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I wont come and complain on the boards for a mistake I made demanding free months or demanding the devs shower me with respecs. I accept mistakes I make. We all do it. The test server is there to do our best to ensure we dont make a mistake.
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This makes me wonder about something. The Test server is there to help us avoid making power choices?
That seems to admit there is a need for a way avoid mistakes. Why would it be wrong to have this need fulfilled in a different way than the Test server? A trial period in-game would do the same thing.
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This makes me wonder about something. The Test server is there to help us avoid making power choices?
That seems to admit there is a need for a way avoid mistakes.
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When you normally only get 3 Respecs, do you really want to waste them so hastily, when you can test it out multiple times in the Training Room with only one Respec, saving the others for times of need or boredom? Of course not. And so, the Copy Tool for the Test Server copies your character, respecs and all, so that you may fiddle with the options and not have to make an entirely uninformed choice. All done without fear of screwing over your Live character.
While the primary purpose of the Test Server is not this, it's definitely a good reason to use it. The idea applies to the Patron Pools, as well.
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Why would it be wrong to have this need fulfilled in a different way than the Test server? A trial period in-game would do the same thing.
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Do you really want your permanent characters messed with in such a way?
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I think how Posi was saying it was that the Patron pools are tied to content thus not making it easy to just switch pools/content. But the content in these pools arent required but they are still tied to the pools in case you did (and I doubt people will just skip arc's because I know the 40-50 arcs will have some memorable things, just like CoH had)
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That's certainly one way to read it. As it stands, we don't know if the patron unlocks a power pool AND optional missions, or if the patron gives missions and the missions unlock the powers, or what.
When Posi said you don't have to do any of the patron content, he was answering a guy who said his character would never, ever take a patron. Not doing the content sounds to me like skipping the whole deal, powers, missions and all. But I could well be wrong.
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You're working off of pure assumption
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Err, not pure assumption, but some hypothesizing based on the track record of the company. He's got some bias, but he's not crazy. His interpretation is about as valid as anyone else's. Well, except for the "wait and see - it'll be all right" crowd. 'Wait and see' is fair advice, but it doesn't have the sterling success rate one might think. The devs are pretty darn good at responding to actual feedback, not thumb-twiddling.
Revolver has said his piece and moved on now. I'm sure we'll all see some new info next week.
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I'm just saying it's a bit difficult to reply with actual feedback that could be considered helpful when the feedback isn't based on factual knowledge. And posting an opinion based on past occurrences or based on likelihoods is like a right handed dart player tossing at the board with his left hand. Sure, he might get lucky, but the delivery is just too dependent on unknowns.
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To be fair, this was a thread started by a Dev on a message board. It is here for us to discuss the information the thread gave us. It's not really our fault there isn't much information. All we can talk about is what we were given.
I'm still looking forward to this and think it is a good thing. But the "permanant" part is worth discussing. Again...we can only talk about the part we know about. If we don't, there would be no reason for this thread to exist.
I can't see having to do four or more missions to get powers.
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...
But it doesn't matter how it works! What if I decide, for example, that I actually hate the way Scorpion's Mace looks with my character?
Now I'm screwed in the A. What the damn Mace does doesn't make any difference.
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Then you have the choice of not using the mace and just using normal pools (just like heroes.)
I'm 99% postive that the reason this isn't respecable is that it ties into your badge/souvenir rewards for the Patron Story Arc.
You do the story arc (now the *history* of your character) you have officially pissed off all of the other patrons and only the one you picked will be your sugar-daddy.
A decision with a consequence! My gosh!
How CoV where if you fail a mission, the contact tells you to take a hike and won't *ever* talk to you again?
I'm quite happy to see it, myself.
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Now that's an assumption. I've never seen the devs say that you get a generic ancillary pool if you don't go with a patron. If you mean that a person who chooses not to consume this content is stuck with just their basic four pools then I don't think that's a good idea.
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I never mentioned a generic ancillary pool at all, I just mentioned that you don't have to pick the powers from your sugar-daddy if you don't want to.
It really does make sense *story-wise* that after you've committed to be Ghost Widow's lackey/henchman/whatever that the other patrons are going to consider you an enemy and won't give you squat.
Still here, even after all this time!
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I think the fact that we're tied to them at all is reason enough to debate the systems merits. I don't really care what they do, to be honest.
