[ QUOTE ]
Patron Powers are truly permanent. This powerset, once chosen, is as much a part of your character as your Name, Primary Powerset, Secondary Powerset, Body Type, and Origin.
There is currently no way for us to let you re-spec out of them and into a different one. This is because it is tied to specific content for that Patron.
Because of this, hard numbers are given, in-game, about the powers and what they do before you even choose which arc you wish to partake (and will most likely be available on the website as well).
[/ QUOTE ]
This makes positively no sense whatsoever.
Why?
Because it's not true for Heroes.
Several times now changes to the game have made it worthwhile to me to re-evaluate the EPPs I chose on my heroes. There is no tie-in on the hero side to any patron. You chose the EPPs at will, each time you respec.
I am extremely disappointed that this is not an option on the villain side. I honestly don't care at all that its tied to content. I consider that an eggregious mistake on your parts.
Our characters are our toys. They are for us to play with, not you. More options are good, not less.
Take this back to the drawing board. It's a bad idea.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
Patron Powers are truly permanent. This powerset, once chosen, is as much a part of your character as your Name, Primary Powerset, Secondary Powerset, Body Type, and Origin.
There is currently no way for us to let you re-spec out of them and into a different one. This is because it is tied to specific content for that Patron.
Because of this, hard numbers are given, in-game, about the powers and what they do before you even choose which arc you wish to partake (and will most likely be available on the website as well).
[/ QUOTE ]
Still, this is a VERY bad thing. Whynot have the power open up as you compete the arcs? Or just suspens beleif and allow respecs - theya re momentous events in and of themselves.
Unfoturnately, its far too late for things to go back to the drawing board. They've created the content, created the powers, and now we're going to be stuck with it. The odds of a change to something like this happening are very, very low based on past history.
They've been heavily promoting I7 the last few weeks, they aren't going to make fundamental design changes too it at this point. I'd love to be wrong, but I doubt I will be.
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
Wile
Slagheap
Pressure Wave
Rhiannon Bel
Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Patron Powers are truly permanent. This powerset, once chosen, is as much a part of your character as your Name, Primary Powerset, Secondary Powerset, Body Type, and Origin.
There is currently no way for us to let you re-spec out of them and into a different one. This is because it is tied to specific content for that Patron.
Because of this, hard numbers are given, in-game, about the powers and what they do before you even choose which arc you wish to partake (and will most likely be available on the website as well).
[/ QUOTE ]
This makes positively no sense whatsoever.
Why?
Because it's not true for Heroes.
Several times now changes to the game have made it worthwhile to me to re-evaluate the EPPs I chose on my heroes. There is no tie-in on the hero side to any patron. You chose the EPPs at will, each time you respec.
I am extremely disappointed that this is not an option on the villain side. I honestly don't care at all that its tied to content. I consider that an eggregious mistake on your parts.
Our characters are our toys. They are for us to play with, not you. More options are good, not less.
Take this back to the drawing board. It's a bad idea.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, if they added "patron" arcs and four-five patrons on the hero side, I'd really be tempted to pick one, as that means my character was basically a serious side-kick to one of the FP.
And that would be cool.
Still here, even after all this time!
[ QUOTE ]
Unfoturnately, its far too late for things to go back to the drawing board. They've created the content, created the powers, and now we're going to be stuck with it. The odds of a change to something like this happening are very, very low based on past history.
They've been heavily promoting I7 the last few weeks, they aren't going to make fundamental design changes too it at this point. I'd love to be wrong, but I doubt I will be.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. Makes me wonder why they even put this stuff on test considering they will not change it no matter what kind of feedback they recieve. It really is a shame too, they get a bunch of new and old subscribers by introducing CoV then go and do something like this that will most likely cause those people that returned to leave again once they get frustrated over "balance" changes made to their powers that they have to keep forever.
[ QUOTE ]
See how he says currently there is no way to allow us to respec out of them?
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Yes, and I also see 'truly permanent' and 'part of your character'.
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I read this thread and was disgusted, Clint. It's an entire thread of people acting like jagoffs, whether it's about lack of information about patron powers, the inability to change them, or even typos. Game balance, nerfs, devs, fanboys, trolls or not, I take exception to that as a forum reader. If you want to condone that because you suddenly find yourself at odds with the devs, that's your choice to make.
[/ QUOTE ]
Welcome to the black pot and kettle staging area.
Until today, I never felt compelled to ignore you. Now I will never again know what you say, and it relieves me. Goodbye.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
See how he says currently there is no way to allow us to respec out of them?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, and I also see 'truly permanent' and 'part of your character'.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes but what is your point? My point is that they are just being lazy by not figuring out a way for us to respec out of these patron powers, I'm not arguing about the fact that they are permanent. Thinking up a new way of getting people their APP's is not lazy, adding unique story arcs tied to patrons is not lazy, causing these powers to be permanent just because the game isn't currently programmed to allow these powers to be changed is lazy.
From how I see it, making a decision as big as this isnt the only one they thought of. I'm pretty sure the devs have minds similar to us to know that we may not like it but they must have found a major reason to do it that way instead of just allowing us to change factions freely.
We'll see when it hits test on just how far "truly permanent" goes. In the mean time, alot of this discussion is nigh meaningless since none of us have all the info on how they will work. Just some words by a dev that we assume is a certian way.
This space is intentionally left blank.
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Yes, and I also see 'truly permanent' and 'part of your character'.
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Yes but what is your point?
[/ QUOTE ]
My point is that those are clearly design intentions, not side-effects.
[ QUOTE ]
My point is that they are just being lazy by not figuring out a way for us to respec out of these patron powers,
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think they ever intended to, any more than they intend to let us respec out of our primaries and secondaries. 'Currently no way' sounds diplomatic to me.
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, if they added "patron" arcs and four-five patrons on the hero side, I'd really be tempted to pick one, as that means my character was basically a serious side-kick to one of the FP.
And that would be cool.
[/ QUOTE ]
Futurias, I can appreciate that you would love this. However, it removes choice. You (and others) like that the choice is meaningful. I (and others) don't like that that "meaning" takes away choice.
Personally, I would never ask for something in this game that would actively remove choice from other players with opinions different from mine. Not unless it was a clear violation of a core mechanic such as leveling speed; in other words an exploit or bug.
I'll give you a prefect example. On my Regen Scrapper I have focused accuracy. I have some fear that once I7 is out and we can use EPPs in PvP that FA will be nerfed. FA is the only reason I have the Body Mastery APP on that character. If it is nerfed I will probably go for Dark Mastery instead.
Yes, we don't know how many powers or whatnot are in the PPPs. However, because Redname comments have equated PPPs to EPPs, assuming they will work similarly in terms of power pool choice nature is an educated guess; a reasonable assumption.
I am, for one, not someone who has complained about CoV being "too like" CoH. It's different content and the ATs don't play exactlly the same. It's different enough for me. I'd actually appreciate some similarity in the PPPs and EPPs.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Suggestion: give us temp powers that exactly duplicate the patron powers and are limited by time and charges, so we can test them out before making a commitment.
[ QUOTE ]
The patron is set because of a story-arc where you choose one patron above all the other. The fact that you can't unpick a patron is because it's now part of your *history*.
You keep harping on this like it's some kind of conclusive proof. It's not. It's not even relevant.
People betray patrons and switch factions all the time in the real world. Shifting alliances are a permanent feature of any political situation. It is even possible for (e.g.) Fred to betray Barney to Wilma, then betray Wilma to Barney and end up working for Barney again. History is rife with the stories of double and triple agents. There have even been people who managed to screw everyone in the domain of discourse and gotten away with it, or even ended up in charge. Arachnos would not only be no different, it has actually been shown to be a breeding ground for cutthroat politics.
Locking players into their initial choice of patron is not logically necessary. It is a fiat decision, and it is a bad one.
[/ QUOTE ]
Quite right and this decision makes no sense considering our history up to that point. Up to this point you have been out for yourself if you do most of the content.
I've killed thousands of Arachnos agents simply because they would know too much. What really loyalty should my character or any other have to Ghost Widow, Sirocco, etc. Of course we might accept their patronage to our own ends, but when the mood or conditions are right, betraying the fools would be in our villain's interests.
That's just the RP justification for why I think we need an out. That aside, like Venture said earlier, designing in a permanent choice like this is just a bad decision. It's going to cause no end of grief.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Unfoturnately, its far too late for things to go back to the drawing board. They've created the content, created the powers, and now we're going to be stuck with it. The odds of a change to something like this happening are very, very low based on past history.
