PeteX

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im not satisfied with 'have a pocked 'ruptor help you' as an answer to buffs/debuffs in game.

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Then play a set that has slow resistance. Letting BFs counter everything isn't the solution to dominator problems. It will just make fewer viable builds in PvP.

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um, ok i guess i dont see how 10% of your speed/recharge left is any better for you then to be held (note i said mezzed before...holds are NOT the only mez ingame)

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10% for spd, 25% for recharge (IIRC). And yes, being able to still function (use inspirations, activate teleport, wormhole attackers away, etc) is much nicer than being unable to do anything at all.

Of course, this is due to the binary nature of controls, and it makes control sets unfun in PvP, but that is the design.

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notice i said adjustments to (de)buff...sorry if you didnt catch that i ment BOTH by the way i typed it. is just easier than typin buff/debuff.

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Sorry, didn't notice that.

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tell that to the hordes of ice/cold 'ruptors or ice/nrg blasters.

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Ice/NRG is feared for its debuffs?

Ice/Cold is nice, particularly with web nades, but having Sonic/Therm/Kin on the team is nicer. It's one of the better soloing setups, which is why it is popular. Therm is actually pretty strong soloing once they get their last two debuffs. But for "real pvp", as in group versus group, the buffs are what wins the battles (and maybe some caging/repel thrown in for flavor).

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and i'm a real life kinda guy, so miniscule chance pretty much equates to no chance for me. hence i see no difference.

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Get a speed boost. Problem solved.

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and it's ok to overpower buffs/debuffs so defenders have a purpose, but for doms it'll just make 'trollers overpowered?!? when it's the buffs/debuffs that are most valued from 'trollers?

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No, I said making control more powerful so that dominators contribute more will in turn make controllers even more powerful (unless the change is dominator-only, i.e. through a change to domination).

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reign in buffs/debuffs, LOOSEN (not remove) the leash on mezs. balance out buff/debuff aginst mez and alot of the other balances between dom/'ruptor/'troller/ go byebye from what i've seen.

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And, in turn, create rifts in support vs offense. Nerfing buffs/debuffs (and AVs to compensate), in turn make tanks and scrappers stronger. It really wouldn't take too much to make tanks able to stand up to AVs without much support (except some healing probably). Nerf buffs/debuffs VS AVs enough and regen scrappers will be able to tank them.

The current balance situation is due to the desire to make defenders useful, tankers less godlike, and still have AVs require teams to take down (mostly). It sorta works except for dominators and possibly stalkers. Dominators are simply designed poorly, IMO.

The devs are aware of the controller versus defender problem, and word is they are going to be looking at that before long.

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never could understand how stacked -slow and -rchg is less annoying or gamebreaking to have on ya than stacked mez...

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Because you can still function with -spd and -recharge on you. They also have floors, so you will be able to use some powers (including Phase, Teleport, Heal, etc). There are also buffs to counter them, which are much stronger than the debuffs (speed boost for instance).

Overall, debuffs really are not that strong in PvP. If they were, Dark would be the king. And, of course, there is the psycology of being completely helpless (held) versus having a chance (debuffed).

As for nerfing debuffs, again I think that will just create greater rifts in all of the buff/debuff sets. Buffs are already better most of the time, and in PvP. Debuffs are really only better during AV battles, and even then you still want healers/buffers around.

Sure, we could nerf debuffs and then nerf AVs, but then we go back to the "defenders are not needed" problem before all of the -regen and such were added.

Good points, Genosaurer.

A corruptor team, especially versus an AV, is much better off having at least one brute than all corruptors. I have been on many all-cor teams, and many variations of, and a brute always makes the team much more focused.

I also have a Thug/TA MM who is in his 30s now, and let me tell you that TA is nothing to laugh at, especially in the hands of a Mastermind. MMs do quite well when stacked together too, just like corruptors (assuming your video card can take it). But again, just like with corruptors, it makes life much easier to have a Brute as a focus.

Dark Miasma is incredibly strong in the hands of any AT, and it shouldn't shock anyone that it is superb, particularly when stacked on teams. Compare it with something like /Traps and it will always come out on top. It is also available to three ATs, not just corruptors.

As for dominators, my point-of-view is simple. They bring control + damage to team. Control doesn't stack very well. Damage is always welcome, particularly against AVs, but dom damage isn't very good (I would say dominators bring overall DPS down).

