[ QUOTE ]
if you can come up with a way in which a player could make the empowerment stations unaffordable, then I'd love to hear it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Excuse me. The Wizard of Oz called. They need their straw man back.
Good God, your deliberate obtuseness astounds even this jaded long-time subscriber to these boards! Im getting really tired of you putting words into my mouth. SHOW ME where I said that PLAYERS would make empowerment stations unaffordable. My first, last, and only point has always been that the DEVS could easily screw it up, because they have made so many simple and obvious errors in the past. What part of devs do you not understand? Im saying that the devs might set the price of these things too high. The devs might make a mistake here. Your confidence in the devs could be misplaced. The devs have made errors in the past, and may therefore make an error here. Im talking about the devs. If the devs are not paying attention, empowerment stations might cost too much. Do you get it yet? How many more times do I need to say devs? Five more? Devs, devs, devs, devs, devs. Devs =/= players. The devs can make errors independent of the actions of the players. The players are not the devs. Whats that? You need to hear devs a few more times? OK. Devs, devs, devs, devs, devs, devs, devs, devs, devs.
SheeeeeEEEEEEEEEEeeeeesh!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
your argument changes again into catastrophically stupid (as opposed to, I guess, regular everyday stupidity).
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. Because they would have to be catastrophically stupid to overprice empowerment stations by accident.
[/ QUOTE ]
It would be almost as catastrophically stupid as making giant walking XP piñatas called Winter Lords and putting dozens of them in each and every zone so that players could go from level 1 to 50 in just a couple of weeks, leaving the city overrun with high-level characters who cannot afford to buy their own SO enhancements and who dont have the faintest clue how to play their own characters, many of whom quickly quit CoH because its boring and theyve done everything (even though they have in fact done almost nothing).
I gave that example already. This time I held your hand and walked you through it. Try and keep up.
You seem to have this truly bizarre idea that numerous examples of past mistakes from the devs has nothing to do with the possibility of them making future mistakes!
Lets see
accidentally over-reward for killing Winter Lords
accidentally over-price empowerment stations. Accidentally over-reward for killing Winter Lords
accidentally over-price empowerment stations
. Accidentally over-reward for killing Winter Lords
accidentally over-price empowerment stations.
Nope. Looks like I lost you.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Youre comparing the game breaking effect of moving travel powers to level 46 with the game breaking effect of over pricing a few pieces of totally optional base equipment.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, I'm saying that a comparatively high level of incompetence would be needed to do either of these things unintentionally. And that's what you're just not looking at.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ummm
That is the exact comparison you made. In fact, you just made it again! I said, youre comparing and you said, no, its comparatively. So in your mind comparing =/= comparatively ??????
Hoooooooo -
Leeeeeeeee -
Craaaaaaaaap!!!!
[ QUOTE ]
The point where I first expressed disbelief at the reaction here was when someone suggested that the Devs would require players to get unaffordably large rooms to place otherwise affordable stations in.
[/ QUOTE ]
I got that. I got it right out the gate. I understood it completely the first time you said it. You were responding to Red Zero.
[ QUOTE ]
That suggestion is ridiculous. Or don't you think so?
[/ QUOTE ]
Ummmmm
.
...
errrr..
*looks back on numerous posts where I clearly disagree with Sadako*
.
*reads the posts again*
*prints out all of my posts on paper and highlights the sentences where I say that I disagree with Sadako*
*runs out of highlighter ink*
.
(Help me out here people! As God is my witness
I cannot tell if Sadako is serious or not!)
"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter
29973 "The Running of the Bulls" [SFMA] - WINNER of the Mighty Big Story Arc Contest !
- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform
[ QUOTE ]
Here's the current numbers in testing (subject to change):
Base Entry Room: Free
Workshop Room (2x2): 100,000p
Lowest Power Empowerment Station: 15,000p
Salvage Rack: 15,000p
Total Cost for working Salvage storage and a working Empowerment Station: 130,000 Prestige
[/ QUOTE ]
Not bad, though I guess we need a workshop now. No need for a workshop up till now for our SG, with nothing to build that was affordable.
However, that leaves the 2 most interesting items to me, with no prices given yet: enhancement and inspiration containers!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is this a different workshop than where you place your workbenches? If not, 30K to put this stuff in isn't bad.
[/ QUOTE ]
My read on that is that the emp station/storage items take up the same "slot" as a workbench would, which is what I've been positing all along. So they'd need their own workroom.
[/ QUOTE ]
Empowerment Stations occupy the Empowerment slot, not a Workbench slot.
