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Sure, but we're already tied to other things in the game, such as our primary, secondary, origin and so forth. I think a lot of the upset here is because a primary and secondary together have plenty of powers in, so if they nerf A you can respec into B or C, whereas a 'pool' has traditionally contained four.
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This is a permanent choice made AFTER we've spent 200-400 hours developing your character. IMO, this is in no way comparable to one's Primary, Secondary or Origin... which are things you can change immediately in the lower levels if you decide they're not for you.
I don't care about the RPing aspects of this. Being locked into something after investing a large amount of time on your character is a bad idea all around. I don't care how other MMOs do it. I don't care if it's "tied to content." I don't care if it's being done to curb PLing. It's implications for post-40 character development are going to screw poeple over in the long run, for one reason or another.
I can almost guarantee this format will change if enough people complain. And they will.
This isn't "doom," nor is this a "Devs dropped the ball" post. It's an honest opinion about a change in the game's design that I honestly feel is a bad one. They're intentions are honorable, but this just isn't going to turn out well.
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Well, thats more or less what I'm driving at. Permanent Patron Powers is a terrible idea. The only way I can see this working is if all the pools have essentially the exact same powers in them, which would make the choice irrelevant from a power's perspective.
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The powerset choice is based on and determined by your patron. But actually taking any powers out of it is based on your level 41/44/47/49 levels.
The patron is set because of a story-arc where you choose one patron above all the other. The fact that you can't unpick a patron is because it's now part of your *history*.
You have to stick with one choice at the end of the game. A choice with a consequence. CoV has a lot more "consequences" than CoH does, to add more flavor to the game.
I was really upset to find out that not interacting with a glowie *before* the insane tech does makes that contact tell me to take a hike, but it was cool because my failure actually impacted me more than just a bit of debt.
I've actually heard a friend complain that because he didn't take one of the combat hostages back to the entrance and it died that he failed a Technician Naylor mission (and won't be talked to again.)
And of course, failing to rescue Naylor from the Nemesis dimension shuts off that contact too.
Consequences.... how *novel*.
Still here, even after all this time!
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So, the only solution I can see is to have a second option available: a way to progress through a completely neutral story-arc/TF that grants epic powers but no NPC master for those of us more concerned with concept and story (our own concepts and stories, I should add).
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DO THIS. Have the standard CoH APPS unlocked from doing a different arc. Hell, you could even add Patron Powers to CoH at some point to balance the two games.
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So, the only solution I can see is to have a second option available: a way to progress through a completely neutral story-arc/TF that grants epic powers but no NPC master for those of us more concerned with concept and story (our own concepts and stories, I should add).
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DO THIS. Have the standard CoH APPS unlocked from doing a different arc. Hell, you could even add Patron Powers to CoH at some point to balance the two games.
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I could totally get behind this, actually.
Of course, it would be nice if the Patron (CoV or CoH) are slightly cooler than regular APPs.
{Edit} But it would have to have a consequence too, that you could not take the Patron Powers later. You basically gave them the finger so you can only try to use "regular" powers.
Still here, even after all this time!
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You have to stick with one choice at the end of the game. A choice with a consequence. CoV has a lot more "consequences" than CoH does, to add more flavor to the game.
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Oh, whee! How wonderful that there are story-based *consequences* for your gameplay-based power selections!
Hey, you know what, all you... Empathy Defenders? You can't do any of the Striga content. Just plain can't. /Emp controllers, too. You want a certain set of powers, you're locked out of content. Reroll or suck it.
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You have to stick with one choice at the end of the game. A choice with a consequence. CoV has a lot more "consequences" than CoH does, to add more flavor to the game.
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Oh, whee! How wonderful that there are story-based *consequences* for your gameplay-based power selections!
Hey, you know what, all you... Empathy Defenders? You can't do any of the Striga content. Just plain can't. /Emp controllers, too. You want a certain set of powers, you're locked out of content. Reroll or suck it.
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Nonsensical. You can play *any* character and choose any patron. You just are stuck with that choice, once you have made it (barring Epic ATs, of course).
You are only being barred from taking the other patrons and their power pool choice.
That's it.
Still here, even after all this time!
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Patron Powers are truly permanent. This powerset, once chosen, is as much a part of your character as your Name, Primary Powerset, Secondary Powerset, Body Type, and Origin.
