Massive Hurricane nerf
By
aqshy2004,
Posted on: 2006-04-11 24:48 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Stormies are complaing "A blaster can get me!" Yeah, well melee isn't range and having to take this or that power soley for trying to counter hurricane isn't balanced. Each AT has many powers to choose from. In PvP, almost every other AT uses a lot their powers. Stormies? Most just click on Hurricane and use that and that alone. That right there says it's been overpowered. Instant Healing was overpowered for PvP. Just as Hurricane is now. They do different things, yes, but they were/are overpowered for PvP. Now maybe stormies can pay attention to using their other powers.
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quoted for sheer ignorance.
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It'll be ok. Nerfs suck, yes. Sometimes though they're necessary to make the playing field a little more fair. I should know the suckage pretty well with my Regen. It's ok if u want to cry. I know I did too when I had MORE THAN ONE of my bread and butter powers nerfed issue after issue.
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yeah, maybe i'll cry to the devs.
see if i can get 'em to nerf the regen set.
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Where have you been? They've have nerfed regen so many times over and over from like Issue 3-5. The next nerf they could possibly do would turn yet another one of my powers into a click. Then I could respec and have the entire "Click To Heal Collection!" with Instant Healing, Reconstruction, Dull Pain, and then finally Integration. I think anyone on the forums knows how the axe has fallen on Regen. We're talking one of your powers. I'm talking 3 of my powers that were completely altered by turning into a click, an 8 minute recharge with 3 minute up time, adding heals to a non heal power, etc. I'm already an Selfempathy healer with all the click heals. 
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In PvP, almost every other AT uses a lot their powers. Stormies? Most just click on Hurricane and use that and that alone. That right there says it's been overpowered. Instant Healing was overpowered for PvP.
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Can't remember when I've ever killed someone with hurricane. Granted I really never PvP, but last I checked it caused 0 damage, I actually have to use a few other powers if I hope to actually defeat someone. Thats like saying tanks rely on their shields in PvP. Of course they do! But they have to attack to kill stuff. Same with stormies.
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Instant Healing never killed anyone either directly. It helped keep me alive and make me unstoppable. Sort of the purpose Hurricane has. I have to attack to kill things. I don't have range so I have to run up and get in everyone's face. I have to use more then one power to take someone down which includes my actual attacks, Int, and Focus Chi. Hell, I even have to chase after everyone because I can't snipe them being melee.
Most stormies I see in PvP just use Hurricane... They proceed to be the bowling ball against a whole bunch of opponents that surround them but that's all they do is use one power. Thank God we have a blaster amongst us. Otherwise the 7 others on the team would have a problem even touching the Stormie because they're melee. See the problem? Everyone should be able to have a chance at each other in PvP. I know blasters who can take me down because I can't touch them because they're far away. If I get close, watch out. But I have to be able to get close and it's something that doesn't always happen. Why we have travel powers. Run away, chase, etc. But to sit there and watch someone with Hurricane use one power, not even their travel power is really being used, it says there's a problem.
Either give stormies more dmg to some powers or something. I had hoped for a Hurricane nerf for some time because in PvP it's overpowered for various reasons. People should have a chance to be able to get through and hit a stormie besides having to use MoG or try to jump on his/her head. No one should have to switch their travel power to SS just to be able to take on Hurricane. PvP will never be balanced unless all our ATs ended up doing the same things and having the same powers.
Do I think that PvE and PvP should allow for powers to work differently whether you're in PvE or PvP, YES. I'm tired of the nerfs I see with the devs trying to say "it's not because of PvP". Please. Spare me the making themselves look even worse lying excuses.. Some powers are overpowered. Sometimes when you nerf one, you make another overpowered. The whole thing is a mess to sort out that's ongoing. Does anyone like being nerfed with a toon they love, no. I feel your pain. In this situation I feel it WAS necessary though. Will I have people name call me and stuff, sure. Whatever. I did it when they rolled into the Scrapper forumn and were laughing at all our nerfs and said it needed to be done. Nerfs happen. And unfortunately, the powers that be can't seem to figure out how to do them without messing with all our favorities powers.
