Massive Hurricane nerf
By
aqshy2004,
Posted on: 2006-04-11 24:48 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
This seems like a good time to chime in with a couple of PM's I received from _Castle_.
On why the power was more effective against players than it was against mobs:
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Well, the AI cheated. That's how it was able to escape. Basically, when it gets into a spot where it can't move, it cheats until it is in an open area again (roughly -- there are a bunch of variables in it, so it doesn't always happen.)
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So basically, the AI won't let itself be trapped, probably to stop mobs getting hung up on terrain. AI can be pretty thick sometimes.
On whether there's any fix in the works to make the power behave in a more similar manner in PvE and PvP:
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No promises, but I've spent today looking for alternative fixes. Nothing that worked, mind you...but I am looking.
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So yes, they know they've hit the PvE game hard and are looking for ways to sort that out. No, they haven't found one yet - but at least they're looking at it.
Cheers,
~R~
why cant they just give d players a short repel immunity, like they do with kb and holds? that way they can leave teh repel the same as it was, and players would no longer be able to trap other players.
Jay Doherty: Yes, there was this one night that I was ready to go home but had to drop the browns off at the super bowl before I left for home. While on the throne it hit me. I stayed for a few more hours and that why we have the pain pads in the game.
Heh. That seems like such an obvious solution.
(Really. I'm not being sarcastic.)
I won't be surprised, though, if the repel thing wasn't the complete reason for the change. Without trying to make this a dig, we seem to get partial info about the reasons for these things much more often than not.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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PvE repel is exactly the same strength as before. Yes, it ticks more slowly, which is a double edged sword -- it costs you less endurance to maintain, but it's not quite as good defensively.
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Okay, first of all, this is entirely false. Let's try a thought experiment. Take (for example) the Fire Blast powerset. Now, decrease all damage its powers deal by a factor of 10. To "compensate", decrease all of its endurance costs by a factor of 10. Is it still "exactly the same strength as before"? No. Of course not. By the same argument, _Castle_ could say taking the power away was "exactly the same strength as before": it's zero times the power, and zero times the endurance cost. The fact is that Hurricane was cut in power - gutted, even. It's not a "tradeoff", it's just much weaker.
And the patch notes were misleading. I'm not happy with that either.
I tried using Hurricane tonight in the "stop 30 Fir Bolgs from entering the Door" mission. Several white-con minions just walked right by me, untouched by my constantly-on Hurricane. Others got far enough that by the time it pushed them, they were on the other side of me and it pushed them toward their goal. The repel tick is simply no longer fast enough to do what it's meant to. I appreciate that Hurricane also has range and accuracy debuffs... but I'm not playing a debuff powerset. I play slows and knockbacks for a reason: positional control. Please, restore Hurricane for PvE.
I team with the Repeat Offenders.
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If I concede for a moment that this power is theoretically unbalanced for PvP, can someone explain to me why that warrants a nerf that affects PvE?
I'm not trying to be snarky (at least not overly so), but PvP isn't the major thrust or the major draw for this game anyway. The majority of players are still primarily PvE players. The majority of Stormies are still primarily PvE players. And for a lot of people who picked the Storm set, at least from the Defender side, positioning-especially with Hurricane- was THE reason to take the set.
So their fun gets nerfed in the name of PvP balance? One of the primary reasons people reacted so strongly when PvP first entered the game was fear of PvE nerfs for PvP balance. And here we are, and it's not just a nerf of a power-it's a nerf of the reason people took the set.
I honestly think that the game over all is more healthy letting the PvP side game go somewhat unbalanced, rather than hurting the primary PvE game in an attempt to balance PvP. Just my opinion.
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I agree that there needs to be changes to the PvP version of a power, but not ALWAYS necessarily to the PvE version of a power. What would help the devs cause in making these changes would to be a little HONEST about why they are being made. We're talking powers that have been around for 2 years and NOW they're like they're too overpowered for PvE???? It's because of PvP and I've grown bored and tired of outright lies. Maybe if the devs thought about ways to make things more challenging then giving into people complaining mobs are too hard, nerfing them and then making powers overpowered because of nerfs to mobs, then the wouldn't have to nerf our powers too much. That said though, in PvP, Hurricane is/was overpowered.. 
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What would help the devs cause in making these changes would to be a little HONEST about why they are being made. We're talking powers that have been around for 2 years and NOW they're like they're too overpowered for PvE???? It's because of PvP and I've grown bored and tired of outright lies.
