Massive Hurricane nerf
By
aqshy2004,
Posted on: 2006-04-11 24:48 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
The nerf to Hurricane sucks. After I-5 my Fire/Rad controller wasn't much fun anymore, so I rolled an Ill/Storm controller. Illusion control is lousy, but Storm made up for it. A big part of that was Hurricane.
It's deja vu all over again. Except this time I don't think I'll have the motivation to roll yet another char. What's the point, when you have no freakin idea what the char will be like after the next nerf -- I mean issue.
FivefifteenA
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In PvP, almost every other AT uses a lot their powers. Stormies? Most just click on Hurricane and use that and that alone. That right there says it's been overpowered. Instant Healing was overpowered for PvP.
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Can't remember when I've ever killed someone with hurricane. Granted I really never PvP, but last I checked it caused 0 damage, I actually have to use a few other powers if I hope to actually defeat someone. Thats like saying tanks rely on their shields in PvP. Of course they do! But they have to attack to kill stuff. Same with stormies.
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Instant Healing never killed anyone either directly. It helped keep me alive and make me unstoppable. Sort of the purpose Hurricane has. I have to attack to kill things. I don't have range so I have to run up and get in everyone's face. I have to use more then one power to take someone down which includes my actual attacks, Int, and Focus Chi. Hell, I even have to chase after everyone because I can't snipe them being melee.
Most stormies I see in PvP just use Hurricane... They proceed to be the bowling ball against a whole bunch of opponents that surround them but that's all they do is use one power. Thank God we have a blaster amongst us. Otherwise the 7 others on the team would have a problem even touching the Stormie because they're melee. See the problem? Everyone should be able to have a chance at each other in PvP. I know blasters who can take me down because I can't touch them because they're far away. If I get close, watch out. But I have to be able to get close and it's something that doesn't always happen. Why we have travel powers. Run away, chase, etc. But to sit there and watch someone with Hurricane use one power, not even their travel power is really being used, it says there's a problem.
Either give stormies more dmg to some powers or something. I had hoped for a Hurricane nerf for some time because in PvP it's overpowered for various reasons. People should have a chance to be able to get through and hit a stormie besides having to use MoG or try to jump on his/her head. No one should have to switch their travel power to SS just to be able to take on Hurricane. PvP will never be balanced unless all our ATs ended up doing the same things and having the same powers.
Do I think that PvE and PvP should allow for powers to work differently whether you're in PvE or PvP, YES. I'm tired of the nerfs I see with the devs trying to say "it's not because of PvP". Please. Spare me the making themselves look even worse lying excuses.. Some powers are overpowered. Sometimes when you nerf one, you make another overpowered. The whole thing is a mess to sort out that's ongoing. Does anyone like being nerfed with a toon they love, no. I feel your pain. In this situation I feel it WAS necessary though. Will I have people name call me and stuff, sure. Whatever. I did it when they rolled into the Scrapper forumn and were laughing at all our nerfs and said it needed to be done. Nerfs happen. And unfortunately, the powers that be can't seem to figure out how to do them without messing with all our favorities powers.
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once again, you're mistaken.
any stormer that ran into battle with only hurricane running wouldn't be very effective at all.
he'd be dead.
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How about against a team of 6 MA scrappers with Super Jump? The stormie would rule. Against 6.. With one power. Of course he wouldn't be attacking them with dmg really, but then what's the point of being in PvP? To serve as a dmgless bowling ball or try to up your rep or get bounty? Many choose the first.
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no, here's what would happen...
one of the scrappers would guy a stun grenade.
and it'd be all over.
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I have yet to buy a stun or web grenade that has worked. Spending 10K on them has always been a waste.
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ok, if you won't buy temp powers...how 'bout your epic set?
can one of your 6 ma/regens in this imaginary fight with a stormer have a ranged attack or mez?
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You can't use any of your epic powers in Siren's Call or Warburg. Too high. Also, I'm mostly in Siren's Call as my villain. I can't battle my MA/Regen against a stormie because we're both supposed to be good in SC.
please edit your quotes. Theres no need to quote several posts woth, just the last bit.
Jay Doherty: Yes, there was this one night that I was ready to go home but had to drop the browns off at the super bowl before I left for home. While on the throne it hit me. I stayed for a few more hours and that why we have the pain pads in the game.
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What good is a push power that can't push anyone.
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To me, it's not a push power (or atleast isn't any more 
). Now it's designed for what it does. It debuffs accuracy and range, with some repel and knockback. It's not useless, though it can no longer do what many people were doing with it: position enemies.
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Well over a year ago, and long before PvP ... I vigorously defended the Storm set against complaints that it underperformed compared to the other Defender primaries. The basis of my argument was that the sets strength lies in its unique ability to position mobs. Stormbringer and Zapping may remember those discussions. As CommunistPenguin points out a few posts ago, the set is as much about positioning as it is debuffing. If a Storm Defender can't use positioning to counter the sets scatter effects in PvE, then the synergy of the set is lost or at least reduced.
In the realm of powers that 'affect enemies', there's a fine line between Debuffing and Control. Where does/should positioning fall? The original powerset designs don't seem to favor either, as the repel/kb powers are roughly split between Defenders and Controllers. If the devs have decided that positioning should be strictly a Control function, then I would expect to see some significant upheaval in the sets as that decision runs counter to the original design.
I guess what I'm trying to say is ... to me, Hurricane is/should be a push power. The debuffs make it viable to use.
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please edit your quotes. Theres no need to quote several posts woth, just the last bit.
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We're trying to make the screen explode or make something than looks like an Easter egg.... ;-)
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They claim this was a nerf to prevent corner trapping. I don't agree with it being required. That was hard to do on an alert player to begin with and it trapped the person doing it as well as the one in the corner so was not that useful and therefore not common. It ruins the main advantage of the storm set and storm lacks a lot to gain that advantage. What good is a push power that can't push anyone. It was a great power before against melee and usless against ranged. Now it is still useless against ranged and only fair against melee. You also lose some of the positioning advantage it gave. this is a huge hit to storm defenders and an minor hit to controllers who relied less on the hurricane's advantages. I think this is a badly thought out and unnecessary nerf.
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Even if you have "superhuman" reflexes (which serve for nothing here as it's almost a turn-based game), it was easy to get corner trapped in a closed map and made useless. 2 storm defenders on my team make great "corner-trapping" "machines" on instanced SG base raids (we have done several now).
Now there's a slight chance to get out. I think that's fair.
You know what?.....force bubble will get the same treatment somewhere in the future. It's easy to trap someone in closed quarters with those powers.
I've PM'ed Castle on this issue, but it's worth pointing out (again) that Hurricane's repel function always has been much more effective in PvP than it was in PvE. It's not at all unusual for a mob to escape from a Hurricane corner-pin, but a player has almost no chance of getting out unless he was a vertical movement power or Teleport.
That's why I'm so steamed about this issue. The power always behaved differently depending on whether the target was a player or a mob. Now, instead of fixing that disparity, they've simply reduced the effectiveness of the power. That hits the non-PvP Storm user (especially the Storm Defender, who lacks other control options) very hard indeed.
Cheers,
~R~
uberguy...
didn't know were were talking only villains. i'm not as familiar with their sets. my limited experiences with my own lead me to believe they are, overall, underpowered a bit in pvp at least relative to heroes...i attribute this to a number of issues: 1) level 40 level cap, 2) lack of enhancement slots, 3) lack of hami-os, 4) lack of front-loaded damage powers (attributable, in part to a lack of damage-oriented epic powers), 5) lack of support toons playing support roles (bring more corrupters to your fights, guys).
i'm sure there are more reasons for this perceived imbalance (and i do believe the perception is largely accurate). for my part i'd like to see heroes and villains have access to the same power sets eventually. and, yes, that would include storm.
to your points, however...
a storm summoner with mez protection is a potent force in the arena. he/she can do a major number on non-melee based attacks, debuffing their to-hit and their range. if i were playing a villain and wished to avoid this i'd do some/all of the following...
1) create distance and attack from a range outside the influence of the hurricane.
2) attack the source of the storm's mez protection
3) break the storm's mez protection with holds/immobs...once stationary, the storm shouldn't be much of a threat
4) if i were unable to target the source of the storm's mez protection and unable to break the storm's mez protection i would go for slows in an attempt to render the storm useless
5) failing this i would ask one of my major offensive threats to target the storm...corrupters, blasters, scrappers or stalkers work best for this
none of this is probably news to you. as a rule of thumb, if you run into an empath supporting a storm, take out the empath and the storm will crumble soon afterward. neither is much of a threat offensively, unless the storm happens to be a 'troller.
as for my earlier suggestion of putting spines scrapper/stalker on the storm. there are other builds that are effective against storms, i merely suggested that one as the obvious scissors to storms paper. these builds do an exceptional job of immobilizing storms, attacking through their hurricane and turning them into big, hurricane-pancake-shaped targets. they will send the storm running, trust me.
but other builds are effective against storms as well. brutes do well against them. corrupters (if they attack from a distance), masterminds (if they focus their pets on the storm) and yes, even dominators. although i think their damage is a bit low at this stage of the game and they definitely need a buff. a good single-target mez, spammed at a storm from a safe distance, will bring him/her down eventually.
does storm require limited, specific powersets to beat it? not really. unless you consider ranged attacks limited and specific. or mezzes. or brute/tanker/scrapper/stalker/blaster melee attacks.
as for your suggestion that a storm can reshape the batttlefield...i agree in part. a storm can do significant debuffing in certain arenas. but in siren's call or warburg? to be effective the storm needs all his/her opponants clumped together. as a smart villain team leader, have your team spread out a bit. have some folks take to the air. make sure everyone with superjump is hopping around like a fool (or use CJ+3-slotted hurdle+SS for awesome combat movement). the storm will be much less effective if you guys spread out and keep moving.
after that...go back to the basics. remove the team's source of healing and mez protection. then remove the biggest threats...either ice/nrg blasters, spines or broadsword scrappers, or, if you like, the storm. how you remove them depends on what powersets you have available.
i don't agree that a storm can reshape a battle more than any other set, however. a well-supported FF defender/controller/mastermind can negate the effects of a storm while offering his/her team mez protection--these sets can pin mobs into corners as well as any storm and utilize detention field to effectively eliminate one opponant from any battle. a well-played sonic defender/controller/corrupter has access to sonic cages (which can remove opponants for the duration of a contest), clarity (which provides the dreaded mez protection) and sonic armors for his/her entire team. these guys are significant foes as well. there are other sets of significant value in a fight...mind control, empathy, kinetics. all of which have the capacity to help turn the tide.
the assertion that the storm set alone, and hurricane in particular, is the reason the battle turned in the cases you mention is not accurate. it can only be a combination of things...some of which you may have noticed, some of which you may not have noticed. the primary reason players opposing a hurricane-using defender or 'troller notice it si because it debuffs them. the buffs of the empath do not directly affect the empath's opponants. the buffs of the kinetics sets to not directly affect the kinetic defender's oppontant.
so guess what?
no one notices them.
and because no one notices them, no one complains about the.
i suggest, in the case you mentioned above where one set is added to any battle to make the difference in an otherwise even fight, adding an empath or a kin. they will make all the difference in the world. moreso than a storm i think, unless the team is very small.
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In PvP, almost every other AT uses a lot their powers. Stormies? Most just click on Hurricane and use that and that alone. That right there says it's been overpowered. Instant Healing was overpowered for PvP.
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Can't remember when I've ever killed someone with hurricane. Granted I really never PvP, but last I checked it caused 0 damage, I actually have to use a few other powers if I hope to actually defeat someone. Thats like saying tanks rely on their shields in PvP. Of course they do! But they have to attack to kill stuff. Same with stormies.
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Instant Healing never killed anyone either directly. It helped keep me alive and make me unstoppable. Sort of the purpose Hurricane has. I have to attack to kill things. I don't have range so I have to run up and get in everyone's face. I have to use more then one power to take someone down which includes my actual attacks, Int, and Focus Chi. Hell, I even have to chase after everyone because I can't snipe them being melee.
Most stormies I see in PvP just use Hurricane... They proceed to be the bowling ball against a whole bunch of opponents that surround them but that's all they do is use one power. Thank God we have a blaster amongst us. Otherwise the 7 others on the team would have a problem even touching the Stormie because they're melee. See the problem? Everyone should be able to have a chance at each other in PvP. I know blasters who can take me down because I can't touch them because they're far away. If I get close, watch out. But I have to be able to get close and it's something that doesn't always happen. Why we have travel powers. Run away, chase, etc. But to sit there and watch someone with Hurricane use one power, not even their travel power is really being used, it says there's a problem.
Either give stormies more dmg to some powers or something. I had hoped for a Hurricane nerf for some time because in PvP it's overpowered for various reasons. People should have a chance to be able to get through and hit a stormie besides having to use MoG or try to jump on his/her head. No one should have to switch their travel power to SS just to be able to take on Hurricane. PvP will never be balanced unless all our ATs ended up doing the same things and having the same powers.
Do I think that PvE and PvP should allow for powers to work differently whether you're in PvE or PvP, YES. I'm tired of the nerfs I see with the devs trying to say "it's not because of PvP". Please. Spare me the making themselves look even worse lying excuses.. Some powers are overpowered. Sometimes when you nerf one, you make another overpowered. The whole thing is a mess to sort out that's ongoing. Does anyone like being nerfed with a toon they love, no. I feel your pain. In this situation I feel it WAS necessary though. Will I have people name call me and stuff, sure. Whatever. I did it when they rolled into the Scrapper forumn and were laughing at all our nerfs and said it needed to be done. Nerfs happen. And unfortunately, the powers that be can't seem to figure out how to do them without messing with all our favorities powers.
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once again, you're mistaken.
any stormer that ran into battle with only hurricane running wouldn't be very effective at all.
he'd be dead.
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How about against a team of 6 MA scrappers with Super Jump? The stormie would rule. Against 6.. With one power. Of course he wouldn't be attacking them with dmg really, but then what's the point of being in PvP? To serve as a dmgless bowling ball or try to up your rep or get bounty? Many choose the first.
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no, here's what would happen...
one of the scrappers would guy a stun grenade.
and it'd be all over.
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I have yet to buy a stun or web grenade that has worked. Spending 10K on them has always been a waste.
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ok, if you won't buy temp powers...how 'bout your epic set?
can one of your 6 ma/regens in this imaginary fight with a stormer have a ranged attack or mez?
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You can't use any of your epic powers in Siren's Call or Warburg. Too high. Also, I'm mostly in Siren's Call as my villain. I can't battle my MA/Regen against a stormie because we're both supposed to be good in SC.
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oh, we're talking ONLY IN SIREN'S CALL here...
so...no epics.
so...no storms with mez protection.
well then...
did you try using focused chi before launching your stun grenade?
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Why I should care how a set performs in PvP is beyond me.
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It is due to inductive reasoning. If something is abusive against other players, that's an indication that it might also be abusive against mobs.
This inductive step has resulted in a lot of changes to a lot of powers. So when you see or hear that a power is causing a lot of havok in PvP, you should care.
the problem is that hurricane didn't work that well trapping mobs in corners before.
some mobs would jump over you and your hurricane, some mobs would squeak out the sides and get pushed away in the opposite direction, some mobs would just fly away.
and that was what it was like before.
now it just flat out sucks.
The argument has been made again and again and Im simply going to put my foot in to say that I agree with the issue of differing performance of Hurricane between PvP and PvE.
My Controller never found handy corners to shove players into in PvP zones. They were crafty enough to realize they were being shoved around and would run out of my repel range. I certainly never felt particularly invincible. True, if a solo melee class attacked me, I could usually feel safe, but if a team came over to my team, I knew Id be one of the first casualties. Were hardly invincible.
Ive not participated in a base raid, so I suspect this is really where the issue comes up. Confined quarters lend themselves well to a Stormie. I cant wait to hear that Forcefields are going to take the next hit. After all, its another set that isnt particularly beloved. If use is found for some of those more situational powers, I suspect something must be done.
In PvE, mobs were always finding ways to escape my corner trap. I loved being able to position the baddies, pretty much the only real use Ive found for Hurricane as my Controller. Far more than my toon, however, its going to be the Defenders that suffer for this. I dont agree that a set that seems largely based around either chaos or control should be penalized for doing their job correctly.
Frankly, Id rather have seen the debuff lose effectiveness, so long as it meant I could keep the strength of my repel. Its what I and many others used it for.
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Pinnacle ~Carl and Sons/The Establishment
Khenti Lvl 15 Warshade
AkenAmenti Lvl 20 Necromancy/Dark Mastermind
Crey Cryostorm Lvl 50 Ice/Storm/Ice Controller
Hound of Belial Lvl 40 Fire/Kinetic Corruptor
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, Strombringer.
I like SC because it has a purpose, and most of the really powerful melee survival powers aren't available (IH for /Regen being an obvious and well-noted exception). There's a goal on two fronts. Win the zone, and get bounty. Most other actual PvP holds little interest for me. I go to Warburg to get nukes. The fact that I sometimes have to fight other players there is just something that I have to deal with, not something I seek out. I dislike Bloody Bay with a passion, because I dislike the power level of characters at level 15.
My assessment is based on having been in SC against many sorts of heroes. Some have worked well as teams (even if they weren't literally all on the same team). Some have been more random. Same with the villains.
Healers and buffers of all sorts are always a priority target, as are any control characters. They add a great deal to their team and, compared to melee characters, are easy to kill.
I've fought heroes plenty with no storm summoner around. I've also fought them plenty with one around. I've fought as a hero with no storm summoner. I've fought as a hero with one around. In my experience, the differences are night and day.
Yes, if you have a bubbler (either variety), it behooves mez-vulnerable and perhaps low HP characters to loiter in things like Dispersion Bubble. It's rarely worth keeping the melee characters bunched up in there too. I've never seen an overriding notion that, when things get tough, you can retreat to a Dispersion Bubble and expect it to provide the defensive boost you need to regroup.
On the other hand, Hurricane did do that. Everyone would form up on the Hurricane, knowing full well that no one much could bother them in there. You get an empath or other mez-prot/heal spammer and a stormie and you surround them with melees, and suddenly you've got the CoX equivalent of a shield wall. You've got a formation that can advance into some of the most withering attacks of a massed villain team and achieve success. Not always. Not every time. But with more consistency and more likelyhood of success than any other single power I have seen available in Siren's Call.
When I was on the hero side, I did it too. I was usually in there with a Blaster. I would rush out from the Hurricane, strike foes, and retreat to it. It was like having a forward base to strike from.
That's all I'm saying. Anything that stands on its own as a singular power that is a consistent contributer to success is going to get "balance" attention from the devs in any game. Yeah, you can point to healing and other debuffs and control powers. But lots of people have those, on both sides of any PvP conflict. Hurricane stood on its own as a unique and powerful tool. Possibly too unique and too powerful
If it had been available to both heroes and villains, maybe, just maybe, it would have been less likely to be targeted, but I don't think I would have betted on it.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Let's see, what other powerset in the game requires lmited, specific powersets to counter it? Hmm. Not coming up with much here. Oh, wait, TP foe! Something that anyone can get and is, despite that, much reviled.
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All of the stalker ones? People take power choices, like leadership, that they don't otherwise want just for the perception. Focussed acc is a decent power, but with +perception, it makes the other epics fairly irrelevant for pvp.
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sonic defender/controllers/corrupters, ff defenders/controllers, empaths, kinetics, ice/nrg blasters (on certain teams) and, if you're a storm guy...spines scrappers or stalkers. seriously, if you're prioritizing the storm above these other sets (and the sets are well-built) you need to question your tactics first.
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You aren't answering my question. Perhaps it was not clear.
Lets say you've got a mix of random heroes and villains. They are relatively evenly matched. Now add any one character to the hero side.
I contend that there is no other powerset in the game that you can add to the heroes that will affect their survivability and will reshape their team dynamic as much as a stormer will (or at least did). The effects of Hurricane on the battlefield are so powerful that any heroes that do not form up on it as the center of any massed action against villains are simply foolish. Correspondingly, the villains must muster a concerted effort to defeat the stormer to counter this. Thus, the appearance of that power on the field of battle completely changes the dynamics of play.
I have seen this many times. I consider it an indisputable fact. Every time Hurricane has appeared in ongoing play where one was not already present, it has single-handedly defined the lines of battle. There is no other power for which I have ever seen this be true.
-snip-
Any such power in any game inherently draws attention to itself from people responsible for balance.
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I'm not going to answer the question 100% in your terms. But nearly everytime I've been in pvp, the tactics, the battle, the whole thing, has been distorted into a game of how to deal with the stalkers. People are generally hiding in the hurricane to keep away from the stalkers.
I can't say what adding hide and assassination does to the battlefield, because to introduce it, it would need to go away first.
What is amusing, is that we hear from castle how stalkers dominate SC. So they get a trivial nerf, and stormers, who are the biggest nuisance for stalkers, and sadly brutes, get a big fat nerf for pvp and pve.
DOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!
Always wanted to post that. lol. 
Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper
Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."
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it might also be abusive against mobs.
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Heh, this struck me as amusing. You know, I'm sure there are plenty of complaints over at the Enemy Forums about all kinds of things, but I'm not so sure we should start listening to them. They're naturally prejudiced.
Besides, whatever sick [censored] of a dev decided to give them KO Blow, cancels out all their allegations of abuse.
(Yes, I know what you meant, but it does sound funny to ask us to consider how the mobs feel.)
On the other hand, Hurricane did do that. Everyone would form up on the Hurricane, knowing full well that no one much could bother them in there. You get an empath or other mez-prot/heal spammer and a stormie and you surround them with melees, and suddenly you've got the CoX equivalent of a shield wall. You've got a formation that can advance into some of the most withering attacks of a massed villain team and achieve success. Not always. Not every time. But with more consistency and more likelyhood of success than any other single power I have seen available in Siren's Call.
--the point i wish to make is that hurricane only provides part of the protection you mention above...it provides melee protection from SOME classes--essentially, those without repel resists. that's SOME MELEE. not all. some.
--hurricane, in the situation you mention above, is not doing anything to debuff ranged attacks unless the ranged attackers are (foolishly) hurling themselves headlong into the hurricane and lobbing off an attack as they do so.
--hurricnane is providing no mez protection in the situation you mention above. that has to come from somewhere else.
--hurricane is not providing any anti-tp protection either.
--the defender/controller using hurricane is not keeping his/her teammates healed by using hurricane.
SO...
it is NOT THE CASE that "no one much could bother them there" in the hurricane simply because of the hurricane. if no one could bother a team in that formation it is because of the composition of the team, the synergy between various (storm, empathy, kin and melee) sets, the tactics employed by the hero team and the various degrees of skill of each of the players.
the situation you describe above is not one of a single power unbalancing the game, it is one where a well-organized team is supporting each other and compensating for each others' weaknesses.
this is not exploitative.
this is pvp.
Perfect summary, Storm.
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it is NOT THE CASE that "no one much could bother them there" in the hurricane simply because of the hurricane. if no one could bother a team in that formation it is because of the composition of the team, the synergy between various (storm, empathy, kin and melee) sets, the tactics employed by the hero team and the various degrees of skill of each of the players.
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How conveniently you ignore the debuff. A debuff that can reliably drop a Brute with Rage running to a 25% toHit chance. (Less now, of course.)
Again and again, I have agreed that Hurricane has weaknesses. You keep pointing to them as though there very existance balanced out Hurricane's strengths. I feel they did not. There was one reliable way to defeat Hurricane. Attack the caster from range. This is what I did to counter storm characters. You're not telling me anything I don't know.
Most attack powers have a maximum range of 80'. Sniper shots more like 100-120', depending on powerset. More powerful ranged attacks and some sets mez powers tend to have shorter ranges.
Sometimes I held them. Heck, sometimes I held them over and over, running out and deliberately making opening s for the villains to try and kill the stormer. Usually I was pig-piled by the stormie's allies when I did this, meaning the stormie was free to act again, worst case, after the duration of my hold. If someone else didn't kill them by then, the first thing to go up was always Hurricane. You act like the very fact that they can be held and damaged at range is enough to ensure their cancellation. It's not. It depends on a lot of factors. And if you can't line up those factors, the stormie is right back in action again.
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the situation you describe above is not one of a single power unbalancing the game, it is one where a well-organized team is supporting each other and compensating for each others' weaknesses.
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Do you think that team tactics are absent in the absence of a stormie? That people don't cover up for one another unless they've got a Hurricane on their side? I've seen excellent teams in operation without one. My very point is that, without Hurricane, even well organized, clearly communicating teams were vastly more vulnerable without Hurricane in the mix. Hurricane added a disproportionate benefit to any team, whether they had their heads on straight or not.
Edited to say some things with less hyperbole.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Hurricane provided all of these things.
*) A significant toHit debuff. Given the base toHit of PvP is 50%, and toHit debuffs are subtracted from this base before accuracy is counted, this is a very powerful tool. Hit rates plummet in a Hurricane.
*) The debuff from Hurricane lasts 10 seconds after last application. A smart storm summoner uses this to advantage. When threatening foes approach, a smart stormer would charge them, attempting to joust them with the toHit debuff. For Super Jumping stormers, this is very effective.
*) The repel effect. This is somewhat useful for tormenting squishies you could trap in the Hurricane, but primarily I suspect the biggest benefit of this was to interfere with Stalkers' Assassin strike.
In other words, in Siren's Call PvP, the biggest benefits of Hurricane were the debuff, the debuff's duration (still broken, IMO), and the protection from AS.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
How conveniently you ignore the debuff. A debuff that can reliably drop a Brute with Rage running to a 25% toHit chance. (Less now, of course.)
--and how conveniently you forget the potpouri of to-hit goodies available to your poor brute including but not limited to any to-hit buffs available to the brute like build up, soul drain, or rage, you also forget any team buffs, any defense debuffs, any yellows the brute might keep on his person...
--if hero builder numbers are to be believed, your rage (when properly slotted) provides you with a 78.69% to-hit bonus. this, coupled with 2 accuracies in your attack granst you a base to-hit in pvp of 214%.
--there is no way in hell hurricane (by itself) debuffs that to 25%.
--and there's no way hurricane is more effective now (after the pre-i7 patch) than it was before. if you'll recall, along with it's repel, hurricanes to-hit debuffs have been reduced in effectiveness as well.
Again and again, I have agreed that Hurricane has weaknesses. You keep pointing to them as though there very existance balanced out Hurricane's strengths. I feel they did not. There was one way to defeat Hurricane. Attack the caster from range. This is what I did to counter storm characters. You're not telling me anything I don't know.
--apparently i am. over and over i tell you ways to overcome hurricane, yet you appear convinced there is only one. here they are again: 1) ranged damage, 2) ranged mezzes, 3) melee with to-hit buffs, 4) slows, 5) kill the mez protection, 6) tp the mez protection away, 7) detention field, 8) sonic cage, 9) TK, 10) force bubble or whatever it's called. hell there are probably more that i can't think of off the top of my head...BUT THERE IS DEFINITELY MORE THAN ONE WAY TO BRING DOWN A STORM!!!
Sometimes I held them. Heck, sometimes I held them over and over, running out and deliberately making opening s for the villains to try and kill the stormer. Usually I was pig-piled by the stormie's allies when I did this, meaning the stormie was free to act again, worst case, after the duration of my hold. If someone else didn't kill them by then, the first thing to go up was always Hurricane. You act like the very fact that they can be held and damaged at range is enough to ensure their cancellation. It's not. It depends on a lot of factors. And if you can't line up those factors, the stormie is right back in action again.
--recharge time on hurricane is 10 seconds. if your team of villains is not coordinated enough or balanced enough to kill a squishy in 10 seconds without his primary defensive power running, then i don't think your problem is with hurricane.
Do you think that team tactics are absent in the absence of a stormie? That people don't cover up for one another unless they've got a Hurricane on their side? I've seen excellent teams in operation without one. My very point is that, without Hurricane, even well organized, clearly communicating teams were vastly more vulnerable without Hurricane in the mix. Hurricane added a disproportionate benefit to any team, whether they had their heads on straight or not.
--see above response. i suggest calling out targets. when you've got one mezzed, let your teammates know and attack that hero. i recommend ventrillo or teamspeak to make this easier.
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(Yes, I know what you meant, but it does sound funny to ask us to consider how the mobs feel.)
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I'll tell you right now. I've been to the NPC Forums, and frankly, they're all up in arms about how unfair it is for them. Most of their powers are dumbed down versions of ours, and they only have a few unique ones of their own. And don't forget the incredible HP difference. NPCs are so much more squishier then the squishiest squishy that ever squished. Of course that's a general statement, but you should hear the Minions talking about how unfair AVs and GMs are, and how they need to be nerfed into place. And the AVs piss and moan about how that AV to EB patch totally screwed up their character concept.
Though the Giant Monsters are still loving the buff they got oh so long ago that always keeps them purple, there are still those who complain because now a level 1 can be just as effective as the level 50. I personally think that's whine, because the level 50 has so much more to handle the GMs with, while the Level 1 can, in effect, get stepped on.
And you don't even WANT to hear about what the NPCs think of the fact that they can't get the Believer badge anymore. I swear, the moment that came down the pipeline, it was like an uproar.
So please, people... Think of the NPCs.
I stopped PvPing with my Stormer as soon as I started getting TP'd into the middle of villain teams about 10 minutes after entering the zones. TP. BAM, hit from all sides before Hurricane can do anything. Hehe, sometimes I would SS away only for the queued attacks to drop me in mid run. Was funny first few times, but got old quick.
There will always be something to cry about and I will find it interesting to see how Stormers fare in Grandville once everyone has access to epics and melee-types get a ranged attack.
These constant changes are the reason I PvP little as I'm tired of the crying and moaning of people that want an "I win" button. Where was all this crying of Hurricane being overpowered in PvE?
I will go out on a limb and say this is a purely PvP problem yet it will now affect my PvE gameplay and that is unacceptable. Now I may add myself to the growing minority list of players saying "Thank god I already got my [insert AT] to level 50" list.
Having finally picked up CoV, I can still enjoy PvE in blissful ignorance as I discover new zones, stories, villains and graphics so I can leave the hodgepodge gameplay of CoH behind.
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I seriously think the devs should elaborate a little more on why it was nerf'd. From what I can see it appears that Hurricane was infact operating outside of what it was intended to do and was simply highlighted by PvP. Assuming it was altered for PvE due to PvP issues isn't a fair assumption since the devs are not in the habit of lying and said this wouldn't happen if they could help it.
As such I suspect the change was because Storm Control is a (de)buff set and having an AoE control power was outside of its normal purpose. You have to admit, the -range, knockback and -acc was secondary to the repel itself. So in sense, the debuff aspect was taking a back seat to the control aspect.
That simply seems wrong for a debuff powerset. I don't think the power has been made less valuable at all, its simply changed purpose. I have two stormies and one is going to benefit alot from this change, it used to be annoying being unable to use Ice Slick with Hurricane as it would instantly force them off of the ice. Now its possible to benefit from the -acc debuff and keep them on the ice for longer as well.
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so basically your saying that your controller will be fine
...
Lets run through the powers shall we?
Gale: mob positioning/damage
02: buff/heal
Snowstorm: control(by the devs own decision)
fr: control/debuff/damage
hurricanne: debuff/mob positioining
thunderclap: control
Tornado: control/damage
Lightning cloud: damage/positioning
If you actually look at the storm set, theres two actual debuff powers in it, thats all. Hurricanne and freezing rain. The fact is the set IS based around mob positioning. NOT debuffs. So this change makes no sense by that theory.
Jay Doherty: Yes, there was this one night that I was ready to go home but had to drop the browns off at the super bowl before I left for home. While on the throne it hit me. I stayed for a few more hours and that why we have the pain pads in the game.