Massive Hurricane nerf
By
aqshy2004,
Posted on: 2006-04-11 24:48 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Patch Notes:
Hurricane's Repel effect is now slightly less abusive in PvP situations. Hurricane will still interrupt Assassin Strikes, but it should no longer be possible to pin a player in a corner during Base Raids. The repel effect activates more slowly causing a reduction in the endurance cost over time to use the power.
You know, this may not be a lie, but it is definitely a half-truth:
1. Hurricane's Repel effect is now slightly less abusive in PvP situations. (TRUE)
2 Hurricane will still interrupt Assassin Strikes, but it should no longer be possible to pin a player in a corner during Base Raids. (TRUE)
3. The repel effect activates more slowly causing a reduction in the endurance cost over time to use the power. (HALF-TRUTH) After reading sentence 1., one may assume that this is a PVP change made for PVP reasons. Why wouldnt one make that assumption? Hurricane has been working as intended in PVE since Issue one.
I guess I made an a$$ of myself for believing that there would be a PVP version of Hurricane and an untouched PVE version. I mean that is the wildest assumption one could make reading the patch notes. 
28 L50's on Freedom
L50 Time Titan WP/Stn, L50 Lord Time Titan Grv/Rad, L50 Super Hero USA DM/Rgn
L50 Decoy Master Ill/Rad, L50 Shield Slinger SD/Ice, L50 Super Heavyweight Stn/Nrg
L50 King's Jester Fire/Kin, L50 Winterchill Ice/SS, L50 Alberta Clipper Ice/Ice
L50 I Mastermind Bots/Dark, L50 MVP Invul/Nrg, L50 Steely Resolve Psi/MM
Herding is now very near impossible. The time between ticks now makes it so that when I try to herd up a group they often have a very good chance to run out of the hurricanes SoI in between ticks.
The tick time also makes it almost impossible to shield a teammate with the hurricane, even with the debuff melee can now run up close enough to hit someone (had it happen several times last night).
I think that this is a pretty poor solution to what the devs want to prevent. Hopefully they take a closer look at this nerf and reverse it, because in all honesty I'm not really seeing this power as being so attractive as it once was.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm sitting here scratching my head about what's causing this huge uproar over this change...It still has one of the highest, if not THE highest, to-hit debuffs in the game; it has the only (that I can recall) range debuff in the game. Now the enemies stay in the debuff radius longer, since they're knocked back slightly less. And to top it all off, the endurance cost you spend for all these benefits is now 17% lower than Hover...
Perhaps I'm just not pessimistic enough, but I really fail to see where all the DOOOOOOM-speak is coming from.
[/ QUOTE ]
Because the fun of Hurricane in PvE was packing a dozen mobs into a tiny area, debuffing them and then letting your team AoE them. Keeping the mobs debuffed wasn't a problem. Endurance cost wasn't a problem. For an adept Storm Defender, there's no inherent advantage in this change.
Just for background ... I don't pvp. I levelled my Stormer from Launch to Nov2004. That was the most fun I've had in this game.
While I to loved the use of Herdicane, and trust me, I abused that tactic for over 50 levels, I couldn't help but see this coming.
I was able to herd the entire room that Atta was in, or pull it apart piece by herding piece, taking next to no damage. I was effectively replacing the tank. Now while I am still able to do something similar, I'm not able to do it as effectively. I may not be able to pin things in the corner like I used to, but I'll look at that as a step up of difficultly, adjust tactics, and enjoy the new challenge.
Before it was the challenge of trying to keep things in once spot without an Immoblize. Now it's a matter of keeping things debuffed and trying to keep them where I want them or don't want them.
>.>
<.<
That and I can now debuff things without moving them! Which means that I'm not accidentally pushing them off Ice patches, or away from the tank, or off a roof. Now I can debuff them while they continue to attack the Tank, and not worry about scatter.
And while I was going a bit of the "Oh Noes!" at first, I can't say the change has been entirely bad. It's just a change with some good and bad mixed it.
