Massive Hurricane nerf
By
aqshy2004,
Posted on: 2006-04-11 24:48 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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*shrugs* Actually, it's because I find you have NOTHING to contribute, other then a basic BMW post. It really gets to the point where I see your name, and I know that what follows is basically nothing but insults, hyperbole, and the general inability (or lack of desire) to be helpful to your cause.
Basically, what I'm saying is you remind me of a spoiled child.
So toddle off, little one.
Basically, I've just contributed with exactly the same amount of information and "good posting" that you did with the last post. Generally, if you find yourself just attacking people with your posts, you're not exactly doing anything helpful. Even if our opinions differ, there are better ways to share it then with such gratuitous insults, you know?
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Well, I'm sorry that you felt it was necessary to attack me just because I was expressing an opinion that differs from yours. And it's always ironic when someone makes a post that is full of attacks while pretending to take the high ground. But, whatever.
FivefifteenA
Actually, I was using the irony as a "teaching tool". You know, so you can see it as well from the flip side? It is a shame you didn't see my post of "Can I have your stuff" as lighthearted (as it was intended), but as an attack.
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Actually, I was using the irony as a "teaching tool". You know, so you can see it as well from the flip side? It is a shame you didn't see my post of "Can I have your stuff" as lighthearted (as it was intended), but as an attack.
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That is the most arrogant statement I have seen in a long time. Why do you presume you have anything to teach anyone? You act like you're 12 years old and you're very rude. I suggest you learn some manners before you try to teach anyone anything.
FivefifteenA
It's not about being arrogant, it's about being humble. Everyone has things to learn.
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That is the most arrogant statement I have seen in a long time. Why do you presume you have anything to teach anyone? You act like you're 12 years old and you're very rude. I suggest you learn some manners before you try to teach anyone anything.
FivefifteenA
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at least in theory we all teach each other. compliments and insults often inform us of what is acceptable in a given social setting.
not that i particularly care about your guys argument, but it is kinda off topic.
So lets recap:
most people agree that storm didnt need or deserve this nerf for PVE
PVP is a crap shoot of the people who think it should be nerfed and those who dont think it should be nerfed.
So if everyone(or nearly so) agrees that pve should have been left alone, lets think of ways to solve the specific problem of pinning a player to the wall WITHOUT affecting pve.
My suggestion is suppression of the repel effect if its on you for x amount of time. It is already in the game for some powers, so it might be easy to put in.
Jay Doherty: Yes, there was this one night that I was ready to go home but had to drop the browns off at the super bowl before I left for home. While on the throne it hit me. I stayed for a few more hours and that why we have the pain pads in the game.
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It's not about being arrogant, it's about being humble. Everyone has things to learn.
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Lol, and you're going to teach them huh, savior of the world? Goodness, you started out with a "can I have your stuff" post and have now turned into freaking Gandhi.
Hmmm -- let me guess -- the child went to bed and now the older brother is on the comp?
FivefifteenA
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My suggestion is suppression of the repel effect if its on you for x amount of time. It is already in the game for some powers, so it might be easy to put in.
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Hmm... that's interesting. How consistant is the Knockback Suppression in PvP? Do you think it's possible to use that idea, but applied to repel? Or would it require a complete rework of the effect?
No, as I said earlier, the "Can I have your stuff" was in jest. Though I'll tell you what, if you want to keep the pissing contest going, feel free to PM.
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So if everyone(or nearly so) agrees that pve should have been left alone, lets think of ways to solve the specific problem of pinning a player to the wall WITHOUT affecting pve.
My suggestion is suppression of the repel effect if its on you for x amount of time. It is already in the game for some powers, so it might be easy to put in.
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Or they could take the time to code it so that PvE is not affected at all.
Maybe there is some reason why this is impossible or not practical. If so, it would be nice for the devs to say "we tried to make this a PvP only change but it is not possible because (reason)." That would go a long way toward making people feel better about this, I think. The way it is now, with the fact that they didn't even bother to mention PvE in the patch notes, it seems like they didn't even care enough to try to code it so PvE would be uanffected.
FivefifteenA
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so i tested it out, and while the power istn completely gutted, i found that the less repel was more likely to create scatter than the old repel. Basically the old repel was strong, so they all went in one direction more or less. THe new repel is weak, so some get pushed, some dont, some run at you, some dont, etc.
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Not only that, but the new Hurricane is far less effective at countering the scatter from Freezing Rain. (Actually, I'm being too nice, its now completely ineffective in that regard.) Thats a significantly negative impact on PvE Storm Defenders.
The last PM info from Castle, would seem to indicate that they appreciate the impacts. But, if the goal is to 'remove positioning' from a debuff set, then they need to rework the set to eliminate the scatter. I'm certainly not anxious to see changes on that scale.
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oh, we're talking ONLY IN SIREN'S CALL here...
so...no epics.
so...no storms with mez protection.
well then...
did you try using focused chi before launching your stun grenade?
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Once again.. MA/Regen Scrapper, Siren's Call. Siren's Call is heroes vs villains. Scrapper is a hero. Can't fight other heroes. My Stalker doesn't have Focus Chi. My Stalker has wasted tons of Inf on useless stun and web grenades. Hurricane alters the battlefield way too much. You shouldn't need a whole team to take out one power. No one power should be able to run continuously and make them almost untouchable(and I really do mean untouchable as in can't get near them to be able to hit them) because a toon doesn't have ranged attacks or super speed, etc. Even with tanks and scrappers there toggles can be more easily dropped by using Brawl. With hurricane, you can't get close enough to use Brawl.
I haven't gone on test to see how the effective the changes are but just because some people are complaining about them, doesn't mean they are good enough. When Tsoo Sorcerers use Hurricane you at LEAST have a chance to get close to them and hit them. Not with toons in PvP.
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i'll repeat myself because i bear repeating:
YOU DON'T NEED A WHOLE TEAM TO TAKE OUT ONE POWER.
you need to adapt.
you simply refuse to do so.
instead, you prefer to ask for a nerf.
i mean no disprespect man, but this isn't good for the game.
CommunistPenguin wrote:
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My suggestion is suppression of the repel effect if its on you for x amount of time. It is already in the game for some powers, so it might be easy to put in.
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I already asked _Castle_ about that in a PM. His reply:
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Suppression did not work. I spent 3 days working with various options to get it to the shape it is currently, and while it isn't exactly what I wanted, it is the only way I could get it to work.
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I'm very impressed with the speed of his reply; even though I don't like the Hurricane change, I'm personally inclined to cut him some slack, so please don't jump all over this just because I put it in the forums.
Sailboat
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
Sorry, but I don't buy it. I don't have to be an expert in this power. I only have to be at least moderately expert in other ATs and powersets. I have to have enough information to wonder "How best to defeat that? What if I was another AT? What if I had this power or that slotting?" I claim that, while the best fix is perhaps offered by someone with an "inside view", the best ability to spot whether or not a power is unusually powerful actually rests with people who have broad AT and powerset expereience.
--you don't have to be an expert to understand whether or not a change to this power is appropriate. you do need to understand the power and it's limitations before decrying it as unbalanced. the reason i'm taking the time to post here is because i believe a fair number of people do not understand this power and believe it (and it alone) is the reason for their lack of success in pvp vs. storms. i submit there's a lot more too it than hurricane.
The very existence of this formation served to greatly increase the survivability of the Storm Summoner themselves. This is why the standard tactics you describe were by no means even remotely guaranteed. A Tanker's Taunt could cancel the Raging Brute sent in. The debuff tick all but guaranteed safety from Assasin Strikes. A single healer could usually allow recovery from ranged assault.
--ironically the formation you describe is one of the worst uses of a team and the synergies that exist between their sets. this formation is easilly demolished by a smart team. how? tp foe. you can selectively remove one memeber of the "turtling" team and gang up on him/her. then wash, rinse and repeat. i suggest tping the kin if they have one. otherwise they'll be providing ID to the rest of the team and you won't be able to tp 'em. don't like that idea? here's another: aoes. nothing works better on a lame turtling opponant than powers like snowstorm, freezing rain (sleet), ice slick, etc. after a couple of slows are stacked on the team, they won't wanna be so close to each other anymore. don't like that idea? here's another: nuke 'em. yup. sacrifice one or two buffed corrupters and send 'em in for the nuke. the result? one dead turtle. seriously, this formation is so limited in what it can do, that it's almost like tee ball. here's the ball, just sitting there stupidlly right in front of you. just begging for you to blast it as hard as you can. so, next time you see a turtle, organize your team and tee off.