Making control stronger versus AVs in general is simply going to make Controllers even stronger, and possibly some corruptors/defenders too. Obviously, damage is not something the devs want to give dominators, which leaves us with ... more changes to Domination (which is precisely what they are adjusting).

Unfortunately, the whole Domination design is something many of us feel is already out of hand. There is a reason Voltron battles became so boring after a while. It's hard to be tactically interesting when you just wait for a trump card evertime. The more strength they pump into Domination, the more shallow the AT becomes, IMO.

Hopefully they can come up with something clever, but I think they have found themselves in a corner with the overall design of Dominators.

No, a clique is what I see. Like when several members start flaming 515A just to be one of the "cool kids", even if the post is purely neutral.

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The first dismisses the one and only problems/solutions thread that seeks a reasonable middle ground. It wants concensus and proven issues, not hyperbole and ranting.

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Consensus among whom? If the issues were more accurate, and the clique more reasonable I would have no problems with such a thread.

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this would look good in the dom issues thread where it could be discussed and see if it's universaly agreed apon (not sayin it is or isnt) and does sound lots better than 'grav sucks', 'grav is useless' and 'you cannot succeed with grav' which is the bulk of your message from what i've read of your posts.

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Just a FYI, not everyone finds those threads useful. Just because the forum clique agrees on something and writes it in there, doesn't mean the other 99% of the playerbase automatically feels that way, or even a majority.

The truth is it's useless trying to argue with this forum's clique, so I don't even read or participate with that thread. What is the point? We will just get responses like yours in this thread.

I will post mission feedback here as well.

My dom cannot solo these story missions even on villainous. There are too many EBs (AVs) that are simply too strong. Well, truthfully I *can*, but only if I go to Bloody Bay every few missions and restock on Shivans.

Silver Mantis in the Scirocco arc. The first time I fought her she two-shot me within 5 seconds. The next attempt I used a Shivan. She was able to kill off her mobs (whom I had confused), my pet (flytrap is too squishy), my shivan (just .. wow), and almost took out me and my resummoned pet before I finally managed to kill her off. I used a full tray (at level 40) of insps also.

I have had similar problems with Foreshadow, his sidekick, Ice Minstrel several times, Scirocco himself, etc (though Silver Mantis is the worst offender). I have only been able to pass these missions by using Shivans. That is not cool.

The main problem is that I simply cannot put out enough damage to stop them by myself, and with the triangles still in place my holds are mostly worthless against EBs (plant holds have no useful secondary effects at all). I have most of my attacks (all are 3-slotted with damage) too.

The thing I hated most about CoH was the 40-50 content relying on all AVs. I appreciate the AV-to-EB downgrade for villainous difficulty, but it still isn't enough for dominators. While I like having the paper missions as options, and enjoy the new mayhem missions, I'm not going to continue playing if I cannot solo any more story content because EBs are still overpowering and have triangles, even in the non-patron content.

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I've been here since CoH launched, and I've been through a lot of changes. I can understand the need for some changes for balance reasons, but seriously, you guys are making so many negative changes that the fun factor that this game offers is starting to go away.

If nothing but frustration is replacing fun, you're doing something wrong.

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Good post. I feel very similarly to you. I have been here since CoH beta (took a break or two but still). I was asked around E3 time by a friend who also plays if I heard anything cool about upcoming MMOGs. I stated "I haven't read much about E3. I'm happy in CoH/CoV and plan to stay a while."

But honestly, after going through I7 on test and now on live, with all of the changes, and seeing how certain things are turning out (accolades, PPPs, tier 9's in pvp, debt, dom can't solo EBs w/o shivans, crappy game performance on good machines, etc), I am starting to reconsider. I don't want a game where I feel I can only PvP at level 50. What is the point of opening the zones to non-50's again?

How about we fix stuff like Mace for tankers, which has been craptastic for two years now, instead of making PvP less fun overall? And yes, I understand that different areas work on differents parts of the game simultaneously, but I'm thinking it's about time for some realignment (like taking some people out of the "nerfing fun" team and putting them elsewhere like the mailroom).

So basically, I can say get a stalker or maybe a scrapper with headsplitter and commit my time to griefing in PvP zones. Simply wait for one of the oodles of pvp mobs (such as the heralds or ancestor spirits in Sirens who can take a squishy down to like 20% in one-hit and stun them) and then finish them off to give them debt.