They've been heavily promoting I7 the last few weeks, they aren't going to make fundamental design changes too it at this point. I'd love to be wrong, but I doubt I will be.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. Makes me wonder why they even put this stuff on test considering they will not change it no matter what kind of feedback they recieve. It really is a shame too, they get a bunch of new and old subscribers by introducing CoV then go and do something like this that will most likely cause those people that returned to leave again once they get frustrated over "balance" changes made to their powers that they have to keep forever.
[/ QUOTE ]
The test server isnt for our feedback on design decisions. Never has been. Its there for Cryptic to get a wider amount of test data than their in-house testers can provide. And because the agreement between PlayNC and Cryptic requires a Test Server if I recall correctly.
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
Wile
Slagheap
Pressure Wave
Rhiannon Bel
Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
You aren't looking at it from the fact that this is the result of completing your Patron story arc. That means they are giving you a badge/souvenir for completing it.
Which is utterly meaningless.
Badges can't be *undone* with the current technology. They are permanent part of your history, what you have done.
So? I have a badge that says I signed on with Ghost Widow. Then I betray her and join Sirocco. Now I have two badges. Collect the whole set.
Souvenirs are even less meaningful, since no one but the owner can see them.
Also, it's false that badges can't be undone. If you cash in your CoH earned respec, your badge changes. If the Patron badges aren't implemented the same way -- the Patron badge changing to reflect your current allegiance -- that's because the devs chose not to do so.
And that's why the patron powers are permanent, because they are tied to that history.
That is simply no excuse.
Actually, if they added "patron" arcs and four-five patrons on the hero side, I'd really be tempted to pick one, as that means my character was basically a serious side-kick to one of the FP.
Considering that the FP have been portrayed as a bunch of incompetent jerks, I can't see why anyone would want their character to be a second fiddle to one. I'm not happy about having a "Freedom Phalanx Reserve Member" accolade -- my main wants nothing to do with those people, he thinks they're a bunch of dangerous would-be dictators with delusions of godhood. He only did the "Hero's Hero" arc because the Praetorians are even more dangerous.
Your entire argument is predicated on the notion that it is "cool" for player choices to have permanent consequences. From a pragmatic (as opposed to aesthetic) perspective, that argument is without merit. Future changes to the game, even changes not directly related to the choice at hand, can invalidate player choices, thus those choices should be provisional insofar as it is practical to do so. Since this entire system has been implemented from scratch, there is no excuse for Patron choices to be permanent. If the developers have painted themselves into a corner with a short-sighted implementation, they have no one to blame but themselves when the players tell them how much the system stinks.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
[ QUOTE ]
You aren't looking at it from the fact that this is the result of completing your Patron story arc. That means they are giving you a badge/souvenir for completing it.
Which is utterly meaningless.
Badges can't be *undone* with the current technology. They are permanent part of your history, what you have done.
So? I have a badge that says I signed on with Ghost Widow. Then I betray her and join Sirocco. Now I have two badges. Collect the whole set.
Souvenirs are even less meaningful, since no one but the owner can see them.
Also, it's false that badges can't be undone. If you cash in your CoH earned respec, your badge changes. If the Patron badges aren't implemented the same way -- the Patron badge changing to reflect your current allegiance -- that's because the devs chose not to do so.
[/ QUOTE ]
I believe this also caused problems in CoV with an unlockable contact.
[ QUOTE ]
And that's why the patron powers are permanent, because they are tied to that history.
That is simply no excuse.
Actually, if they added "patron" arcs and four-five patrons on the hero side, I'd really be tempted to pick one, as that means my character was basically a serious side-kick to one of the FP.
Considering that the FP have been portrayed as a bunch of incompetent jerks, I can't see why anyone would want their character to be a second fiddle to one. I'm not happy about having a "Freedom Phalanx Reserve Member" accolade -- my main wants nothing to do with those people, he thinks they're a bunch of dangerous would-be dictators with delusions of godhood. He only did the "Hero's Hero" arc because the Praetorians are even more dangerous.
Your entire argument is predicated on the notion that it is "cool" for player choices to have permanent consequences. From a pragmatic (as opposed to aesthetic) perspective, that argument is without merit. Future changes to the game, even changes not directly related to the choice at hand, can invalidate player choices, thus those choices should be provisional insofar as it is practical to do so. Since this entire system has been implemented from scratch, there is no excuse for Patron choices to be permanent. If the developers have painted themselves into a corner with a short-sighted implementation, they have no one to blame but themselves when the players tell them how much the system stinks.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, except it's only *some* of the players that think that. And CoV already has consequences for choice and failures.
