disco_

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Being defeated in a PvP zone will carry debt if any of the damage to you was caused by NPCs. The amount of debt is directly proportional to the amount of damage you took from NPCs vs. how much was done by opposing Player Characters. The more damage dealt to you by NPCs means more debt when you are defeated.


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So how exeactly are you going to factor in damage healing? Is NPC damage going to be healed first? This is starting to look like a Credit Card payment agreement...

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Just to add more fun, I'm not sure disco_ is in fact 100% correct here: I'm not convinced that tohit debuff resistance is multiplicative: in cases where I'm pretty sure of how a debuff resistance works, its additive.


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I think you might be right and that would make the numbers in my example a bit off.

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The fact that tohit debuffs are a foe effect, and therefore subject to foe resistances, is not relevant to the subject of the I7 critter accuracy changes. It is relevant to tohit debuff mechanics in general, regardless of the critter accuracy changes. Every issue brought up with regard to tohit debuffs would still exist now if the I7 critter accuracy changes didn't happen.


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I believe the rank resistance modifier (or combat modifier as States called it) was specifically added for the I7 defense changes. AFAIK tohit debuff are the only debuffs that suffer a rank modifier. The rest just get applied with a level modifier (purple patch).

That said, I wasn't really trying to start a debate, just trying to make the devs give a correct example. The modifier part was just venting on my part.

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I’ll work it out a little more fully here with the To Hit Formula. Taking that boss mentioned above, his To Hit would work out like this…

(0.5 - 0.4372) * 1.3 = 0.0816 or 8.16%.


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This example does not take into account that the boss now has a .2 resists factor to tohit debuffs.

Even con boss with 2 SO in RI:
(0.5 - 0.4375*0.8) * 1.3 = 0.195 or 19.5%.

You should also probably note that ToHit debuff are also resistant by level, same example with a +2 boss

(0.5 - 0.4375*0.8*0.8) * 1.3 * 1.2 = 0.342 or 34.2%.

With 3 slotted RI:
(0.5 - 0.48*0.8*0.8) * 1.3 * 1.2 = 0.30 or 30.0%.


Edit: Before I7 ToHit debuffs were double-penalized for level difference. Now they are double-penalized for level difference and rank. Was this really warranted??

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I don't understand why people who play ranged ATs think that characters that devote an entire powerset to defense shouldn't have that defense in PVP.

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Kali, I don't think this is what I was saying...

I know your opinion on TD - unnecessary kludge mechanics that is not needed anymore. So, do you think this is a good fix to the problem?

Anyway, looks like the devs are going forward with this as they mentioned nothing and the only updates so far are just minor fixes. I know i won't pvp with my stormie when I7 comes out. The only fun I had was using T-Clap (and to some extent Tornado and Snow Storm). I'll respec him to a pve build and have my fun doing something else. I'm sure there are going to be lots of defenders in RV when it comes out.

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As to the toggle drop changes, I see them as positive. I can't remember the amount of times I've been stunned and toggle dropped by an Energy Melee or even Assault Rifle and gone squish.


If, in the end, this adds more survivability to the various archetypes and makes more people try PvP, it's a positive change.



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It only adds more survivability to ATs that already had a high level of it. The change actually lowers the survivability of my stormie as now no melee AT is going to fear getting close to him. This change goes far more to the extreme than just correct the imbalance that the blaster melee attacks had with high damage, toggle drops and mez all included in one attack.

I don't understand why melee AT think that their pve level of protection should carry over to pvp. It sure is not expected of any of my defenders.

Still no news from the devs on Toggle Drops.

<ul type="square"> [*] Devs, you over-nerfed Force Bolt and Thunderclap. Those powers are back to being completely useless. [*] Give Dominators and Defenders an AT modifier for TD. [*] Give knockback powers a small chance for TD, it's a useless secondary (more so with the current nerf). Make TD part of the gameplay. Balanced, it can give an interesing dimension to pvp.[*] The higher the damage on a power the lower the TD chance should be - not the other way around..[*] Mezzing power should have a reduced chance for TD, not a higher chance.[/list]

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Specifically which AT's and powers do you think need to be increased?

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This shouldn't really come from the player base but instead be a Devs decision based on research and a coherent line of thought. Right know all we have is an across the board nerf with the only explanation given as ''It was too much". How did they come up with those numbers? What kind of dynamics are they trying to accomplish with TD? How do they envision the usage of toggle dropping powers and how often it should happen? What kind of powers and AT should be good at it?

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everyone is going on about how this kills the non FOTM blasters in uselessness in PVP. heres a question can anyone name me a FOTM PVP tank? please by all means do so.

also talking about blasters when moving into melee getting status affected. please tell me which tanks can give status in their secondary.

SS - sure KO blow
stone - Yes some big hammer ( dont remember power name)
fire - nothing
axe - nothing
mace - sure has a disoreint, but it is week at best and pitiful dmg means you probably recover before he can kill you anyways.


now combine that with teh ability of toggle drops to completely nullify my primary pool powers and see why not too many tanks do PVP competitively.

