for everyone, including those who don't PvP at all or very often. The fact is, good PvPers know how to disable huricane fairly easily. All you have to remember are a few things:
1) Storm Defenders lack mez protection in their powerset. Unless they have another power that grants some or are teamed with people who can give them mez resistance, it can be very easy to hold, stun, sleep, whatever a storm defender.
2) Use travel powers to your advantage. If you have teleport, you can teleport right next to the defender and get off a mez attack before huricane takes effect. Or use superspeed's inertia to get in close.
3) Que your attack before engaging the storm defender. Remember, attacks will remained active ready to go off as soon as you get in range. So you can have a travel power ready, que the attack, get in close, and the mez attack or regular attack will go off on its own, even if you get repelled while it happens. The target only needs to be in range when the attack goes off.
So, there you have it, 3 simple things that can disable a stormie. Part of the challenge of PvP (and the fun if you ask me) is thinking through the challenges presented. It is a common theme that the best PvPers will do this, and that is why they are so strong. Not to say storm summoning's huricane did not need some nerf. The fact is forcing someone against a corner where they can do nothing (not even pop a break free) was a bit extreme and needed to be dealt with, but I think the developers are catering too much to people who just want a win button in PvP.
And why can't the effects of huricane be different in PvP and PvE. If you ask me, I haven't noticed storm being vastly overpowered in the PvE game. People must still think through their actions and I still risk death if I take on more than my powers can handle.
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All 3 of your suggestions can be avoided by the Stormy if he/she has Clear Mind or some other mez protection. Also even if you do have your melle attack qued you still be debuffed after hitting the Stormie--meaning that your Acc and Range will be floored.
Overall I do think Hurricane needed a nerf for PvP, but not the nerf that we just got. IMHO the worst thing about hurricane was not the repel but the debuff duration. It lasts WAY TOO LONG after you've got away from the radius. In addition it doesn't suppress your travel powers so a Stormy can SS/SJ through a group of toons, debuff them all, and get away with safety. The repel effects were the least of my concerns. :/
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The fact is, though, any build is more effective in a team with even semi-competent players. Any controller or corruptor can become a major threat if they are buffed with clear mind, as it is not as easy to removed from the fight via status effects. What I am trying to say, however, is that stormies are not an unstoppable solo force (as no AT, with the exception of Stalkers, to a degree, should be).
As for the accuracy problem? Yes, the accuracy debuff is fairly large with a well slotted huricane, but again, this can be negated in a decent group with powers like tactics, or the use of accuracy inspirations (maybe not just buy breakfrees, think more strategically).
Finally, a player with a high defence value can generally get through huricane pretty unscathed, from my experience. Think SR Stalker and assasine strike. Stormies are squishy afterall, so they don't require a lot to take out.
But the fact remains, forcing these nerfs into the PvE side of the game was not needed to this degree. Maybe a small nerf to the repel, but this is just ridiculous.
...if only PvP had never been introduced...
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Overall I do think Hurricane needed a nerf for PvP, but not the nerf that we just got. IMHO the worst thing about hurricane was not the repel but the debuff duration. It lasts WAY TOO LONG after you've got away from the radius. In addition it doesn't suppress your travel powers so a Stormy can SS/SJ through a group of toons, debuff them all, and get away with safety. The repel effects were the least of my concerns. :/
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/agree
I'd be lying if I said I wasn't happy to see that overpowered horror nerfed (for PVP). But I would have left it very powerful to those INSIDE the effect and just removed the stickiness to prevent jousting.
Help, I can't see, I got water in my eyes! It stings! 
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No matter how many times I heard "We'll never balance PVE around PVP" I always knew this would happen. Ever since the first time I stood among a pack of 12 werewolves with three blasters on my team and tore them apart without getting hit, as they stupidly kept trying to rush into our hurricane and getting repeled back, I knew this power would never fly in PVP. Why did I know that? Because even though there were ways for the skillful to counter hurricane, the average player still maintains a level of intelligence equal to an AI mob..
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I shall let the smilies tell the tale of what I thought of this post.
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No matter how many times I heard "We'll never balance PVE around PVP" I always knew this would happen.
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If anybody ever said "We'll never balance PvE around PvP," it wasn't a person with any authority. Statesman has said several times that they prefer to not balance that way and that they try to avoid it, but he made no guarantees.
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*Sigh*
Once again the PvPers who refused to think through problems on the battlefield have gone and ruined things for everyone, including those who don't PvP at all or very often. The fact is, good PvPers know how to disable huricane fairly easily. All you have to remember are a few things:
1) Storm Defenders lack mez protection in their powerset. Unless they have another power that grants some or are teamed with people who can give them mez resistance, it can be very easy to hold, stun, sleep, whatever a storm defender.
