[ QUOTE ]
I think it was "Because there's no way the devs could make the cost of obtaining an Enpowerment Station too high for a small SG
[/ QUOTE ]
... by mistake.
What they will have done is to set a cost. That cost will be based on what they think is reasonable. No argument there.
In setting that cost, they will have taken into account things like the kind of room that the Empowerment Stations need to go in, and the cost of upkeep.
What they will NOT have done is set a price for the Empowerment Stations, and then blindly set some condition that requires you to have a huge unaffordable room to keep them in.
Their idea of 'reasonably priced' may be slightly higher than yours; it may not. It may even seem generous. But whatever the price they settle on actually is, it will have been done by design. They are NOT about to price small SGs out of the market through incompetence, which is what was being suggested.
For that matter, it's highly unlikely that they'd price small SGs out of the market by design, either. They chose to use the statement 'reasonably priced', and of course people are going to fret like broody hens over what that might actually mean. But they wouldn't have used that description in the first place unless they felt they could deliver something that people thought WAS reasonably priced.
This all seems to come down to distrust of statements like 'reasonably priced' for being in the same kind of vein as 'small tweak' and 'no sweeping power changes'.
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As the redname said:
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Everything in this issue will be "reasonably priced". It doesn't make sense for us to set out to help small supergroups and then charge large supergroup Prestige for the items.
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And yet, some people are fretting that they somehow might do this. Go figure.
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You know, youve convinced me. After all, when a red name says something, then we can trust it explicitly. Never any unpleasant surprises after that. Nope. You are absolutely, 100% correct.
So lets say, for example, that Statesman himself makes a statement like We are done making major changes to powers. Well, surely we can take that to the bank. The devs would NEVER turn around just a couple months later and do something totally contrary to a common sense interpretation of that proclamation! Something like, oh I dont know
making major changes to how power enhancements work so that damage output, healing rates, etc. would be much lower than before. (I mean, can you just imagine!) And they would ABSOLUTELY NEVER offer up a lame excuse for such inconsistencies like, oh, well, I said we were done balancing powers, but I didnt say we would leave enhancements alone!
A red name said it. I believe it. That settles it. 
"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter
29973 "The Running of the Bulls" [SFMA] - WINNER of the Mighty Big Story Arc Contest !
- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform
[ QUOTE ]
A red name said it. I believe it. That settles it.
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I refer you to my last post:
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This all seems to come down to distrust of statements like 'reasonably priced' for being in the same kind of vein as 'small tweak' and 'no sweeping power changes'.
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I think it was "Because there's no way the devs could make the cost of obtaining an Enpowerment Station too high for a small SG
[/ QUOTE ]
... by mistake.
[/ QUOTE ]
Because, of course, we all know that they don't MAKE mistakes!
They don't make XP given for seasonal monsters too high, or make the effectiveness of defensive powers so good that you may as well be playing in God Mode, or anything like that.
"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter
29973 "The Running of the Bulls" [SFMA] - WINNER of the Mighty Big Story Arc Contest !
- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform
[ QUOTE ]
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A red name said it. I believe it. That settles it.
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I refer you to my last post:
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...and convinently refuse to respond to anything I said.
"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter
29973 "The Running of the Bulls" [SFMA] - WINNER of the Mighty Big Story Arc Contest !
- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform
I dont know if this was brought up already but to me it seems
like now we can store a load of BFs in these containers for PvPing
in WarBurg etc .
Making BFs alot more easily accessible I feel is kicking the
controlling sets in the balls.
It will also make Inspirations in general alot easier to get. So
for instance : I could load up on all defense enhancments and
some damage ones. Pop them all and kill a few people before
getting killed myself. Then go to my base, refill and come back
and do the same again.
Doesnt sound like fun for all 
Fidens lvl 50 Katana/Regen Scrapper
Scarred Dream lvl 50 Ice/Dark Corrupter
Hephaestus II lvl 40 Fire/Thermal Corrupter
Evolution/Malevolence - Virtue
[ QUOTE ]
They don't make XP given for seasonal monsters too high, or make the effectiveness of defensive powers so good that you may as well be playing in God Mode, or anything like that.
[/ QUOTE ]
Of course they make mistakes. But to make that kind of mistake, they'd have to be drinking correction fluid on their lunch break.
Or do you perhaps think that the whole 'We'd have to put them in big unaffordable rooms!' bit was valid?
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...and convinently refuse to respond to anything I said.
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Sure, the Devs have used ambiguous phrasing before. That doesn't make them stupid, incompetent or deceitful. Still, if you want to use a few precedents as a cause to fret about any statement that might be taken negatively, then I can hardly stop you. Fretting is a forum sport, after all.
I think I've now been called "silly", "daft", and a "broody hen" for doubting the developer's definition of "reasonably priced" (to include item, room, power, control, and plot size). Our SG has 6-8 regular players and we have near 3 million prestige since the launch of COV. If we are their target audience AND they want a SG to have to work several weeks before they can afford these new toys (if they were starting fresh) then the total cost to deploy would be in the neighborhood of $400K.
The truth is you only value those things that have a significant (subjective term) cost to you. They have to try to balance cost with value (perceived worth). Looking at the bases now I'd say they value ANY upgrade at X10 the baseline version. This is a ridiculous scaling. If they put too much value on these new toys then their "reasonable cost" will once again be higher than the masses can stomach.
Our group is STILL saving for the 8x12 base. Problem is that we won't be able to make use of it once we get it because we are maxed out on control and power thus needing at least another 2 million (above the cost of the plot) to add the inspiration/enhancement storage device(s). So, that's another 4 months playing every night JUST to add storage. Reasonable?
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Reasonable?
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Honestly? No.
The stated design intent is to help small SGs. The whole 'reasonably priced' bit is ancillary to that. If the design would be useless to the majority of small SGs, there would be no point in implementing it. And a lot of small SGs are very small indeed. They'll have to cast the net pretty wide in order to do what they intend to do.
[ QUOTE ]
I dont know if this was brought up already but to me it seems like now we can store a load of BFs in these containers for PvPing in WarBurg etc .
[/ QUOTE ]
If you just care about general mayhem or exerting zone control in the PvP zones, it's certainly a buff. Just make a note for any of your SG to deposit Stage 3 insps or break frees in the inspiration storage, and take them out when you need them.
Considering that there's already an unlockable item that lets you buy unlimited Break Frees in your base, though, somehow I doubt this is new doom. It just makes that ability more easily accessible to smaller groups.
@Mindshadow
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I think I've now been called "silly", "daft", and a "broody hen" for doubting the developer's definition of "reasonably priced"
[/ QUOTE ]
There's a point where you have to realize that you're not going to convince the other person, and all you're doing is restating the same opinions, with steadily increasing surliness.
You're letting the discussion get dragged from looking at what data we have, to a meta-discussion about the devs and other forum posters. Just let it go. Forum /ignore is there for a reason.
@Mindshadow
Yeah but as big as the SG/VG is that im in we are struggling to get
that healing badge for it.
Well then I guess what your saying is that this just speeds up the
inevitability of which everyone will have easy access to all sorts of
BFs.
I still kinda see this as a problem in PvP zones.
Fidens lvl 50 Katana/Regen Scrapper
Scarred Dream lvl 50 Ice/Dark Corrupter
Hephaestus II lvl 40 Fire/Thermal Corrupter
Evolution/Malevolence - Virtue
[ QUOTE ]
Our SG has 6-8 regular players and we have near 3 million prestige since the launch of COV. If we are their target audience AND they want a SG to have to work several weeks before they can afford these new toys (if they were starting fresh) then the total cost to deploy would be in the neighborhood of $400K.
The truth is you only value those things that have a significant (subjective term) cost to you. They have to try to balance cost with value (perceived worth). Looking at the bases now I'd say they value ANY upgrade at X10 the baseline version. This is a ridiculous scaling. If they put too much value on these new toys then their "reasonable cost" will once again be higher than the masses can stomach.
Our group is STILL saving for the 8x12 base. Problem is that we won't be able to make use of it once we get it because we are maxed out on control and power thus needing at least another 2 million (above the cost of the plot) to add the inspiration/enhancement storage device(s). So, that's another 4 months playing every night JUST to add storage. Reasonable?
[/ QUOTE ]
You sound about just where my SG is. At best we have enough space for 1 extra room, then that is it until we can scrounge up enough for the 8x12. That means we are gonna lose out on not being able to place some of this new stuff unless it can be put in existing rooms and does not require rooms of their own (highly doubtful.) Not happy about that prospect.
[ QUOTE ]
Sure, the Devs have used ambiguous phrasing before. That doesn't make them stupid, incompetent or deceitful.
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It doesnt mean they arent any of those things either. 
Statesman says, Were done making major changes to powers. Then two months later ED is pushed through the test server and onto live in record time. Either Jacks previous statement was deceitful, or it showed some serious stupidity and/or incompetence.
Still, you simply havent been reading my words very closely. Most of the examples I gave earlier had nothing to do with what they said, and everything to do with the decisions they made. Like having Winter Lords give out waaaaay too much XP, as just one example among many.
Face it, the devs have made several easily predictable blunders in a great many aspects of the game. Theyve left gaping exploit holes wide enough for hordes of pimply-faced teenagers to drive semi trucks through. And drive through them they did, in droves. Some of these exploits were seen and reported well before they went live
and yet they went live anyway.
[ QUOTE ]
Still, if you want to use a few precedents as a cause to fret about any statement that might be taken negatively, then I can hardly stop you. Fretting is a forum sport, after all.
[/ QUOTE ]
Im personally not fretting. Im just calling you out on your utterly unsupportable position that the devs cannot make an error and price these new empowerment stations too high. Maybe they will, maybe they wont.
And your only response to my counter examples is to say, Well, those mistakes were for different things." Yeah, they were for different things! Duh! Since empowerment stations are so new theyre not even in the game yet, it is logically impossible for the devs to have screwed them up in the past!
Again, Im not saying that this one particular aspect of i7 will be screwed up. Im saying that given the devs track record, it would not surprise me in the least if it was. And your perfect confidence in them simply flies in the face of CoH history.
"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter
29973 "The Running of the Bulls" [SFMA] - WINNER of the Mighty Big Story Arc Contest !
- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform
[ QUOTE ]
Well then I guess what your saying is that this just speeds up the
inevitability of which everyone will have easy access to all sorts of
BFs.
I still kinda see this as a problem in PvP zones.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd rather the problem be that everyone has access to it, rather than only the hardcore having access to it.
@Mindshadow
[ QUOTE ]
I dont know if this was brought up already but to me it seems
like now we can store a load of BFs in these containers for PvPing
in WarBurg etc .
[/ QUOTE ]
I zone out of Warburg and about 200-300 yards away there is a contact who will sell me a full tray of break frees if I wished to buy them.
Or ic an zone into the base, and retrieve ones placed there in a bin.
This really doesn't affect the situation at all.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
You know, the funny thing about this thread is that we're stuck dealing with completely subjective terms.
We really need to answer the following question: What does the development team think a "small SG" consists of? Without that information, we'll never know what the relative values of things are supposed to be.
In my own case:
My main's SG would consider 100k to be fairly expensive; the purchase would probably be worth discussing with the group. If it were 50k or less, we wouldn't even bat an eye about getting one. If the empowerment station is actually really good, we'd probably buy it regardless of the cost. Otherwise, we'd just bank the prestige for rent and our holy grail: the 8x12 plot.
One of our coalition members has a small, 2 room decorative base (they have 2 or 3 members). They went AV hunting with us last night and were tickled pink that they earned about ~30k prestige to further decorate their base. They might be able to use something like the empowerment station, but probably it'd be more useful to them to save the prestige for rent and decorations. If the cost more than, say, 20k... they'd probably never even consider it (even if it did give an excellent bonus).
Conversely, my villain's VG has about 8-10 extremely active members. Several people have taken their characters (sometimes multiple characters) from the single didgets to 40 in SG mode (that works out about 400k-450k prestige each). The base is highly functional with very little decoration. They have an upgraded plot with just about everything you could want in a non-PvP base, including a raid teleporter, just in case we decided to do an instant raid (whatever those are called). If/when they shift to a PvP focus, they will probably get one of these stations for use during raids. And it will be a drop in the bucket for them.
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Still, you simply havent been reading my words very closely. Most of the examples I gave earlier had nothing to do with what they said,
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This whole kerfuffle is based on what they said. If it had been based on a decision, then there might be some merit to it.
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Im just calling you out on your utterly unsupportable position that the devs cannot make an error
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But this is the kind of error that would be tantamount to giving bazookas to Hellions or moving travel powers to level 46. The Devs are NOT infallible. I've never said that they are, not once. But they are NOT catastrophically stupid either.
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Statesman says, Were done making major changes to powers. Then two months later ED is pushed through the test server and onto live in record time. Either Jacks previous statement was deceitful, or it showed some serious stupidity and/or incompetence.
[/ QUOTE ]
Or in this case... a misperception on his part. That's his story anyway. As shady as it seems to some, I'm willing to take him as face value on this score because it sure wouldn't be the first time I've seen someone in management make change to poilcy, procedure, etc. without fully considering its impact.
Remember, that in ED, no numbers on the base powers were changed to facilitate the revision. In the mind of a manager like Jack, thet're not changing the powers. Its an entirely different system that is being adjusted. Does it effect powers in an incredibly dramatic way? Heck yes it does.
In the worst case scenario, its like someone saying they have nothing "on their desk" about such and such a policy change, when in fact they're holding the document outlingin the change in their hand. That's being actively deceptive. But I don't think that is what we saw with ED.
Part of the problem with developing policy/technology in a closed environment is that you don't get the critical eye of the consumer/user to point out flaws in the design. What's worse though, is when you get the feedback and refuse to change anyway because you've set a course or have a "vision."
Until we see the I7 base additions hit the TS, we just won't know, apparently. -shrug-
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We really need to answer the following question: What does the development team think a "small SG" consists of?
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, we need to answer the question 'What kind of SG does the development team consider too small to warrant help?'
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We really need to answer the following question: What does the development team think a "small SG" consists of?
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, we need to answer the question 'What kind of SG does the development team consider too small to warrant help?'
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually I think the poster you responded to has the more valid question. As Positron said:
[ QUOTE ]
Everything in this issue will be "reasonably priced". It doesn't make sense for us to set out to help small supergroups and then charge large supergroup Prestige for the items.
[/ QUOTE ]
They are trying to help small supergroups, so what do they think is a small supergroup? SGs can range from 1 to 75 members. Is 20 small? I don't think one has to think the devs incompetent to think they may set the "small SG" bar a bit higher than most players. On the scale of 1 to 75, 15 or 20 isn't really that big, when you think about it, so it seems reasonable to question where they set the bar. And where they set the bar will determine what is a "reasonable" price and restriction. Where would that leave the 5 member SGs if they set the bar at 15 as their baseline?
[ QUOTE ]
Where would that leave the 5 member SGs if they set the bar at 15 as their baseline?
[/ QUOTE ]
That's exactly what I meant by 'too small to warrant help'. The question isn't what is small, it's what is too small.
I don't think you can properly design something to help small SGs without it helping even the very smallest SGs. The empowerment stations range from Basic to Advanced, so that allows a variable cost for variable items. I'd be very surprised indeed if a one person SG, with the 20,000 Prestige bonus awarded for having one member, couldn't build a Basic empowerment station.
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, we need to answer the question 'What kind of SG does the development team consider too small to warrant help?'
[/ QUOTE ]
Nope, that question does NOT provide a valid data point with which to work. Define "small SG," "level of effort," and "reasonable price." Or "X x Y = Z" where X equals the number of characters in SG mode playing an average 3 hours a night; Y equals number of nights (level of effort); and Z equaling the amount of prestige required to the new items. With data points you can determine the baseline. THEN you can make a subjective determination whether or not it is reasonable.
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Ah. So even though the devs have made numerous easily predictable errors in the past, in this particular case that SIMPLY WON'T HAPPEN because... err.. because....
[/ QUOTE ]
Because there's no way even the most devious player can cause an Empowerment Station to cost more. Like I said.
[/ QUOTE ]
What was that? I didn't quite hear you.
I think it was "Because there's no way the devs could make the cost of obtaining an Enpowerment Station too high for a small SG."
"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter
29973 "The Running of the Bulls" [SFMA] - WINNER of the Mighty Big Story Arc Contest !
- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform