Massive Hurricane nerf
By
aqshy2004,
Posted on: 2006-04-11 24:48 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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(Yes, I know what you meant, but it does sound funny to ask us to consider how the mobs feel.)
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I'll tell you right now. I've been to the NPC Forums, and frankly, they're all up in arms about how unfair it is for them. Most of their powers are dumbed down versions of ours, and they only have a few unique ones of their own. And don't forget the incredible HP difference. NPCs are so much more squishier then the squishiest squishy that ever squished. Of course that's a general statement, but you should hear the Minions talking about how unfair AVs and GMs are, and how they need to be nerfed into place. And the AVs piss and moan about how that AV to EB patch totally screwed up their character concept.
Though the Giant Monsters are still loving the buff they got oh so long ago that always keeps them purple, there are still those who complain because now a level 1 can be just as effective as the level 50. I personally think that's whine, because the level 50 has so much more to handle the GMs with, while the Level 1 can, in effect, get stepped on.
And you don't even WANT to hear about what the NPCs think of the fact that they can't get the Believer badge anymore. I swear, the moment that came down the pipeline, it was like an uproar.
So please, people... Think of the NPCs.
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*laughs!* Nicely said. 
The irony is that NPC Hurricane users apparently still have 1/4 second ticks. 
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Hurricane provided all of these things.
*) A significant toHit debuff. Given the base toHit of PvP is 50%, and toHit debuffs are subtracted from this base before accuracy is counted, this is a very powerful tool. Hit rates plummet in a Hurricane.
*) The debuff from Hurricane lasts 10 seconds after last application. A smart storm summoner uses this to advantage. When threatening foes approach, a smart stormer would charge them, attempting to joust them with the toHit debuff. For Super Jumping stormers, this is very effective.
*) The repel effect. This is somewhat useful for tormenting squishies you could trap in the Hurricane, but primarily I suspect the biggest benefit of this was to interfere with Stalkers' Assassin strike.
In other words, in Siren's Call PvP, the biggest benefits of Hurricane were the debuff, the debuff's duration (still broken, IMO), and the protection from AS.
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Just wondering what your thoughts are when combining the Repel nerf AND the upcoming schedule change to Acc debuffs.
I never really counted on Steamy Mist as Defense having usually mixed with Resistance/Defense/End Reduction so that made Hurricane my main damage mitigator in mostly solo play. On well-built teams, I actually found myself forgetting about Hurricane sometimes.
I don't know the numbers, but it seems we will come out on the losing end even with the Defense changes. Having no self-heal, mobs(such as Werewolves) will have a better chance to close melee and take a swipe AND will now have a better chance to hit with that melee.
I really hate dealing with number crunching in a game as I leave that stuff for work so all I can say is having used my Stormer only a couple weeks ago fighting some even-conned Possessed Scientists in PI, I did not feel Hurricane was UBER as my Health dropped significantly until I got the mob down to around 2 foes(from about 5-6, usu about 3 minions 2 Lts). Will the upcoming Defense changes make Steamy Mist make up for the Acc debuff changes? And how will the Repel effect be compensated for(in reference to the example above about melee types being more of a threat)?
It just seems like a Lose-Lose situation PvE-wise.
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DOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!
Always wanted to post that. lol.
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PvE-wise, I will agree its pretty damn close. And yes, I enjoyed Doom3 but not the movie.
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*laughs!* Nicely said.
The irony is that NPC Hurricane users apparently still have 1/4 second ticks.
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Yeah, but their version doesn't have the Repel effect (something I wish they had...). The NPC version has the Knockback, the Debuff (that only lasts while in range, and ends the moment you leave range), and that's all. They're version is VERY much weaker then the player's version, even with the recent changes.
Actually, the change to the Schedules is already live. Which stinks, but there it is.
I don't quite know what to think of the schdule change covolved with the mob toHit change. Net, net, I think it won't do much to my characters who use toHit debuffs, partially because I play at the "sweet spot" that doesn't change much (+2 mobs) and because I play Dark Miasma, which retains a large ability to stack debuffs.
Storm and Rad, and I guess Trick Arrow, seem to be just plain worse off with the change unless they're fighting +3 foes, which is nice if they are and kinda lame if they aren't.
Note that in my debate with Stormbringer, I don't neccessarily advocate what happened to Hurricane, as such. I contend only that something needed to happen in PvP. I don't contend that the power was too strong in PvE, and I certainly am not convinced that it needed a double-whammy (schedule change and repel tick change).
Personally, if it had lost the ability to debuff for 10 seconds I think I would have been satisfied with the change. That would have been a PvE nerf too, but one I think which would have been more manageable.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Personally, if it had lost the ability to debuff for 10 seconds I think I would have been satisfied with the change. That would have been a PvE nerf too, but one I think which would have been more manageable.
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O.O
Oh no... that's one thing that would have ME up in a roar over. That 10 seconds is what makes the power useful in my eyes.
i think the nerf is a mistake.
for pvp and pve.
if the devs wanted to address the problem of cornering mobs in base raids like they said, they should have done that.
unfortunately they did that and a lot more.
to me, it looks like a poor, generic solution to a very specific problem.
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How conveniently you ignore the debuff. A debuff that can reliably drop a Brute with Rage running to a 25% toHit chance. (Less now, of course.)