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once again, you're mistaken.
any stormer that ran into battle with only hurricane running wouldn't be very effective at all.
he'd be dead.
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How about against a team of 6 MA scrappers with Super Jump? The stormie would rule. Against 6.. With one power. Of course he wouldn't be attacking them with dmg really, but then what's the point of being in PvP? To serve as a dmgless bowling ball or try to up your rep or get bounty? Many choose the first.
i guess the problem is that....it doesn't make sense.
to claim a hurricane was overpowered in a certain aspect of pvp (base raids of all things) as grounds for a pvp and pve nerf doesn't completely add up.
something's missing here.
if nothing else a simple explanation that, given the coding of the power, it had to be the same in pvp and in pve.
that would be enough.
but we didn't get that.
we got...nothing.
it's almost as if the devs were addressing the wrong question or that something got lost in translation.
i dunno, it's just bizarre.
until the devs answer the right questions here, their treatment of the issue appears sloppy and ill-informed.
as a customer with so many hours invested in this project, i'm deeply concerned.
and come on...was hurricane so powerful to begin with that it outshone powers like force bubble, detention field, TK, and sonic cage..?
i know opinions are going to vary on this, but i really don't think so.
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i guess the problem is that....it doesn't make sense
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That is the problem, as i see it as well. Something, somewhere, was lost in some translation. I can see some intern looking at a piece of paper marked "Memo: Hurricane" and wondering what it's about, but places it in the shredder. Atleast, that's the amusing thought that enters my mind...
A simple explanation of it, especially the "why did it affect PvE too" would be good. Of all the information they could give out, that would be what I think is the best bit.
But because there are so many people each asking for different information, which bit of info do you give? And you know the moment they give out a drop, people will ask for more. It happens everytime. "Well that's great _Castle_, but why did XYZ happen in the first place?"
I'm not trying to defend the (imo) crappy info they have given us already, just trying to defend the idea that they have the draw the info line somewhere. I just think they drew it too soon, heh.
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How about against a team of 6 MA scrappers with Super Jump? The stormie would rule. Against 6.. With one power. Of course he wouldn't be attacking them with dmg really, but then what's the point of being in PvP? To serve as a dmgless bowling ball or try to up your rep or get bounty? Many choose the first.
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I've wondered this very thing since it came out. 
I do recognize that my dilemma is not universal. Nor should PvP be so.
Edit: Super_Villain
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I wasn't trying to misslead you with anything I've said, but give you what I thought, and why I thought it. I am sorry that it came out that way, it certainly wasn't my intention.
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I was referring to the patch notes in regards to misleading, not yourself. No worries.
A guide to the deranged, degraded inhabitants of the forums.
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In PvP, almost every other AT uses a lot their powers. Stormies? Most just click on Hurricane and use that and that alone. That right there says it's been overpowered. Instant Healing was overpowered for PvP.
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Can't remember when I've ever killed someone with hurricane. Granted I really never PvP, but last I checked it caused 0 damage, I actually have to use a few other powers if I hope to actually defeat someone. Thats like saying tanks rely on their shields in PvP. Of course they do! But they have to attack to kill stuff. Same with stormies.
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Instant Healing never killed anyone either directly. It helped keep me alive and make me unstoppable. Sort of the purpose Hurricane has. I have to attack to kill things. I don't have range so I have to run up and get in everyone's face. I have to use more then one power to take someone down which includes my actual attacks, Int, and Focus Chi. Hell, I even have to chase after everyone because I can't snipe them being melee.
Most stormies I see in PvP just use Hurricane... They proceed to be the bowling ball against a whole bunch of opponents that surround them but that's all they do is use one power. Thank God we have a blaster amongst us. Otherwise the 7 others on the team would have a problem even touching the Stormie because they're melee. See the problem? Everyone should be able to have a chance at each other in PvP. I know blasters who can take me down because I can't touch them because they're far away. If I get close, watch out. But I have to be able to get close and it's something that doesn't always happen. Why we have travel powers. Run away, chase, etc. But to sit there and watch someone with Hurricane use one power, not even their travel power is really being used, it says there's a problem.
Either give stormies more dmg to some powers or something. I had hoped for a Hurricane nerf for some time because in PvP it's overpowered for various reasons. People should have a chance to be able to get through and hit a stormie besides having to use MoG or try to jump on his/her head. No one should have to switch their travel power to SS just to be able to take on Hurricane. PvP will never be balanced unless all our ATs ended up doing the same things and having the same powers.
Do I think that PvE and PvP should allow for powers to work differently whether you're in PvE or PvP, YES. I'm tired of the nerfs I see with the devs trying to say "it's not because of PvP". Please. Spare me the making themselves look even worse lying excuses.. Some powers are overpowered. Sometimes when you nerf one, you make another overpowered. The whole thing is a mess to sort out that's ongoing. Does anyone like being nerfed with a toon they love, no. I feel your pain. In this situation I feel it WAS necessary though. Will I have people name call me and stuff, sure. Whatever. I did it when they rolled into the Scrapper forumn and were laughing at all our nerfs and said it needed to be done. Nerfs happen. And unfortunately, the powers that be can't seem to figure out how to do them without messing with all our favorities powers.
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once again, you're mistaken.
any stormer that ran into battle with only hurricane running wouldn't be very effective at all.
he'd be dead.
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How about against a team of 6 MA scrappers with Super Jump? The stormie would rule. Against 6.. With one power. Of course he wouldn't be attacking them with dmg really, but then what's the point of being in PvP? To serve as a dmgless bowling ball or try to up your rep or get bounty? Many choose the first.
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no, here's what would happen...
one of the scrappers would guy a stun grenade.
and it'd be all over.
I don't think they have drawn any line as of yet. That is why some of us are posting here.
It often indicates that they are reevaluating the change if they do not post any blurb at all (particularly since States asked Castle to be pseudo-rep for a while), or that perhaps Castle is testing in PvE to see what he thinks.
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How about against a team of 6 MA scrappers with Super Jump? The stormie would rule. Against 6.. With one power. Of course he wouldn't be attacking them with dmg really, but then what's the point of being in PvP? To serve as a dmgless bowling ball or try to up your rep or get bounty? Many choose the first.
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I've wondered this very thing since it came out.
I do recognize that my dilemma is not universal. Nor should PvP be so.
Edit: Supervillain
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I wasn't trying to misslead you with anything I've said, but give you what I thought, and why I thought it. I am sorry that it came out that way, it certainly wasn't my intention.
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I was referring to the patch notes in regards to misleading, not yourself. No worries.
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The devs "reasonings" are usually a buncha crap in my opinion. I saw they mentioned something about "stamina" in regards to nerfing Hurricane. They also said that by turning Instant Healing into a click it would help with a Regen's endurance issues... They HAD to be kidding. Regen can not only get Stamina, but Quick Recovery!!! I NEVER had an endurance problem! So... The devs have never really do a good, honest, non-foot-in the mouth, explanation about nerfs. It's like when people try to sell you a bridge or talk about WMDs. :-b
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I don't think they have drawn any line as of yet. That is why some of us are posting here.
It often indicates that they are reevaluating the change if they do not post any blurb at all (particularly since States asked Castle to be pseudo-rep for a while), or that perhaps Castle is testing in PvE to see what he thinks.
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Ah, now that is entirely possible! I hadn't thought of that myself, and I tend to see changes that are pushed through as "done" unless specified. But if left unspecified, it could mean they are contemplating a change or alteration, but haven't been able to do so yet, even though the orriginal change has to go through do to the planned internal timeline.
Good call on that one!
As for the fact that no line has been drawn yet and that's the reason for the posts... Possible. Something else I hadn't thought of, for similar reasons to those listed above. I guess this is a "wait and see" moment now, instead of a "adjust" moment.