Hell, you don't need teleport foe to easily give players debt in PvP any longer, but now it will be even easier to abuse the tp method as well!

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A lot of people are overreacting to this right now.

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Not at all. I get shot by NPCs while PvPing all of the time. Hell, I get shot while travelling all of the time. Like those Tsoo darts that poison you for like 2 minutes.

It's much easier to avoid letting an npc get the final shot, than having to constantly avoid being hit by the legions of haphazardly placed mobs in these PvP zones 24/7 while trying to actually fight players.

Maybe the base campers have the right idea afterall. Avoid the NPCs and sit in one spot. Joy.

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Just added this patch note to PvP section:

Being defeated in a PvP zone will carry debt if any of the damage to you was caused by NPCs. The amount of debt is directly proportional to the amount of damage you took from NPCs vs. how much was done by opposing Player Characters. The more damage dealt to you by NPCs means more debt when you are defeated.

* This means that you can no longer “escape debt” by being defeated by a PC after taking massive damage from NPCs, nor will you be penalized with a massive amount of debt if you are defeated by an NPC after taking a huge amount of damage from a PC.

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I took only "falling" damage and still got debt. So I think ANY outside damage will produce debt.


There goes Fly is a travel power in PvP.

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I must say that this is a bad change. I get shot by NPCs all of the time in PvP while trying to fight players (heaven forbid). This is just more incentive to stay out of PvP zones, at least until I am level 50. I will undoubtedly get tons more debt now, just from the annoying NPCs whom I wish were not in the f'n zone in the first place.

I'm certainly not going to waste time on pillboxes now. In fact, I am almost completely fed up with PvP at this point with all the negatives associated with it, particularly for villains.

The developers should try to be making pvp more casual friendly. Instead all they are doing is making it less fun unless you are a level 50 scrapper/troller.

Boo. Hiss.

Yep, I agree with you about corruptors. The villain teams are much too reliant on them. In fact, they have been since Siren's at least.

I assumed it was just the fact that the villain ATs are later bloomers, but we don't have that issue any longer in RV (aside from some slots and PPPs, which really will not help).

I think the problem is that the villain ATs are just too squishy overall. Lower hitpoints across the board, our second support class (MMs) being subpar buffers, brutes are still squishy and generally low-damage, less mez protection than heroes and hero APPs. And while bodyguard might have helped MMs (still to be determined IMO), they still suffer in PvP because of the pets (pathing, slow, long setup, etc).

Honestly, as I have been playing in a PvP-oriented VG for a while, the villain pvp just seems shallow atm. Too much corruptor support reliance. A hero team can do pretty well with a mix of ATs, but villains have to have way too many corruptors. At least doms are useful now, even if they are squishy and mezzable.

It really has stunted my desire to level past 40. That and the crappy PPPs giving me nothing to look forward to on the PvE side. Mayhem missions are cool though!

I know Pos said that. I was referring to those of us saying doms are doing well in RV, since people keep replying to us as if we had said that ourselves.

Change "nobody" to "none of us testers in this thread" to get my meaning.

Yep. I still think our damage is too low, but then I think defender damage is too low as well and have tired of fruitlessly lobbying for more. Controllers spank us for damage. Oh well, they have spanked everyone for a while (at least some builds).

And yeah, I think doms need a bit of an hp boost, since we are melee-oriented and can get (essentially) 1-hit often.

Do I think the patron pools are good? Not really. The resistance armor will be nice, that's about it.

However, at the end of the day, I'm happy that doms are useful to PvP teams now. Pets suck in zones, but so do many powers/sets.

I wouldn't be surprised if our control was eventually nerfed in PvP, but our hp and dmg come up a little. I am expecting nerf posts when more doms start dominating more than hospital space.

Even with Psi and FoN they are going to need

A) Perception buffs
B) Healing
C) Fortitude
D) Mez protection
E) Slow/Port protection

etc. Nobody is saying the PPPs are as good as the hero APPs. We are simply stating that dominators are now strong enough to be utilized on good PvP teams, where before they were a handicap.

I don't recall any AT yet that I wasn't able to hold eventually in RV when domination was up. And with speed boosts, that is a good percentage of the time.

As far as two doms being better than one, well damn you should be happy. Before I7 they would have been considered 2 gimpy handicaps for the team, now they are an asset.