2) Use travel powers to your advantage. If you have teleport, you can teleport right next to the defender and get off a mez attack before huricane takes effect. Or use superspeed's inertia to get in close.
3) Que your attack before engaging the storm defender. Remember, attacks will remained active ready to go off as soon as you get in range. So you can have a travel power ready, que the attack, get in close, and the mez attack or regular attack will go off on its own, even if you get repelled while it happens. The target only needs to be in range when the attack goes off.
So, there you have it, 3 simple things that can disable a stormie. Part of the challenge of PvP (and the fun if you ask me) is thinking through the challenges presented. It is a common theme that the best PvPers will do this, and that is why they are so strong. Not to say storm summoning's huricane did not need some nerf. The fact is forcing someone against a corner where they can do nothing (not even pop a break free) was a bit extreme and needed to be dealt with, but I think the developers are catering too much to people who just want a win button in PvP.
And why can't the effects of huricane be different in PvP and PvE. If you ask me, I haven't noticed storm being vastly overpowered in the PvE game. People must still think through their actions and I still risk death if I take on more than my powers can handle.
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I tested this as much as I could in PVP with my tanker (Ice/Stone), and in my experience, if you do not have decent range, this stuff just doesn't work as well as you say.
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No matter how many times I heard "We'll never balance PVE around PVP" I always knew this would happen.
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If anybody ever said "We'll never balance PvE around PvP," it wasn't a person with any authority. Statesman has said several times that they prefer to not balance that way and that they try to avoid it, but he made no guarantees.
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QFT. I'm sure I heard "we'll never make a change in PvE for PvP" a million times before I4. Sadly, the only people who ever said it were players...
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No matter how many times I heard "We'll never balance PVE around PVP" I always knew this would happen.
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If anybody ever said "We'll never balance PvE around PvP," it wasn't a person with any authority. Statesman has said several times that they prefer to not balance that way and that they try to avoid it, but he made no guarantees.
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Yes but again this shows why NON pvpers despise pvp so damn much.
IT sucks the life out of the pve game even if you never touch pvp.
Pvp stinks, it never helps and usually hurts and adds to the game for very very few people.
Go to any pvp zone and listen to crickets chirp.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
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No matter how many times I heard "We'll never balance PVE around PVP" I always knew this would happen.
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If anybody ever said "We'll never balance PvE around PvP," it wasn't a person with any authority. Statesman has said several times that they prefer to not balance that way and that they try to avoid it, but he made no guarantees.
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QFT. I'm sure I heard "we'll never make a change in PvE for PvP" a million times before I4. Sadly, the only people who ever said it were players...
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States kept giving this implication after many many many players showed their distaste for any pvp at all.
And these are the reasons why.
He might never have said it, but he certainly gave that impression.
Oh yeah just like no more major nerfs to powers... Clinton speak at its highest form.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
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Well, at least there wasn't a massive hyperbole nerf...
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I hear they're nerfing hyperbole around the same time they're nerfing people. Originally scheduled to be in Issue 4, they keep on putting it off for some reason...
In other news: end cost reduced to 25% of its previous value? [censored], my stormies love this!
The game ends at 50.
SmilegasmDo not ever give Mind Control a pet.
We need more control sets without pets.My characters are not "toons".
They are all project characters, though.Global chat @Lxndr My servers: Defiant, Liberty, Pinnacle, Virtue
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Well, at least there wasn't a massive hyperbole nerf...
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You don't consider losing more than 75% of the Repel effect and about 20% of the ToHit DeBuff to be a massive nerf?
Kosmos
Global: @Calorie
MA Arcs in 4-star purgatory: Four in a Row (#2198) - Hostile Takeover (#69714) - Red Harvest (#268305)
Despite what some have read into the patch notes (which mention PvP, but do not specifically assert PvP only), the nerf to Hurricane affects PvE.
The Repel effect's tick rate has been reduced by half or more, the Repel effect itself seems weaker (mobs are pushed away more slowly, though that may be a consequence of the reduced tick rate) and even the radius of effect seems considerably shorter.
Mobs in PvE are now able to run right up to me and hit me, sometimes getting in two attacks before being repelled. They were also able to melee attack someone standing right next to me without being repelled at all. Making the Repel portion a personal defense only, not a team defense.
The reduced tick rate also makes using Hurricane to position foes take quite a bit longer. Enough so that I don't think it's worth the effort any more.
So, Hurricane probably lost more than half of its PvE effectiveness with this latest patch.
Kosmos
Global: @Calorie
MA Arcs in 4-star purgatory: Four in a Row (#2198) - Hostile Takeover (#69714) - Red Harvest (#268305)