If I was one of the patrons and I just heard her #2 flunky was wanting to defect I'd accept that gleefully, kill/inconvience her and *then* kill you for surity.
I mean, you already betrayed one patron, right? What's to stop you from doing it again?
Still here, even after all this time!
I believe this also caused problems in CoV with an unlockable contact.
Which was fixed.
Well, except it's only *some* of the players that think that.
And that makes it right to force Freedom Phalanx association down all of their throats?
And CoV already has consequences for choice and failures.
Not in any meanginful sense.
If I was one of the patrons and I just heard her #2 flunky was wanting to defect I'd accept that gleefully, kill/inconvience her and *then* kill you for surity.
I mean, you already betrayed one patron, right? What's to stop you from doing it again?
Ever play Diplomacy?
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
I see so many post saying "Why not just make it like the heroes EPP's."
So what your saying is,you want the villians to be IDENTICAL to heroes.I say no to that,that's exactly why they are villians,and not heroes.
[ QUOTE ]
I see so many post saying "Why not just make it like the heroes EPP's."
So what your saying is,you want the villians to be IDENTICAL to heroes.I say no to that,that's exactly why they are villians,and not heroes.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry but that doesn't make any sense. Of course, heroes and villains are different, but in other ways they are the same. In the comics superpowers aren't delineated by whether you're evil or good. There are people with Super Strenght on both side, Flight on both sides, etc.
This is not a place where it's necessary or desirable to have a difference between heroes and villains.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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[ QUOTE ]
I see so many post saying "Why not just make it like the heroes EPP's."
So what your saying is,you want the villians to be IDENTICAL to heroes.I say no to that,that's exactly why they are villians,and not heroes.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry but that doesn't make any sense. Of course, heroes and villains are different, but in other ways they are the same. In the comics superpowers are delineated by whether you're evil or good. There are people with Super Strenght on both side, Flight on both sides, etc.
This is not a place where it's necessary or desirable to have a difference between heroes and villains.
[/ QUOTE ]
All i'm saying is that I like the PP idea.I know the trolls and fanboys will yell at me for saying that but I really couldn't care less what they think or anyone else for that matter.If you wanna try the PP,use the Test Server.If you don't want to try them,choose other powers or just don't play,Simple as that.
[ QUOTE ]
I see so many post saying "Why not just make it like the heroes EPP's."
So what your saying is,you want the villians to be IDENTICAL to heroes.I say no to that,that's exactly why they are villians,and not heroes.
[/ QUOTE ]
I wonder if they have plans for patrons for heroes.
[ QUOTE ]
I see so many post saying "Why not just make it like the heroes EPP's."
So what your saying is,you want the villians to be IDENTICAL to heroes.I say no to that,that's exactly why they are villians,and not heroes.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think anyone has said 'make them identical'. I believe we were asking for the process to be identical: the player, not the game designer, chooses epic powers and can respec out of any or all of them if they wish.
The coding is in place for this. What needed to be done was simply to add the CoV powers to the code, alter a few variables and voila, done.
Instead, we have a system forcing a permanent choice AND one that directly attacks our own character concepts---because either a: someone on the Dev Team thought it would be cool or b: they want to stop powerleveling (again, even though it won't work and can't be done).
So your counter-point doesn't address any of these problems and offer any solutions---except the one already insinuated by the Dev Team: like it or get out. That's why you were told it makes no sense.
Cal2
[ QUOTE ]
This thread is barely 24 hrs old and is already 34 pages long......you'd think this would send a message to the devs. 
[/ QUOTE ]
What message? That's there's a small group of players who get hysterical over incomplete information and post multiple times?
Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides
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This thread is barely 24 hrs old and is already 34 pages long......you'd think this would send a message to the devs.
[/ QUOTE ]
What message? That's there's a small group of players who get hysterical over incomplete information and post multiple times?
[/ QUOTE ]
Rampant speculation can be fun!
Also, it's only 19 pages for me.
Here and here. See how he says currently there is no way to allow us to respec out of them? That makes me believe they are not against it, only that it would be difficult for them to program a way of doing so in-game. That seems lazy to me.
Edit: screwed up my links