I completed the TV trial on test, back in the day.
It granted only the normal respec that we have today.
Dawncaller - The Circle of Dawn
Too many blasted alts to list, but all on Virtue.
I'm 99% postive that the reason this isn't respecable is that it ties into your badge/souvenir rewards for the Patron Story Arc.
Yes. We got the concept.
The point is that this is a stupid way to do it.
It's not that it won't work. It's that it can't work.
Even if the Patron Powers are the most brilliant example of balance and design ever seen in the history of muds/MMOs, even if like Caesar they are as constant as the northern star, carved in stone never to be changed, the rest of the game will change around them. Changes to main power sets and game systems will invalidate old choices. It will happen.
Changes in content are also an issue. Someone joked about the Center, Nemesis and Lilitu becoming Patrons....what if that came to pass? What option would there be for those whose characters were better RPed as being aligned with the new factions? Delete and relevel? Are the developers prepared to commit to the idea that the Arachnos goons are the only Patrons that will ever be available? That doesn't sound like such a good idea.
The only way out is if, as some have hypothesized, all Patron Power sets contain the exact same powers with different special effects. In which case, the whole hullaballoo is overproduced codswallop. That doesn't help in the case of evolving content, either.
As long as the game is evolving -- and if it isn't, it's dead -- locking players into irrevocable choices should be a non-starter. This idea shouldn't have gotten onto the drawing board, never mind off.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
if these rules stick all the way to live i'll end up playing 4 different character clones on test server for actual story/content.
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We all know of the Test Server, I've actually spent 4+ hours there today playing around with builds. Problem with the Test Server is that it only works for things that they plan to implement.
So what happens when sometime down the line they decide Mako's sets are too strong or they want to change how one of the powers work - whoever has Mako can't decide to pick another patron. The test server doesn't solve that.
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Isn't that the same thing as when my SR scrapper is ALREADY 50 before they nerf perma-elude. Before the global defense nerf and before the ED changes? Those are 3 MAJOR changes that effect SR heavily. Well guess what I am locked into SR because I am certainly not going to just delete a level 50. On the up side if they nerf your patron power thats far easier to deal with then when they nerf your whole secondary. Patrons are 10 levels of your toons life (though the longest levels) your secondary is all 50 levels.
I would like to respec out of the patron but I don't see a diffrence if they don't let us. Its the same as any other primary or secondary. Just ask all the Fire Tankers who made it to level 50 with thier wonderful burn power. I have a few in our SG that won't even play them now with the burn nerf. They don't get to respec out of fire armor though because of the nerf. I think that is far harder on the player then not being able to change the patron power.
Jade Pictures
DoIDD
Lady-Jade's Power Suggestion Thread
@Lady-Jade
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As long as the game is evolving -- and if it isn't, it's dead -- locking players into irrevocable choices should be a non-starter. This idea shouldn't have gotten onto the drawing board, never mind off.
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Well, two things:
I. This is an opportunity to become part of Arachnos, which is a very, very good idea for those who want to get involved in the bunch. Sure, it isn't fair if they changed the power sets you once loved, and you can't respec out of it, but..
II. You don't have to join any of the Patrons. Which answers this one hell of a rant:
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That's the very 'thing' I'm annoyed about. Why should I have to follow any NPC to get epic powers?
Answer: because someone on the Dev Team thought it would be awesome!
This will never be so for me. I like concocting my own stories, thanks. I don't need busybody, adhoc, compulsory storytelling assaulting my characters. Give me what the heroes have and I'll choose my own story and rationale.
Naturally, if I decide not to engage this nonsense, then I'm screwed over for epic powers and, once again, story+concept falls to powergaming and min/maxing. The fact that none of these powers can be respec'ed just adds tons of teeth-gnashing factor on top of it all.
I don't see how this 'idea' could have possibly made it past the first strategy meeting. I'd like to know the real reason we're being forced to endure this.
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Hey you might not get epic powers but you don't have to follow an NPC. Just like how you don't have to follow your contacts to gain missions.
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You are not forced to do any of the Patron content.
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"Forced" is such a tricky word. But by the sounds of this, if you want to get the arguably invaluable 41+ ancillary power pools on the villains side... you effectively HAVE to do these arcs. Otherwise you are screwed out of powers that may turn out to be so good they are "needed".
--
My AE Story Arcs:
Family Matters - 82136
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You are not forced to do any of the Patron content.
