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The problem, in a nutshell, is that some people don't think they really mean it.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
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That's not an ad hominem in the slightest. Some people are doubtful that the Devs are going to deliver. Saying so does not amount to a personal attack.
This empowerment station sounds nice but how are smaller supergroups going to be place one? I'm not talking about cost factor so much as there isn't enough room in the basic superbase to be adding 4 X 4 rooms when try to have an Energy Room, Control room, entry room, infirmary, workshop and Meeting room (btw can we get a smaller Meeting room please?!) . How about putting this station in the Infirmary?
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This empowerment station sounds nice but how are smaller supergroups going to be place one? I'm not talking about cost factor so much as there isn't enough room in the basic superbase to be adding 4 X 4 rooms when try to have an Energy Room, Control room, entry room, infirmary, workshop and Meeting room (btw can we get a smaller Meeting room please?!) . How about putting this station in the Infirmary?
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This has come up already. There's no reason to think the "empowerment stations" are entire rooms, or even require anything more than the space some other easily available furniture items take up.
I guess it all boils down to what your intent is with the empowerment stations.
If you intend for them to be used in the following two situations:
A) Yikes! See that AV/Monster/Huge spawn over there? We'd better go to our bases and buff up before we fight them!
B) Oh drat. That AV/Monster/Huge spawn really wiped the floor with us. We'd better go to our bases and buff up before we try this again!
then yes, I can see how they would fulfill that intention.
If that's their intended function, then I'm ok with that.
I don't think that they'd generally be useful for missions where your contact tells you "This will be a tough mission, you'd better bring some help" however. The reason for this is that more often than not the "tough" part of the mission is towards the end, and unless you stealth/rush through the mission, you might not get there before the 15-minute timer runs out.
But there's nothing that says that they have to be useful for those situations.
Nor will they be very useful for "emergencies". When half your team suddenly drops and you try to contain the situation, having an empowerment station in your base won't help a bit.
This might actually not be such a bad thing though...
Something else to consider is that the A)/B) situations described above usually have an above normal risk of dying associated with them.
Will these buffs act as passive temp powers with a time limit, or as click buffs with the same duration (or something else entirely)?
In the case of passive temp powers they'd continue to be active after a death, in the case of click buffs... not so much...
It's not clear that either case is inherently "better" than the other, but I can imagine that the latter case might result in some player frustration at times.
Player: <buffs up>
Player: Ok, now I have 5 empowerment buffs on me! Infernal, beware!
Infernal: <one-shots> (ok, two-shots then)
Player: Drat.
Again, It's not clear that either of these cases is better than the other, but I'm somewhat curious which one will be used.
(Well, from a Plz Posi make me teh Ubar!!1!-perspective, the passive temp power would clearly be "better", but if that definition of "better" was used in all game-design decisions, then we'd all be running around with powers that made us invulnerable to all damage and allowed us to one-shot Hamidon from 3 zones away)
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The problem is you are using subjective terms like "small SGs" and "unaffordable."
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So are the Devs. The problem, in a nutshell, is that some people don't think they really mean it.
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No. That would mean that many believe that the devs are being equivocal or speaking fraudulently. We're pointing out the perception of need and what is "affordable" can be completely relative and subjective. Not the same thing.
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We're pointing out the perception of need and what is "affordable" can be completely relative and subjective.
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Of course they can. That then raises the issue of whether you trust the person using the term to do so in a way that you would agree with; this is the whole issue, given that these statements are being made in the nature of an assurance. If they're not being taken as an assurance, which they clearly aren't given all this fretting, then it means people are being suspicious and mistrustful.
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there isn't enough room in the basic superbase to be adding 4 X 4 rooms
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If you look at the screen shots, the stations themseleves only take up a small amount of space. The basic ones take up 1/4th of a square, and the big ones take up 1 square. So putting both into a 2x2 room, would leave nearly 3/4th of the room empty.
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(btw can we get a smaller Meeting room please?!)
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We used a 2x2 workshop as a meeting room, prior to upgrading our plot. It's the cheapest room and works quite well as a meeting room.
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They never thought that characters would have perma-MoG. They never thought that griefers would TP others into towers and trap them. They never thought that players would slot 1 acc and 5 dmg SO's into an attack power. They never thought that anyone would farm kracken in the sewer trial. They never thought that people with pre-i2 characters would complain about the impossibility of them getting the Isolator badge. They never thought anyone would level up insanely fast on Winter Lords (the XP pinatas). They never thought that anyone would farm the Hamidon for +50/+50 enhancements day after day after day. They never thought that anyone would use the wolf mission for PLing, or after that the "dead scanner" mission, or after that the "Dreck" mission....
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But this is nothing LIKE that. This is about how much something costs, not about unconventional uses for things they've put in. And no way on earth is something accidentally going to cost more than they intended it to.
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If a Winter Lord gives an ungodly amount of XP, how is someone killing them for XP an "unconventional use?"
Your question, the one I responded to, basically implied that the devs were too smart to let really obvious errors or misjudgements slip past them.
I just gave several examples where they did just that. 
"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter
29973 "The Running of the Bulls" [SFMA] - WINNER of the Mighty Big Story Arc Contest !
- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform
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Your question, the one I responded to, basically implied that the devs were too smart to let really obvious errors or misjudgements slip past them.
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Errors and misjudgements that involve predicting player behaviour, not setting the price of their own additions. Nothing the players can do will make empowerment stations cost more, will it?
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Your question, the one I responded to, basically implied that the devs were too smart to let really obvious errors or misjudgements slip past them.
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Errors and misjudgements that involve predicting player behaviour, not setting the price of their own additions. Nothing the players can do will make empowerment stations cost more, will it?
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Ah. So even though the devs have made numerous easily predictable errors in the past, in this particular case that SIMPLY WON'T HAPPEN because... err.. because....
Umm...
Because Sadako says so....?
"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter
29973 "The Running of the Bulls" [SFMA] - WINNER of the Mighty Big Story Arc Contest !
- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform
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The inherent problem of course with flat duration-limited buffs is that if it lasts too long, you'll get large SGs essentially running them for hours on end in PvP zones. Most likely the buffs will have to remain uselessly inconvenient in PvE so that they don't become godly in PvP.
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Ofcourse, they could always make them only work in PvE. Heaven forbid. I mean, I can't datamine or anything, but in my personal experience, even after all the nasty things that have been done to PvE for the sake of PvP, CoH is still a better PvE game than PvP game. I'm sure I'm not the only one who wouldn't mind at all if these were Godly in PvE and disabled in PvP.
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We're pointing out the perception of need and what is "affordable" can be completely relative and subjective.
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Of course they can. That then raises the issue of whether you trust the person using the term to do so in a way that you would agree with; this is the whole issue, given that these statements are being made in the nature of an assurance. If they're not being taken as an assurance, which they clearly aren't given all this fretting, then it means people are being suspicious and mistrustful.
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The problem is that while most would probably agree that the devs made the original base items and their prices thinking that they were reasonably priced, in reality most of the players don't agree. Some of the base prices seem out of touch with being reasonable in reality. 1.3 Million for the first plot upgrade seems a bit much. That price right there precludes many smaller SGs from having a chance to get even the most basic plot upgrade for a long time, if they actually want to place items in their existing plot. The whole pricing structure on control items seems a bit high given the more reasonable pricing on power items. Having large teleporter rooms only allow 2 teleporters-the same as a small teleporter room- seems a bit of a mistake. The bigger room should allow 4 or more teleporters, given it can physically hold 9 I believe.
Things like the above, while I can't speak for everyone, in my opinion make some doubt the devs' view of "reasonable" when it comes to base prices. It has nothing to do with deception or intentional misleading, but just questioning their judgement when it comes to pricing.
PS: DOOOOM! Your avatar is quite appropriate. It's all doom and gloom and negativity anytime something is announced, but until we are given real numbers for some of these items, it is only natural since like I say it can be assumed that all the base prices were thought to be reasonable, yet aren't. But I do give the devs credit, that all of the fluff items, the nonfunctioning stuff, is reasonably priced. 100 for most things, 500 for some, a bit more for very few items. Great job there.
My questiong is........will there be a supergroup bank where we can dump our infamy/influence?
I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that, but I'm old and cynical. 
Of course, I have yet to hear a good reason not to have something like that. It hasn't stopped anyone from dropping influence on alts or lowbies, and I haven't noticed my toons being invincible if I start them out with 100,000.
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Ah. So even though the devs have made numerous easily predictable errors in the past, in this particular case that SIMPLY WON'T HAPPEN because... err.. because....
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Because there's no way even the most devious player can cause an Empowerment Station to cost more. Like I said.
I think this is going to be a tough one for them to balance so that its useful to all sizes of supergroup, but not overpowerful either.
The buff duration will be set so it allows small SGs with no teleporters (especially in CoH) to get some use from them. But, the duration can't be too long or teleporter SGs will be able to get too much use from a single buff. Similarly, the cost in salvage has to be low enough to allow small SG members to get regular use out of it, but avoiding the possibility of letting big SGs perma-buff their members. Added to all this is the strength and type of the buffs available.
Like I said, going to be tough to get it right.
Always remember, we were Heroes.
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And, as I keep repeating, it's unfeasible that they could accidentally make these new features unaffordable for small SGs, which is what people seem to be fretting about. The suggestion that they could somehow have overlooked the cost of the room, or of the upkeep, is silly.
[/ QUOTE ]The problem is you are using subjective terms like "small SGs" and "unaffordable." Is 105K unaffordable to a small SG? How about 250k? How many day/weeks/months do the developers want a SG of 2/5/10 regularly playing members to have to work before they can afford such items? There are a lot of variables, devil in the details if you will, that a number of players are concerned in which the developers might have differing opinions. It is right and proper to express our concerns and expectations. It is also reasonable, not silly, to look at past history to determine future performance.
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One of the details you are over looking is the "free" Prestige that you get for each member in the SG, up to 15.
That two person SG with 2 main characters and 13 alt's is going to have 300k in Prestige. I see your example of it costing 250k for the room, both Stations, and the Storage Bin being close to how much it will be.
I hypothesize that the "sudden" inclusion of the member bonus was in anticipation of these Empowerment Stations.
NCIS: Best gorram show in the 'verse.
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That's not an ad hominem in the slightest. Some people are doubtful that the Devs are going to deliver. Saying so does not amount to a personal attack.
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And some people have their head so far up the Devs you know what, that they are posting continuously to try to ward off the pitchfork citizens. You seem to have appointed yourself as the Devs body guard so don't get so upset Sadako when people have now started focusing their anger on you. I guess you are now the Devs lightening rod. Must be all the playful banter back and worth with the Devs and yourself that makes you feel like they are your friends and you have to defend them.
I can tell you they aren't my friends. They are a business providing me with a service. They will be treated accordingly. I will continue to question anything and everything they do. That is my right as a customer and their burden as the business.
If these items are so "reasonably priced", why don't they just come out and post what the prices are to settle people down instead of saying "reasonably priced". I think the reason is because they don't have a handle on the price yet. Maybe all these people posting will have them lower the price even more before it hits test server. You don't know because they haven't stated a price for them. Maybe before positron posted they had the prices set at 50k prestige but after reading this thread they change the prices to 10k prestige. You won't know and we won't know. But you will have the opportunity if they do to say "see I told you so" when it was actually our posting that got it lowered.
What is the harm in posting the prices of these items instead of stating "reasonably priced"? Post the number Positron and then let the customer base decide if these are "resonably priced" because stating such a thing on behalf of the player base is not very realistic. Whose view of "reasonably priced" are we going off of here.
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And some people have their head so far up the Devs you know what, that they are posting continuously to try to ward off the pitchfork citizens. You seem to have appointed yourself as the Devs body guard so don't get so upset Sadako when people have now started focusing their anger on you.
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What on earth gave you the impression that I was upset? I'm calling for rationality and common sense, not claiming that the Devs never ever make mistakes.
It's conceivable that these new Empowerment Stations might not be as helpful as intended, or as much fun as intended, or as popular as intended. But it's not conceivable that the Devs would accidentally make them more expensive than intended, by doing something as daft as requiring them to be put in a big room that small SGs can't afford. That does not make sense. Period. As the redname said:
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Everything in this issue will be "reasonably priced". It doesn't make sense for us to set out to help small supergroups and then charge large supergroup Prestige for the items.
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And yet, some people are fretting that they somehow might do this. Go figure.
Well, prior to this trailer, I was under the impression that empowerment stations were part of the whole invention system.
Now it has been made clear they they are seperate from that I will take them for what they are, limited value buffs for tricky situations, with the knowledge that some sort of power/enh/insp crafting is coming down the pipeline in addition to them.
My own fault for having the wrong expectations. 
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
Jesus, you are like a hawk. You really are their freaking body guard aren't you. Lady_Sadako, Protector of Devs.
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My own fault for having the wrong expectations.
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Not to toot my own horn, well who am I kidding. toot toot
I think I had a good number of posts before these announements telling people not to expect too much and prepared to be disappointed. I'm not saying these additions are bad things, I just knew they wouldn't be what the player base needed or really wanted. Not talking about the storage containers; those were highly wanted. We will see how disappointing their functionality turns out once they hit test though.
I think the Devs come up with some really really outstanding ideas. However, their implementation of these ideas are usually very poor.
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Jesus, you are like a hawk. You really are their freaking body guard aren't you. Lady_Sadako, Protector of Devs.
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It's not the Devs I'm bothered about, it's the level of common sense.
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It's not the Devs I'm bothered about, it's the level of common sense.
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Yeah tell me about it. Since the Devs won't help us out here, maybe you can help us Lady_Sadako.
What is "reasonably priced"? Is it 1k, is it 5k, is it 10k, is it 15k prestige? Is it "reasonably priced" for a SG of 1, 5, 10, 15, or 20 members? The reason why positron put "reasonably priced" in quotes is directly because it is a matter of opinion.
So I will use a little common sense and realize that since the "reasonably priced" statement is based on a view point, that people will try to figure out whose view point positron is using. People will debate it because no numbers were given and only a cryptic "reasonably priced" statement was made that is obviously based on a matter of opinion. Now that is some common sense for you.
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The problem, in a nutshell, is that some people don't think they really mean it.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
@Mindshadow