A well organized one was much more devastating, as they would naturally communicate threats to one another, and treating the Hurricane as the lynchpin in their offensive postioning, they would work hard to defend them.
--a well organized team (with the right ATs and sets, skilled players and a system of communication) is always going to be very hard to beat. i know. i've lost to a number of them. when it happens, i sit around and think about it (i'm weird like that). i try to imagine what i could have done differently. i ask myself how i can improve my build or tactics. i have yet to request a powerset be nerfed, however. not saying you are, mind you. just that i know some people are requesting that or have been requesting that. and, in all honesty, i think those requests are based largely on a very limited understanding of pvp dynamics.
I understand your point. What I am trying to say is ... it should say something that, even if I have not chosen to build a dedicated PvP progression for my character(s), I still found myself able to do well against almost anything else. Only two powers regularly gave me trouble, no matter how well the opponent was built. Hurricane and TP foe. And TP foe only gives me trouble because there's nothing much to be done about it. You just get TP'd sometimes and that's the shakes. If I hated it enough I'd get TP self.
--there are some powers in the game that are a pain in the butt, i'll give you that. phase shift, PFF, DF, sonic cages, dispersion and force bubbles, TK, hurricane, clear mind, speed boost, the energy manipulation secondary, ice blasts...these are all effective powers. i strongly urge anyone who pvps to pay close attention to how these powers, when used well, affect the balance of the game. they do affect it, but understanding how and why they effect it is a huge part of taking your pvp game to the next level. at the very least, understanding these powers and how they can be utilized against you, will help you choose your team's targets when fighting in siren's or wherever else you happen to be.
And in at least one recent case, I had the opportinity to observe how the arrival of a Hurricane user changed the dynamics of an existing battlefield, and also how one departing changed one where he had been present.
--sure, i've seen this happen. but the hurricane was only part of the equation. i'm willing to bet that if the hurricane appeared as successful as you say, it was because of a number of other factors that include 1) someone on the team who can heal the storm guy/gal, 2) someone on the team who can provide the storm guy/gal with mez protection, 3) someone on the team who is capable to doing significant damage (to bring you bad guys down). if any one of these three other elements were not present, the perception of the storm's effectiveness would be greatly diminished. yeah, hurricane would still be a pain in the butt if you let it hit you, but it would primarily just be a defensive annoyance.
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My suggestion is suppression of the repel effect if its on you for x amount of time. It is already in the game for some powers, so it might be easy to put in.
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Hmm... that's interesting. How consistant is the Knockback Suppression in PvP? Do you think it's possible to use that idea, but applied to repel? Or would it require a complete rework of the effect?
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raises an interesting question, i guess...
how long is too long to be trapped in a corner?
30 seconds?
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CommunistPenguin wrote:
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My suggestion is suppression of the repel effect if its on you for x amount of time. It is already in the game for some powers, so it might be easy to put in.
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I already asked _Castle_ about that in a PM. His reply:
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Suppression did not work. I spent 3 days working with various options to get it to the shape it is currently, and while it isn't exactly what I wanted, it is the only way I could get it to work.
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I'm very impressed with the speed of his reply; even though I don't like the Hurricane change, I'm personally inclined to cut him some slack, so please don't jump all over this just because I put it in the forums.
Sailboat
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and that answers the interesting question.
bah!
the question was far more interesting than the answer.
Stormbringer,
Really, I do understand the things you're pointing out. Maybe not in the same detail you might from more extensive PvP planning and analysis, but I really do get that the Hurricane alone didn't come along and win the battle for the heroes. They had to make good use of it. They had to be smart or at least not stupid.
All I'm trying to say is that I thing the addition of the Hurricane gave them something to work with that was, IMO, more sweeping in impact than even somthing like an empath. (Who trust me, I know full well can be a wicked thing and makes a primary target on the battlefield). It's an opinion I think is well formed, but I acknowledge it is an opinion.
Last night, a controller came into SC. She (well, at least it was a female character) was Ice/Storm. She had decided not to use Hurricane in PvP because she felt people had more fun if she didn't. I don't want to debate the merits of that decision - it's just background for what I'm about to say next.
Just with her holds, debuffs, heals and liberal use of Diciplines/Break Frees (to keep from being cancelled by other holders), she had a strong effect on the battlefield. With buddies around looking out for her, she was reasonably hard to kill. And all that was without Hurricane. If she'd been using it, I do think it could have driven the villain players away, because the villains in the zone didn't have the tools one can use to surgically nullify her. Specifically, for whatever reason TP foe isn't real common. Heck, it seems less common now on both sides of open PvP. I used to get tele-ganked quite a lot.
Anyway, I'm not really arguing with you at this point. I'm just trying to explain my viewpoint. You have a very analytical view, and in particular you are coming from the perspective that "we" (the villains) should always bring the tools needed to best counter the hero powers. That makes a ton of sense when building a competition team for something like a base raid or an arena match. I'm coming from a holistic perspective based on the more random association of open PvP, where I might enter with one or two SG-mates and just make do with whoever else is in the zone. It's in that latter setting that things like Hurricane seem so powerful.
We'll see. I'm hopeful that the devs can do somthing to the power that's less distasteful to its users and fans. PvP != PvE!
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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CommunistPenguin wrote:
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My suggestion is suppression of the repel effect if its on you for x amount of time. It is already in the game for some powers, so it might be easy to put in.
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I already asked _Castle_ about that in a PM. His reply:
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Suppression did not work. I spent 3 days working with various options to get it to the shape it is currently, and while it isn't exactly what I wanted, it is the only way I could get it to work.
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I'm very impressed with the speed of his reply; even though I don't like the Hurricane change, I'm personally inclined to cut him some slack, so please don't jump all over this just because I put it in the forums.
Sailboat
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When Issue4 first hit Test Server, Hurricane in the Arena had no repel whatsoever. I'm guessing it was zone specific, not sure if that could extend to the other PvP zones as well or not. Personally, I'd rather see that PvP-specific solution instead of the current one that affects PvE. Granted, that probably won't satisfy the PvP enthusiasts, and I imagine PvP Stormers outnumber PvE Stormers... but its a thought ...
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My suggestion is suppression of the repel effect if its on you for x amount of time. It is already in the game for some powers, so it might be easy to put in.
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Hmm... that's interesting. How consistant is the Knockback Suppression in PvP? Do you think it's possible to use that idea, but applied to repel? Or would it require a complete rework of the effect?
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raises an interesting question, i guess...
how long is too long to be trapped in a corner?
30 seconds?
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The last time I was TP'd into a corner with a Stormer I was on my MA/SR scrapper. When I saw the TP Foe animation I hit Elude. After a few seconds the stormer laughed at me for using Elude and told me he was going to keep me pinned for 3 minutes (thats how long Elude lasts). 2 minutes of trying to escape, trying to joust through, and just hitting every button I had access to... I gave up and simply hit Menu/Quit/Log Off.
When I logged back in they were still laughing. When I said maybe Hurricane should have a 3 min duration and 1000 sec recharge, they didn't understand what I was trying to say. This is what the devs were aiming for. Pinning players in a corner and being able to go AFK, come back, and they're still there was a concern.
(This is just an example of what the devs were trying to fix. I personally don't like the hurricane change.)
Currently roleplaying, badgehunting, and laughing at the PvPers of CoX. lol, PvP.
Truedusk - Human Rogue
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When Issue4 first hit Test Server, Hurricane in the Arena had no repel whatsoever. I'm guessing it was zone specific, not sure if that could extend to the other PvP zones as well or not. Personally, I'd rather see that PvP-specific solution instead of the current one that affects PvE. Granted, that probably won't satisfy the PvP enthusiasts, and I imagine PvP Stormers outnumber PvE Stormers... but its a thought ...
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It is entirely possible to change power values based on PVP or PVE. In response to a Defender Issues Post, _Castle_ stated:
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* PvP: Darkest Night is debuffing 50% of base damage, as opposed to the 37.5% it debuffs in PvE.