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"Forced" is such a tricky word. But by the sounds of this, if you want to get the arguably invaluable 41+ ancillary power pools on the villains side... you effectively HAVE to do these arcs. Otherwise you are screwed out of powers that may turn out to be so good they are "needed".
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Nobody said there will or won't be non-Patron power pools.
..I just wanted to point that out.
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I'm 99% postive that the reason this isn't respecable is that it ties into your badge/souvenir rewards for the Patron Story Arc.
Yes. We got the concept.
The point is that this is a stupid way to do it.
It's not that it won't work. It's that it can't work.
Even if the Patron Powers are the most brilliant example of balance and design ever seen in the history of muds/MMOs, even if like Caesar they are as constant as the northern star, carved in stone never to be changed, the rest of the game will change around them. Changes to main power sets and game systems will invalidate old choices. It will happen.
Changes in content are also an issue. Someone joked about the Center, Nemesis and Lilitu becoming Patrons....what if that came to pass? What option would there be for those whose characters were better RPed as being aligned with the new factions? Delete and relevel? Are the developers prepared to commit to the idea that the Arachnos goons are the only Patrons that will ever be available? That doesn't sound like such a good idea.
The only way out is if, as some have hypothesized, all Patron Power sets contain the exact same powers with different special effects. In which case, the whole hullaballoo is overproduced codswallop. That doesn't help in the case of evolving content, either.
As long as the game is evolving -- and if it isn't, it's dead -- locking players into irrevocable choices should be a non-starter. This idea shouldn't have gotten onto the drawing board, never mind off.
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Agreed.
In addition, think about the PvP aspects. Heroes will have an advantage in that when changes come down to Villain powersets (and you know they will), Heroes will have the flexibility to change Epic Pool Powers to address these changes.
By sheer logical deduction, having permanent Patron Powers is a limitation on your Villain, it is a limitation that is contrary to the precedents and character diversity philosophy that is being espoused and marketed in CoX.
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You are not forced to do any of the Patron content.
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Okay, so if we decide not to do Patron content at level 41 (or whatever it is) then have we missed the boat for good?
Thinking about this: if you can level up to (say) 45 and take ordinary powers, then do patron stuff and get the last powers from the patron pool, then there's a little more mix and match going on than we expected. However, if you have to decide at the start of the 40-50 road, then once you ding 42, you're stuck.
... oh for heaven's sake, I'm losing my touch. I only just twigged. This is an ANTI PL design. If you have to do the patron content to get the juicy powers, then who the heck is going to want to sit on a PL team for PHAT EXPEES any more?
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I just don't think a 'dropped the ball' verdict is justified until we know exactly what we're being tied to here.
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I think the fact that we're tied to them at all is reason enough to debate the systems merits. I don't really care what they do, to be honest.
The rest of the design doesn't make any difference. It's pretty obvious that once you pick a patron, you're stuck with them.
I think people are perfectly within their rights to dislike (or like) the concept based on that alone.
I'll be up front and say that my biggest personal reason for not liking this system is: I'm resistant to change. I like the way the CoH model is designed as far as APPs are concerned. While I applaud Cryptic for approaching CoV from a new perspective, I think they spoiled people like me by allowing heroes more leeway in their Epic options.
You can bet that, if Heroes were locked into APPs, we'dve heard this argument ages ago. However, a precedent would've been set and we would've grown to accept it and move on. This change to what we know (and in my case, prefer) isn't going to go over well with a lot of people, if that isn't already obvious.
To the guy that made the ridiculous "Anti-RP" comment... are you serious? What if I wanted to "RP" a scenario where I change my allegiance? It goes both ways. I'd go so far as to say that being "locked into a patron" is far more RP-limiting than the reverse.
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I think the fact that we're tied to them at all is reason enough to debate the systems merits.
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Sure, but we're already tied to other things in the game, such as our primary, secondary, origin and so forth. I think a lot of the upset here is because a primary and secondary together have plenty of powers in, so if they nerf A you can respec into B or C, whereas a 'pool' has traditionally contained four.
Anyway, I'm trying to look at the broader picture now. They can't be respecced out of because they're tied to the content. They're tied to the content because this will absolutely slaughter any Portal Corp courtyard, Wolf-farming, Dreck-herding equivalent in CoV. If people PL to 50, they will bypass the story arcs that give them their patron powers. Four patrons, with no way to respec out of one and into the other, means four seperate end games that you can't play on the same character - there's the 'can't see everything on one toon' design principle that we've seen before.
I'm 99% convinced that that's what all this is really about. It's been designed this way as a PLing disincentive.
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They're tied to the content because this will absolutely slaughter any Portal Corp courtyard, Wolf-farming, Dreck-herding equivalent in CoV. If people PL to 50, they will bypass the story arcs that give them their patron powers.
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Never thought of that,seems like a good reason to make it perma to me.If you don't PL,then you shouldn't have a problem with this.
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I love this game. I almost never complain. But this time I feel I need to.
Patron choice being permanent? Bad, but perhaps necessary.
Having to chose a patron? Very bad. I'm sorry, but my Mastermind is an evil genius with plans of world-domination and an ego the size of a galaxy. In-character, he would never, NEVER take a patron. From the sound of it, I'm going to have to break character. I want to play an archvillain who's trying to take over, not an apprentice of a bigger villain!
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But couldn't you play it as climbing up through the ranks of Arachnos and duping a patron into bestowing upon you great power a means to that end?
Step 1: Take over Arachnos
Step 2:
Step 3: Profit!
Arc# 92382 -- "The S.P.I.D.E.R. and the Tyrant" -- Ninjas! Robots! Praetorians! It's totally epic! Play it now!
Arc # 316340 -- "Husk" -- Azuria loses something, a young woman harbors a dark secret, and the fate of the world is in your hands.
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I think the fact that we're tied to them at all is reason enough to debate the systems merits.
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Sure, but we're already tied to other things in the game, such as our primary, secondary, origin and so forth. I think a lot of the upset here is because a primary and secondary together have plenty of powers in, so if they nerf A you can respec into B or C, whereas a 'pool' has traditionally contained four.
Anyway, I'm trying to look at the broader picture now. They can't be respecced out of because they're tied to the content. They're tied to the content because this will absolutely slaughter any Portal Corp courtyard, Wolf-farming, Dreck-herding equivalent in CoV. If people PL to 50, they will bypass the story arcs that give them their patron powers. Four patrons, with no way to respec out of one and into the other, means four seperate end games that you can't play on the same character - there's the 'can't see everything on one toon' design principle that we've seen before.
I'm 99% convinced that that's what all this is really about. It's been designed this way as a PLing disincentive.
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Preventative, you mean. Yes, I agree. This has to be the reason for this nonsense.
Actually, if you're right, then this isn't nonsense, is it? It all makes diabolical sense, all of a sudden. Rather than do the work to make enthralling, dynamic gameplay such that players of every kind want to engage, they resort to forced gameplay and hack, arbitrary, rationalized 'content' in the most ancient tradition of SOE.
I hope you're wrong, but suspect you are right on the money. 
So, in order for my villains to gain their epic powers, I have to corrupt or nullify their concept stories and background or history. Because the Dev Team has decided they will not allow powerleveling or, rather, powerleveling without heavy penalty. Put aside the fact that no gaming company to-date has ever successfully stopped powergamers bent on powerleveling---especially not Cryptic. The only players this draconian measure penalizes are the very ones who don't powerlevel, but try, try to role-play and create stories for their villains. I guess they are no longer even bothering to put forward a pretense of caring about any of this.
So, the only solution I can see is to have a second option available: a way to progress through a completely neutral story-arc/TF that grants epic powers but no NPC master for those of us more concerned with concept and story (our own concepts and stories, I should add).
In either case, I doubt they'll rescind their decision to have no respec for this. Once again, they are forcing an ultimate choice: grin and bear it or get out.
Cal2
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Preventative, you mean.
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Oh no. You're not forced to do the patron content. This won't prevent anyone from PLing to 50. It'll just remove any incentive to do so. They finally came up with something that doing the content can offer, but PLing can't (other than the story, of course). The reward from doing the storyarcs won't just be XP any more, it'll be patron powers.
I'm sure people will still PL through the odd level here and there, but zooming straight to 50 will be seen as idiotic.
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Clint, just because you've learned to embrace and bathe in the hyperbole and doomwhining doesn't mean everyone has to condone it, too.
Yes, Revolver freaking the hell out as if this were written in stone and will never change without knowing anything other than 1 Positron post is going overboard. When it was first announced that capes weren't going to be available until level 20, we had people posting the exact same thing. "OMG, BAD GAME DESIGN!" and "THE DEVS DROPPED THE BALL!"
Yet... capes hit at level 20 and no one cares about it anymore.
I'm sorry I'm not freaking out like a 3 year old about this, Clint. Maybe because it's everything I've been asking for for months: epic power pools that actually MEAN something. I'd gladly give up the right to change epic power pools if it meant that they added a storyline reason why my elec blaster suddenly discovers he can freeze things in ice at level 41. Or that my mind controller can suddenly throw boulders.
But no, I'm not even just protesting Revolver's right to be a giant loudmouth. I read this thread and was disgusted, Clint. It's an entire thread of people acting like jagoffs, whether it's about lack of information about patron powers, the inability to change them, or even typos. Game balance, nerfs, devs, fanboys, trolls or not, I take exception to that as a forum reader. If you want to condone that because you suddenly find yourself at odds with the devs, that's your choice to make.
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Don't read the post then. Seriously. You say all these things bother you but then you jump right in with the attacks.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Preventative, you mean.
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Oh no. You're not forced to do the patron content. This won't prevent anyone from PLing to 50. It'll just remove any incentive to do so. They finally came up with something that doing the content can offer, but PLing can't (other than the story, of course). The reward from doing the storyarcs won't just be XP any more, it'll be patron powers.
I'm sure people will still PL through the odd level here and there, but zooming straight to 50 will be seen as idiotic.
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A choice that really isn't a choice, isn't really a choice.
We'll have to take patron powers because if we don't, we gimp ourselves. Don't forget that the higher level missions usually require a team, especially the AV/H ones. Unless they radically alter that aspect of the game. I think the kinds of teams that will ignore the handicap of 'no patron power' will be few and far between: mostly role-players or casual players who haven't gotten theirs, either. IMO, most teams will be looking for players who have goose-stepped and succumbed to the min/maxing content. If you're one who has decided to protest and rebel, then you're SoL for teams at the higher levels.
Speculation, but not far-fetched.
What I'm seeing here with this Patron Power system is the final nail in the coffin for those of us who want our own stories and concepts for our villains. We're being told: our way or the highway. That's how I'm taking it. The fact that there is no respec for any of it is just a reinforcement, a reiteration of this foolishness.
Foolish because it's not going to do what they want: stop powerleveling; it's going to drive away players who don't powerlevel in the first place. Apparently, they are ok with that.
Cal2
I don't have a problem with the current setup for Villains, though if they'd set it up this way for heroes I'd feel differently.
I understand that from a metagame standpoint, people might get frustrated. "OMG, I worked so hard to minmax my character! If I make teh wrong decision, I might NOT BE UBER!!1!!! Damn you Devs for not letting me change my mind!"
...however, from a comic-book point of view, this type of decision-making is perfectly in line with Villain Psychology. "Wow! The (insert item of cosmic power here)! If I can sieze control of that, I'LL BE INVINCIBLE!!!1!" Naturally, as every good comic reader knows, the villain is usually incinerated three panels later.
..What I'm saying is, traditional Comic-Book Villains have always suffered from Poor Impulse Control. The repercussions of the myriad of bad decisions Villains make is what makes their character compelling, and gives them an interesting history.
So, if my character chooses a Patron that turns out to be gimped, well, tough noogies. I'll have to find some other way to boost my wickedness to make up for it.... probably by siezing the nearest (item of cosmic power) and blowing up the planet. 
I believe in the devs! This'll turn out fiiiiine!
Either that or I'll have the entire game to myself when everyone quits.
Some random thoughts,questions,ideas:
A non-arachnos patron would be very nice.
Will every ounce of information about these powers be divulged upon their introduction? If they're gonna be permanent we deserve that.
How will testing on TR go for this? Will there be level bumps so that the higher end powers can be thoroughly tested?
How many powers are Patrons offering? 4? 6? 8?
Will badges be awarded for completing the trials or for actually choosing the patron? Just wondering if us badge junkies can get the other patron badges beyond our chosen patron's by doing the other trials with other people.
Couldn't those of us concerned about the patron powers just level to 50 and not train 41-50 until we hear more about these powers?
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We dont know what is contained in the Patron pools yet, how many powers exist, how similar they are to each Patron, etc...so its difficult to debate for now until we see it on Test to form our opinions on it.
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No that's incorrect. My concern is that the choice is permanent. I don't care if every pool was the identical but with different colors (it won't be), what I'm concerned about is that it's a permanent choice.
I just think that it is a bad idea to gate an ancillary pool this way and think the devs should offer the generic ancillary pools that heroes have access to on the side.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I don't have a problem with the current setup for Villains, though if they'd set it up this way for heroes I'd feel differently.
I understand that from a metagame standpoint, people might get frustrated. "OMG, I worked so hard to minmax my character! If I make teh wrong decision, I might NOT BE UBER!!1!!! Damn you Devs for not letting me change my mind!"
...however, from a comic-book point of view, this type of decision-making is perfectly in line with Villain Psychology. "Wow! The (insert item of cosmic power here)! If I can sieze control of that, I'LL BE INVINCIBLE!!!1!" Naturally, as every good comic reader knows, the villain is usually incinerated three panels later.
..What I'm saying is, traditional Comic-Book Villains have always suffered from Poor Impulse Control. The repercussions of the myriad of bad decisions Villains make is what makes their character compelling, and gives them an interesting history.
So, if my character chooses a Patron that turns out to be gimped, well, tough noogies. I'll have to find some other way to boost my wickedness to make up for it.... probably by siezing the nearest (item of cosmic power) and blowing up the planet.
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Except, you won't be able to. Once you've chosen a patron, regardless of your conecpt or story, that's it. You're stuck. You have no other options. There are no 'other ways' except in your own mind where, presumably, you've already created your concept story. heh heh
I find it interesting to see that you believe this system would annoy the powergamers rather than the storygamers---a contradiction of my opinion above. Not being a powergamer, myself, I'm not quite sure I follow that. Unless, of course, you're saying the lack of respec is the choke point? If so, yeah, I can see that.
Cal2
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But it doesn't matter how it works! What if I decide, for example, that I actually hate the way Scorpion's Mace looks with my character?
Now I'm screwed in the A. What the damn Mace does doesn't make any difference.
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Then you have the choice of not using the mace and just using normal pools (just like heroes.)
I'm 99% postive that the reason this isn't respecable is that it ties into your badge/souvenir rewards for the Patron Story Arc.
You do the story arc (now the *history* of your character) you have officially pissed off all of the other patrons and only the one you picked will be your sugar-daddy.
A decision with a consequence! My gosh!
How CoV where if you fail a mission, the contact tells you to take a hike and won't *ever* talk to you again?
I'm quite happy to see it, myself.
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Now that's an assumption. I've never seen the devs say that you get a generic ancillary pool if you don't go with a patron. If you mean that a person who chooses not to consume this content is stuck with just their basic four pools then I don't think that's a good idea.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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We all know that 95% of what hits Test, hits Live. I'm not advocating going into full, obnoxious squeaky-wheel mode is appropriate right now, but this 'Be quiet/Wait and see" advice is silly.
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But we don't know what is going to hit Test, that's the point.
I'm not giving anyone advice and I'm certainly not telling anyone to shut up. I just don't think a 'dropped the ball' verdict is justified until we know exactly what we're being tied to here. The proof of the pudding is not in the anticipation.
I agree that it's a very risky piece of design, and their providing hard data prior to the choice suggests that they are aware of how horribly wrong it could go.
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This just ignores reality. Positron stated that the choice is TRULY permanent and becomes part of your character just like primary, secondary, origin, etc. It is not an unjust assumption to take him at his word.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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...
But it doesn't matter how it works! What if I decide, for example, that I actually hate the way Scorpion's Mace looks with my character?
Now I'm screwed in the A. What the damn Mace does doesn't make any difference.
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Then you have the choice of not using the mace and just using normal pools (just like heroes.)
I'm 99% postive that the reason this isn't respecable is that it ties into your badge/souvenir rewards for the Patron Story Arc.
You do the story arc (now the *history* of your character) you have officially pissed off all of the other patrons and only the one you picked will be your sugar-daddy.
A decision with a consequence! My gosh!
How CoV where if you fail a mission, the contact tells you to take a hike and won't *ever* talk to you again?
I'm quite happy to see it, myself.
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That's the very 'thing' I'm annoyed about. Why should I have to follow any NPC to get epic powers?
Answer: because someone on the Dev Team thought it would be awesome!
This will never be so for me. I like concocting my own stories, thanks. I don't need busybody, adhoc, compulsory storytelling assaulting my characters. Give me what the heroes have and I'll choose my own story and rationale.
Naturally, if I decide not to engage this nonsense, then I'm screwed over for epic powers and, once again, story+concept falls to powergaming and min/maxing. The fact that none of these powers can be respec'ed just adds tons of teeth-gnashing factor on top of it all.
I don't see how this 'idea' could have possibly made it past the first strategy meeting. I'd like to know the real reason we're being forced to endure this.
Cal2