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I would think that /mace has a better chance to drop toggles now on a blaster than other way around. And by that I mean drop all the toggles on said blaster. Have you any idea how long it takes to put Leadership back on for lets say, a defender?

There was a need for change, they just went way too far..

A change was needed indeed, but this is way too much. Come on, Tunderclap hurdly does anything in pve and absolutely nothing in pvp. 12% toggle drop is a joke.

Cool, thanks for the fast reponse!!

Can we get some numbers?

SS, SJ and Teleport all effectively counter Snow Storm. It is far from being the ultimate movement debuff.

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But, hey, Defender are the most balanced Archetype, if by quantity rather than quality, and it's not like we're supposed to be good at debuffing.

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Debuffing is so 2005..

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I haven't done the necessary testing and things for the post-I6 build. Things have been hectic lately and I only recently got back into the game. Planning your wedding eats your life. Soon I'll have time again, and will be able to put the work in to test everything out... and there will be a new version of the guide with an all new twinkybuild or two.

Depending when, it may even be the post-I7 build.

Sorry about the wait, folks. I know I'm slacking. ;-)

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Lol, went through all that (wedding palnning) last summer. Congratulations, Dodger! And take it easy man, it will all be over soon

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EF does not buff its own damage debuff. They are both measured to be 22%.

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EF -res is 30%, tested it two days ago.

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I confirmed both values via PM from _Castle_ a few days ago (actually DN is 18.75%). There's a post with the details here

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Three slotted with schedule A it doesn't even floor minions. From your experience, is that the way it works currently?

Last time I played a DDD was befor I2, but as far as I remember they both gave very similar results when I switched to a rad/.

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What numbers are you using for Dark Miasma?

_Castle_ quoted Darkest Night at 18.5%. Both Fearsome Stare and Twilight Grasp are about half that, Chill of the Night is about equal to Darkest Night. Tar Patch does enhance damage debuffs numbers, but the resistance debuff can also be resisted. Nobody knows whether or not it will affect the ToHit Debuff resistance.


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States used 31.25% for RI in his example. I highly doubt that there is such a big different between RI and DN. Something is wrong..

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I've tracked down the error in the "Before" case. Statesman says:
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The To Hit chance also increased over level. A +1 level had a 1.05 modifier, +2 level 1.1 and +3 1.15. For example, the base to hit chance of a lieutenant +2 levels was .58*1.1 or 63.8%.

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As iakona shows, the math doesn't work using these base to hit chances. However, if the level modifiers are additive rather than multiplicative, the numbers match perfectly. (In other words, a +3 boss would have a base to hit of 0.65+0.15=0.80). Which leads to the question: which is wrong, the explanation or the math?

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Good question. It would be nice to get numbers that are actually generated from the game engine and not based on what the devs thinks the current formula is. I'm sure they have a bunch of different ones and are trying to figure out which math they actually ended up implementing..

Quizzles, how do you get those to hit modifiers (0.3607 and 0.2984) for 3-slotted DN? Isn't it the same base debuff as RI -- 0.3125 plus enhancements?

So if i understand this correctly - after I7, 2 TohitDebuff SOs in RI will floor up to +3 regardless if they are schedule A or B.

What was the point of this change again?

That's fine, if you want to make an isolated analysis of what a kin/ can or can't accomplish in terms of "damage-per-hit" then just address it as such. But you ended you post with this -

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So. You should go roll a Kinetics/Sonics defender. Your damage will rival that of a blaster, and ultimately surpass it. Your buffs, debuffs, heals, and movement powers will make you an unequaled boon to any team you join.

Do it soon, because the devs are probably going to nerf us.



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Which to me seems to claim (and correct if i'm wrong) more than just "/kin can get a single target multiplier which is close to a blaster's".

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I did not use Sonic blasters for comparison, this is true.

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You should. The BI of the Sonic attacks are lower than the rest of the primaries and it is also lacking in the AoE department. I actually think storm/sonic will out damage a kin/sonic becuase of the pets and lots of -def but i haven't ran any numbers. Regardless, kin/sonic is very far from being uber and surpressing blasters in damage.

Edit: Regarding your last post - There was one main reason why kin/ was doing good damage pre ED that would make blasters envy. With FS you could slot your nuke with all recharge and get about the same damage twice as fast as a blaster. It was good enough to take +2s.

Awesome work

One comment regarding the three single target /sonic attacks. An alternative to taking all three if you find that you need shout only occasionally is to rely on temp powers. Those are pretty common these days and are pretty good deal for defenders and even a better deal for /sonic ones. Some of them like the Croatoa bow-and-arrow can last a really long time if you only need it occasionally for a bosses or something tough. And there is always the em gloves in SC (aka The Gloves of DOOM).

Shriek - Scream - Shriek - Gloves of DOOM

I suggest they make a dedicated pvp zone for each AT and be done with it.