Yeah.. I am a bit irritated that once again, one of the less popular and widely considered least desirable Defender sets got nerfed. Shades of DA, SR, IA here.
A no attack "Group-Friendly" Defender is like a "Team Friendly" basketball player who won't dribble, run, or shoot, under any circumstances. "I'm a PASSER."
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The devs "reasonings" are usually a buncha crap in my opinion. I saw they mentioned something about "stamina" in regards to nerfing Hurricane. They also said that by turning Instant Healing into a click it would help with a Regen's endurance issues... They HAD to be kidding. Regen can not only get Stamina, but Quick Recovery!!! I NEVER had an endurance problem! So... The devs have never really do a good, honest, non-foot-in the mouth, explanation about nerfs. It's like when people try to sell you a bridge or talk about WMDs. :-b
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Yes, the unintended 'endurance save' struck me as particularily rhubarb-rubbing, given Hurricane's status as one of the lowest cost toggles a Stormie could run. Thanks for the accident! 
A guide to the deranged, degraded inhabitants of the forums.
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Edit: Super_Villain
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I wasn't trying to misslead you with anything I've said, but give you what I thought, and why I thought it. I am sorry that it came out that way, it certainly wasn't my intention.
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I was referring to the patch notes in regards to misleading, not yourself. No worries.
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Ah, well that clears it up in my head then! Phew, I thought I was losing touch with my thoughts and words there! Like I was thinking one thing, but my hands were going off and doing their own thing!
I wouldn't call the patch notes missleading, personally, but incomplete.
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Well, I guess that is a form of missleading, but I look at intent (the real intent, or the supposed intent I give them 
) for issues like this. I certainly don't think they intended to misslead us.
i do recall a red-name post in the "issues and concerns with storm summoning" thread (of long ago) informing the community that we shouldn't worry about how our set is performing...storm does very well in pvp (this was during pvp beta).
maybe it's time to ressurect that thread...
Why I should care how a set performs in PvP is beyond me.. that's like telling me that it's OK that my computer suddenly crashes all the time because "It's very efficient at heating the room".
A no attack "Group-Friendly" Defender is like a "Team Friendly" basketball player who won't dribble, run, or shoot, under any circumstances. "I'm a PASSER."
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i do recall a red-name post in the "issues and concerns with storm summoning" thread (of long ago) informing the community that we shouldn't worry about how our set is performing...storm does very well in pvp (this was during pvp beta).
maybe it's time to ressurect that thread...
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I just went through my PMs read an exchange with Cuppa I had complaining about Hurricane and changing it. I had talked about turning it into a click or doing something to it and Cuppa said she didn't see any changes like that coming to it. Statesman must be having his period and all the toradoes happening around the country made him take his wrath out on stormies.
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I wouldn't call the patch notes missleading, personally, but incomplete.
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Well, I guess that is a form of missleading, but I look at intent (the real intent, or the supposed intent I give them ) for issues like this. I certainly don't think they intended to misslead us.
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This is where we differ somewhat in our opinions. I have no real love for intentions in game design. I rather doubt the developers of any game have it out for anyone. Conversely, it's said the road to hell is paved in good ones. What I care about are informed decisions and informative communication from the developers. I simply don't think the double whammy of Hurricane/To Hit Debuff changes, their far-reaching effects on both PvP and PvE and what we were told of them qualify as either.
A guide to the deranged, degraded inhabitants of the forums.
Well the ToHit Debuff changes were explained to my satisfaction (though as anyone can tell, my expecations for that is kind of low, eh?) in that it's just a temporary nerf until I7 hits, where it will turn into a net gain (or atleast that's how I saw the math that Statesman posted, but I'm not the biggest number cruncher out there).
The Hurricane change I agree leaves us hanging though.
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Why I should care how a set performs in PvP is beyond me.. that's like telling me that it's OK that my computer suddenly crashes all the time because "It's very efficient at heating the room".
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i do recall a red-name post in the "issues and concerns with storm summoning" thread (of long ago) informing the community that we shouldn't worry about how our set is performing...storm does very well in pvp (this was during pvp beta).
maybe it's time to ressurect that thread...
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I just went through my PMs read an exchange with Cuppa I had complaining about Hurricane and changing it. I had talked about turning it into a click or doing something to it and Cuppa said she didn't see any changes like that coming to it. Statesman must be having his period and all the toradoes happening around the country made him take his wrath out on stormies.
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kid, may i ask what you and your team did to try to overcome the unbalancing effects of hurricane in pvp before you complained to cuppa about it?
Stormbringer,
You just spent a fair amount of time saying not much.
I mentioned you need a travel power. That implies clearly that you need the prerequisites. Please don't tell me you need two. I've never once faced a storm user with two, and they all did fine. Super Jump was normally more than sufficient.
Mez protection is far from required for a Stormie to be effective. I know. Do you know why? Because all of my PvP experience is with characters that have holds, and I made it my mission to disable the Hurricane casters I saw.
Remember that my post was about team tactics. Only very poor teams leave the storm character alone while someone like a Dominator picks on them. Yes, I usually disrupted the stormie. Yes, it had meaning or I wouldn't have kept it up. But it was virtually always suicide for me. It involved sacrificing myself over and over just to nullify that one character for 20 or so seconds.
Any hero team smarter than a sack of rocks protected the Storm defender. Anyone who could had mez protection cast on them. Anyone who could immediately healed them. Anyone who could immediately tried to kill anyone who threatend the Storm Defender/Controller.
What other character in PvP warrents that kind of attention? What other powerset in play is a huge red flag of "defeat that character or we are screwed?" Can you name one that even comes close to the urgency of Hurricane?
Most Storm characters are far from helpless. Controllers have a wide array of counter mezzes to use on you. Some of the Defender blast sets are very effective against other Squishies in PvP - I can only wish I got the full Psionic Blast set that Defenders do on my Dominator.
Again, let me restate what I said in my post. Hurricane was not perfect. Hurricane users were not invincible. However, the singular effect of that power on the battlefield overshadowed everything else. The arrival of no other hero powerset could change the course of events to the degree that Hurricane could. This is why it was changed.
If you want to see a Hurricane player who could kill you dead as a Squishie, I recommend you look up Blunt on the Justice server. His character was Storm/Psi. And, in fact, he could kill Dominators and Corruptors with tremendous facility. Psi Blast contains some excellent, fast activating blasts that include such wonderful side effects as sleep, disorient and immobilization. Combining this with the knockback effect of Hurricane, the slow and -fly effects of Snowstorm, and Hurricane's lingering toHit debuff, Blunt could catch other squishies, disable them, prevent them from getting up, and kill them at leasure.
So understand that appealing to my notion that somehow Hurricane users are helpless targets simply isn't going to carry much weight with me. Do I think they were godly? Certainly not. But they weren't some walking target, just waiting to die.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Well the ToHit Debuff changes were explained to my satisfaction (though as anyone can tell, my expecations for that is kind of low, eh?) in that it's just a temporary nerf until I7 hits, where it will turn into a net gain (or atleast that's how I saw the math that Statesman posted, but I'm not the biggest number cruncher out there).
The Hurricane change I agree leaves us hanging though.
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I'm not the biggest cruncher myself, but I listen to folks who are. I7 defense-scaling changes help out two things primarily: Defense and Accuracy buffs. The effect they have on To Hit buffs (and debuffs), based off of the differences between Accuracy and To Hit, are minimal. There are many threads on this topic. I do not say whether or not the To Hit debuffs of Defenders were overpowering and thus in need of rescheduling. I say that the double whammy hurt Storm Summoning more than most and should be addressed.
A guide to the deranged, degraded inhabitants of the forums.
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In PvP, almost every other AT uses a lot their powers. Stormies? Most just click on Hurricane and use that and that alone. That right there says it's been overpowered. Instant Healing was overpowered for PvP.
