Massive Hurricane nerf
By
aqshy2004,
Posted on: 2006-04-11 24:48 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
You guys can come up with all the PvP rationale you want, but it's still BS. My stormers main defense was taken away and what did he get in return? It has been stated many times that the end redux is marginal at best. I have an end redux enhancement in most powers because I built all my toons with ED before ED was mandated. So what did my toon get in return for his weakened defense?
Numerically, the toHit change should have been a 19% drop in effectiveness. What that means vs. PvE foes sadly is variable with both foe rank and level. However, against the same foes, before and after, it simply means that, whatever Hurricane did to a foe's toHit, it now only does 81% as much.
I think that the change on the repel effect may actually make the toHit change seem worse than it is, since foes can now get in more closely and hit more often. Either that or Hurricane was stacking itself on people with pulses, and now the pulses being less frequent means that no longer occurs.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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i do recall a red-name post in the "issues and concerns with storm summoning" thread (of long ago) informing the community that we shouldn't worry about how our set is performing...storm does very well in pvp (this was during pvp beta).
maybe it's time to ressurect that thread...
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I just went through my PMs read an exchange with Cuppa I had complaining about Hurricane and changing it. I had talked about turning it into a click or doing something to it and Cuppa said she didn't see any changes like that coming to it. Statesman must be having his period and all the toradoes happening around the country made him take his wrath out on stormies. 
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kid, may i ask what you and your team did to try to overcome the unbalancing effects of hurricane in pvp before you complained to cuppa about it?
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The bazillion recommendations that were asking a bit too much:
1) Respec to SS (just to be able to run in try to hit and get propelled back to get a very slim chance to hit stormies). Not..
2) Buy web and stun grenades. (did, wasted Inf, missed every time, no refund was given)
3) Get a blaster on your team (making a team of 8 with one player that can touch the stormie from afar when the other 7 can't touch them fully demonstrates the problem) to attack one stormie
4) Can't use MoG is Siren's Call silly!
No one should have to do 10 things to have to deal with one power that runs continuously and isn't a click. For all those powers that were on all the time and running all the time that helped people stay alive like Phase Shift, Quantum Flight, Instant Healing, and MoG, they were all made clicks from toggles. You can either have Hurricane made a click or have it nerfed in others way. Trust me. You'd be even less happy with a click with a long recharge time.
And that's why I'm not a number cruncher...
I think you might be right, in that the One-Two punch on that might have been too much. Not by a lot (imo), but still just enough to make me pause and adjust.
Stormbringer,
You just spent a fair amount of time saying not much.
--thanks.
I mentioned you need a travel power. That implies clearly that you need the prerequisites. Please don't tell me you need two. I've never once faced a storm user with two, and they all did fine. Super Jump was normally more than sufficient.
--i believe, in competitive pvp, you need 2. superjump goes away with immobs which are easy enough to land in pvp and break mez protection significantly faster than holds do. you'll want something to fall back on when you're jump isn't there. if you're relying on movement as much as you are to apply your debuff, you'll want something like ss too. consider the arena settings with very low ceilings for instance. it's just smarter to have two. a stationary storm is a dead storm. any storm that's serious about pvp will likely have 2 travel powers. or they'll partner with an emp, kin or sonic defender/controller to insure they don't get immobilized. if you're interested in testing this out for yourself, i suggest the handy web grenades on your super jumping solo stormer. he won't be jumping for long. he'll be crawling.
Mez protection is far from required for a Stormie to be effective. I know. Do you know why? Because all of my PvP experience is with characters that have holds, and I made it my mission to disable the Hurricane casters I saw.
--a storm defender is one shot from being useless. a hold, disorient or sleep is all it takes. i don't know what kind of mezzing toon you play, but it's not hard to create the distance you need to launch an unfettered hold. if you can't do it, ask someone on your team to create that distance or to take the shot themselves. one shot. then the storm defender is no longer a problem. he's dead.