The rest of the design doesn't make any difference. It's pretty obvious that once you pick a patron, you're stuck with them.
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I wonder if this is necessary because the Patron choice will heavily dictate how the game plays for you? You might be playing completely different from someone who choose a different Patron. Sounds kinda cool in that you could get a different experience every time you went through lvl 40-50.
This might make teaming a problem though...hmmm...just thinking out loud here.
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I'm still looking forward to this and think it is a good thing. But the "permanant" part is worth discussing. Again...we can only talk about the part we know about. If we don't, there would be no reason for this thread to exist.
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I'm not too crazy about the 'truly permanent' part either. Seriously.
So, cross-over... will not be available after 40? I can't see a redeemed villain, a hero, calling up Mako, "Hey, yeah... what's that next thing I'm supposed to do?"
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Anyway, I'm trying to look at the broader picture now. They can't be respecced out of because they're tied to the content. They're tied to the content because this will absolutely slaughter any Portal Corp courtyard, Wolf-farming, Dreck-herding equivalent in CoV. If people PL to 50, they will bypass the story arcs that give them their patron powers. Four patrons, with no way to respec out of one and into the other, means four seperate end games that you can't play on the same character - there's the 'can't see everything on one toon' design principle that we've seen before.
I'm 99% convinced that that's what all this is really about. It's been designed this way as a PLing disincentive.
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I like this idea. I've always said there are better ways to stop PL'ing than nerfing the crap out of everything. Much smarter to ask yourself WHY people are PL'ing and give them reasons not to want to do it.
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If the powers are unlocked by mission content, and that's a big if, then they'll likely fall into the usual 40-45 45-50 division.
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I'd say unlocking new powers via missions is anything but the "usual" so I don't see why the level range for the missions would be the "usual" either...
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I think it's an all or nothing content. You talk to Arbitor Rein, make your choice do the patron content and now you have your patron power pool. You don't have to actually *take* any power, but you can at level 41.
Oh, and that means the content will have to be level 40 for sure, as you get a new power at 41.
Still here, even after all this time!
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It really does make sense *story-wise* that after you've committed to be Ghost Widow's lackey/henchman/whatever that the other patrons are going to consider you an enemy and won't give you squat.
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This is reinforced by the lack of love (or even "like") between the signature four (which may even extend to Numero Uno). It's bad enough that they don't trust one another. It definitely brings along the question of "Why would they trust someone who was sided with an enemy not even moments before?"
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The counter-argument will always be "But I don't want to lackey to them!" So... don't? "Co-exist" with them and mooch off of what they know/have like a good villain. You'll get your chances to fight the other three (if I remember correctly) and possibly Lord Recluse and Statesman. If you're such a good RPer, you can always say "I destroyed Arachnos... but I spared so-and-so (whoever you sided with), because they still have some use for me."
It's not like you'll ever be able to overthrow Arachnos or rule the world, in-game, anyhow. I guess that breaks immersion and one's ability to RP, just like the rest of the missions you take up. If you can ignore half of that for RP purposes, eventually sitting yourself in Mercy, having succeeded in dominating the planet (or those undercover demons of hell residing under the Atlas statue handing out influence to newbies after having supposedly exterminated mankind), then you can do it here, as well.
While I don't like the permanent part of the Patron Power Pool thing, it's not really worth stressing yourself over it.
I do like how we can respec in CoH out of any of our power choices.
But I dont like giving one faction a major advantage over the other.
If I am to choose a patron that I will like for both pve and pvp Im
going to wait till I hit lvl 50 before making my choice. On my way
to 50 Im going to have to try different patron pools out on test
and different pools.
So , Im not going to have any new powers until lvl 50. Im not
going to have any more slots available until lvl 50. Im not looking
forward to i7 right now.
I understand that implementing a respec into the patron sets
would in turn mean that you where an apprentice for X even
though you have learned all of Ys skills/powers. Doesnt make
sense.
But how about this Posi. At anytime a villain can choose to tell
his contact person that he no longer wishes to support them
and now that contact will no longer talk to you. Now you
have to go find another contact to learn your patron from and
what ever missions that others where doing when they were lvl
40, you will be doing them at lvl 48 say? but the mobs lvl will
rise up to yours.