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Can't remember when I've ever killed someone with hurricane. Granted I really never PvP, but last I checked it caused 0 damage, I actually have to use a few other powers if I hope to actually defeat someone. Thats like saying tanks rely on their shields in PvP. Of course they do! But they have to attack to kill stuff. Same with stormies.
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Instant Healing never killed anyone either directly. It helped keep me alive and make me unstoppable. Sort of the purpose Hurricane has. I have to attack to kill things. I don't have range so I have to run up and get in everyone's face. I have to use more then one power to take someone down which includes my actual attacks, Int, and Focus Chi. Hell, I even have to chase after everyone because I can't snipe them being melee.
Most stormies I see in PvP just use Hurricane... They proceed to be the bowling ball against a whole bunch of opponents that surround them but that's all they do is use one power. Thank God we have a blaster amongst us. Otherwise the 7 others on the team would have a problem even touching the Stormie because they're melee. See the problem? Everyone should be able to have a chance at each other in PvP. I know blasters who can take me down because I can't touch them because they're far away. If I get close, watch out. But I have to be able to get close and it's something that doesn't always happen. Why we have travel powers. Run away, chase, etc. But to sit there and watch someone with Hurricane use one power, not even their travel power is really being used, it says there's a problem.
Either give stormies more dmg to some powers or something. I had hoped for a Hurricane nerf for some time because in PvP it's overpowered for various reasons. People should have a chance to be able to get through and hit a stormie besides having to use MoG or try to jump on his/her head. No one should have to switch their travel power to SS just to be able to take on Hurricane. PvP will never be balanced unless all our ATs ended up doing the same things and having the same powers.
Do I think that PvE and PvP should allow for powers to work differently whether you're in PvE or PvP, YES. I'm tired of the nerfs I see with the devs trying to say "it's not because of PvP". Please. Spare me the making themselves look even worse lying excuses.. Some powers are overpowered. Sometimes when you nerf one, you make another overpowered. The whole thing is a mess to sort out that's ongoing. Does anyone like being nerfed with a toon they love, no. I feel your pain. In this situation I feel it WAS necessary though. Will I have people name call me and stuff, sure. Whatever. I did it when they rolled into the Scrapper forumn and were laughing at all our nerfs and said it needed to be done. Nerfs happen. And unfortunately, the powers that be can't seem to figure out how to do them without messing with all our favorities powers.
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once again, you're mistaken.
any stormer that ran into battle with only hurricane running wouldn't be very effective at all.
he'd be dead.
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How about against a team of 6 MA scrappers with Super Jump? The stormie would rule. Against 6.. With one power. Of course he wouldn't be attacking them with dmg really, but then what's the point of being in PvP? To serve as a dmgless bowling ball or try to up your rep or get bounty? Many choose the first.
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no, here's what would happen...
one of the scrappers would guy a stun grenade.
and it'd be all over.
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I have yet to buy a stun or web grenade that has worked. Spending 10K on them has always been a waste.
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Why I should care how a set performs in PvP is beyond me.. that's like telling me that it's OK that my computer suddenly crashes all the time because "It's very efficient at heating the room".
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Please understand that you have my full and complete understanding about the annoyance of PvP-driven changes affecting PvE.
However, I'm a little surprised that anyone is taken off guard by this. There have not been any PvP-only power changes in quite some time.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
awesome news i guess the stormies wont be leveling up as fast now.
j/k sorry for your losses, you know they only nerf stuff when people abuse it. blame your fellow controllers. that is all.
Hey, those are all my opinions on that. While they did only specify PvP as the reason for the change, I base those opinions off of what they have done and said in the past, nothing more.
When I say "to assume you know", I didn't mean to imply you specifically, but that neither you or I have any more information on the subject then the other (i might have missed a Red Name post or two though...) and that one can only assume motives beyond what we're told. To say that they could, but didn't, is to assume you know more. I ment nothing more then that.
I wasn't trying to misslead you with anything I've said, but give you what I thought, and why I thought it. I am sorry that it came out that way, it certainly wasn't my intention.
EDIT to Primal: And those dirty PvPers are probably playing mind games... want to divide and conquer us! Or something.