--and how conveniently you forget the potpouri of to-hit goodies available to your poor brute including but not limited to any to-hit buffs available to the brute like build up, soul drain, or rage, you also forget any team buffs, any defense debuffs, any yellows the brute might keep on his person...
--if hero builder numbers are to be believed, your rage (when properly slotted) provides you with a 78.69% to-hit bonus. this, coupled with 2 accuracies in your attack granst you a base to-hit in pvp of 214%.
--there is no way in hell hurricane (by itself) debuffs that to 25%.
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First of all, those planner numbers are not to be believed. The Rage toHit buff number is more like 1/2 of that. I cannot find numbers for Hurricane's base debuff or I would have run the math for you. I am basing this off of the experience of a Brute running Rage with one toHit buff and one accuracy in each attack.
Assume for a moment that Hurricane has the toHit debuff of Dark Miasma's Darkest Night. Darkest Night is a -18.75% toHit debuff. 3 slotting that with Schedule B SOs makes it -29.4375%. Brute Rage is +18% toHit, with one SO making that +21.6%.
Now with one accuracy slotted, that Brute would have a toHit of 1.33*(50-29.4+21.6) = 51.6%.
Now, assume instead that Hurricane is closer to Radiation Infection: -31.25% base. Now the numbers become
1.33*(50-49.1+21.6) = 30%.
So, it's possible Hurricane is a large toHit debuff or it's possible the Brute had a bad run. Franky, getting someone with Rage running is to miss 50% of the time is still pretty damn impressive.
And recall these are post nerf numbers.
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1) ranged damage, 2) ranged mezzes
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Covered over and over in every one of my previous posts.
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3) melee with to-hit buffs
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Covered above.
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4) slows
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I have no idea why you think this does anything to them. The storm player does not need to be especially mobile - they are the strong point of the team.
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5) kill the mez protection
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You know, the mez protection that's in the Hurricane, and has all the same problems of actually killing the stormer themselves.
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6) tp the mez protection away
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This is definitely a viable strategy. TP foe is not ubiquitous in SC PvP, however.
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7) detention field, 8) sonic cage, 9) TK, 10) force bubble or whatever it's called.
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People with dedicated PvP builds probably see these powers more often. They are, in fact, incredibly rare among PvE players because they are widely reviled for PvE use. That means that you don't get them often. On the other hand, Hurricane is (or at least was) universally useful in PvE and PvP. It did not require a specialized PvP build to include it.
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BUT THERE IS DEFINITELY MORE THAN ONE WAY TO BRING DOWN A STORM!!!
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So, lets break it down again.
*) The ones I covered (ranged)
*) Edit: TP foe, which is good and I didn't cover
*) Ones that aren't particuarly effective (I have no idea why you seem to think it's so simple to remove the healers if it's a challenge to remove the stormer to begin with)
*) Ones that you are mistaken about the pre-nerf effectiveness of (toHit buffed melees)
*) Ones that were uncommon except among dedicated PvPers.
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--recharge time on hurricane is 10 seconds. if your team of villains is not coordinated enough or balanced enough to kill a squishy in 10 seconds without his primary defensive power running, then i don't think your problem is with hurricane.
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And again I believe you are blinded by your focus on dedicated PvP in controlled environments. It's apparent that the majority of your attention is on the Arena or Base Raids. HvV zones like Sirens' Call are open PvP. You get what you can when you enter the zone. I happen to be lucky and can go in with my SG-mates, some of whom I have years of gaming experience with and with whom I can communicate on voice comms. But that zone is rich with PuGs and all sorts of randomness. Once more I will reiterate my claim that liitle can cause more need for those potenitally random people on the villain side to act with true coordination than a Hurricane caster working with a group of heroes. In fact, I claim that a PuG of uncoordinated heroes with a stormer called for a coordinated group of villains to defeat.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
to your point...
"first of all, those planner numbers are not to be believed. The Rage toHit buff number is more like 1/2 of that. I cannot find numbers for Hurricane's base debuff or I would have run the math for you. I am basing this off of the experience of a Brute running Rage with one toHit buff and one accuracy in each attack."
--this is problematic for several reasons: 1) you're not properly slotting rage for pvp, 2) you're not properly slotting your attacks for pvp. seriously, if you're going to gripe about a power being uber, please check to make sure it's really uber first. try it out slotting your rage for pvp...3 recharge, 3 to-hit buffs. try slotting your attacks for pvp as well...2 accuracies--minimum. you'll get better results.
--and yes, i know hero planner numbers are sometimes wrong, but i see no reason to believe the numbers you've provided are any better. in lieu of accurate data, i'm afraid this conversation is at a standstill.
as regards our other topics of conversation...
slows...if a storm can't move, he can't debuff squat. if the storm isn't moving anyone with a ranged attack can tee off them or their friends. they are sitting ducks. that's why i keep bring it up.
any mez protection within the hurricane is also exposed the same way the stormer is.
so why not tp the mez protector away? because it's not common in sc, doesn't mean it's not a valid tactic.
the presence of powers like DF, sonic cage TK and force bubble in PVP is because they work. and they work well. if you want to pvp competitively, try building your toon for pvp. in fact i would suggest this before calling for nerfs to sets you can't kill in certain situations. it would make the wonderful world of pvp a better place for all of us.
what i, and many others, get so frustrated with is this notion that everything should be within your reach. you don't want to respect for pvp, but you want to be good at it, you don't want to re-think your team tactics, but you want to win at pvp, you don't want to call out targets, but you want to win at pvp, you don't want to get voice technology but you want to be good at pvp...
sorry man, it looks like you don't want to do the work...you just want stuff handed to you DOA.
i submit to you, that unless you've done the work...unless you've tried all these things...you have no idea if the set you're complaining about is overpowered.
as for the rest of your post, i think it's just misleading...
you claim to have proven things that you have not. you routinely assert there's only one way to kill a storm and you refuse to see any other options. to me, it's no surprise you're having trouble in pvp. you need to take a step back and rethink things. start with your slotting and power selections. understand that people are good in pvp IN PART because they make sacrifices in pve. it's just the way it works. why else would i take both SJ and SS? to be better in pvp. toward that end i suggest taking a crack at it with your toon and copying over to test with a pvp build. heck take a whole team over. you'll be amazed at the difference your builds and power selections can make.
remember: at least 2 accuracies in every attack.
and, by all means, 6-slot rage.
good luck.
If you don't want to believe player tested numbers from respectable forum posters, that's not my problem.
If you want to believe that everyone who comes in an open PvP zone has to be slotted for it, that's not my problem. Once more I'll point out that "mere mortals" do well against one another in the absence of pre-nerf Hurricane. The notion that you have to have exceptional slotting to deal with this one power clearly doesn't fly.
The simple fact of the matter is I can see why this power was changed. I'm explaining it to you. You dislike my explanation, and you're arguing the point with me.
Sadly, that's not going to do you any good.
The devs saw a problem. They made changes. I agree that there were problems. You disagree, and some of your primary arguments are based around top-end PvP builds. Well, I don't know if you've noticed, but the devs here have never catered much to the top-end players. This game always has been about the middle ground far more than the extremes. Actually, it's often about the low end instead of the top.
I don't have to agree with that to observe and understand it. Hurricane was, to me, an obvious outlier. You disagree. I think the conditions under which you disagree are limited in special ways that contrive to make Hurricane less of an issue. So be it - such conditions exist. I don't agree that they make a useful baseline. It's apparent that the devs agree, at least on some level.
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what i, and many others, get so frustrated with is this notion that everything should be within your reach. you don't want to respect for pvp, but you want to be good at it, you don't want to re-think your team tactics, but you want to win at pvp, you don't want to call out targets, but you want to win at pvp, you don't want to get voice technology but you want to be good at pvp...
sorry man, it looks like you don't want to do the work...you just want stuff handed to you DOA.
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Where's the respec for the Storm character? They're using a standard PvE power slotted the way they would in PvE. The notion that people need special, over-the-top builds to counter it is ludicrous. I point to my statement over and over and over nothing else in the zone required that.
You slide into a tried and true defense tactic - you attack my basic understanding of PvP. You claim I either do not understand, refuse to use, or otherwise have not tried "PvP" tactics. You point to not having TP foe be common as no excuse to not using it. How can I use something that's not at hand? If I go into SC and no one on my side has that power, I can't magically add it to my list of options.
Additionally, not everyone in SC is 40 on the villain side, nor are all the heroes 50. Not everyone on either side is a pure PvP build. What if the Brute doesn't yet have six slots for his Rage?
Again, the notion that someone should resort to PvP builds to defeat a power used and slotted in PvE-style only strenghtens the notion that it was exceptionally powerful, making clear why it got "adjusted".
And I have no doubt that many of the foes I have faced are PvP builds. Ice/Energy Blasters with SJ and SS. Double stealthed Stalkers. Devices Blasters with Tactics. And I have had no problem facing them with a good team and a PvE build created with attention to PvP viabilitiy. And my build and the people I played with did defeat Hurricane users. But the effort required to do so was excpetional compaered with that required to defeat other people in the zone. And that alone is my point. Hurricane required unusual amounts of effort and coordination to defeat.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
aw screw it...
was gonna let this go, but why stop now?
uberguy writes there are no ways to beat storm guys, contrary to what i've laid out:
So, lets break it down again.
*) The ones I covered (ranged)
*) Edit: TP foe, which is good and I didn't cover
*) Ones that aren't particuarly effective (I have no idea why you seem to think it's so simple to remove the healers if it's a challenge to remove the stormer to begin with)
*) Ones that you are mistaken about the pre-nerf effectiveness of (toHit buffed melees)
*) Ones that were uncommon except among dedicated PvPers.
--so we agree...
ranged damage works...
ranged mezzes work...
tp foe works...unless the storm has ID on him/her from a kin...although...if a kin is giving storm ID making him impossible to TP, what's to stop you from porting the kin? answer: nothing. unless there's another kin...and if there is, the storm isn't your problem...it's the 2 kins.
melee attacks with to-hit buffs DO IN FACT WORK...scrappers and tanks know this very well. i invite you to re-slot your attacks and to-hit buffs and enjoy the wonderful world of pvp...anything to stifle these premature cries to "nerf this!" and "nerf that!"
slows...they work like immobilizes. you forgot those in your little summary
and pvp powers like DF, sonic cage, TK, force bubble...that people only take for pvp. those work too.
did i miss anything?
maybe.
but i think it's clear from just glancing at the incomplete list above that there's more than one way to beat a storm (as you suggested).
I've been thinking all day about how to add to this thread. It finally came to me:
"But Dad always said our powers are nothing to be ashamed of, our powers made us special!"
"Everyone's special, Dash."
"Which is another way of saying noone is . . ."
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slows...they work like immobilizes. you forgot those in your little summary
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I really just don't see this. Slowing or rooting would do virtually nothing to the Hurricane users the way I see them functioning in the open zones. This would mildly hinder the team. (Also, slows do nothing to them if they have Super Jump, though immobilizes would.) The tactical use of Hurricane I am used to is that it is used as a safe haven - a forward base. It is rarely a strong inconvenience if it is slowed down; it's often slow moving by nature.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Where's the respec for the Storm character? They're using a standard PvE power slotted the way they would in PvE. The notion that people need special, over-the-top builds to counter it is ludicrous.
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I would just like to point out, as a player of a /Storm Controller, that I had to make many, many different choices for PvP than I did for PvE. I even re-slotted Hurricane once I finally got my hands on a respec for it.
Making allusions that any Storm toon can waltz into a zone, pop on Hurricane and mosey about as if having turned on a cheat code is fallacious. Its true they have one power that can benefit equally from slotting in PvE and PvP, but there are dozens of powers out there that the same can be said of, especially personal or PBAoEs such as armors and aura-style debuffs, most especially if theyre auto-hit.
As for special, over-the-top builds, thats exactly whats needed to be a competitive force in a PvP zone. Its unfair and it sucks, but thats just how it works. Dont claim I can bring my Empathy Defender into SC with impunity. No, things I never would have taken, such as Concealment, an extra travel power and Whirlwind was what helped keep me alive. Id say thats a pretty intense amount of change for a bit more survival. Dont assume I have Tactics on every character I play, to stack with the Tactics of my team to spot a Stalker. Thats a special power which I would only take on a very few toons, were it not for the necessity of it in PvP.
In short, dont claim that Hurricane was an I-win button just because it took the tiniest modicum of strategy to overcome it. Thats just alluding to laziness and self-centered tantrums because you couldnt click an attack button over and over again to take down yet another helpless squishie.
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Pinnacle ~Carl and Sons/The Establishment
Khenti Lvl 20 Warshade
AkenAmenti Lvl 20 Necromancy/Dark Mastermind
Crey Cryostorm Lvl 50 Ice/Storm/Ice Controller
Hound of Belial Lvl 40 Fire/Kinetic Corruptor
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In short, dont claim that Hurricane was an I-win button just because it took the tiniest modicum of strategy to overcome it. Thats just alluding to laziness and self-centered tantrums because you couldnt click an attack button over and over again to take down yet another helpless squishie.
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Make sure you read the entire line of my posts in this thread. They only go back a couple of days. Because you are advising me not to do something I never did.
I never claimed that, with one exception, I have met Stormers soling well in PvP.
I never claimed that I couldn't beat Hurricane. In fact, with help, I have done so, often.
What I have said is that Hurricane brought more to a team than anything else I have seen in the open PvP zones. That this one power was effective enough to drive the shape of the battlefield.
I claim that it had this capability even "just" slotted for PvE. Even just focusing on the toHit debuff, it had this potential.
That is all. I claim that its value was extraordinary compared to other single powers on the open PvP battlefield.
Edit: In particular, I find this offensive.
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Making allusions that any Storm toon can waltz into a zone, pop on Hurricane and mosey about as if having turned on a cheat code is fallacious.
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If you are going to set a tone in a post, I advise that you stick to the facts. I never made this preposterous claim or anything like it.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Finding things offensive and/or insulting is a diety-given right. Finding text on a forum such indicates a bit of hypersensitivity. Perhaps you should step out for a bit. Arguments here can often find themselves stunningly heated for no particular reason and we wouldnt want to be drawn into that.
So, Hurricane doesnt offer a soloist an effective advantage, youve said. Youve also said Hurricane isnt an ability you cant work around. What youre saying is that it is your opinion that Hurricane brings more to a team than anything else, with no different slotting than it had outside of the zone.
Now heres the pickle. Its your opinion, but you keep ranting about facts. You cant prove an opinion.
For example: In my opinion, you are falling into the same trap most unimaginative PvPers have concerning Hurricane. You see a big, flashy effect surrounding a team and let the panic of all the ranting ravers here on the forums strike fear into your heart. Instead of taking one of the many, many options available to you and confirmed as workable by you here in this thread, you refer to it being overpowered while ignoring the fact that it is only one equal piece of a well-organized teams puzzle.
I think Clear Mind is more powerful. I think almost all of Energy Melee is more powerful. I think there are dozens of powers out there that bring just as much to a toon or a team as Hurricane ever could, the difference being just how visible the effect was and the fact that it makes some of the more effective squishie-killers stop and contemplate strategy for half a moment.
I suspect it wont be long before Forcefield is brought under the spotlight.