There is currently no way for us to let you re-spec out of them and into a different one. This is because it is tied to specific content for that Patron.
Because of this, hard numbers are given, in-game, about the powers and what they do before you even choose which arc you wish to partake (and will most likely be available on the website as well).
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Do you think this is even remotly fair to villian characters?
Heros can respec out of their ancilleries if they choose badly. So villians cant. Most villian At's are already considered weaker than their hero counterparts this isnt going to help things.
Its a bad design decision.
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It is possible that COH APP's will be changed to something similar to the COV Patron Powers. If that happens both COV and COH characters will be more balanced.
The fact is that alot of time and money has already spent developing the Patron pools. Balancing in the CoX universe usually means bring powers down to a lower level, not raising powers to match the preceived "better" powers.
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We dont know what is contained in the Patron pools yet, how many powers exist, how similar they are to each Patron, etc...so its difficult to debate for now until we see it on Test to form our opinions on it.
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No that's incorrect. My concern is that the choice is permanent. I don't care if every pool was the identical but with different colors (it won't be), what I'm concerned about is that it's a permanent choice.
I just think that it is a bad idea to gate an ancillary pool this way and think the devs should offer the generic ancillary pools that heroes have access to on the side.
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I'd like that too, but I really doubt the devs will do it. If they make non-Patron APPs availble, I imagine lots of people are going to just avoid the Patron Power's and their related arcs and content. I doubt the devs want that to happen.
Personally, I think I'll just team with people doing to the missions to see what they are like, but I just can't accept a pool I can't change. Not when power changes are so frequent, and documentation of changes is so poor.
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I agree that's what would happen, but consider that. Is having the patron pools being this permanent choice that good an idea if many people would bypass it if given another choice to give an ancillary pool?
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I would go with the Patron Powers for the content and the "Hey <Insert Patron Here> says he don't want you here, so I'm gonna take you out"
I guess the question is, how many people would pick being locked into a patron pool to do the content vs picking a regular APP and not being locked in to it.
My guess is we won't get the option to do the later, out of dev fear that we'll opt to avoid permanent pools and therefore ignore the patron content they spent all this time developing.
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
Wile
Slagheap
Pressure Wave
Rhiannon Bel
Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
Summary:
*no way to test the whole pool unless you're already 49
*Feel of play is more important than numbers.
*Patron powers 
*being permanent 
Just voicing my opinion here.
I don't like the idea. Especially for the impossibility of testing. How do I test it? Go to the test server at 41 and go through a mission or arc 4 different times to test the first power?
Not good. I thought my blaster would be great with the munitions APP. Passive res (good), extra hold (great), AoE sleep (skippable), Long range snipe (yes please).... do I have it? No, because I went with fire, it's way better for me, but it didn't look that way on paper (it was my least favorite).
My point? I had all the numbers for all the APPs and thought I knew what would work...I was wrong. Even if the devs give us all the data for the powers (which I like) that's not enough information to pick the pools.
Plus pools compliment your exisisting power choices, and play style. If you ever change your primary, secondary and power pool picks to suit a different style your patrons powers could no longer fit into your play style.
Please add a betrayal arc or allow to respec the patron powers
The patron is set because of a story-arc where you choose one patron above all the other. The fact that you can't unpick a patron is because it's now part of your *history*.
You keep harping on this like it's some kind of conclusive proof. It's not. It's not even relevant.
People betray patrons and switch factions all the time in the real world. Shifting alliances are a permanent feature of any political situation. It is even possible for (e.g.) Fred to betray Barney to Wilma, then betray Wilma to Barney and end up working for Barney again. History is rife with the stories of double and triple agents. There have even been people who managed to screw everyone in the domain of discourse and gotten away with it, or even ended up in charge. Arachnos would not only be no different, it has actually been shown to be a breeding ground for cutthroat politics.
Locking players into their initial choice of patron is not logically necessary. It is a fiat decision, and it is a bad one.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
I'd really like a dev response to all of this.
Fidens lvl 50 Katana/Regen Scrapper
Scarred Dream lvl 50 Ice/Dark Corrupter
Hephaestus II lvl 40 Fire/Thermal Corrupter
Evolution/Malevolence - Virtue
Its a lazy decision from the devs. Really lazy.
Fidens lvl 50 Katana/Regen Scrapper
Scarred Dream lvl 50 Ice/Dark Corrupter
Hephaestus II lvl 40 Fire/Thermal Corrupter
Evolution/Malevolence - Virtue
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The patron is set because of a story-arc where you choose one patron above all the other. The fact that you can't unpick a patron is because it's now part of your *history*.
You keep harping on this like it's some kind of conclusive proof. It's not. It's not even relevant.
People betray patrons and switch factions all the time in the real world. Shifting alliances are a permanent feature of any political situation. It is even possible for (e.g.) Fred to betray Barney to Wilma, then betray Wilma to Barney and end up working for Barney again. History is rife with the stories of double and triple agents. There have even been people who managed to screw everyone in the domain of discourse and gotten away with it, or even ended up in charge. Arachnos would not only be no different, it has actually been shown to be a breeding ground for cutthroat politics.
Locking players into their initial choice of patron is not logically necessary. It is a fiat decision, and it is a bad one.
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You aren't looking at it from the fact that this is the result of completing your Patron story arc. That means they are giving you a badge/souvenir for completing it.
Badges can't be *undone* with the current technology. They are permanent part of your history, what you have done.
And that's why the patron powers are permanent, because they are tied to that history.
(minor nitpick: You can test the first two power or one half of the PPP at level 41 quite easily. You get two choices to begin with.)
Still here, even after all this time!
This thread is barely 24 hrs old and is already 34 pages long......you'd think this would send a message to the devs. 
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Its a lazy decision from the devs. Really lazy.
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Given that it's obviously taken special effort to make it like this (they could have just done exactly what they did with CoH and made a set of ancillary power pools) I don't think laziness is the problem.
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I don't like the idea. Especially for the impossibility of testing. How do I test it? Go to the test server at 41 and go through a mission or arc 4 different times to test the first power?
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Yeah, I am less than pleased myself. It would be a nice offset if they were stronger than the hero equivilants, but I don't see that happening.
When you get right down to it, villains don't get APP's. They have primary ,secondary, and PPP= tertiary. Just like the primary/secondary, you're stuck with what you pick.
I don't like it much. Testing will be very slow and difficult. It's pretty much as if you were locked into your APP. 4 possible PPP's, only available once per character, each different for 5 different AT's = a long time for testing.
Dawnslayer on Virtue.
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Its a lazy decision from the devs. Really lazy.
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Um, I'd say it is just the opposite. They want your choices to make a difference in your character.
They probably had a good idea of the flack this would draw.
Still here, even after all this time!
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This thread is barely 24 hrs old and is already 34 pages long......you'd think this would send a message to the devs.
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That some people like to talk? Who knew...
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
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That means they are giving you a badge/souvenir for completing it.
[/ QUOTE ] that is exactly what they are doing - the badges are already made.
Dawnslayer on Virtue.
I think it's lazy that they didn't/won't figure out a way for the patron powers to be respec'd out of. It's also going to be lazy of them when this hits test, they find out the majority of people hate it, and they do not change it.
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I think it's lazy that they didn't/won't figure out a way for the patron powers to be respec'd out of.
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They made it that way on purpose. They're not going to create a situation deliberately and then think of ways to undo it.
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I think it's lazy that they didn't/won't figure out a way for the patron powers to be respec'd out of.
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They made it that way on purpose.
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Really? Are you sure they didn't just tie the patron powers to content on purpose and by doing so incidentally locked the powers into your character once you've chosen them? From what I read that's how it sounded to me. I don't think they are very concerned with you having to keep the powers forever, it's just they have no way of preventing this with the way they are being implemented.
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Really? Are you sure they didn't just tie the patron powers to content on purpose and by doing so incidentally locked the powers into your character once you've chosen them?
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Well, yes I am sure. I don't see any reason to believe that permanent, non-respeccable power pool choices were somehow a whoopsy-daisy side effect. Come on, they know how big a deal this is.
Well, thats more or less what I'm driving at. Permanent Patron Powers is a terrible idea. The only way I can see this working is if all the pools have essentially the exact same powers in them, which would make the choice irrelevant from a power's perspective.
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
Wile
Slagheap
Pressure Wave
Rhiannon Bel
Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos