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It's not a freak out about a tiny bit of information. We can't change an epic pool - that's pretty major no matter how you slice it.
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We can't change a primary or a secondary, either. It looks like you're assuming these Patron Power Pools will be comparable to the CoH epic pools, i.e. a narrow and very limited set of choices. We don't know that. So far, we know next to nothing about them.
You're complaining about being locked into something that you don't even know what it is. Isn't that a little premature?
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C'mon now. Considering the lead time on anything to do with this game including little tweaks and fixes, waiting until it hits the Test server is absurd.
ABSURD.
We all know that 95% of what hits Test, hits Live. I'm not advocating going into full, obnoxious squeaky-wheel mode is appropriate right now, but this 'Be quiet/Wait and see" advice is silly. It's a [censored] feedback forum. Some of you folks continue to be a little defensive and read too much animosity into criticism. The devs are not wilting hothouse flowers suffering from too much heat and vapors.
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It's exactly like people flipping out about capes.
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Not really - not yet, at least.
It'd be nice if YOU didn't flip out anytime someone said the devs did something wrong or made a mistake. Your Red Bull privileges are hereby revoked. 
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You know what I was thinking.. what if the powers didn't matter because most (like 98%) of them gonna be the same? Maybe that's why it wouldn't matter if you picked X Patron or not?
Like for example, all of the Patrons grant the same powers except for their one single signature Patron attack they wanted to give you?
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I was thinking the same thing. Its possible that each of the Patron pools will offer the same exact powers. The only difference would be their appearance. So Mako's shield, ranged cone, etc. would be corallax themed, while Sirocco's would be Mu red lighting themed.
If that is the case, then only the Patron specific content will truely matter.
I am willing to wait for more details before passing judgement.
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I don't think they'd make all the powers the same, just with different animations, that's greatly limiting the choices players have.
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Why not?
It certainly would solve the "man-I-hate-this-Patron's-powers,-I-wanna-try-the-other-Patron-now" problem.
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Except for the fact that Posi already said we can't respec out of a patron due to the way they're coded into the content - not because they didn't want player to be able to do so.
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What? lol.
I don't think you got what I was trying to say.
What I meant was if most of the powers (except for a few Patron-related powers) are shared by all the Patrons, then there wouldn't be any need for respeccing.
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It would also be very "vanilla". If everything is the same, there really is no choice.
Clint, just because you've learned to embrace and bathe in the hyperbole and doomwhining doesn't mean everyone has to condone it, too.
Yes, Revolver freaking the hell out as if this were written in stone and will never change without knowing anything other than 1 Positron post is going overboard. When it was first announced that capes weren't going to be available until level 20, we had people posting the exact same thing. "OMG, BAD GAME DESIGN!" and "THE DEVS DROPPED THE BALL!"
Yet... capes hit at level 20 and no one cares about it anymore.
I'm sorry I'm not freaking out like a 3 year old about this, Clint. Maybe because it's everything I've been asking for for months: epic power pools that actually MEAN something. I'd gladly give up the right to change epic power pools if it meant that they added a storyline reason why my elec blaster suddenly discovers he can freeze things in ice at level 41. Or that my mind controller can suddenly throw boulders.
But no, I'm not even just protesting Revolver's right to be a giant loudmouth. I read this thread and was disgusted, Clint. It's an entire thread of people acting like jagoffs, whether it's about lack of information about patron powers, the inability to change them, or even typos. Game balance, nerfs, devs, fanboys, trolls or not, I take exception to that as a forum reader. If you want to condone that because you suddenly find yourself at odds with the devs, that's your choice to make.
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
But we don't yet know all the powers available in a patron pool. They might be almost identical to the CoH APP's, or they may have several types of powers to ensure that any concept can fit into the patron pool. We don't know that yet. That's why I'm waiting.
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Patron Powers are truly permanent. This powerset, once chosen, is as much a part of your character as your Name, Primary Powerset, Secondary Powerset, Body Type, and Origin.
