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I agree with you for on the 'how it works doesnt matter' argument.
The only thing that really matters is, since these things are permanent for the forseeable future what will happen when they are tweeked for balance.
Everything else is moot since it can be tested on the test server.
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Do you really find the APPs in CoH to be unbalanced between the different sets? They all seemed to do what they want.
I've never even bothered to switch mine on test on my one 40+ character, just get different powers within it. (Currently having all of them.)
Still here, even after all this time!
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But it doesn't matter how it works! What if I decide, for example, that I actually hate the way Scorpion's Mace looks with my character?
Now I'm screwed in the A. What the damn Mace does doesn't make any difference.
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Then you have the choice of not using the mace and just using normal pools (just like heroes.)
I'm 99% postive that the reason this isn't respecable is that it ties into your badge/souvenir rewards for the Patron Story Arc.
You do the story arc (now the *history* of your character) you have officially pissed off all of the other patrons and only the one you picked will be your sugar-daddy.
A decision with a consequence! My gosh!
How CoV where if you fail a mission, the contact tells you to take a hike and won't *ever* talk to you again?
I'm quite happy to see it, myself.
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Thank you for posting this. Though I don't necessarily agree, your point is a perfect example of discussion and debate that can be derived from the facts we've been handed already.
I wasnt trying to say dont discuss it at all, I'm saying at this point, its not gonna matter as much until it is on Test and we try it to form more valid opinions then jsut based off a few comments by a dev
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I agree with you for on the 'how it works doesnt matter' argument.
The only thing that really matters is, since these things are permanent for the forseeable future what will happen when they are tweeked for balance.
Everything else is moot since it can be tested on the test server.
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Do you really find the APPs in CoH to be unbalanced between the different sets? They all seemed to do what they want.
I've never even bothered to switch mine on test on my one 40+ character, just get different powers within it. (Currently having all of them.)
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Actually, most of the Hero APPs haven't been touched since they first hit the Test server in issue 4. As a matter of fact, the only Hero APP power that's been altered at all is the Blaster Force of Nature, IIRC.
EDIT: and the Controller versions of Hibernate and Earth's Embrace, which were actually buffed.
They got hit with the GDN, too.
Dawncaller - The Circle of Dawn
Too many blasted alts to list, but all on Virtue.
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I agree with you for on the 'how it works doesnt matter' argument.
The only thing that really matters is, since these things are permanent for the forseeable future what will happen when they are tweeked for balance.
Everything else is moot since it can be tested on the test server.
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Do you really find the APPs in CoH to be unbalanced between the different sets? They all seemed to do what they want.
I've never even bothered to switch mine on test on my one 40+ character, just get different powers within it. (Currently having all of them.)
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Actually, most of the Hero APPs haven't been touched since they first hit the Test server in issue 4. As a matter of fact, the only Hero APP power that's been altered at all is the Blaster Force of Nature, IIRC.
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Well, i5 and ED too. I know I lost some resistance on my Dark Armor power in Dark Mastery.
Still here, even after all this time!
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I'm just saying it's a bit difficult to reply with actual feedback that could be considered helpful when the feedback isn't based on factual knowledge.
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Well, we do have some facts, but I catch your drift. There's only so far you can go with feedback at this point. I do think it's constructive to communicate there are concerns about the non-respecability of PPPs.
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And posting an opinion based on past occurrences or based on likelihoods is like a...
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Yeah, we get it. Discussing hypotheticals is not foolproof. 'Wait and see' doesn't work much better, statistically. Discussing what we know now may be messy and go down some dead ends, but silence does less.
I'm just saying that some leeway and patience for other posters makes for better posts than, "You don't know for sure - you can't say that." No one can prove that concerned people are necessarily wrong about certain points either. Very few things in life are factually bad or good, in fact. They are what they are, and people have preferences.
Yeah, I suppose. Those weren't power-specific changes though.
I read up to page 14 of this and just stopped reading because of all the whining.People,understand that this isn't even on test and you are already whining about it.From what I read,you all want the villians to be INDENTICAL to the heroes with all of their choices.The devs throw somethign new at us and you all cry and moan and whine.Accept the new content they are giving us,it's much better than nothign or the same old thing.Even though you are permanently locked into that patron's pool doesn't mean that it's the end of the world.In a later issue,there could be the possibility of betraying your patron and choosing a new one.(Maybe still having that patrons pool but they get deleted and placed over with powers from your new patron.)
Overall it will probably be a bad desescision to make them perment, if nothing else, because someone will speed through the popup that informs them such, pick the wrong power, and be here to gripe about it the first time they try to respec 
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It could still all be fine though, and it does matter what the pools have and how they are structured. If all the pools have 16 powers, and are identical between patrons except for animations or something, test server can pretty much take care of the graphics to see which you like. Main problem is the people above who speed trhough popups, or dont read the boards or whatever.
