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Oh yes EvilGeko, because your opinion is so not valid. We're always right. 
Jeez, all we are saying is to get a better opinion is to wait until it is on Test because we dont know full details. Is that an evil thing to say?
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But whatever goes on test is IRRELEVANT. We know your choice of patron is permanent. So discussing that cannot be premature.
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But what if there's enough powers in each set so that almost anything is possible? The set is permanent, but what if there's enough powers in the set that are respeccable?
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It really doesn't matter. So long as there are differences (either effectiveness or cosmetic) between the Patron Pools, and there will be, then a permanent choice is a bad decision.
I don't say this off the top of my head. I've played about ten MMOs and five seriously and in everyone where you get a choice of power or attribute that's permanent, it causes problems. Most have been detailed in this thread. Few people are ever happy with such a choice.
I think developers like the idea because for them it forces the character down a certain RP path. It also forces diversity because at least some people have to be the pioneers and choose first. Developers tend not to like people being able to change with the wind. BUT, many players hate being locked in to a particular choice. Most people don't mind paying their way out, see WoWs and EQ2 paid respecs. But people like that out.
This is a choice the devs have made. I promise you this issue will not go away until people have some choice. I may not bring it up, but others will. People will be calling it a dead horse around I8, but it still won't go away. Like many other hard fought issues people are going to complain and complain. I promise you this will come to pass. It's so unncessary too. There is a reason that modern games don't go down this road. There is no reason CoV needs to.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
It's also worth pointing out that people like the option of change even if they never use it. Players are more likely to be confident and make the choices they really want when they know that they can change their minds if they have to. This results in them being happyer with their choices even if they never actually use the respec.
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I believe in the devs! This'll turn out fiiiiine!
Either that or I'll have the entire game to myself when everyone quits. 
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*chuckle*
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This just ignores reality. Positron stated that the choice is TRULY permanent
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Yes, I'm not saying otherwise. I'm saying that we don't know what it is we'd be permanently committing TO yet. A pool of four powers? Six? Eight? Preset, in a given order, or fluid? Like the hero ancillary powers, or not?
I've shifted my position a bit now, anyway. I'm pretty much convinced it's all about removing the incentive to PL.
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Well, there's that and the mixed signals we've sent to the devs that many of us want to feel more tied into the overall game narrative.
I don't like the truly permanent bit either, really. But... Bridger said on the EU forums...
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I believe that each Patron offers four powers to each AT (in the same way that each Ancillary pool for heroes offers four powers).
As Positron has said, the choice of Patron is permanent, but I see no reason why you won't be able to change the actual powers you choose to take via a respec - your choice of Primary and Secondary power sets is permanent, but you can change the powers you choose from those sets via a respec.
As far as a I know, you do not have to choose a Patron.
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Does this mean that each patron has five seperate pools within it, one for each AT, with four powers in each AT specific set? So, the patron isn't changable, but the powers within are?
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Its a lazy decision from the devs. Really lazy.
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Given that it's obviously taken special effort to make it like this (they could have just done exactly what they did with CoH and made a set of ancillary power pools) I don't think laziness is the problem.
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I'm gonna hop into the not-so-wayback-machine and take a look at all the "CoV Power Sets are just like the CoH ones. The Devs are Lazy." posts and threads.
My conlustion: We'd be having a near identical whine-fest from the usuall suspects.
Yue guys really need to get a new schitck. 
NCIS: Best gorram show in the 'verse.
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It's also worth pointing out that people like the option of change even if they never use it. Players are more likely to be confident and make the choices they really want when they know that they can change their minds if they have to. This results in them being happyer with their choices even if they never actually use the respec.
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I agree. I had planned on going with Ghost Widow no matter what anyway for RP purposes on my villain main and I still will, but I would still like the choice to be there.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Lady, I think you read Posi's comment a little off. From how I see it, what he says about the not forced to do Patron content, I think he means You dont have to do the missions associated with them but can still choose the powers.
I could be wrong but I dont think he was trying to say you dont get access to Patron powers at all if you dont do the missions.
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I'm leaning with Sadako's read on this and thinking that the PPPs are tied to at least receiving the first mission of Patron content. It may be like the Hollows where you can outlevel some of the Patron 41-50 storyarcs. It'll be interesting to see what other content is available if one chooses to skip Patron storyarcs - i.e., are there any other contacts in the Patron zone (I may be distracted, but I missed where the Patron contacts will be. Probably Grandville.), or is it just generic newspaper missions and Patron arcs.
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If you're doing it with SGmates, you could have them take screenshots of the debriefings and clues and put them on Photobucket for you.
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Clearly an optimal solution which helps to fully immerse a player in the game.... 
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This thread is barely 24 hrs old and is already 34 pages long......you'd think this would send a message to the devs.
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It sends a message that you're one of those people operating off of default forum display settings?
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Really? Are you sure they didn't just tie the patron powers to content on purpose and by doing so incidentally locked the powers into your character once you've chosen them?
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Well, yes I am sure. I don't see any reason to believe that permanent, non-respeccable power pool choices were somehow a whoopsy-daisy side effect. Come on, they know how big a deal this is.
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I agree with Sadako. This "devs are lazy" meme is always a non-starter digression. Agree or disagree with the design choices or philosophy. Personal criticisms that requires actual interaction with the subject to assess is fanfic as far as I'm concerned. Wrong section for fanfic.
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Its a lazy decision from the devs. Really lazy.
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Given that it's obviously taken special effort to make it like this (they could have just done exactly what they did with CoH and made a set of ancillary power pools) I don't think laziness is the problem.
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I'm gonna hop into the not-so-wayback-machine and take a look at all the "CoV Power Sets are just like the CoH ones. The Devs are Lazy." posts and threads.
My conlustion: We'd be having a near identical whine-fest from the usuall suspects.
Yue guys really need to get a new schitck.
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I'm wondering how you could even possible know that. Do you keep a tally of who complains about what? Is that in Excel format or what?
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Here and here. See how he says currently there is no way to allow us to respec out of them? That makes me believe they are not against it, only that it would be difficult for them to program a way of doing so in-game. That seems lazy to me.
Edit: screwed up my links
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You can say that, but it's based on your assumptions and bias. There's a real strained A+B=C logic there. It's not pretty when the 'hip-hip-hooray' people do that, and it's not pretty when the 'grumble-grumble' people do that, either.
Why should I take your judgement over anyone else's? Who are you? (I realize it works both ways - "Who is Clint?")
Just saying.
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I don't like the truly permanent bit either, really. But... Bridger said on the EU forums...
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I believe that each Patron offers four powers to each AT (in the same way that each Ancillary pool for heroes offers four powers).
As Positron has said, the choice of Patron is permanent, but I see no reason why you won't be able to change the actual powers you choose to take via a respec - your choice of Primary and Secondary power sets is permanent, but you can change the powers you choose from those sets via a respec.
As far as a I know, you do not have to choose a Patron.
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Does this mean that each patron has five seperate pools within it, one for each AT, with four powers in each AT specific set? So, the patron isn't changable, but the powers within are?
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Yes, it means each patron offers one (1) pool for each villain AT, for a total of five pools per patron. That total doesnt really matter though, since you can only choose the pool for your AT. I believe we've known this for a little while though, prior to this bit about patron choice being permanent coming to light.
Also, the info that there is only four powers in a pool seems to contradict the speculation that each pool may be so wide open with a variety of power choices that each pool will essentially have the same things in it.
This just confirms the bad news to me.
Here's something else to consider. Some villains will have more APPs to choose from then their heroic counterparts. If each AT has a pool for each patron, that means 5 possible pools no? Poor scrappers and their three APPs. 
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
Wile
Slagheap
Pressure Wave
Rhiannon Bel
Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
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Its a lazy decision from the devs. Really lazy.
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Given that it's obviously taken special effort to make it like this (they could have just done exactly what they did with CoH and made a set of ancillary power pools) I don't think laziness is the problem.
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I'm gonna hop into the not-so-wayback-machine and take a look at all the "CoV Power Sets are just like the CoH ones. The Devs are Lazy." posts and threads.
My conlustion: We'd be having a near identical whine-fest from the usuall suspects.
Yue guys really need to get a new schitck.
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I'm wondering how you could even possible know that. Do you keep a tally of who complains about what? Is that in Excel format or what?
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No. It's called experiance.
No matter what the Devs do, someone will complain about it. Sure, the people complaining in this tread currently may not be the ones complaining if the PPP's were just like APP's, but both groups have one thing in common.
They tend to be the ones doing the complaining.
NCIS: Best gorram show in the 'verse.
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Oh yes EvilGeko, because your opinion is so not valid. We're always right.
Jeez, all we are saying is to get a better opinion is to wait until it is on Test because we dont know full details. Is that an evil thing to say?
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But whatever goes on test is IRRELEVANT. We know your choice of patron is permanent. So discussing that cannot be premature.
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But what if there's enough powers in each set so that almost anything is possible? The set is permanent, but what if there's enough powers in the set that are respeccable?
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That'd be interesting, and it's possible, but it's entirely hypothetical. Hard to discuss that scenario for very long seriously, in other words. The precedent of APPs would indicate that it's a hair less likely that PPPs will have a menu of 8-10 powers similar to all the other PPPs, but it is possible.
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No matter what the Devs do, someone will complain about it. Sure, the people complaining in this thread currently may not be the ones complaining if the PPP's were just like APP's, but both groups have one thing in common.
They tend to be the ones doing the complaining.
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Complaining is not inherently bad. Complaining about dev laziness when there is little verifiable evidence is silly, though. I'm sure you agree.
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Really? Are you sure they didn't just tie the patron powers to content on purpose and by doing so incidentally locked the powers into your character once you've chosen them?
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Well, yes I am sure. I don't see any reason to believe that permanent, non-respeccable power pool choices were somehow a whoopsy-daisy side effect. Come on, they know how big a deal this is.
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I agree with Sadako. This "devs are lazy" meme is always a non-starter digression. Agree or disagree with the design choices or philosophy. Personal criticisms that requires actual interaction with the subject to assess is fanfic as far as I'm concerned. Wrong section for fanfic.
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I agree as well. You can disagree with a mechanic without questioning the devs' motives. And the devs whatever their faults may be are not lazy. Understaffed is more like it.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I don't like the truly permanent bit either, really. But... Bridger said on the EU forums...
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I believe that each Patron offers four powers to each AT (in the same way that each Ancillary pool for heroes offers four powers).
As Positron has said, the choice of Patron is permanent, but I see no reason why you won't be able to change the actual powers you choose to take via a respec - your choice of Primary and Secondary power sets is permanent, but you can change the powers you choose from those sets via a respec.
As far as a I know, you do not have to choose a Patron.
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Does this mean that each patron has five seperate pools within it, one for each AT, with four powers in each AT specific set? So, the patron isn't changable, but the powers within are?
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That's what I believe it is.What I thik Positron meant was that you just couldn't choose another Patron after you have chosen one but that you could change the powers in the patrons set for your AT.
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If you're doing it with SGmates, you could have them take screenshots of the debriefings and clues and put them on Photobucket for you.
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Clearly an optimal solution which helps to fully immerse a player in the game....
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Actually, I wish they would put in the option to put the debriefing for the mission in a pop-up window for the team members. It would help bring story to the fore for people who like teaming, but having the option to enable or disable it would work for people who don't care about the text and don't want the extra requirement to dismiss a pop-up.
Grab yourself a bit more salt....here's a bit more info from Bridger over on the UK forums.
One poster stated:
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I thought it would be better if the Patron Powers give each AT powers suitable for them, as opposed to just giving them the same, so basically each Patron has 4*4 powers = 16, 4 each AT...
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And Bridger's reply was:
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That's how I understand it, although there are 5 ATs, so it'll be 5 pools with 4 powers in each pool, as far as I know.
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So, from what Bridger knows, Ghost Widow has one power pool for each AT, with 4 powers in each pool. Scirocco has one power pool for each AT, with 4 powers in each pool. Capt. Mako has one power pool for each AT, with 4 powers in each pool.
And so on, and so on.......
Which would mean that, once you've selected your Patron, you only get to choose from 4 powers.
Again, you took the salt, so you agree to go easy on each other with this info
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It really doesn't matter. So long as there are differences (either effectiveness or cosmetic) between the Patron Pools, and there will be, then a permanent choice is a bad decision.
I don't say this off the top of my head. I've played about ten MMOs and five seriously and in everyone where you get a choice of power or attribute that's permanent, it causes problems. Most have been detailed in this thread. Few people are ever happy with such a choice.
I think developers like the idea because for them it forces the character down a certain RP path. It also forces diversity because at least some people have to be the pioneers and choose first. Developers tend not to like people being able to change with the wind. BUT, many players hate being locked in to a particular choice. Most people don't mind paying their way out, see WoWs and EQ2 paid respecs. But people like that out.
This is a choice the devs have made. I promise you this issue will not go away until people have some choice. I may not bring it up, but others will. People will be calling it a dead horse around I8, but it still won't go away. Like many other hard fought issues people are going to complain and complain. I promise you this will come to pass. It's so unncessary too. There is a reason that modern games don't go down this road. There is no reason CoV needs to.
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The developers have always stated that they wanted some content to be exclusive so that you can't 'try" it all.
And as this is happening near the end of your characters carreer, it is unlikely to heavily affect you if it is "nerfed" either.
What you say? Yes, I said that. Even counter to everyone yelling that it will.
Because when you hit fifty, you really don't have a lot to do with that character. Some (emphamis here) people PvP a lot, but even they can't change their power selecting all the time. Even if the developers found a bug that lowered one of the powers by 5%, they aren't going to offer a respec for that.
Heck, they never offered an AT respec for fixing Smoke Grenade even over the device blasters whines.
Still here, even after all this time!
I believe, if they are pernament, then they need to tell us
about the powers BEFORE we even get there. This way we
can atleast make our power choices, since there are some
who plan their character out at level 1-50.
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Heck, they never offered an AT respec for fixing Smoke Grenade even over the device blasters whines.
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For good reasons, outside of the fact that there are no AT respecs.
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Oh yes EvilGeko, because your opinion is so not valid. We're always right.
Jeez, all we are saying is to get a better opinion is to wait until it is on Test because we dont know full details. Is that an evil thing to say?
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But whatever goes on test is IRRELEVANT. We know your choice of patron is permanent. So discussing that cannot be premature.
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But what if there's enough powers in each set so that almost anything is possible? The set is permanent, but what if there's enough powers in the set that are respeccable?
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But how many powers would that be? Atleast 20? What are the chances that this happens? Also, even if the powers weren't a problem what if the related story was? For example what if certain missions required your character to side with factions that they would normaly refuse?
Edit: Correcting number.