There is currently no way for us to let you re-spec out of them and into a different one. This is because it is tied to specific content for that Patron.
Because of this, hard numbers are given, in-game, about the powers and what they do before you even choose which arc you wish to partake (and will most likely be available on the website as well).
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Do you think this is even remotly fair to villian characters?
Heros can respec out of their ancilleries if they choose badly. So villians cant. Most villian At's are already considered weaker than their hero counterparts this isnt going to help things.
Its a bad design decision.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
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Clint, just because you've learned to embrace and bathe in the hyperbole and doomwhining doesn't mean everyone has to condone it, too.
Yes, Revolver freaking the hell out as if this were written in stone and will never change without knowing anything other than 1 Positron post is going overboard. When it was first announced that capes weren't going to be available until level 20, we had people posting the exact same thing. "OMG, BAD GAME DESIGN!" and "THE DEVS DROPPED THE BALL!"
Yet... capes hit at level 20 and no one cares about it anymore.
I'm sorry I'm not freaking out like a 3 year old about this, Clint. Maybe because it's everything I've been asking for for months: epic power pools that actually MEAN something. I'd gladly give up the right to change epic power pools if it meant that they added a storyline reason why my elec blaster suddenly discovers he can freeze things in ice at level 41. Or that my mind controller can suddenly throw boulders.
But no, I'm not even just protesting Revolver's right to be a giant loudmouth. I read this thread and was disgusted, Clint. It's an entire thread of people acting like jagoffs, whether it's about lack of information about patron powers, the inability to change them, or even typos. Game balance, nerfs, devs, fanboys, trolls or not, I take exception to that as a forum reader. If you want to condone that because you suddenly find yourself at odds with the devs, that's your choice to make.
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Thank you for taking what I said out of context. You know as well as I do that in an internet forum these two quotes are completely different:
"The Devs drop the ball."
"THE DEVS DROPPED THE BALL"
as well as...
"This is bad game design."
"OMG BAD GAME DESIGN"
Maybe I'll take up your quoting methods:
OMG YOU DON'T AGREE WITH THE DEVS NOOB!
Taser let's get to what all this is really about - anytime anyone says anything that goes against your Devworshipping lifestyle you have a problem with it, so you trot into the thread and bash them for it. Very mature.
You have the right to your opinions just as everybody else - the difference is you're the only one who consistantly, without fail takes it as their personal quest to attack anyone who happens to not like what the Devs have done.
You even go as far to call it whining to belittle any opinion that isn't along the lines of "The Dev done good".
Give it a rest. We've all seen it enough. You like the Devs, we got the point.
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Hard numbers or not, we're permanently locked into power choices - that's not exceptable.
Especially since the game is leaning more and more towards PvP, villain patron powers are going to mean a lot in the new zone.
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It is quite easy to copy 4 copies of your villain to the test server so you can try out each patron power. I believe that is why there is a test server (well, unofficially--officially it's there to work out bugs in the game, but you probably knew that already 
)
Proud member of the LEGION, and Sisterhood
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And it's not because they want it that way - it because they didn't take it into account when designing the content.
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We don't know this. We need to chillax.
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If it was taken into account and they went along with it anyway, than I've obviously overestimated their intelligence.
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Dude, give it a rest.
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Hey, they made a dumb a move that's going to kick players in the [censored] somewhere down the road. I'm more than entitled to be concerned over that and defend my opinion.
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Revolver, you've made your statement, the debate goes on, and you're not a lone voice crying in the wind. Pace yourself and avoid getting personal even though there have been some personal attacks against you. The more you rebut every little comment, the more it looks like you're throwing a hissy fit.
Personally, I'm ambivalent about Patron powersets being locked. It's not really all that bad or good. It's a judgement call for design unless there's a concern about min/maxing. It can also have some effect on PvP, but it likely doesn't break the gameplay any more than the multitude of existing PvP quirks do.
Let's be rhetorically honest about this, though, people. Patron Power Pools have always been intended to balance out the advantage of heroes' Ancillary Power Pools. That's not my opinion. That's been every indication from dev commentary since beta. The permanence of one's PPP potentially puts one at a slight disadvantage just on principle without having a look at how large, useful, or similar to each other the PPPs are. There may be compensating factors yet to be revealed. Until they are revealed - until any more details are revealed - one can't assume the worst (Revolver) OR the best (Taser, Sadako).
One thing is for sure: the PPPs are demonstrably different from APPs, so no one can assume how they will work and how the devs will tweak them for good or ill later on. Being doomy or pollyanna-ish about this without a heaping spoonful of "I'll admit I don't know what the [censored] I'm talking about" included is silly.
I don't know what the eff I'm talking about as far as the unreleased specifics of PPPs, but they are different from the function of APPs and they'll be trickier to implement than APPs were because of their differences. APPs were not implemented without noticeable hiccups for months.
*crosses fingers*
Have I responded to everyone questioning this action and called them whiners, Revolver?
No. Because you are the only one whining here. Instead of going, "Hm, that seems like a bad idea and here are several good reasons why" you instantly dove headfirst into hyperbole and swearing. Good for you. You have now undermined your own point.
We get it, Revolver. You know it all. You know what's best for the game. If we don't agree with you, we're all dev asskissing fanboys.
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
There is Currently no way to change your patron pools.
Meaning in the future some story arc allowing you to change Patrons like you change your underwear will be implemented. Probably In the same Issue Recluse, Hammi, the Center, Lilitu, Nemesis and the Praetorians become available as Patrons
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Oh and in beta you USED to be able to change AT's through the Terra Volta trial. So the tech is in place to change patron powers. Just like the tech is available to do name changes, etc.
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Actually that was the original, on-paper, plan for Terra Volta. The Strategy Guide went off the on-paper plan and said that is the end result of the trial. Thus there is no "tech in place" for this. The Terra Volta trial was not in the COH beta, it was issue 2, I believe, that it made its debut. Changing ATs has never been in the game, it was never programmed.
Hopefully that clears that up.
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Not according to your testers.
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CoH beta tester, here. It wasn't in during beta, wasn't tested in beta, was complained heavily about it's absence in beta in the forum. You need to talk to people who actually tested the game. Heck, you need to talk to people who actually played the game in 2004 the way your posts read.
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The infamous SG Cap being a prime example. Everytime you turn around, you have a new excuse for why the cap allegedly exists. When I see so many repeated inconsistancies by a company, it's just hard to believe anything they say as truth. In the last ask Statesman for example, Statesman repeated this trend of saying one thing and then being proven wrong with material directly from the game to do so.
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I call shenanigans on you. You're taking a [censored], aren't you?
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Oh and as to the "Tech" you guys claim is interestingly enough never in place... tell me why every other MMO has no problem at all doing such things that parallel items that could be doable yet everytime the "Tech" isn't available. Unless you guys coded this game in something like Cobol and then used a bunch of AS400's for your server systems, you can't tell me the tech isn't available.
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When the devs refer to "tech", they're talking about code modules that handle game functions. This game was written lean and mean originally without a lot of extraneous code for functions that they thought they might implement years later. Statesman made it clear when the company initiated a two-month discussion period on how the Respec system would work in the forum that the option of changing primaryand Secondary powersets was not going to be an option. It wasn't because it wasn't possible. It was a design choice based partly on the close marriage of Prim/Sec powersets and character concept. You agree with it or you don't.
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And it's not because they want it that way - it because they didn't take it into account when designing the content.
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We don't know this. We need to chillax.
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If it was taken into account and they went along with it anyway, than I've obviously overestimated their intelligence.
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Dude, give it a rest.
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Hey, they made a dumb a move that's going to kick players in the [censored] somewhere down the road. I'm more than entitled to be concerned over that and defend my opinion.
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Revolver, you've made your statement, the debate goes on, and you're not a lone voice crying in the wind. Pace yourself and avoid getting personal even though there have been some personal attacks against you. The more you rebut every little comment, the more it looks like you're throwing a hissy fit.
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I really don't care what others may think of me - especially on an internet forum. When someone is fast to call an opinion that doesn't favor the Devs whining, that pretty much tells me all I have know.
But point well taken, I know good advice when it crosses my path.
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But we don't yet know all the powers available in a patron pool. They might be almost identical to the CoH APP's, or they may have several types of powers to ensure that any concept can fit into the patron pool. We don't know that yet. That's why I'm waiting.
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My interpretation of the dev remarks is that each sponsor will have a theme for their powers. Each AT will be different, but still reflect that theme. Hopefully, those powers will follow the CoH APP's, and fill in some of the gaps of each AT.
-- War
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But we don't yet know all the powers available in a patron pool. They might be almost identical to the CoH APP's, or they may have several types of powers to ensure that any concept can fit into the patron pool. We don't know that yet. That's why I'm waiting.
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My interpretation of the dev remarks is that each sponsor will have a theme for their powers. Each AT will be different, but still reflect that theme. Hopefully, those powers will follow the CoH APP's, and fill in some of the gaps of each AT.
-- War
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My hope is that, as unchangable, each patron pool will have something for everyone. But... this is one of things we do not yet know.
*crosses fingers*
A bit off topic, here, but some things I was contemplating:
1) I wonder if this design decision was influenced in any way by the possibility of a "Legend's System" or post lvl 50 content?
2) I'm curious to see if this same design is applied to heroes when/if they receive a "Legend's System"?
Just wanted to spit that out.....feel free to return to the normal discussion 
I don't like the entire idea of Patron Powers---regardless of their permanence or possible lack thereof. This 'feature' potentially violates my perogatives as the storyteller for my own character, interjecting themes and elements from the Devs stories into my character concepts without my leave to do so.
Big Deal? To the majority, probably not. It is, however, to me. So, apparently, once again, in order to min/max my characters(which seems to be what they want me to do), I'm going to have to violate my concepts---all because some busy-body on the Dev Team thought it would be neato! if each named villain would grant out epic powers.
bah
Why couldn't the epic powers progress as they do in CoH? Then all the choices are mine and respecing would be an option.
I'm becoming annoyed, once again, with the constant bombardment from the Dev Team with their 'signature heroes and villains'. These NPCs get better powers, costumes and options than the paying customers. I'm happy Statesman gets to recreate his favorite Champions adventures online, but he's doing so at the expense of my stories about my characters. These ridiculous 'patron powers' are just another, more insidious version of the same. I don't like it---a lot.
As an aside, I keep thinking about the production resources and time that could've been better spent. Like on non-combat gameplay options! The coding for epic powers is already live. Just copy it over, change it for the villain ATs and bam! done.
Stop trying to force me to play mediocre sidekick to NPCs, Statesman. Not only are these attempts boring and cliche, they are antagonizing, to boot. How about this: on the day these prima donna NPCs start paying my subscription fees, then I'll cow-tow and allow my characters to be patronized by them and you. Till then, try to remember this much: we pay for the game; your corny NPCs don't even exist.
Cal2
Revolver_Law, I would suggest for you to use the ignore feature this forum offers.
I'm sure you are aware of it, but I will be honest here, the CoH forums have become very pleasant since I ignored.... as you call him the "Fanboy". He has been there for the past 3+ months and I will be honest, its a completely different atmosphere.
Actually, there are quite a few people I have on that list.
[B]Leading Badge Holder in the City of Community[/B]
Owner & Operator of...
[URL="http://www.vidiotmaps.com/"]Vidiotmaps.com[/URL] & [URL="http://www.badge-hunter.com/"]Badge-Hunter.com[/URL]
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Have I responded to everyone questioning this action and called them whiners, Revolver?
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No, but you did just call people jagoffs. If you didn't directly insult everyone in the thread, you came rather close.
You wrote:
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It's an entire thread of people acting like jagoffs, whether it's about lack of information about patron powers, the inability to change them, or even typos.
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Honestly, the only poster I'm disgusted with in this thread is you. You seem unable to see any criticism of the devs without throwing the online equivalent of a temper tantrum.
Go back and read the comments about grammar and spelling at the start of the thread. There was no vitriol there, not "OMG teh devs can't rite gud." Maybe you should stop and consider that the people posting the grammar and spelling comments may have been trying to help Alexa or whomever wrote the article so that they can make sure the CoV website looks the best it can.
You have this uncanny ability to read malice into posts which just doesnt seem supported by the actual content of the posts.
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
Wile
Slagheap
Pressure Wave
Rhiannon Bel
Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
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Clint, just because you've learned to embrace and bathe in the hyperbole and doomwhining doesn't mean everyone has to condone it, too.
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<insert pot/keetle remark>
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Yes, Revolver freaking the hell out as if this were written in stone and will never change without knowing anything other than 1 Positron post is going overboard.
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He wasn't nearly upset until you and Sadako wound him up for just having an educated opinion on how it would work based on over a year of experience with the game and the devs. I'm not sure how freaking out about game criticism is very constructive. Please advise.
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Yet... capes hit at level 20 and no one cares about it anymore.
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Yeeesss... Capes=APP-like PPPs. That makes perfect... insanity. What happened to arguing on the actual merits of a debate? A lost art, it is.
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'm sorry I'm not freaking out like a 3 year old about this, Clint.
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Liar.
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Maybe because it's everything I've been asking for for months:
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Liar, again. You've asked for more than this.
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But no, I'm not even just protesting Revolver's right to be a giant loudmouth. I read this thread and was disgusted, Clint. It's an entire thread of people acting like jagoffs, whether it's about lack of information about patron powers, the inability to change them, or even typos. Game balance, nerfs, devs, fanboys, trolls or not, I take exception to that as a forum reader. If you want to condone that because you suddenly find yourself at odds with the devs, that's your choice to make.
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Ya know, it's fair to be "disgusted", I suppose. (Though I thought the niggles about typos were fair. Awry is paid to WRITE and EDIT for goodness' sake. 
) Honestly, though, you are very judgemental right out of the chute lately. You did nothing to lessen tempers in this thread, and are therefore a co-conspirator in this relatively mild hubbub. Criminy, I'm pretty unimpressed with the so-called backlash to PPPs thus far. I don't believe people should be up in arms about this, but if this is supposed to be some sort of protest, my girl has gotten more worked up about farting under the covers. Which makes the anti-'backlash' backlash almost comical.
I actually agree with your preference that APPs and PPPs choices have more weight to them than how they fall in the Brawl Index. I also sympathize a bit with people who don't want to be told how to have fun. If a game is gonna start pushing PvP as an important gameplay choice, then it seems a little off to lock people into specific PPPs. It's great that the devs want to release stats for the PPPs, but I think it's fair for people to be cautious about hip-hip-hooraying because stats change for powers in MMOGs.
It just seems odd that heroes have so much flexibility in power list design, and villains do not. I'm not surprised that there are sub-faction oriented PPPs. I'm a little surprised that there's no mention of generic elemental PPPs in addition to them. Maybe they will down the line, but again, that's not something you can assume the devs will get right on. There's a backlog of things that the devs would like to implement that would fill two more years of development resources evidently. You want something, you better speak up early and often. How long did the popular Paragon Dance Party missions idea languish in the Suggestions section as a stickied idea, no less before it briefly appeared as a part of the V-Day event?
Just saying.
Though the Test server major changes usually go Live, changes are made most of the time even if just minor.
If people disliked Patron Pool's altogether, the devs would have to scratch it, go back to the "drawing board", delay Issue 7 for an unknown amount of time, we wait impatiently, threads bloom complaining about no level 50 villains yet/no I7.
But with thought out posts about whatever you dislike abuot Patron Pools, the devs will (at least they say they do) look at them and decide what kind of tweak is needed.
Dont try and sound like what goes on Test fully goes live because tweaks are made.
(this wasnt completely in reply to Athyna, just a small part near the top I think)
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I think the whole letter thing was a bit of a letdown just to say... I was expecting some info about the actual powers! 
But anyway, as for the initial idea, I think it's really great, and an arc/trial to have to get certain powers sounds very cool and thematic and RPing and whatnot. BUT, I don't quite want that, I want some flexibility, I don't want to be stuck with, as others have said; something that may get nerfed down the line. Or just something which I have no real opportunity to ditch if I don't like it.
I feel that this sort of thing will give heroes in PvP and as a whole another advantage compared to those in CoV. I can happily respec my ill/storm cont to be a killing machine as the changes come rolling in, but if Mako's magical shark attacks get a dmg decrease or recharge jump; well I'm stuck with them. Maybe there will be a ton of options, and you're right we don't have to partake in these things; but I was expecting pretty much something similar to hero Epics.
I would like some Focused Acc, some Dull Pain. A bit of mez protection, maybe a phase shift or two; some sort of special Hench buff, some +res shields, maybe even some ghetto 'hero-only' powers. Whatever. But PvP wise, Recluse's Victory and heroes with Focused Acc+Tactics+ more tactics or CM or a yellow insp already invalidates Stalkers majorly. I was expecting some nice handy buffs that put us on par with them come lvl 50. Now, maybe we'll get those, but just based on this and the fact that we'd never get to change things around, be it from a PvE scope to PvP, well that I don't really like.
I commend the idea and presentation, and I bet there are some spectacular powers, but no opportunity to test these powers, be assured of no major changes for them, and being stuck with them from 41+ for good doesn't appeal to me so much.
Edit: Oops, I guess that was a bit rash to just post that without more info. I still agree with the above but hopefully the next Feature Update for PPs will tell us what we need to know. Also; for people's questions on not being an 'Arachnos Lackey', well, Burke is there; so what if you choose him first and that led up to an outside Patron Pool or epics?
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Patron Powers are truly permanent. This powerset, once chosen, is as much a part of your character as your Name, Primary Powerset, Secondary Powerset, Body Type, and Origin.
There is currently no way for us to let you re-spec out of them and into a different one. This is because it is tied to specific content for that Patron.
Because of this, hard numbers are given, in-game, about the powers and what they do before you even choose which arc you wish to partake (and will most likely be available on the website as well).
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Well they had better be BALANCED and ready for the long term with NO nerfs and or buffs to be announced later if we cant change them down the road like the heroes can.
Lets say someone is deciding between Ghost Widow and Black Scorpion as there patron. Said person picks Ghost Widow and down the road it gets changed in some way or nerfed and no longer fits the idea of the character or is as effective as before the change. Now Black Scorpion fits better in said persons build/idea for their character because the original patron was altered. That person is STUCK with the now altered/changed patron and cant change it.
Heroes can change theirs though. What gives?
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There is Currently no way to change your patron pools.
Meaning in the future some story arc allowing you to change Patrons like you change your underwear will be implemented. Probably In the same Issue Recluse, Hammi, the Center, Lilitu, Nemesis and the Praetorians become available as Patrons
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Ha! You had me for a second. 
Subtle snark for teh win!
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I don't think the choice is something that doesn't matter. By level 41 characters matter a lot. I can see why the devs want it to be this way, but I think they could save themselve a lot of grief if they offer generic, respeccable choices to go along with the Patron Pools.
(
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Please, please, PLEASE let this path be followed. If the patron idea is strong enough, it should be able to stand the competition - and as someone who likes both the ability to vary my powers and much prefers making my own character paths/concepts - this alternative would be great.
In other words, seconded!