Overall I am fairly hesitant, but really, I wont be making anything close to a final call until i can see an abilities list.
And for some of the people who dont want to join Recluse, you go through the arc, get your patron power, and then RP that you betrayed them to steal their tech/powers/skills. Wont work for everyone one, but not too many supervillians seem like it would be against their morals to backstab someone for power.
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I read up to page 14 of this and just stopped reading because of all the whining.People,understand that this isn't even on test and you are already whining about it.From what I read,you all want the villians to be INDENTICAL to the heroes with all of their choices.The devs throw somethign new at us and you all cry and moan and whine.Accept the new content they are giving us,it's much better than nothign or the same old thing.Even though you are permanently locked into that patron's pool doesn't mean that it's the end of the world.In a later issue,there could be the possibility of betraying your patron and choosing a new one.(Maybe still having that patrons pool but they get deleted and placed over with powers from your new patron.)
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... but that's an assumption Chan. Those aren't allowed here
Regardless of anyone's stance on this, I think we can all agree on one thing:
Let's hope that there is a clear cut and obvious message that informs the player that what they are choosing is truly permanent.
Something similar to the red text "you will be killed" warnings in the PvP zones.
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I read up to page 14 of this and just stopped reading because of all the whining.People,understand that this isn't even on test and you are already whining about it.From what I read,you all want the villians to be INDENTICAL to the heroes with all of their choices.The devs throw somethign new at us and you all cry and moan and whine.Accept the new content they are giving us,it's much better than nothign or the same old thing.Even though you are permanently locked into that patron's pool doesn't mean that it's the end of the world.In a later issue,there could be the possibility of betraying your patron and choosing a new one.(Maybe still having that patrons pool but they get deleted and placed over with powers from your new patron.)
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... but that's an assumption Chan. Those aren't allowed here
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Oh they are allowed,just the board trolls and fanboys eat them alive.
Biggest issue I see with the whole "wait and see" people is if this is the same as COH and you can only choose certain power 1 or 2 at 41 then like someone already mentioned in here, so you have to get to level 50 then copy your toon over to test in order to get them. However I would think the devs would know this and give everyone a level bump on the test server. Been done before in beta for instance, with the PVP events and normal play everyone getting boosted 10 levels. But all in all the permanent non respec option is just a bad idea all together. Future nerfs, future chaning of minds, future buffs of other patrons, etc. The devs need to stop hinting at these patron powers and post the damn info already. Then people can start to make informed decisions and plan ahead.
Assumptions are different. You can assume he meant perma one way but arguing that its nto right when you dont know how it it all is yet is another.
Call me a baord troll, I dont give a damn
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I have a feeling that once you complete the 'trial' or whatever, the patrons will give you the full skinny, (minus numbers of course) of what powers they grant for your archetype, so you can make a mostly-informed decision.
Dawnslayer on Virtue.
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We all know that 95% of what hits Test, hits Live. I'm not advocating going into full, obnoxious squeaky-wheel mode is appropriate right now, but this 'Be quiet/Wait and see" advice is silly.
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But we don't know what is going to hit Test, that's the point.
I'm not giving anyone advice and I'm certainly not telling anyone to shut up. I just don't think a 'dropped the ball' verdict is justified until we know exactly what we're being tied to here. The proof of the pudding is not in the anticipation.
I agree that it's a very risky piece of design, and their providing hard data prior to the choice suggests that they are aware of how horribly wrong it could go.
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Patron Powers are truly permanent. This powerset, once chosen, is as much a part of your character as your Name, Primary Powerset, Secondary Powerset, Body Type, and Origin.
There is currently no way for us to let you re-spec out of them and into a different one. This is because it is tied to specific content for that Patron.
Because of this, hard numbers are given, in-game, about the powers and what they do before you even choose which arc you wish to partake (and will most likely be available on the website as well).
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The Patron is un-respec'able? Or is it both the Patron and the specific powers choosen? I.E. you can or can not respec the choosen powers with in the Patron's available power choices?
If powers get changed or "adjusted" from their original description, which is hopefully well documented (any flaws in the documentation will NOT go over well at all in this case and it will be more that just a "Text Error") and players are not allowed to retune for that, its gonna make people upset.
I predict much future use of the Test Server.
And why such deviation from the Ancillary (Epic) Power Pools of the heroes? Or is that going to be and available option as well?
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Overall it will probably be a bad desescision to make them perment, if nothing else, because someone will speed through the popup that informs them such, pick the wrong power, and be here to gripe about it the first time they try to respec .
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Anyone who doesn't read up on this before making their decision, deserves to get stuck with the wrong Patron. The information will be available in-game, on the website, and the forums. And that doesn't count trying different patron power sets on the test server.
Plus, they could put a timer on the window that won't allow you to close it right away. That way you have nothing to do but read what's there.
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Overall it will probably be a bad desescision to make them perment, if nothing else, because someone will speed through the popup that informs them such, pick the wrong power, and be here to gripe about it the first time they try to respec .
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Anyone who doesn't read up on this before making their decision, deserves to get stuck with the wrong Patron. The information will be available in-game, on the website, and the forums. And that doesn't count trying different patron power sets on the test server.
Plus, they could put a timer on the window that won't allow you to close it right away. That way you have nothing to do but read what's there.
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To add onto that, States or Zeb said that they wanted to make it really REALLY clear who you're gonna be choosing. So there's most likely gonna be 2-3 questionnares before you actually pick your patron (ie. are you sure? are you really sure? are you really REALLY sure? - but in a more villainous manner.)
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Well, except for the "wait and see - it'll be all right" crowd.
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People are saying 'It'll be all right'? I must have missed that.
Look, the justification for reserving judgement until we know more is that this is not just an epic power pool you can't get rid of. It's something new. They've obviously designed it to be a permanent choice on purpose. If that permanency is an integral part of how these things were designed, then we can't assess how good or bad it is until we see it in context along with the rest of the design. Right now, the permanency looks arbitrary, or like an oversight (not that I buy that particular explanation). If the design doesn't provide a clear and understandable motive for making the choices permanent, then I'm right over there with the 'this may not have been the best of ideas' crowd.
At this early stage in the game I'm against Patron sets being locked in once you choose them, too. 
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Well, except for the "wait and see - it'll be all right" crowd.
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People are saying 'It'll be all right'? I must have missed that.
Look, the justification for reserving judgement until we know more is that this is not just an epic power pool you can't get rid of. It's something new. They've obviously designed it to be a permanent choice on purpose. If that permanency is an integral part of how these things were designed, then we can't assess how good or bad it is until we see it in context along with the rest of the design.
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The reason why it's hard to respec out of them is because of the content tied to the Patron Powers.
If they just gave us Patron Powers, it would be an easy task for the devs to arrange a respec if needed, but that isn't the case.
Along with our Patron Powers, comes missions and probably other stuff we have no idea of yet. So respecing wouldn't work. I'm assuming lvl 40-50 missions and story arcs would be mostly (if not all) about our Patron. That's most likely the reason why respeccing isn't allowed at the moment.
If they allowed it the easy way, they'd reset your toon back to 40 so you can choose your Patron again and start THAT arc.
Not being able to respec out of your Patron is understandable from the way I see it.
Oh wait! I just realized something, people are looking at the powers instead of the Patron.
Wow, how anti-RP can you get?
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Oh and in beta you USED to be able to change AT's through the Terra Volta trial. So the tech is in place to change patron powers. Just like the tech is available to do name changes, etc.
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Actually that was the original, on-paper, plan for Terra Volta. The Strategy Guide went off the on-paper plan and said that is the end result of the trial. Thus there is no "tech in place" for this. The Terra Volta trial was not in the COH beta, it was issue 2, I believe, that it made its debut. Changing ATs has never been in the game, it was never programmed.
Hopefully that clears that up.
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Not according to your testers. Hate to say it Posi, but I just don't believe a word you guys say anymore when you say you're all going to do something.
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You are misinformed and unintentionally hilarious.
What testers? I was there when the Terra Volta Trial hit Test- it really, really didn't let you change your AT. It DID used to be insanely hard to complete, but you couldn't change your AT or your powersets. I was really hoping it would, but nope.
Time to let this one go. Think about it logically- what would they have to gain from developing all the tech to let people swap ATs and then not releasing it?
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You can debate over what you assume is valid but it wont help much until you see how it works.
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I think the point is, if it was okay to discuss and debate CoV features prior to beta based on dev comments and article mentions, it doesn't seem outrageous to discuss/debate PPPs at this stage. There's virtually no talk about the specific powers, but there is enough info to discuss the pitfalls/virtues of non-respecable post-40 powersets. There are definite pros and cons. There was just that dustup earlier that took things to the extreme that was not constructive.
Additionally, if people had just shut up and played 'wait and see', Positron would might not have offered some clarification today. More info is good.
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Thank you for explaining the point more eloquently than I.
I just don't get the "yay, new information! Let's not discuss any of it until we know every last detail!" crowd. Kinda makes this entire thread pointless. Hell, it makes posting anything at all pointless.