Remember that my post was about team tactics. Only very poor teams leave the storm character alone while someone like a Dominator picks on them. Yes, I usually disrupted the stormie. Yes, it had meaning or I wouldn't have kept it up. But it was virtually always suicide for me. It involved sacrificing myself over and over just to nullify that one character for 20 or so seconds.
--next time put your spines scrapper on the storm. or your spines stalker.
Any hero team smarter than a sack of rocks protected the Storm defender. Anyone who could had mez protection cast on them. Anyone who could immediately healed them. Anyone who could immediately tried to kill anyone who threatend the Storm Defender/Controller.
--go for the ones providing the mezz protection first. once they fall, so does half the team. the buffers are where the real powers lies in a good pvp team.
What other character in PvP warrents that kind of attention? What other powerset in play is a huge red flag of "defeat that character or we are screwed?" Can you name one that even comes close to the urgency of Hurricane?
--sonic defender/controllers/corrupters, ff defenders/controllers, empaths, kinetics, ice/nrg blasters (on certain teams) and, if you're a storm guy...spines scrappers or stalkers. seriously, if you're prioritizing the storm above these other sets (and the sets are well-built) you need to question your tactics first. the only reason that storm is alive is because 1) he/she has been granted mez protection and 2) someone is there to heal him/her.
Most Storm characters are far from helpless. Controllers have a wide array of counter mezzes to use on you. Some of the Defender blast sets are very effective against other Squishies in PvP - I can only wish I got the full Psionic Blast set that Defenders do on my Dominator.
--unfortunately most defender blasts suck in pvp. take it from me. i have electric. while i agree, defenders are tot defenseless, they are far from dangerous. at most, a debuffing defender can hope to debilitate one of his teammates for a time, sacrificing his own participation to keep that other toon from being effective. this is what debuffing defenders do. it's all we do. we don't have buffs. we don't have damage. all we do is debuff--because of this we hear a good deal of complaints like yours.
--for controllers it's different. they can be effective because they pose an offensive threat AND they have the ability to defend themselves. they also get mez protection...a limited version of mez protection (if they choose a particular epic). a storm controller still cannot heal him/herself. they still need to move to be effective. they're not without their weaknesses. i can't speak for all 'trollers, but my ice/storm is far from overpowered. on certain teams i would say she can be very effective. on other teams i would say her presence is negligible. on some teams (where i have no outside healing), she is often a target for scrappers, blasters and tanks (albeit well-built tanks).
Again, let me restate what I said in my post. Hurricane was not perfect. Hurricane users were not invincible. However, the singular effect of that power on the battlefield overshadowed everything else. The arrival of no other hero powerset could change the course of events to the degree that Hurricane could. This is why it was changed.
--i beg to differ. i think empathy and kin are a lot more significant in team battles. i would argue that a well-played sonic and ff could be equally as effective as any storm, if not moreso (because of their ability to remove opponants from competition alltogether, without sacrificing themselves).
--i think the nerf to hurricane was a kneejerk response to player complaints that were ill-informed. i think the problem is not with hurricane and how it was performing, but with other aspects of the game (stackable mez protection buffs, for instance). now this is not an easy thing to see in the arena or in a pvp zone. all anyone notices is the big dumb hurricane that keeps pushing them away. so that's what people complatin about.
If you want to see a Hurricane player who could kill you dead as a Squishie, I recommend you look up Blunt on the Justice server. His character was Storm/Psi. And, in fact, he could kill Dominators and Corruptors with tremendous facility. Psi Blast contains some excellent, fast activating blasts that include such wonderful side effects as sleep, disorient and immobilization. Combining this with the knockback effect of Hurricane, the slow and -fly effects of Snowstorm, and Hurricane's lingering toHit debuff, Blunt could catch other squishies, disable them, prevent them from getting up, and kill them at leasure.
--sounds pretty good. i don't know much abou the psi set for defenders. i know for controllers it's devastating.
So understand that appealing to my notion that somehow Hurricane users are helpless targets simply isn't going to carry much weight with me. Do I think they were godly? Certainly not. But they weren't some walking target, just waiting to die.
--on some teams they are.
---but to my point....it takes more than hurricane to make an effecitve build here. it takes reliable, fast movement powers...it takes a formidable offense...and it takes significant mez protection. yes storm can be a formidable set, in some builds and on some teams. it is also far from invincible. it is built on a lot more than just hurricane. and very often, what a good storm summoner is built on is a good team.
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In PvP, almost every other AT uses a lot their powers. Stormies? Most just click on Hurricane and use that and that alone. That right there says it's been overpowered. Instant Healing was overpowered for PvP.
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Can't remember when I've ever killed someone with hurricane. Granted I really never PvP, but last I checked it caused 0 damage, I actually have to use a few other powers if I hope to actually defeat someone. Thats like saying tanks rely on their shields in PvP. Of course they do! But they have to attack to kill stuff. Same with stormies.
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Instant Healing never killed anyone either directly. It helped keep me alive and make me unstoppable. Sort of the purpose Hurricane has. I have to attack to kill things. I don't have range so I have to run up and get in everyone's face. I have to use more then one power to take someone down which includes my actual attacks, Int, and Focus Chi. Hell, I even have to chase after everyone because I can't snipe them being melee.
Most stormies I see in PvP just use Hurricane... They proceed to be the bowling ball against a whole bunch of opponents that surround them but that's all they do is use one power. Thank God we have a blaster amongst us. Otherwise the 7 others on the team would have a problem even touching the Stormie because they're melee. See the problem? Everyone should be able to have a chance at each other in PvP. I know blasters who can take me down because I can't touch them because they're far away. If I get close, watch out. But I have to be able to get close and it's something that doesn't always happen. Why we have travel powers. Run away, chase, etc. But to sit there and watch someone with Hurricane use one power, not even their travel power is really being used, it says there's a problem.
Either give stormies more dmg to some powers or something. I had hoped for a Hurricane nerf for some time because in PvP it's overpowered for various reasons. People should have a chance to be able to get through and hit a stormie besides having to use MoG or try to jump on his/her head. No one should have to switch their travel power to SS just to be able to take on Hurricane. PvP will never be balanced unless all our ATs ended up doing the same things and having the same powers.
Do I think that PvE and PvP should allow for powers to work differently whether you're in PvE or PvP, YES. I'm tired of the nerfs I see with the devs trying to say "it's not because of PvP". Please. Spare me the making themselves look even worse lying excuses.. Some powers are overpowered. Sometimes when you nerf one, you make another overpowered. The whole thing is a mess to sort out that's ongoing. Does anyone like being nerfed with a toon they love, no. I feel your pain. In this situation I feel it WAS necessary though. Will I have people name call me and stuff, sure. Whatever. I did it when they rolled into the Scrapper forumn and were laughing at all our nerfs and said it needed to be done. Nerfs happen. And unfortunately, the powers that be can't seem to figure out how to do them without messing with all our favorities powers.
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once again, you're mistaken.
any stormer that ran into battle with only hurricane running wouldn't be very effective at all.
he'd be dead.
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How about against a team of 6 MA scrappers with Super Jump? The stormie would rule. Against 6.. With one power. Of course he wouldn't be attacking them with dmg really, but then what's the point of being in PvP? To serve as a dmgless bowling ball or try to up your rep or get bounty? Many choose the first.
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no, here's what would happen...
one of the scrappers would guy a stun grenade.
and it'd be all over.
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I have yet to buy a stun or web grenade that has worked. Spending 10K on them has always been a waste.
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ok, if you won't buy temp powers...how 'bout your epic set?
can one of your 6 ma/regens in this imaginary fight with a stormer have a ranged attack or mez?
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i do recall a red-name post in the "issues and concerns with storm summoning" thread (of long ago) informing the community that we shouldn't worry about how our set is performing...storm does very well in pvp (this was during pvp beta).
maybe it's time to ressurect that thread...
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I just went through my PMs read an exchange with Cuppa I had complaining about Hurricane and changing it. I had talked about turning it into a click or doing something to it and Cuppa said she didn't see any changes like that coming to it. Statesman must be having his period and all the toradoes happening around the country made him take his wrath out on stormies.
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kid, may i ask what you and your team did to try to overcome the unbalancing effects of hurricane in pvp before you complained to cuppa about it?
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The bazillion recommendations that were asking a bit too much:
1) Respec to SS (just to be able to run in try to hit and get propelled back to get a very slim chance to hit stormies). Not..
2) Buy web and stun grenades. (did, wasted Inf, missed every time, no refund was given)
3) Get a blaster on your team (making a team of 8 with one player that can touch the stormie from afar when the other 7 can't touch them fully demonstrates the problem) to attack one stormie
4) Can't use MoG is Siren's Call silly!
No one should have to do 10 things to have to deal with one power that runs continuously and isn't a click. For all those powers that were on all the time and running all the time that helped people stay alive like Phase Shift, Quantum Flight, Instant Healing, and MoG, they were all made clicks from toggles. You can either have Hurricane made a click or have it nerfed in others way. Trust me. You'd be even less happy with a click with a long recharge time.
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so...did you try any of these things?
Stormbringer,
I have faced storm summoners with a Mind/Psi dominator, an Ice/Dark corruptor, and a Dark/Dark corruptor. Of the three, I am most pleased with the performance of my Ice/Dark in PvP.
I already mentioned that I could hold the storm summoner. Once at a time. Sometimes that was good enough for someone to bum rush them. Sometimes they died. Sometimes the villains could then drive off the hero force that was using the storm summoner as a team anchor. I've said in every post that I am well aware that Hurricane can be dropped, and I did it just as you describe. Usually I would dive bomb the storm summoner from stealth and mez them as I approached, well outside the Hurricane.
Except, when they have mez protection from an ally. You know, when the Empath is lingering in the Hurricane. Or when there are two empaths, or someone with mez shields using Stimulate. Or even just a ranged support character squatting in the hurricane.
I'm well aware that any Empath on a team is a high priority target because of the longevity they can provide to all their teammates. The problem comes in when you can synergize that priority with a Stormer.
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next time put your spines scrapper on the storm. or your spines stalker.
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Let's see, what other powerset in the game requires lmited, specific powersets to counter it? Hmm. Not coming up with much here. Oh, wait, TP foe! Something that anyone can get and is, despite that, much reviled.
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sonic defender/controllers/corrupters, ff defenders/controllers, empaths, kinetics, ice/nrg blasters (on certain teams) and, if you're a storm guy...spines scrappers or stalkers. seriously, if you're prioritizing the storm above these other sets (and the sets are well-built) you need to question your tactics first.
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You aren't answering my question. Perhaps it was not clear.
Lets say you've got a mix of random heroes and villains. They are relatively evenly matched. Now add any one character to the hero side.
I contend that there is no other powerset in the game that you can add to the heroes that will affect their survivability and will reshape their team dynamic as much as a stormer will (or at least did). The effects of Hurricane on the battlefield are so powerful that any heroes that do not form up on it as the center of any massed action against villains are simply foolish. Correspondingly, the villains must muster a concerted effort to defeat the stormer to counter this. Thus, the appearance of that power on the field of battle completely changes the dynamics of play.
I have seen this many times. I consider it an indisputable fact. Every time Hurricane has appeared in ongoing play where one was not already present, it has single-handedly defined the lines of battle. There is no other power for which I have ever seen this be true.
TP foe comes close, but TP foe is limited by the rate of activation. Unless you count using it to cripple key assets of the opposing team, TP foe has limited ability to affect a full team of people.
Any such power in any game inherently draws attention to itself from people responsible for balance.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Another point is that you seem to be including a lot of Raid or Arena play here. My focus is on Hero vs. Villain PvP, such as we have now in Siren's Call. I rarely see team HvV in places like Warburg, and today, no one in any HvV has access to epic pools.