[ QUOTE ]
While I to loved the use of Herdicane, and trust me, I abused that tactic for over 50 levels, I couldn't help but see this coming.
I was able to herd the entire room that Atta was in, or pull it apart piece by herding piece, taking next to no damage. I was effectively replacing the tank. Now while I am still able to do something similar, I'm not able to do it as effectively. I may not be able to pin things in the corner like I used to, but I'll look at that as a step up of difficultly, adjust tactics, and enjoy the new challenge.
Before it was the challenge of trying to keep things in once spot without an Immoblize. Now it's a matter of keeping things debuffed and trying to keep them where I want them or don't want them.
>.>
<.<
That and I can now debuff things without moving them! Which means that I'm not accidentally pushing them off Ice patches, or away from the tank, or off a roof. Now I can debuff them while they continue to attack the Tank, and not worry about scatter.
And while I was going a bit of the "Oh Noes!" at first, I can't say the change has been entirely bad. It's just a change with some good and bad mixed it.
[/ QUOTE ]
one thing a tank could do that a stormer never seemed to be able to do, however, was hold aggro. it was always better to have a tank do the herding. furthermore, all it ever took was one hit from the right mob and the stormer was mezzed. any delusions he/she had of being a tank quickly vanished when the word "stunned" appeared in the upper right hand corner of the screen. yes, hurricane was effectve, i'd hesitate to say it was abusive however.
another note: herdicaning != herding. two different things. herding = herding. herdicaning is the positioning of mobs via hurricane's repel and KB. herding was considered an exploit and changed with the aggro cap, herdicaning was not.
now, because hurricane's repel pulses less frequently, i'm concerned scattering mobs while attempting to debuff them will be MUCH MORE OF A CONCERN. when you approach a mob, for instance and your repel has just finished pusling it will be a full second before the mob MIGHT be affected by the next pulse. conversely, if you hit a mob just as the repel is pulsing the mob MIGHT be affected immediately. the problem is an old one for storm defenders (not so much for controllers because of the differences in the way they use hurricane relative to their primary holds/immobs)...the problem is one of unpredictability. a storm defender has NO WAY OF KNOWING WHETHER REPEL IS ABOUT TO PULSE. he/she therefor has no way of consistently applying its repel power and can therefor NOT POSITION MOBS as reliably as before.
and, while i agree the endurance reduction is handy, it is by no means needed for a well-built storm defender.
yes there is some good that comes with this change, but there's a lot more bad.
finally, i have a question to the community...
i've not seen anything about the rest of hurricane's debuffs. if anyone has seen a red name response as to the extent to which -to hit and -range are affected by the increase in time between pulses, i'd be very curious to read it. are these debuffing properties of hurricane applied with each pulse? or are they independent of the pulse rate?
if anyone knows for sure, please let me know.
i haven't been able to do that much testing yet.
[ QUOTE ]
Before it was the challenge of trying to keep things in once spot without an Immoblize. Now it's a matter of keeping things debuffed and trying to keep them where I want them or don't want them.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, the challenge is certainly increased, but at some point the time of execution becomes such that positioning is no longer practical. It may be -possible-, but it may not be practical, given your teams limited patience. To be honest, I have to play with it more, but as Stormbringer pointed out ... ragdoll had already added to the 'challenge' and this change may have put us over the edge.
On the 'upside', my Storm/Elec only needs one or two TF badges. Once those are completed, I won't really have a use for him. I'd consider rolling a Storm/Dark, but I'm not sure I can stomach playing another defender in this post I5 era.
If you can't stomach another Defender, might I point you to a Controller? The Hurricane adjustment is less prevailent there, as with immoblizes, you can effectively lock them in place, and move them ever so until they're in a group. No more need for a handy corner, as they're stuck in place with the immoblize / hold.
Plus you can get a variaty of other helping tools (Gravity / Storm seems to be the best to me, because with the Immoblize not affecting knockdown and with Wormhole as a great Mob Mover) which can make the job easier. It's a different tool, certainly, but Hurricane is still very much viable, IMO.
s'ok OC, you can just be our h34l3r now with that leet buffed 02 boost.
[ QUOTE ]
are these debuffing properties of hurricane applied with each pulse? or are they independent of the pulse rate?
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm 95% certain that the -Range and the -Accuracy are connected, and not to the pulse at all. Just brushing the enemies has decreased their accuracy, even when I don't move them at all. (tested last night on Crey)
Another reason I believe this is PvP related. The -Acc and -Range last 10 seconds after leaving the hurricane's effect, that implies that it's independant of the Repel effect. While the initial debuff MIGHT (heavy emphasis on might there) be related to the Repel effect, I don't believe it to be so, as I previously stated by my Crey testing in the paragraph above.
[ QUOTE ]
If you can't stomach another Defender, might I point you to a Controller? The Hurricane adjustment is less prevailent there, as with immoblizes, you can effectively lock them in place, and move them ever so until they're in a group. No more need for a handy corner, as they're stuck in place with the immoblize / hold.
Plus you can get a variaty of other helping tools (Gravity / Storm seems to be the best to me, because with the Immoblize not affecting knockdown and with Wormhole as a great Mob Mover) which can make the job easier. It's a different tool, certainly, but Hurricane is still very much viable, IMO.
[/ QUOTE ]
ice/storm is good too.
the group immob in ice resists KB so you can stack it with tornado for mad damage.
and, yeah, the hurricane nerf doesn't affect controllers so much. tho this depends on playstyle.
[ QUOTE ]
If you can't stomach another Defender, might I point you to a Controller? The Hurricane adjustment is less prevailent there, as with immoblizes, you can effectively lock them in place, and move them ever so until they're in a group. No more need for a handy corner, as they're stuck in place with the immoblize / hold.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeh, I've been meaning to level a controller. Haven't taken one past L12, as I always find myself missing the blasts (pre ED, of course). Corners made packing easier and more effective, but they weren't strictly necessary. Snowstorm plus Freezing Rain was enough slow and knockdown that you could pack a group in open field by running circles, moreso pre-ragdoll. Couldnt get the pack small enough to get the AoE from Lightning Storm, but it was tight enough for a blasters AoE or a spiners Spine Burst.
My apologies if my posts sound 'whiney', I'm just disappointed this change affected PvE. I had hoped, perhaps foolishly, that it wouldnt.
Ok I snuck on for a little bit to test this out (I knew there was a reason I installed on my work machine!). I used Zapping (level 50 storm/elec) and went to PI by portal corp where there were a bunch of level 50 mobs.
First group I took on were 3 lvl 50 malta, 1 sapper and 2 other I don't remember what. I took out the sapper, 1 enemy ran, so I cornered the other and took him out, waited for the third to return and took him out. Easy fight, not a good test as they split up early.
Next fight was a solo Hercules Titan, conned yellow. Pushed him into a corner and took him out pretty easy. Basically hurricane is still pretty easy to use on single targets.
Next I went through a few groups of possessed scientists. Each group had three scientists, all conned white. This is where I really noticed my problems herdicaning. Even with only 3 enemies, they could easily split up and move around between pulses. Knockback was the only thing that helped as they couldn't run when they were on the ground, but then again the ragdoll physics also makes it harder to push them. These were still easy fights, but it showed me that herding larger groups of higher level stuff is definitely going to cause issues. Not impossible, but definitely issues.
My final fight before I had to log to actually do some work (ok really to post this here) was two orange death mages. Now part of my problem is there weren't any good corners near where I found them, but in the past that just meant pushing them to where there were. Much harder here. Basically I had to focus on locking one down as much as possible while hoping the other didn't get me. Lightning storm, voltic sentinel and tornado were vital in keeping them off me as they could stun me since I couldn't keep them locked in a corner. Mid-fight my ever trusty tornado aggroed a group of carnies as well. Turned out to be a good test. Took out the strongmen quick since they were always good versus hurricane, but was still able to ignore the fencers, etc while finishing off the mage.
So I guess my final impression based on a fairly short session of testing on small weak groups. Hurricane is no where near the power it once was. The debuff is still good, but the repel was an important part of the defense, and its no where near as reliable as it was.
That being said, I'm sure I'll learn to adapt. I hope they'll look at the feedback and maybe buff the pulse time a bit - maybe meet part way between the old and the new. But I'm not going to quit over this, nor do I hope to see the defender boards turn into the "woe is me" boards that other class boards have turned into.
After all I'm a stormer, best class in the game. There's a reason there aren't any stormers in the CoH comic. They'd debuff Manticore's ability to shoot them and they'd make Statesman look weak.
Zapping, 50 storm/elec
Rain King, 50 ice/storm
Ard, 50 NB/SR
The rest of my lineup
Justice, Freedom and Virtue Servers
www.repeat-offenders.net
Avatar by Altoholic_Monkey!
[ QUOTE ]
s'ok OC, you can just be our h34l3r now with that leet buffed 02 boost.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hey, no need to be insulting. 
You didn't sound whiney at all. Other people in this thread have sounded MUCH more whiney then you.
But on topic... Kinda. While Corners were the primary use of Hurricane to keep things nice and packed, and yes, Snowstorm + Freezing Rain is how I would do it against large open spaces (Atta cave, Fir Bolg, etc) I always considered that method inferior because of the Rag Doll physics coupled with knockback in general (be it mine or someone elses).
I personally had hoped that it would be a PvP only change as well (that's how it sounded in the Patch Notes to me at first blush), but I can't argue that it wasn't unwarrented to adjust the PvE as well.
As for rolling a Controller... if you miss the blasts, look into Gravity. Propel, while a really long animation, is amazing good damage with Containment. Crush is a very decent DoT as well. Slot those two up as if they were blasts, and you should do just dandy for your damage fix. While not as damaging (imo) as a Defender, and certainly without the variety, it can make the transition much easier to handle.
I seriously think the devs should elaborate a little more on why it was nerf'd. From what I can see it appears that Hurricane was infact operating outside of what it was intended to do and was simply highlighted by PvP. Assuming it was altered for PvE due to PvP issues isn't a fair assumption since the devs are not in the habit of lying and said this wouldn't happen if they could help it.
As such I suspect the change was because Storm Control is a (de)buff set and having an AoE control power was outside of its normal purpose. You have to admit, the -range, knockback and -acc was secondary to the repel itself. So in sense, the debuff aspect was taking a back seat to the control aspect.
That simply seems wrong for a debuff powerset. I don't think the power has been made less valuable at all, its simply changed purpose. I have two stormies and one is going to benefit alot from this change, it used to be annoying being unable to use Ice Slick with Hurricane as it would instantly force them off of the ice. Now its possible to benefit from the -acc debuff and keep them on the ice for longer as well.
/agreed on your Hurricane points, and thanks for the Grav idea. Does sound like a reasonable approximation of early defender blasts.
[ QUOTE ]
As such I suspect the change was because Storm Control is a (de)buff set and having an AoE control power was outside of its normal purpose.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's the general consensious of those who aren't in the habit of blaming nerfs on A) Nerf hering, B) PvP, C) Devs hating us, D) All of the above.
I tend to agree that the positional aspect of Hurricane was overshadowing the -Acc and -Range, and to a lesser extent, the Knockback.
[ QUOTE ]
/agreed on your Hurricane points, and thanks for the Grav idea. Does sound like a reasonable approximation of early defender blasts.
[/ QUOTE ]
If you ever want to chuck ideas at me for a Controller, shoot me a PM, and I'll be glad to put my brain power to work on it with you. Finding synergy between powersets is one thing I won't grow tired of.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As such I suspect the change was because Storm Control is a (de)buff set and having an AoE control power was outside of its normal purpose.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's the general consensious of those who aren't in the habit of blaming nerfs on A) Nerf hering, B) PvP, C) Devs hating us, D) All of the above.
I tend to agree that the positional aspect of Hurricane was overshadowing the -Acc and -Range, and to a lesser extent, the Knockback.
[/ QUOTE ]
problem is that the dev rationale for the repel change was to keep stormers from pinning opponants in corners during base raids.
seems to imply it was a pvp change.
Having PvP as one rational for a change, doesn't make it the sole reason. Or so I would hope to believe. That may have started the line of thought that there was a problem, and it feels like that's what started it, but again, that doesn't make it the only factor.
sure but, as of right now, it's the only factor the devs have mentioned.
i'd be curious to hear more from them on this matter.
Good thing I got my Ice/Storm to L50 last nite. I had already noticed that blocking a door or corridor was not working very well. Mobs would run right past me, through the hurricane, to the squishies in the rear ranks and lay into the healers and blasters like I wasnt there. Several players noted that I could no longer effectively block doorways/corridors.
Good thing Ice/Storm has an abundance of controls and slows because I sure had to change tactics to protect the squishies yesterday.
Unfortunately that prevented me from helping the melee front ranks by locking down mobs they managed to aggro...
All in all, the spawns took longer to dispatch than before the latest change.
Que bono?
Ive yet to actually have the opportunity to take my Hurricane out for a test spin, but I have to say, the observations of this change thus far are somewhat worrisome.
I didnt often utilize my Hurricane as a debuff. That was a handy aspect, certainly, but it was the repel that made it a useful tool for my Controller. I very much enjoyed shoving a group of villains into a corner to unleash Tornado upon them without scattering them to the four winds. There were always enemies that slipped away, so it was hardly perfect, but now it sounds as if its usefulness as a control tool has been lessened significantly.
Im not often one to rant about the changes of PvP moving into PvE, but it seems fairly obvious that the hugely unpopular Storm set had a single power that made some Controllers (yes, Controllers) very popular and more difficult to destroy utterly in the blink of an eye than their cousins in PvP. I dont think I ever heard anyone make mention of how overpowered Hurricane was in PvE or how unbalancing it made the game. Its very disappointing to see a certain brand of complaints that were meant to be discouraged by the party line of PvP isnt balanced for one on one successfully sway the Devs.
In truth, this doesnt affect my Controllers prowess all that greatly. Its for the Defenders that I feel. While I still have a myriad of tools to keep players and mobs alike off my back during a fight, those with Storm primary have lost one of the only abilities any Defender had to help protect them.
----------------------
Pinnacle ~Carl and Sons/The Establishment
Khenti Lvl 15 Warshade
AkenAmenti Lvl 20 Necromancy/Dark Mastermind
Crey Cryostorm Lvl 50 Ice/Storm/Ice Controller
Hound of Belial Lvl 40 Fire/Kinetic Corruptor
[ QUOTE ]
problem is that the dev rationale for the repel change was to keep stormers from pinning opponants in corners during base raids.
seems to imply it was a pvp change.
[/ QUOTE ]
And if we follow the Dev's rationale a bit further, I'm afraid we may see powers like force bubble and telekinesis whacked.
28 L50's on Freedom
L50 Time Titan WP/Stn, L50 Lord Time Titan Grv/Rad, L50 Super Hero USA DM/Rgn
L50 Decoy Master Ill/Rad, L50 Shield Slinger SD/Ice, L50 Super Heavyweight Stn/Nrg
L50 King's Jester Fire/Kin, L50 Winterchill Ice/SS, L50 Alberta Clipper Ice/Ice
L50 I Mastermind Bots/Dark, L50 MVP Invul/Nrg, L50 Steely Resolve Psi/MM
[ QUOTE ]
dood, have you tried herdicaning recently?
it's a pain in the [censored] after ragdoll physics!
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeh, I came back not too long ago. Finally got around to respec'ing my Stormer to deal with ED, the HO nerf, and the defense nerf. Ragdoll and the aggro cap nerf certainly messed with herdicanning. It was a ton harder than before, but I was enjoying the 'challenge' of trying to make it work while running some of the new TFs. Now it looks like positioning is completely dead, which was the best part about the Storm set, imo.