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Second point: What other AT is only useful 45% of the time? If the only thing we bring to a team is the use of Domination, then we are indeed only useful 45% of the time in optimal conditions.

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Much like Blasters, Tankers, Scrappers, Corruptors, MMs, Brutes, etc, Dominators need a team to reach full capacity.

Speed Boost, AM, even Hasten will help ya there.

I think doms could use an HP boost since they are supposed to go in melee so often, but other than that I agree with Doc that they are sitting pretty nicely right now in PvP thanks to the domination change.

Other ATs have holds, but they are not gonna hold a Stone tank in 2-3 holds, or an RV Heavy for that matter.

The devs have already stated that Brutes need a fury fix, but that is gonna be a little longer coming.

Everyone has been saying that doms are useless and only stalkers are good in pvp, well here are a bunch of squishies (including doms) doing well against 3x odds, and all you people can do is gripe (more). I thought going up against trollers with status protection and uber fire balls, tier-9 scrappers, and the dreaded Focused Accuracy meant villains had zero chance?

Where is my eyeroll emote?

You must have logged by the time the villain team started kicking butt. The villain base was free of camping for at least three hours, I assure you.

Positron isn't commenting on the AV downgrade code, just that the ending hero/boss is completely random.

When Positron was randomly selected as my hero, he was still downgraded from a Hero to an Elite Boss because I was set to villainous.

One comment I would like to make is with the pillbox design. I was really hoping for something more like those in Bloody Bay, or perhaps even the towers you must lead the scientists to in Warbug.

The pillboxes are just dropped in the open. I would really like it if they (or some) were made more defendable, giving the more static sets (Traps, Dark Miasma, Devices, Storm, etc) a role in the pvp zone environment (other than TpFoe ganking).

As it stands, the boxes are all out in the open which makes them much to easy to take out and zerg, or snipe at long range. Just a thought.

My level 40 Dominator took on a mayhem mission last night.

Zone: Founder's Falls (off Grandville)
Diff: Villainous

A few comments:

The female stalker (sorry, I forget her name) was the villain in prison. I broke her out, but something strange happened to her after that. She stopped following me (though she would still announce that I left her), was still "friendly" when I targetted her, but her caltrops were slowing me if I walked on them.

Zoning out of the Prison placed me under the world once.

Though my difficulty was villainous, my ending hero was Positron in Elite Boss status. I had no chance of defeating him since he retains his purple arrows and thus resists all of my control effects. There really is an issue with Elite Bosses and dominators. They really need to have their arrows removed when downgraded from AV/Hero status.

I must admit it was neat flying over Founder's trying to "lose" Positron who was flying after me though.

The first key I found in the zone (near the zone-in and Police Department) didn't give me a waypoint on the map or on the compass.

I really like the way these missions are set up. The side missions really feel like missions (the warehouse and office ones are more fun with a "real goal"). Two thumbs way up overall.

EDIT: Also, though I haven't done many of these, it seems the keys are almost always found on villain group spawns (Lost, Crey, etc). It might be neat to have at least one located in an item that you have to destroy to get.

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Just a heads up:

I have several devs reading this thread, and are working on the bugs you guys are finding, and on ways to improve the Mayhem Missions (such as making the end Hero non-random; currently the end Hero you get is totally random, and has nothing to do with anything you did in the mission, we are looking into changing that).

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Hmm. As long as my playstyle doesn't end up with me always fighting the same couple heroes I guess this is okay. I really don't think the game needs less variety in missions though.

If I have to "dumb down" my gameplay just to fight someone different at the end, that will be extremely lame.

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I've never understood why Blasters had them anyway. What does de-toggling do, at it's most basic level? It makes a player, or one or more of their powers, less effective. Sounds like a debuff to me. The devs have made it clear that debuffs are Defender territory, with sets being shared by Controllers, Corruptors, and MMs. As such, only those ATs should have ever had them.

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Agreed. When my /Cold corruptor faces off against a blaster in pvp, he instantly drops my arctic fog (fire/cold resist). It will be nice to at least have a chance for that power to be useful again.

Perhaps the values should go up for Defenders, but I don't think blasters need a guaranteed dropper.

Hopefully now PvP will become a little more than Clear Mind/Heal spamming on Blasters as they destroy everything in their paths (though I doubt it).