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Yep. Handy, no? In other words, by design.
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Somehow, Darkest Night was changed so that its base -DAM debuff value depended on whether you were in PVP or PVE. The same should be possible for other powers. I imagine that they're reluctant to do this extensively because it is difficult to inform players that their powers will function differently in PvE and PvP. Forumgoers will know of the change and be happier that PVP changes don't affect PVE, but the large majority of the player base won't know why the effectiveness of their powers changes from PVP to PVE.
I'd still prefer that the Devs keep separate values for PVP and PVE and add a small addendum to the power description of all powers whose effectiveness varies, saying "This effect is stronger/weaker against villains/heroes." I don't see any problem with this solution, and given that the Devs have changed power values between PVP and PVE at least once (Darkest Night) without informing anybody, I don't think they should have a problem with it either.
EDITED
Hurricane should not be changed at all with the exception of increasing its endurance cost as was orginaly decided upon.
Geography is, and should be an important part of any tactical battle just as LOS is. If Hurricane is nerfed so should holds. Both do the same thing essentialy.
There are numerous ways to counter Hurricane, it is not all that uber of a power. A hold can trap you while you are killed more easily than trapping someone against a wall or corner. That sounds like good tactics to me.
If anything the reason it should be changed is for PvE since the mobs are often stupid enough to run into rather than avoid it. Even then, that is a bad AI design problem, not anything really wrong with the power.
Storm Defenders have no self heal, or defense against ranged attackers and because of that they get some defense against melee. If this change goes forward the powerset needs to be rebalanced and 02 boost needs to be made self targetable, or we need to have our range defense increased.
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If anything the reason it should be changed is for PvE since the mobs are often stupid enough to run into rather than avoid it. Even then, that is a bad AI design problem, not anything really wrong with the power.
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I could be wrong, but I think this is the -perception in action. Basically, they can't see you very well so they wander closer for a better look. If so, this is what is keeping the power bearable right now in PvE.
A guide to the deranged, degraded inhabitants of the forums.
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I will go out on a limb and say this is a purely PvP problem yet it will now affect my PvE gameplay and that is unacceptable. Now I may add myself to the growing minority list of players saying "Thank god I already got my [insert AT] to level 50" list.
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This sums this thread up nicely.
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CommunistPenguin wrote:
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My suggestion is suppression of the repel effect if its on you for x amount of time. It is already in the game for some powers, so it might be easy to put in.
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I already asked _Castle_ about that in a PM. His reply:
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Suppression did not work. I spent 3 days working with various options to get it to the shape it is currently, and while it isn't exactly what I wanted, it is the only way I could get it to work.
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I'm very impressed with the speed of his reply; even though I don't like the Hurricane change, I'm personally inclined to cut him some slack, so please don't jump all over this just because I put it in the forums.
Sailboat
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When Issue4 first hit Test Server, Hurricane in the Arena had no repel whatsoever. I'm guessing it was zone specific, not sure if that could extend to the other PvP zones as well or not. Personally, I'd rather see that PvP-specific solution instead of the current one that affects PvE. Granted, that probably won't satisfy the PvP enthusiasts, and I imagine PvP Stormers outnumber PvE Stormers... but its a thought ...
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Personally i would prefer they remove the repel from the pvp version rather than mess with the pulse time. After all, if players can eaily get thoguh the repel, whats the pint of it being there? Just remove it and leave the pve repel as it used to be.
Jay Doherty: Yes, there was this one night that I was ready to go home but had to drop the browns off at the super bowl before I left for home. While on the throne it hit me. I stayed for a few more hours and that why we have the pain pads in the game.
CommunistPenguin wrote:
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I already asked _Castle_ about that in a PM. His reply:
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Suppression did not work. I spent 3 days working with various options to get it to the shape it is currently, and while it isn't exactly what I wanted, it is the only way I could get it to work.
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I hope the debate here can help convince Castle that this is not the way players want iot to work. Especially not PvE players. The PvP aspect of CoX simply isn't important enought to merit such a big change.
Yeah, that's what I've found as well. Defenders will have it rough, except as a Debuffer. Controllers can have an easier time, because of the ability to hold / immoblize.