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I totally agree with this. I am sick of the lies about why powers are getting nerfed.
The devs made a promise that PvE changes would not be made solely for PvP.
They are breaking that promise with this hurricane nerf.
They are lying about it.
That really, really, really, pisses me off.
I guess all their promise meant was that they would never *admit* that they were making a change solely for PvP.
This is such a blatant lie that it is insulting to our intelligence. Do they actually expect us to swallow the lie that Storm has suddenly become overpowered for PvE?
Devs -- it's the *lies* that piss people off so bad. Think about it.
FivefifteenA
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Okay, first of all, this is entirely false.
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That's not the same thing, Yeti. The Repel effect, while pulsing at a slower timer, still pushes back enemies at EXACTLY the same rate as before, just not as continuous because it pulses slower.
The Repel effect of Hurricane IS the same strength. You think that Castle said the power is exactly the same strength. That's not it at all. Castle stated that the Repel is the same, though it ticks more slowly.
I don't have any issue with everything else you said, but calling Castle a lier because you didn't understand what he said, just rubs me the wrong way.
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The devs made a promise that PvE changes would not be made solely for PvP.
They are breaking that promise with this hurricane nerf.
They are lying about it.
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I love it when people put words into the Dev's mouths, just so they can call them liers. Yeah, you lying liers and the lies they tell! The Devs said they would try to not do it. They said if they could avoid doing it, they would.
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What would help the devs cause in making these changes would to be a little HONEST about why they are being made. We're talking powers that have been around for 2 years and NOW they're like they're too overpowered for PvE???? It's because of PvP and I've grown bored and tired of outright lies.
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I totally agree with this. I am sick of the lies about why powers are getting nerfed.
The devs made a promise that PvE changes would not be made solely for PvP.
They are breaking that promise with this hurricane nerf.
They are lying about it.
That really, really, really, pisses me off.
I guess all their promise meant was that they would never *admit* that they were making a change solely for PvP.
This is such a blatant lie that it is insulting to our intelligence. Do they actually expect us to swallow the lie that Storm has suddenly become overpowered for PvE?
Devs -- it's the *lies* that piss people off so bad. Think about it.
FivefifteenA
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Actually, the quote everyone is referring to when they say "no PvE nerfs for PvP" is Here , unless I'm mistaken. States didn't say they never would nerf PvE for PvP, he said they'd TRY not to.
Big difference.
What I'm saying, though, is that I really think in cases like this one where the PvE nerf is significant they SHOULDN'T touch PvE to protect PvP.
Well, I didn't see any post from the devs saying, "hey, we tried to come up with a way to nerf this power for PvP that would not affect PvE, and we couldn't, so we are nerfing the power for PvE too -- sorry about it, we know that Storm is already a very well-balanced set for PvE, but we think PvP is more important so just deal with it." At least that would have been honest.
But no -- what they said in the patch notes did not even *mention* PvE. It was like they thought they could slide that past us without us even noticing or something. That's just frikkin dishonest.
On a broader note, have all of these nerfs and game changes that were made for PvP really helped with the subscription base of the game? No one knows for sure, but it seems likely to me that any boost in the numbers playing the game has been from CoV, not PvP. When I go to the PvP zones to run missions there are usually less than a dozen people there, and usually almost all of those people are in missions.
FivefifteenA
This power did not require a pvp nerf even. It was good but far from overwhelming. It does not even rank in the top ten pvp powers. There are several powers that negate it already and dozens of ways to just avoid it. the range and accuracy debuffs were almost meaningless. anyone close enough to get hit with it did not need the range anyway and a couple yellows overcomethe debuff with room to spare. Not to metion these power does not belong toa high defense set. Most PVPer can hit right through it because the accuracy is so high to hit the well defended. The push is the main benefit. If they break it why bother. the power is part of a whole set and without it storm is under powered for defenders.
If CoH and CoV were closer in the way that they worked, aka: if villains had something resembling a blaster, then no hurricane wouldnt have needed a nerf. But as someone in here stated already Pre-nerf hurricane was a power with which you could almost certainly negate any melee person from ever hitting you.
Now I know that you will come back and say "Oh, but you can buy insp!" I highly doubt that the developers of this game meant to balance the game on inspiration alone. They want to give each AT the tools with which they needs to equalize the threat of another.
Now I dont have experience with this power in PvE so I cannot speak for those of you that are upset about its change in that realm, but I can say for sure that this was indeed needed for PvP.
Maybe its about time that the DeV's realize that there needs to be perhaps that powers literally revert to a different form when zoning into a pvp zone or arena match. If they could figure out a way to code it then perhaps we wouldnt need to ever sacrifice PvE for PvP.
But in this case Hurricane was so WIDELY misused that it got hit with the nerf bat. But I can tell you from a villain perspective what hasnt changed: stalkers still whiff on you, so you dont have to deal with that whole problem (unless you get mezzed) and it is still extremely difficult to hit you through that hurricane. We may get one through but the next will surely miss, hence we cant do enough damage to kill you, just enough to make you run off.
Now compared to before when you could let heroes camp inside hurricane thus giving every single AT the same benefit as you have, thus making the entire grp extremely hard to hit without any kind of negative associated with it, now you just have to learn to play smarter, such as every stalker has to play smarter now that placate is changed.
Theres a pattern to this whole nerf thing:
Excition - "omg this power is t3h ub4r!"
2
Misuse - "Haha you cant touch me n00b!"
2
Whine - "blah blah, he kills me all the time.... blah"
2
Nerf - "ZOmg what did we do?"
the cycle goes on further, but perhaps if people didnt abuse powers in the first place the dev's wouldnt have to go through and change things so much. Part of it is the fact that this game is a PvE game thatis trying to PvP - thus changes need to be made, the other part is quite simply the players fault (not everyone, but you know who you are).
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That's not the same thing, Yeti. The Repel effect, while pulsing at a slower timer, still pushes back enemies at EXACTLY the same rate as before, just not as continuous because it pulses slower.
The Repel effect of Hurricane IS the same strength. You think that Castle said the power is exactly the same strength. That's not it at all. Castle stated that the Repel is the same, though it ticks more slowly.
I don't have any issue with everything else you said, but calling Castle a lier because you didn't understand what he said, just rubs me the wrong way.
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First of all, I didn't think Castle was a liar, I thought he was gravely mistaken. I have yet to see a case of the developers lying to us, whatever anyone else might say. I think they just get caught up in a release schedule and don't give everything due thought.
Second, it's their job to post diligently as red-names. That includes making themselves understood through clear, unambiguous statements. I see now that there was an alternate interpretation of Castle's statement that makes more sense - but it's not my job to go digging for it. I'm going to react to what's said, and if I misinterpret someone (like you) can clear it up later. Besides, you don't know for sure which way Castle meant it. I might still be right.
I team with the Repeat Offenders.
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The devs made a promise that PvE changes would not be made solely for PvP.
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You'd love it if that were true. The developers have a job to do. They do it the best they can. They tell is the guiding principles they're using, then go ahead and do what they have to do. If you read every explanation of "probably, we expect that mostly..." as a writ-in-stone promise, you're going to be disappointed. Not just with the CoH devs, but with most of life.
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I guess all their promise meant was that they would never *admit* that they were making a change solely for PvP.
This is such a blatant lie that it is insulting to our intelligence. Do they actually expect us to swallow the lie that Storm has suddenly become overpowered for PvE?
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Actually, the patch notes say explicitly that this change was solely for PvP. It doesn't say that the change carries over to PvE... but it doesn't say it doesn't, all it says is the power changed. Since the power exists in PvE, we shouldn't be surprised that changing the power changes PvE. Furthermore, we have no idea how hard it would be for the devs to change Hurricane in PvP and not in PvE. That might be a lot of code. Would you rather have the developers put off all power fixes for several months while they code a new PvP/PvE distinction in their powers? Or have them make a few changes like this so massive bugs and exploits can be fixed?
The developers do a LOT for us. Try to recognize that there are tradeoffs in everything they do, and give them at least the slightest benefit of the doubt once in a while.
I team with the Repeat Offenders.
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the cycle goes on further, but perhaps if people didnt abuse powers in the first place the dev's wouldnt have to go through and change things so much. Part of it is the fact that this game is a PvE game thatis trying to PvP - thus changes need to be made, the other part is quite simply the players fault (not everyone, but you know who you are).
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This is partly what ticks off the long term Stormers, the ones who've played the set since release, who have suffered through the difficulties in finding teams because "Storm causes scatter" or "Storm isn't a good healer" or "Storm doesn't have a rez" or "Storm doesn't have any good buffs". Then PvP comes along, suddenly you're perceived as a FOTM PvP min-maxer, then they nerf your set.
There have been plenty of other nerfs in this game which were blamed on PvP, but which were actually pretty ambiguous. This one, IMO anyway, isn't. If CoH was still PvE-only, I don't think Hurricane would have been changed, nor would everyone be whining about how overpowered it is. They didn't start doing that until the arena came along.
Cheers,
~R~
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Actually, the patch notes say explicitly that this change was solely for PvP. It doesn't say that the change carries over to PvE... but it doesn't say it doesn't, all it says is the power changed.
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Ummm -- the patch notes are supposed to tell us what the patch does. The patch notes in this case did not say a single freaking thing about Hurricane having its guts ripped out in PvE play. Is that honest? No. Is it straightforward? No.
I don't think you get it. The devs just ripped the heart out of a nice little set that was actually a bit on the gimped side for PvE but lots of people liked it because it was so fun. Now, because of PvP, which hardly anyone plays anyway, the Storm set has been pretty much destroyed. And the devs did not even have the honesty to put it in the patch notes !!!!!
Thanks, devs.
FivefifteenA
When you're done, can I have your stuff?
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When you're done, can I have your stuff?
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Sure fanboy.
Y'know, the people who say that remind of me of little kids who hear a joke that isn't funny, but they think it is and they repeat it over and over until all the adults around are ready to strangle them. I guess that's the point.
Toddle off, little one.
FivefifteenA
*shrugs* Actually, it's because I find you have NOTHING to contribute, other then a basic BMW post. It really gets to the point where I see your name, and I know that what follows is basically nothing but insults, hyperbole, and the general inability (or lack of desire) to be helpful to your cause.
Basically, what I'm saying is you remind me of a spoiled child.
So toddle off, little one.
Basically, I've just contributed with exactly the same amount of information and "good posting" that you did with the last post. Generally, if you find yourself just attacking people with your posts, you're not exactly doing anything helpful. Even if our opinions differ, there are better ways to share it then with such gratuitous insults, you know?
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When you're done, can I have your stuff?
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Nah I'm just respeccing out of the power, not dropping the character
Oh I dunno, the power is still useful as a Debuffer. It's still saved my life more then a few times.
Besides, I personally am going to hope they find a way to "fix" it for PvE. 
I'm an optimist! If nothing else, I would probably recommend holding onto it (and the Freespec). Atleast for a while, perhaps until a Red Name conferms there's nothing else that can be done for it (through PM to _Castle_ if needed).
so i tested it out, and while the power istn completely gutted, i found that the less repel was more likely to create scatter than the old repel. Basically the old repel was strong, so they all went in one direction more or less. THe new repel is weak, so some get pushed, some dont, some run at you, some dont, etc.
Jay Doherty: Yes, there was this one night that I was ready to go home but had to drop the browns off at the super bowl before I left for home. While on the throne it hit me. I stayed for a few more hours and that why we have the pain pads in the game.
Stalkers are where they need to aim the nerf bat. If they were eliminated as the FOTM villain in PVP. They could stop nerfing every power that works against them. You might even see some of the other villain achtypes on accaasion.
BTW corruptors are the villain answer to basters and from what I have seen they make short work of stormies and are a good challenge for blasters. Brutes vs Tanks, scrappers vs stalkers, corruptors vs blasters. MM vs defenders, dominator vs controller. It is all a pretty good match up until the last one. They should not try to balance the fact that doms suck in pvp by constantly buffing stalkers for the hero VS villain wars. Leave the stormies alone.
I have not seen the abuses you describe. I always beat stormies with my scrapper and controller. Their damage is low and controls soft. Admittedly I don't have a villain high enough to compete. Only stalkers and bad players seem to have problems with them.
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If I concede for a moment that this power is theoretically unbalanced for PvP, can someone explain to me why that warrants a nerf that affects PvE?
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Well, there are usually a couple reasons (and this is all spectulation based on past words and deeds from Devs)
-They wanted to keep the power changed in PvP only, but due to how the power is set up, it was unable to do so.
-They saw the change in PvP, but decided it should affect PvE as well (though they didn't mention this at all in the patch notes).
Basically, those are the reasons I think could have caused it to be a PvE change as well as a PvP change. I personally lean to the first because the second one isn't supported by the Patch Notes (which only mention PvP as a reason for the change). It has been previously stated that some powers, if changed for PvP effectiveness, must be altered in PvE as well. No matter how much they may wish otherwise, it may be in the code.
That's all pure player spectulation. I wish I actually knew those things, because that would mean that I work for Cryptic.