I find it possible that Hurricane was less powerful in HvH PvP such as in the Arena, if for no other reason than that it would at least be available to both sides. There is nothing even approaching Hurricane's functionality on the villain side of things.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
uberguy, i'm about to leave work (where i like to do most of my posting), but i'm more than happy to continue this discussion with you tomorrow.
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Either way the power is far from useless and is uber in it's own right. I can ask any Storm Defender or Controller right now if there going to respec Hurricane out of there build due to this nerf and they wil say No. It would be like me saying that Unyielding is pointless to take because they added a -5% to Defense and lowered the Mag protection. It's making Mountains out of Mole Hills.
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I think you're wrong.
I AM a storm controller
I WILL respec out of hurricane, the only use I have for hurricane right now is to try and keep meleers away in PvE (I don't do PvP), and that ability has been neutered from the power so, to me, it's useless now.
They claim this was a nerf to prevent corner trapping. I don't agree with it being required. That was hard to do on an alert player to begin with and it trapped the person doing it as well as the one in the corner so was not that useful and therefore not common. It ruins the main advantage of the storm set and storm lacks a lot to gain that advantage. What good is a push power that can't push anyone. It was a great power before against melee and usless against ranged. Now it is still useless against ranged and only fair against melee. You also lose some of the positioning advantage it gave. this is a huge hit to storm defenders and an minor hit to controllers who relied less on the hurricane's advantages. I think this is a badly thought out and unnecessary nerf.
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What good is a push power that can't push anyone.
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To me, it's not a push power (or atleast isn't any more 
). Now it's designed for what it does. It debuffs accuracy and range, with some repel and knockback. It's not useless, though it can no longer do what many people were doing with it: position enemies.
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*Sigh*
Once again the PvPers who refused to think through problems on the battlefield have gone and ruined things for everyone, including those who don't PvP at all or very often. The fact is, good PvPers know how to disable huricane fairly easily. All you have to remember are a few things:
1) Storm Defenders lack mez protection in their powerset. Unless they have another power that grants some or are teamed with people who can give them mez resistance, it can be very easy to hold, stun, sleep, whatever a storm defender.
2) Use travel powers to your advantage. If you have teleport, you can teleport right next to the defender and get off a mez attack before huricane takes effect. Or use superspeed's inertia to get in close.
3) Que your attack before engaging the storm defender. Remember, attacks will remained active ready to go off as soon as you get in range. So you can have a travel power ready, que the attack, get in close, and the mez attack or regular attack will go off on its own, even if you get repelled while it happens. The target only needs to be in range when the attack goes off.
So, there you have it, 3 simple things that can disable a stormie. Part of the challenge of PvP (and the fun if you ask me) is thinking through the challenges presented. It is a common theme that the best PvPers will do this, and that is why they are so strong. Not to say storm summoning's huricane did not need some nerf. The fact is forcing someone against a corner where they can do nothing (not even pop a break free) was a bit extreme and needed to be dealt with, but I think the developers are catering too much to people who just want a win button in PvP.
And why can't the effects of huricane be different in PvP and PvE. If you ask me, I haven't noticed storm being vastly overpowered in the PvE game. People must still think through their actions and I still risk death if I take on more than my powers can handle.
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Ditto, every word of it. So much for the long ago made promise of no more nerfing powers. Each and every powerset and power has it's strengths and weaknesses. It is up to the player to determine how to prevent being pinned. Have someone teleport you out, mezz the stormie, or something. The devs like to talk on and on about using each power or powerset to their strengths. This is a tactical use of hurricane, being played to its strength. Why then, when there are so many ways around it, nerf this power? It's idiocy on the devs part to do this. There was no reason for this nerf. Players simply need to play to their own strengths as well, and use their heads to find ways around certain tactics used by other players. It's the same idiocy used since the beginning of MMO's, instead of making the game harder, they nerf the players. Idiocy. Reverse this and have players use their heads. You just made things a lot less fun for stormies everywhere. Idiocy.
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Either way the power is far from useless and is uber in it's own right. I can ask any Storm Defender or Controller right now if there going to respec Hurricane out of there build due to this nerf and they wil say No. It would be like me saying that Unyielding is pointless to take because they added a -5% to Defense and lowered the Mag protection. It's making Mountains out of Mole Hills.
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I think you're wrong.
I AM a storm controller
I WILL respec out of hurricane, the only use I have for hurricane right now is to try and keep meleers away in PvE (I don't do PvP), and that ability has been neutered from the power so, to me, it's useless now.
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just because you lose your i dont have to really fight ever power doesnt mean its not still useful. im sure you will discover this for yourself. and as for the pvp aspect, its because of abuse that it got nerfed, same as AS one shotting, and placate hidding stalkers from the whole team of heros after oneshotting a squishy.
we (the pvp community) get ourselves nerfed, have you not reallized this yet?
its not the pve people like yourself its the pvp community that keeps taking advantage of specific powers or specific builds that might have ruined your pve experience, for this im sorry.
I too am guilty of oneshotting and escaping, and complaining about superspeeders with Hurricane that can see through my hide+stealth in pvp knocking me into corners and either getting me debt or ganked while unable to defend myself. and because of my lack of ability to deal with them, especially when your dealing with 6 or more at one time, i was upset about them in pvp as well and probably helped to get them toned down.
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So much for the long ago made promise of no more nerfing powers.
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Do you have a link? Proof? Evidance? Anything at all besides your word alone? I ask because I don't think they have ever said that, or anything close to it, and because if they did, I would love to see the quote.
My main has been a stormer since beta. All the time I have been playing this character, I have been made to feel inadequate by blasters, scrappers, tankers, and even controllers. Defenders were "balanced" they said. At least I had some powers which, when my team was in trouble, could be useful in pulling said teams fat out of the fire.
Now my character, after having his defensive powers nerfed, is having yet ANOTHER power nerfed because of the juvies whining in PvP. Wonderful. 
I was never in favor of PvP when they introduced it in this game, and after everything I've read, I'm even less enchanted with it now. I think its time I started my own thread. Lets get PvP out of CoX and back where it belongs.
Anywhere else but here.
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Can't remember when I've ever killed someone with hurricane. Granted I really never PvP, but last I checked it caused 0 damage, I actually have to use a few other powers if I hope to actually defeat someone. That's like saying tanks rely on their shields in PvP. Of course they do! But they have to attack to kill stuff. Same with stormies.
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Instant Healing never killed anyone either directly. It helped keep me alive and make me unstoppable. Sort of the purpose Hurricane has. I have to attack to kill things. I don't have range so I have to run up and get in everyone's face. I have to use more then one power to take someone down which includes my actual attacks, Int, and Focus Chi. Hell, I even have to chase after everyone because I can't snipe them being melee.
Most stormies I see in PvP just use Hurricane... They proceed to be the bowling ball against a whole bunch of opponents that surround them but that's all they do is use one power. Thank God we have a blaster amongst us. Otherwise the 7 others on the team would have a problem even touching the Stormie because they're melee. See the problem? Everyone should be able to have a chance at each other in PvP. I know blasters who can take me down because I can't touch them because they're far away. If I get close, watch out. But I have to be able to get close and it's something that doesn't always happen. Why we have travel powers. Run away, chase, etc. But to sit there and watch someone with Hurricane use one power, not even their travel power is really being used, it says there's a problem.
Either give stormies more dmg to some powers or something. I had hoped for a Hurricane nerf for some time because in PvP it's overpowered for various reasons. People should have a chance to be able to get through and hit a stormie besides having to use MoG or try to jump on his/her head. No one should have to switch their travel power to SS just to be able to take on Hurricane. PvP will never be balanced unless all our ATs ended up doing the same things and having the same powers.
Do I think that PvE and PvP should allow for powers to work differently whether you're in PvE or PvP, YES. I'm tired of the nerfs I see with the devs trying to say "it's not because of PvP". Please. Spare me the making themselves look even worse lying excuses.. Some powers are overpowered. Sometimes when you nerf one, you make another overpowered. The whole thing is a mess to sort out that's ongoing. Does anyone like being nerfed with a toon they love, no. I feel your pain. In this situation I feel it WAS necessary though. Will I have people name call me and stuff, sure. Whatever. I did it when they rolled into the Scrapper forumn and were laughing at all our nerfs and said it needed to be done. Nerfs happen. And unfortunately, the powers that be can't seem to figure out how to do them without messing with all our favorities powers.
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Actually Kid, I kind of agree with you on some of this (I know you're amazed). Look, I knew a hurricane nerf had to be coming at some point, I've been around MMO's too long not to see it. Its not that I felt it was needed but I saw it coming. I feel this may be a bit too strong,l but then again nerfs tend to be (like some of your multitude of regen nerfs).
My problem is dealing with storm defenders, where many people have problems with storm controllers (I have both so I feel I can speak knowingly about them). The Devs really made some problems for themselves with the storm set. Its not a heal set like empathy, and its not a strict debuff set like dark or rad. Its not simply defense through bubbles like FF. Storm is in many ways the jack of all trades master of none set. And a lot of the way it defends is through positioning and controlling the battlefield. Hence why storm controllers tend to be more effective the defenders. This is the fatal flaw of the set and one that players have long recognized.
I've already said I don't really PvP. I've tried it but its never been my thing. I just don't have the time to really get good and in with the good teams to be able to truly compete. But really the storm defender has a massive amount of tools at his disposal when facing an enemy. But Hurricane is the most noticeable. Storm was designed to keep squishies safe from melee. Its why tanks and scrappers have had issues with us since day one and blasters have learned to love us.
So now that this defense is being taken away, what is the role of a stormer? We have slows (snow storm), assuming you stay in range. We have freezing rain to debuff, but once again you have to stand in the effect, which PvE has never done let alone PvP. We have thunder clap and lightning storm to detoggle you. Thunder clap was never used much as its range was less then hurricane, expect to see it more often now (although with detoggle changes who knows). We have gale for positioning, but t has horrible base accuracy. We have O2 which has a reasonable distance heal and can help resist status effects and end drain, but its not enough to keep someone dieing alive (especially for the end cost). We can offer some resists and stealth, but in the age of perception steamy mist doesn't do much for anyone. And finally we have tornado. A wild uncontrollable power that can be very nice, but if the stormer doesn't know how to use it its likely to get them killed instead. So where's this leave us? We had one thing we were really good at, and hence that's what you saw us do. Now we can do a lot, but none of it as well as another defender set.
Wow, this post rambled much more then I intended, my apologies. I guess I'm just voicing some frustrations. As I've said, based on testing my stormers will be fine. I'll adapt and keep moving. I've made stormers since before the game was released. I've been kicked from teams for being a stormer before ever getting to a mission to show what I can do. If that age come back I'm fine with it. I'll be sad because a lot of people will miss out on a great set, but I'll keep rolling along.
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Rain King, 50 ice/storm
Ard, 50 NB/SR
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www.repeat-offenders.net
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So much for the long ago made promise of no more nerfing powers.
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Do you have a link? Proof? Evidance? Anything at all besides your word alone? I ask because I don't think they have ever said that, or anything close to it, and because if they did, I would love to see the quote.
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Honestly, even if there is no direct quote that can be found after board cleanup this is something that was implied time and time again by the developers, and rightly so. Differences between PvP and PvE have long been a source of necessary contention amongst players, where Power X was adequate with one form of gaming and totally game-wrecking in the other. To ask for proof of something that's been an understanding between PvE players and the developers isn't right. You've said yourself that you pretty much take for granted that the developers try to balance out things to the best of their ability, all based upon an assumption.
There is nothing surprising in the other poster's statement on this general understanding.
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I think you're wrong.
I AM a storm controller
I WILL respec out of hurricane, the only use I have for hurricane right now is to try and keep meleers away in PvE (I don't do PvP), and that ability has been neutered from the power so, to me, it's useless now.
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just because you lose your i dont have to really fight ever power doesnt mean its not still useful. im sure you will discover this for yourself. and as for the pvp aspect, its because of abuse that it got nerfed, same as AS one shotting, and placate hidding stalkers from the whole team of heros after oneshotting a squishy.
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In what way is hurricane ever a "I don't have to really fight ever" power in PvE, as the poster posts about his use of it in PVE (since he doesn't PvP)?
If you think fight is running up to someone and kicking them in the face, 5 out all CoH ATs (blasters, controllers, defenders, peacebringers, warshades) have the option of never "really ever" fighting, ever. Maybe you need to revise your definition of "fighting"...
Obviously you have never used hurricane yourself in PvE either, since you don't seem to be cognizant of the fact that it draws a ridiculous amount of aggro from mobs. That's not fighting though?
And not really commenting on the poster I am replying to: comparing hurricane to powers like repel and force bubble is really very erroneous.
In PvE, Repel is a marginal power for a kinetics -- they contribute most to the team with their buffs and end, damage buffs. Force bubble (sadly) for a bubbler is also marginal, their main contribution being the three bubbles. A storm user has no buffs unless you want to count o2 boost. Changing a key, bread-and-butter power is a big deal. Not the end of the world, but you really can't say "hurricane is still better than repel / force bubble".
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There's a slight difference between "balancing to the best of their abilities" and "never going to nerf". My point is that, and that alone.
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There's a slight difference between "balancing to the best of their abilities" and "never going to nerf". My point is that, and that alone.
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Understood. My point is that, according to your own statements, it's all hearsay.
Again, if a change is made for reasons both PvP and PvE, this should be stated rather than changes made to both and only attributed to one. To do otherwise is something I find false.
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But the Kinetic power is a knockback, costs more in Endurance, doesn't do - Range, and doesn't Debuff the Target they touch.
Hurricane IS a Repel (1 of only 3 Powers that have this effect), does - Range, does Debuff, cost's less in Endurance, and does Knockback...
Comparing the Kinetic Repel (which is actually Kncokback not Repel ) and Hurricane your going to come out on the loosing end. Hurricane is so much better it's not even funny. It's still one of the best Toggle powers in the game. It's just not Godly in power but Uber instead.
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tell me how the -acc and -range are going to help me position mobs to lower my scatter? hmm they wont? Well then, i guess for what i was using it for it might just be a major nerf that was completely unecesary. As to you comment about 'enlightening' me, Ive been playing this set for two years, i know what the powers do. I am upset because i have had a major tool of mine decreased significantly, wihtout just cause.
Jay Doherty: Yes, there was this one night that I was ready to go home but had to drop the browns off at the super bowl before I left for home. While on the throne it hit me. I stayed for a few more hours and that why we have the pain pads in the game.
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My point is that, according to your own statements, it's all hearsay.
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Not true... If something is said by a Red Name, you can 99% of the time know it's not hearsay. That's why I asked for the link. Because if it does exist, I'd like to use it myself, maybe put it in my sig...
I belive (and I might be mistaken) that when Devs post, the thread exists for longer then casual forum cleanings, so even long time posts can exist for a while.
Again, I already agree with your second statement.
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I do not say whether or not the To Hit debuffs of Defenders were overpowering and thus in need of rescheduling. I say that the double whammy hurt Storm Summoning more than most and should be addressed.
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That's where I'm personally wishy-washy about right now. I don't know if the hit to Hurricane and the reschedualing of ToHit Debuffs is too strong or not. I've been testing this myself a bit, and so far the ToHit change doesn't seem to be that major (of course, I am running DOs, so I'm not sure... ignore that they're yellow too. It's probably not the best test, to be sure) while the change to hurricane doesn't seem that bad in casual play. I'll have to try some of the more serious stuff I used to do, but for now, it looks to have been adjusted to be a Debuff power, instead of mob placement, almost completely rewriting what people have been using it for.
Like i said, I'm still wishy-washy on it, and i can easily lean to the "it's too much" just as I can to the "it looks okay".