But in order to be able to talk to another contact to start learning
new patron skills you must first proove your self once again
because the new contact thinks you just sat around watching
TV for the last while doing nothing but getting fat. So you must
do the respec trial and which will unlock an option to start
a new contact.
Edit: this is not perfect but its just an idea.
If I really had lots of little code monkeys and a graphics team..
ohhhh weee! *drool* Im sure somone in Cyrptic has dreams
about this also 
Fidens lvl 50 Katana/Regen Scrapper
Scarred Dream lvl 50 Ice/Dark Corrupter
Hephaestus II lvl 40 Fire/Thermal Corrupter
Evolution/Malevolence - Virtue
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I think it's an all or nothing content. You talk to Arbitor Rein, make your choice do the patron content and now you have your patron power pool. You don't have to actually *take* any power, but you can at level 41.
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But it could also be the story arcs that release the powers to you. Positron:
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Because of this, hard numbers are given, in-game, about the powers and what they do before you even choose which arc you wish to partake
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Not 'before you choose your first power' but 'before you decide which arc'. I could be way off here, of course...
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This makes me wonder about something. The Test server is there to help us avoid making power choices?
That seems to admit there is a need for a way avoid mistakes.
[/ QUOTE ]
When you normally only get 3 Respecs, do you really want to waste them so hastily, when you can test it out multiple times in the Training Room with only one Respec, saving the others for times of need or boredom? Of course not. And so, the Copy Tool for the Test Server copies your character, respecs and all, so that you may fiddle with the options and not have to make an entirely uninformed choice. All done without fear of screwing over your Live character.
While the primary purpose of the Test Server is not this, it's definitely a good reason to use it. The idea applies to the Patron Pools, as well.
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Why would it be wrong to have this need fulfilled in a different way than the Test server? A trial period in-game would do the same thing.
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Do you really want your permanent characters messed with in such a way?
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No "messing". Just the same thing you do on the Test server. It's not wrong to do it on the Test server...so why not just have it in the game? Something like a few hours before the power choice becomes truly permanant. Again...this is not a bad thing because it is actually suggested that you do this on the Test server.
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This just ignores reality. Positron stated that the choice is TRULY permanent
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Yes, I'm not saying otherwise. I'm saying that we don't know what it is we'd be permanently committing TO yet. A pool of four powers? Six? Eight? Preset, in a given order, or fluid? Like the hero ancillary powers, or not?
I've shifted my position a bit now, anyway. I'm pretty much convinced it's all about removing the incentive to PL.
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I truly hope your guess turns out to be wrong. Because if it turns out to be correct, their method for detering power leveling will also kill off people wanting to team. It is happening now, with certain elements of the game. Folks close to certain cutoff levels, declining teams for fear of outleveling certain contacts which provide certain desired missions (for accolades, badges, temp powers etc).
Imagine trying to build a team when all the responses to your requests for teaming are "I'm sorry, I am working on my patron missions, and am close to level 42, I don't want to miss my lv 41 power."
repeat previous canned response again and substitute lv 41 and 42 with 44/45, 47/48, and finally 49/50.
Assuming of course there are four patron powers gained at the same levels as the Heroic counterpart epic powers, but you get my drift.
As a side note, I find that I avoid teaming at certain times for this same reason, to not miss out on something I've been working towards for a while. Fortunately for me, I have alts that are 45+ which are free from the burden of the "I will outlevel XYZ content", so when a friend really wants me to hang out with them, I swap to an alt and exemp down, thereby not gaining any XP. (Which I don't mind doing, in fact I enjoy it.)
"All that crap is grey to me, no XP." - Positron 5/15/05 8:36am . . . The world stopped and silence ensued except for the sound of a crying infant off in the distance.
"Everyone needs to chill the hell out." - BackAlleyBrawler 11/13/08 3:26pm . . . Geeks around the world stopped and blinked.
Before you read the rest of this, please take this grain of salt.....
Okay, now, here's a little more info from over on the UK forums, where this is also being discussed:
In response to this comment from a poster:
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I'd very strongly think that we will have more than 4 choices even per AT, 4 is too limiting if you can not change the pool at all.
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Bridger, the UK board mod, said this:
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I believe that each Patron offers four powers to each AT (in the same way that each Ancillary pool for heroes offers four powers).
As Positron has said, the choice of Patron is permanent, but I see no reason why you won't be able to change the actual powers you choose to take via a respec - your choice of Primary and Secondary power sets is permanent, but you can change the powers you choose from those sets via a respec.
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Now, since you took the grain of salt, you are hereby forced to recognize that Bridger is not the final authority on this, and therefore, his answer should not be treated as rock-solid fact. However, he is more likely to have the correct final info than most of us here, so his answer is notable....
Enjoy
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I believe that each Patron offers four powers to each AT (in the same way that each Ancillary pool for heroes offers four powers).
As Positron has said, the choice of Patron is permanent, but I see no reason why you won't be able to change the actual powers you choose to take via a respec - your choice of Primary and Secondary power sets is permanent, but you can change the powers you choose from those sets via a respec.
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Now, since you took the grain of salt, you are hereby forced to recognize that Bridger is not the final authority on this, and therefore, his answer should not be treated as rock-solid fact. However, he is more likely to have the correct final info than most of us here, so his answer is notable....
Enjoy
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Salt's bad for you... but each patron has a set of powers for each AT? Very interesting...
Oh, good find.
*takes out tent and prepares for warfare flames from others*
This space is intentionally left blank.
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takes out tent and prepares for warfare flames from others
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Um....tents are flammable......so, good luck with that then
its a...steel reinforced tent..yeah, thats right
*shifty eyes and slowly walks out*
This space is intentionally left blank.
I'm probably just going to skip the patron powers now 
There's nothing I hate more than getting powers I am stuck with for forever and watching them get nerfed. The devs have already ruined my fire/fire tank and ar/dev blaster, I will not allow them to do the same thing to my fire/kin in CoV.
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We dont know what is contained in the Patron pools yet, how many powers exist, how similar they are to each Patron, etc...so its difficult to debate for now until we see it on Test to form our opinions on it.
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No that's incorrect. My concern is that the choice is permanent. I don't care if every pool was the identical but with different colors (it won't be), what I'm concerned about is that it's a permanent choice.
I just think that it is a bad idea to gate an ancillary pool this way and think the devs should offer the generic ancillary pools that heroes have access to on the side.
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I'd like that too, but I really doubt the devs will do it. If they make non-Patron APPs availble, I imagine lots of people are going to just avoid the Patron Power's and their related arcs and content. I doubt the devs want that to happen.
Personally, I think I'll just team with people doing to the missions to see what they are like, but I just can't accept a pool I can't change. Not when power changes are so frequent, and documentation of changes is so poor.
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
Wile
Slagheap
Pressure Wave
Rhiannon Bel
Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
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We dont know what is contained in the Patron pools yet, how many powers exist, how similar they are to each Patron, etc...so its difficult to debate for now until we see it on Test to form our opinions on it.
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No that's incorrect. My concern is that the choice is permanent. I don't care if every pool was the identical but with different colors (it won't be), what I'm concerned about is that it's a permanent choice.
I just think that it is a bad idea to gate an ancillary pool this way and think the devs should offer the generic ancillary pools that heroes have access to on the side.
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I'd like that too, but I really doubt the devs will do it. If they make non-Patron APPs availble, I imagine lots of people are going to just avoid the Patron Power's and their related arcs and content. I doubt the devs want that to happen.
Personally, I think I'll just team with people doing to the missions to see what they are like, but I just can't accept a pool I can't change. Not when power changes are so frequent, and documentation of changes is so poor.
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I agree that's what would happen, but consider that. Is having the patron pools being this permanent choice that good an idea if many people would bypass it if given another choice to give an ancillary pool?
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
I just wanted to point out and say how much I truely hate this posting of information on Friday then packing up and heading home for the weekend scenario that always seems to happen. Then picking up the pieces on Monday morning.
Yeah but.... there are no hard numbers in MMO's. Sure, the power might do X damage in a Y radius sphere this week. Next week, after a patch, it might do X-10 damage in a Y+3 radius sphere. For me, no big deal. I trust you guys to keep my powers pretty well balanced. For the min/max'ers, though, that MUST have the most uber powers at all times, this is horrific.
You're going to need some sort of patron respec (patron betrayal (sp?)?) or you're going to have to suffer through unending masses of "my character is now totally useless!" posts/pm's.