I cant prove my opinion, but its there nevertheless and youre reading it right this moment. You cant disprove my opinion any more than I can prove it, but there it rests. I, along with many others, dont believe Hurricane was overpowered. You, along with many others, believe it was.
The result? Your voice won out and here we are. So youre arguing, why?
If my tone upsets you, its doubtless because Ive found one of my favorite abilities weakened due in large part to viewpoints like yours. PvP complaints about easily circumventable powers in a set that was long considered highly underperforming are disappointing, to say the least.
And an allusion isnt a claim. From what I've been reading, you've been doing a whole lot of alluding.
----------------------
Pinnacle ~Carl and Sons/The Establishment
Khenti Lvl 20 Warshade
AkenAmenti Lvl 20 Necromancy/Dark Mastermind
Crey Cryostorm Lvl 50 Ice/Storm/Ice Controller
Hound of Belial Lvl 40 Fire/Kinetic Corruptor
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Finding things offensive and/or insulting is a diety-given right. Finding text on a forum such indicates a bit of hypersensitivity. Perhaps you should step out for a bit. Arguments here can often find themselves stunningly heated for no particular reason and we wouldnt want to be drawn into that.
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Well, I find it perfectly reasonable to suspect ulterior motive when a poster attributes to me a highly contentious assertion that I did not make. Less than your words, I found the inferred intention offensive.
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So, Hurricane doesnt offer a soloist an effective advantage, youve said. Youve also said Hurricane isnt an ability you cant work around. What youre saying is that it is your opinion that Hurricane brings more to a team than anything else, with no different slotting than it had outside of the zone.
Now heres the pickle. Its your opinion, but you keep ranting about facts. You cant prove an opinion.
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Would you kindly quote where I have stated an opinion as a fact, in full context?
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For example: In my opinion, you are falling into the same trap most unimaginative PvPers have concerning Hurricane. You see a big, flashy effect surrounding a team and let the panic of all the ranting ravers here on the forums strike fear into your heart. Instead of taking one of the many, many options available to you and confirmed as workable by you here in this thread, you refer to it being overpowered while ignoring the fact that it is only one equal piece of a well-organized teams puzzle.
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No, in fact I attribute exactly the reverse to you. As a user of the powerset you see someone attempting to make rational assertions about the utility level of the power and assume that I have joined a bandwagon of nerfherders.
I have not.
I simply believe I understand why this power was nerfed. I beleive, taking into account the successes I had against it an my full understanding that it was in no way invincible, that Hurricane was extraordinalrily powerful. That it was more effective than other powers available in the zone.
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I think Clear Mind is more powerful. I think almost all of Energy Melee is more powerful.
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Why? Your asserion means nothing if you don't even offer examples of why you think so. My opinions may be opinions, but I offered examples of how I formed them. Tossing around declarations is meaningless without some backing.
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I think there are dozens of powers out there that bring just as much to a toon or a team as Hurricane ever could, the difference being just how visible the effect was and the fact that it makes some of the more effective squishie-killers stop and contemplate strategy for half a moment.
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Nice hyperbolic and embedded attempt to disqualify my opinion as someone who did not contemplate strategy. I did. I consider the contemplation and coordination required to defeat a team taking even basic advantage of Hurricane more difficult than any other team combination I have seen fielded in SC.
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The result? Your voice won out and here we are. So youre arguing, why?
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Honestlly? Because I'd like to see people like acknowledge that there could have been an issue. I shared my experiences and explained them in fair detail. I carefully avoided most hyperbolic description, and stuck to events as I encountered them. I offered it as evidence that there may be something to this. And when people (mainly Stormbringer) tried to dissasemble my points, I have tried to defend them in such a way as to maintain that they have potential validity.
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If my tone upsets you, its doubtless because Ive found one of my favorite abilities weakened due in large part to viewpoints like yours. PvP complaints about easily circumventable powers in a set that was long considered highly underperforming are disappointing, to say the least.
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For what it's worth, I have commented on the boards about Hurricane's PvP performance exactly once in the past. My concern was with the toHit buff's duration only. And I share the annoyance of every player that has been nerfed in PvE for PvP balance. My personal opinion is that we have PvP to thank in large part for I5, ED, and supression. This is just another notch in its belt.
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And an allusion isnt a claim. From what I've been reading, you've been doing a whole lot of alluding.
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I fail to see in any way how you can claim my argument has been by allusion. I have been very specific in my claims. The only way in which I have been general is in not naming other powers or powersets, but this is because I consider Storm Summoning's Hurricane to be a singular outlier in ability for one power to shape the battlefield.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
If you don't want to believe player tested numbers from respectable forum posters, that's not my problem.
--maybe you're respectable, i dunno. seem a little catty to me. KIDDING! here's the deal...you can be a respectable member of the COX community and still have your numbers wrong. i'd rather go with hero planner numbers 'til you provide some evidence they're not working.
The simple fact of the matter is I can see why this power was changed. I'm explaining it to you. You dislike my explanation, and you're arguing the point with me.
--well, according to devs the power was nerfed to prevent abusing it in pvp base raids. so, the fact is, we can all see why it was nerfed. you happen to agree with the reason. that's your opinion. while i agree, there was a potential for abuse in base raids, i think the solution to this POTENTIAL problem was wholly inappropriate. that's my opinion.
I don't know if you've noticed, but the devs here have never catered much to the top-end players. This game always has been about the middle ground far more than the extremes. Actually, it's often about the low end instead of the top.
--oh i've noticed. i submit, however, the devs might do better. listening to people who pvp might help them make better changes to the pvp element of the game. after all, who is better informed to assess a powerset for pvp...one who's played the powerset for 50 levels and now does so in pvp almost exclusively, or one who's never played the set, pvps only in siren's call without acess to a host of soon-to-be-available high-level content, without access to extra slots, without access to hami-os, without considering a pvp respec, without considering pvp re-slotting, without picking up an occasional temp power, without considering coordinated team tactics...? WHO IS BETTER QUALIFIED TO DISCUSS THE MERITS OF A POWER?! i'm sorry, uberguy, it's not you. your cries of "NERF" smack of ignorance.
Where's the respec for the Storm character? They're using a standard PvE power slotted the way they would in PvE. The notion that people need special, over-the-top builds to counter it is ludicrous. I point to my statement over and over and over nothing else in the zone required that.
--where's your evidence the storm hadn't respecced? where's your consideration for any factor besides a 3 or 4-slotted hurricane? that's a maxed defense power there, buddy. you could consider maxing out some offense if you want to take 'em out. why? 'cuz pvp is a bit different than pve. for one thing, it's harder to hit enemies. so, if you want to hit enemies, consider doing something that would help...like slotting your powers appropriately. if you refuse to do so, please spare us the disservice of your nerfcalls.
You slide into a tried and true defense tactic - you attack my basic understanding of PvP. You claim I either do not understand, refuse to use, or otherwise have not tried "PvP" tactics. You point to not having TP foe be common as no excuse to not using it. How can I use something that's not at hand? If I go into SC and no one on my side has that power, I can't magically add it to my list of options.
--i meant no personal offense, honest. if i attacked your understanding of pvp it was to point something out...you have not adapted to pvp. if you expect to be successful at pvp, i submit that you have to adapt to it. this may entail respeccing, it may entail re-slotting, it may entail chosing teams carefully. i would expect you to try and exhause all of these possibilities before crying for a nerf. the fact that you didn't do this simply indicates to me you're making a lot of noise about an issue you fail to completely understand. i'm just sayin'...that's the way it looks.
Again, the notion that someone should resort to PvP builds to defeat a power used and slotted in PvE-style only strenghtens the notion that it was exceptionally powerful, making clear why it got "adjusted".
--again, you're misrepresenting my suggestion. to deal with hurricane and hurricane alone, do nothing. you won't be hurt by it. the fight will end in a draw. if you wish to deal with hurricane as it works in a well-oiled pvp team, you may consider adopting some successful pvp tactics. i merely suggested a few. to be clear: to deal with hurricane by itself, you don't have to do anything...it's not gonna hurt you.
And I have no doubt that many of the foes I have faced are PvP builds. Ice/Energy Blasters with SJ and SS. Double stealthed Stalkers. Devices Blasters with Tactics. And I have had no problem facing them with a good team and a PvE build created with attention to PvP viabilitiy. And my build and the people I played with did defeat Hurricane users. But the effort required to do so was excpetional compaered with that required to defeat other people in the zone. And that alone is my point. Hurricane required unusual amounts of effort and coordination to defeat.
--i submit to you that this had less to do with the one power you perceived debuffing you than it did with all the other elements that comprise a successful pvp experience.
that's all for tonight guys...
have a good weekend.
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well, according to devs the power was nerfed to prevent abusing it in pvp base raids. so, the fact is, we can all see why it was nerfed. you happen to agree with the reason. that's your opinion. while i agree, there was a potential for abuse in base raids, i think the solution to this POTENTIAL problem was wholly inappropriate. that's my opinion.
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Honestly, I don't disagree here. I'm not sure what a good "fix" was called for (if any!), but I have no conviction that this was it. I never got pinned in a corner with it myself except in a situation where the user had me dead-to-rights anyway.
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after all, who is better informed to assess a powerset for pvp...one who's played the powerset for 50 levels and now does so in pvp almost exclusively, or one who's never played the set, pvps only in siren's call without acess to a host of soon-to-be-available high-level content, without access to extra slots, without access to hami-os, without considering a pvp respec, without considering pvp re-slotting, without picking up an occasional temp power, without considering coordinated team tactics...? WHO IS BETTER QUALIFIED TO DISCUSS THE MERITS OF A POWER?! i'm sorry, uberguy, it's not you. your cries of "NERF" smack of ignorance.
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Sorry, but I don't buy it. I don't have to be an expert in this power. I only have to be at least moderately expert in other ATs and powersets. I have to have enough information to wonder "How best to defeat that? What if I was another AT? What if I had this power or that slotting?" I claim that, while the best fix is perhaps offered by someone with an "inside view", the best ability to spot whether or not a power is unusually powerful actually rests with people who have broad AT and powerset expereience. Certainly I might have more insight if I had a lot of experience with storm, but to claim I can't correctly identify the possiblity that it's "overpowered" in some way because I don't play it is simply false.
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where's your evidence the storm hadn't respecced? where's your consideration for any factor besides a 3 or 4-slotted hurricane? that's a maxed defense power there, buddy.
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I'm not sure why you think I assume Hurricane is anything other than a defense power. I never claimed Hurricane was going to come kill me or my team. It's exactly its potent defense that I took issue with. It allowed a safe haven from which Heroes could strike and to which they could retreat. It goes back to that shield-wall analogy I made. You could form a team around Hurricane and create a defensive formation from which to launch attacks in great safety. The very existence of this formation served to greatly increase the survivability of the Storm Summoner themselves. This is why the standard tactics you describe were by no means even remotely guaranteed. A Tanker's Taunt could cancel the Raging Brute sent in. The debuff tick all but guaranteed safety from Assasin Strikes. A single healer could usually allow recovery from ranged assault.
A motley crew of heroes in that sort of formation was a tough fight. Typcially they would crumble under concerted assault, as the chaos in their ranks took attention off the stormer long enough to kill or disable them. A well organized one was much more devastating, as they would naturally communicate threats to one another, and treating the Hurricane as the lynchpin in their offensive postioning, they would work hard to defend them.
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i meant no personal offense, honest. if i attacked your understanding of pvp it was to point something out...you have not adapted to pvp.
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I understand your point. What I am trying to say is ... it should say something that, even if I have not chosen to build a dedicated PvP progression for my character(s), I still found myself able to do well against almost anything else. Only two powers regularly gave me trouble, no matter how well the opponent was built. Hurricane and TP foe. And TP foe only gives me trouble because there's nothing much to be done about it. You just get TP'd sometimes and that's the shakes. If I hated it enough I'd get TP self.
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again, you're misrepresenting my suggestion. to deal with hurricane and hurricane alone, do nothing. you won't be hurt by it. the fight will end in a draw. if you wish to deal with hurricane as it works in a well-oiled pvp team, you may consider adopting some successful pvp tactics. i merely suggested a few. to be clear: to deal with hurricane by itself, you don't have to do anything...it's not gonna hurt you.
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Hopefully I addressed this above. No, Hurricane itself was not the problem. But the need to defeat other heroes who had a Hurricane to retreat to - that was the challenge I speak of.
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i submit to you that this had less to do with the one power you perceived debuffing you than it did with all the other elements that comprise a successful pvp experience.
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I'll concede that this is possible. My opinion is formed by comparison of fields of play where Hurricane wasn't present with those where it was. And in at least one recent case, I had the opportinity to observe how the arrival of a Hurricane user changed the dynamics of an existing battlefield, and also how one departing changed one where he had been present.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
for chuckles, here are some unsolicited testimonials on the relative uberosity of hurricane...
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showf...art=1&vc=1
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oh, we're talking ONLY IN SIREN'S CALL here...
so...no epics.
so...no storms with mez protection.
well then...
did you try using focused chi before launching your stun grenade?
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Once again.. MA/Regen Scrapper, Siren's Call. Siren's Call is heroes vs villains. Scrapper is a hero. Can't fight other heroes. My Stalker doesn't have Focus Chi. My Stalker has wasted tons of Inf on useless stun and web grenades. Hurricane alters the battlefield way too much. You shouldn't need a whole team to take out one power. No one power should be able to run continuously and make them almost untouchable(and I really do mean untouchable as in can't get near them to be able to hit them) because a toon doesn't have ranged attacks or super speed, etc. Even with tanks and scrappers there toggles can be more easily dropped by using Brawl. With hurricane, you can't get close enough to use Brawl.
I haven't gone on test to see how the effective the changes are but just because some people are complaining about them, doesn't mean they are good enough. When Tsoo Sorcerers use Hurricane you at LEAST have a chance to get close to them and hit them. Not with toons in PvP.
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Actually Kid, I kind of agree with you on some of this (I know you're amazed). Look, I knew a hurricane nerf had to be coming at some point, I've been around MMO's too long not to see it. Its not that I felt it was needed but I saw it coming. I feel this may be a bit too strong,l but then again nerfs tend to be (like some of your multitude of regen nerfs).
My problem is dealing with storm defenders, where many people have problems with storm controllers (I have both so I feel I can speak knowingly about them). The Devs really made some problems for themselves with the storm set. Its not a heal set like empathy, and its not a strict debuff set like dark or rad. Its not simply defense through bubbles like FF. Storm is in many ways the jack of all trades master of none set. And a lot of the way it defends is through positioning and controlling the battlefield. Hence why storm controllers tend to be more effective the defenders. This is the fatal flaw of the set and one that players have long recognized.
I've already said I don't really PvP. I've tried it but its never been my thing. I just don't have the time to really get good and in with the good teams to be able to truly compete. But really the storm defender has a massive amount of tools at his disposal when facing an enemy. But Hurricane is the most noticeable. Storm was designed to keep squishies safe from melee. Its why tanks and scrappers have had issues with us since day one and blasters have learned to love us.
So now that this defense is being taken away, what is the role of a stormer? We have slows (snow storm), assuming you stay in range. We have freezing rain to debuff, but once again you have to stand in the effect, which PvE has never done let alone PvP. We have thunder clap and lightning storm to detoggle you. Thunder clap was never used much as its range was less then hurricane, expect to see it more often now (although with detoggle changes who knows). We have gale for positioning, but t has horrible base accuracy. We have O2 which has a reasonable distance heal and can help resist status effects and end drain, but its not enough to keep someone dieing alive (especially for the end cost). We can offer some resists and stealth, but in the age of perception steamy mist doesn't do much for anyone. And finally we have tornado. A wild uncontrollable power that can be very nice, but if the stormer doesn't know how to use it its likely to get them killed instead. So where's this leave us? We had one thing we were really good at, and hence that's what you saw us do. Now we can do a lot, but none of it as well as another defender set.
Wow, this post rambled much more then I intended, my apologies. I guess I'm just voicing some frustrations. As I've said, based on testing my stormers will be fine. I'll adapt and keep moving. I've made stormers since before the game was released. I've been kicked from teams for being a stormer before ever getting to a mission to show what I can do. If that age come back I'm fine with it. I'll be sad because a lot of people will miss out on a great set, but I'll keep rolling along.
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I've had some ideas about what to do with Hurricane, none of which would be acceptable to anyone who has the set. My first was make it a clickie with an end time and a recharge time similiar to other defense nerfs that put in effect. Yes, they suck(I have IH on my scrapper and it sucks.. I have a ton of powers that are now click to heal clicks... Repetitive much?? 
) Instead of making it a click it could have also have been an extreme Endurance sapper which would mean you could turn it on, use it for a bit, but without a team that could buff your stamina you'd be drained pretty quick(I'm using this one because I keep being told by Stormies to get a team with this that and then other and then you could take out a Hurricane).
My most novel idea would be to make Hurricane into a power that you turn on, and makes you have very limited control of movement. Just like the hurricane pushes mobs mobs and PvP players away, have it sort of carry the Stormie away in a non controllable direction. This would mean that the Stormie would either have to turn it off to get his/her bearings again and allow the impenetrable Hurricane to most melee people to have a chance without a team(and then Stormies wouldn't need a team either to buff them because a massive drain endurance nerf, fair? ). This would also mean that anyone on a team with the Stormy using Hurricane would have to follow the Stormy and their uncontrollable Hurricane to stay behind the one power that is holding so many opponents at bay in the zone. This make it more fair for everyone to have a shot at the Stormy(because they'd have to turn it off to gain composure and not drift into a giant mob of NPCs mobs) and the others on the team would have to actually do more then hide behind someone with hurricane. They'd actually have to move and follow the Stormy which would allow for some of the stragglers to get picked off. I actually like this way the most because it would be fun to watch a Stormy on top of a building have to make the decision to turn off Hurricane to avoid falling off the buildings(meaning your whole team would have to either jump off with you to stay behind it or stay and fight) or turn it off and use other powers. I think this is the kind of "balance vision" the devs need to use with many powers instead of just black and white nerfs that make powers more or less click on and off. They need to make using the powers have more dynamic consequences along with possible positive results. People complain about Stalkers Hide. It's a power that is on, but as soon as it drops the Stalker has a giant bullseye on them and then can be torn apart. That's the way to make thing more interesting and fair for all the ATs in my opinion. Have an actual consequence for using powers in addition to the gains that can be made. I'm all for Uncontrollable Hurricane movement as a fair nerf. Then they can keep the power just the way it is strength wise.
If I concede for a moment that this power is theoretically unbalanced for PvP, can someone explain to me why that warrants a nerf that affects PvE?
I'm not trying to be snarky (at least not overly so), but PvP isn't the major thrust or the major draw for this game anyway. The majority of players are still primarily PvE players. The majority of Stormies are still primarily PvE players. And for a lot of people who picked the Storm set, at least from the Defender side, positioning-especially with Hurricane- was THE reason to take the set.
So their fun gets nerfed in the name of PvP balance? One of the primary reasons people reacted so strongly when PvP first entered the game was fear of PvE nerfs for PvP balance. And here we are, and it's not just a nerf of a power-it's a nerf of the reason people took the set.
I honestly think that the game over all is more healthy letting the PvP side game go somewhat unbalanced, rather than hurting the primary PvE game in an attempt to balance PvP. Just my opinion.
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(Yes, I know what you meant, but it does sound funny to ask us to consider how the mobs feel.)
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I'll tell you right now. I've been to the NPC Forums, and frankly, they're all up in arms about how unfair it is for them. Most of their powers are dumbed down versions of ours, and they only have a few unique ones of their own. And don't forget the incredible HP difference. NPCs are so much more squishier then the squishiest squishy that ever squished. Of course that's a general statement, but you should hear the Minions talking about how unfair AVs and GMs are, and how they need to be nerfed into place. And the AVs piss and moan about how that AV to EB patch totally screwed up their character concept.
Though the Giant Monsters are still loving the buff they got oh so long ago that always keeps them purple, there are still those who complain because now a level 1 can be just as effective as the level 50. I personally think that's whine, because the level 50 has so much more to handle the GMs with, while the Level 1 can, in effect, get stepped on.
And you don't even WANT to hear about what the NPCs think of the fact that they can't get the Believer badge anymore. I swear, the moment that came down the pipeline, it was like an uproar.
So please, people... Think of the NPCs.
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*laughs!* Nicely said.
The irony is that NPC Hurricane users apparently still have 1/4 second ticks.
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