Positron
Follow me on Twitter
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Im well aware of his explanation, but that only proves my point. If there was no deliberate deceit on his part, what we have left is stupidity and/or incompetence. I vote for incompetence, myself, because I dont think Jack is stupid. As you said, Does it effect powers in an incredibly dramatic way? Heck yes it does. So, given the huge effect that ED had on powers, only a truly incompetent person could fail to realize that ED was a major change to powers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Incompetence is a very harsh word and one that I don't use lightly.
Maybe I've just had too many bad experiences with management, but more often than not people in positions of authority fail to see the forest for the trees, as it were.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I felt that incompetence was better than stupidity.
Seriously, I find it difficult to think of a better word to use. While I didnt like ED, the way it came bounding at us on the heels of the i5 nerfs (or was it the i6 nerfs? Theyre starting to blur together) after Jacks statement that there would be no more major nerfage
wow! Talk about a PR debacle!
But it seems were just talking semantics. In your forest for the trees example, I would label that incompetence. After all, it is the function of management to hold onto the Big Picture. If they lose sight of it
then theyre not earning their salaries. 
"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter
29973 "The Running of the Bulls" [SFMA] - WINNER of the Mighty Big Story Arc Contest !
- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform
[ QUOTE ]
Empowerment Stations occupy the Empowerment slot, not a Workbench slot.
[/ QUOTE ]
Are Storage items their own classification as well, or do they fit into Empowerment or Workbench?
@Mindshadow
[ QUOTE ]
Here's the current numbers in testing (subject to change):
Base Entry Room: Free
Workshop Room (2x2): 100,000p
Lowest Power Empowerment Station (requires 0 Energy, 0 Control): 15,000p
Salvage Rack (requires 0 Energy, 0 Control): 15,000p
Total Cost for working Salvage storage and a working Empowerment Station: 130,000 Prestige
EDIT: Added in Energy and Control numbers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Do the multiple tiers of powerstation do different things like work tables currently, thus forcing us to have 1 of each. 2 of each if we want to use every bit of salvage we get. Or will the highest version of the station be the overall best, period?
Also roughly how large will these thngs be?
[ QUOTE ]
Empowerment Stations occupy the Empowerment slot, not a Workbench slot.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which I gather means you could put crafting stations, and empowerment stations, and storage stations in the same room. That's quite nice.
[ QUOTE ]
Here's the current numbers in testing (subject to change):
Base Entry Room: Free
Workshop Room (2x2): 100,000p
Lowest Power Empowerment Station: 15,000p
Salvage Rack: 15,000p
Total Cost for working Salvage storage and a working Empowerment Station: 130,000 Prestige
[/ QUOTE ]
Uh... Thanks! 
I see the "subject to change" however, this looks like a very good start. My next series of questions (you knew there'd be more, right?):
What type of item is the Empowerment Station?
What type of item is the Salvage Rack?
Do either of these items take up the space of a crafting table (thus making it less useful for medium size SGs that haven't upgraded their plot)?
While I'm thinking of it, can we get aracen/tech versions of each?
[ QUOTE ]
Do the multiple tiers of powerstation do different things like work tables currently, thus forcing us to have 1 of each.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd say maybe. I think the advanced one will give a larger buff then the small one. But it may be worth it to have both depending on what is required salvage wise to run the empowerment station.
[ QUOTE ]
Also roughly how large will these thngs be?
[/ QUOTE ]
Based on the screen shot. The basic empowerment stations take up 1/4th of a square. The advanced ones take up 1 square.
So you could easily fit 2 empowerment stations, and 2 work tables in a single 2x2 room, as an example.
[ QUOTE ]
My read on that is that the emp station/storage items take up the same "slot" as a workbench would, which is what I've been positing all along. So they'd need their own workroom.
[/ QUOTE ]
On the Info for each base plot there's a listing for Storage items, which say you can have unlimited. I'm hoping Salvage Racks won't count against your limit of 6 Workshop items.
Actually, it will be a problem if the Salvage Rack forces you to sacrifice a Robotic Fabricator for this salvage swap convenience. 5% of the cost of your destroyable items may not be worth convenience.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Im well aware of his explanation, but that only proves my point. If there was no deliberate deceit on his part, what we have left is stupidity and/or incompetence. I vote for incompetence, myself, because I dont think Jack is stupid. As you said, Does it effect powers in an incredibly dramatic way? Heck yes it does. So, given the huge effect that ED had on powers, only a truly incompetent person could fail to realize that ED was a major change to powers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Incompetence is a very harsh word and one that I don't use lightly.
Maybe I've just had too many bad experiences with management, but more often than not people in positions of authority fail to see the forest for the trees, as it were.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I felt that incompetence was better than stupidity.
Seriously, I find it difficult to think of a better word to use. While I didnt like ED, the way it came bounding at us on the heels of the i5 nerfs (or was it the i6 nerfs? Theyre starting to blur together) after Jacks statement that there would be no more major nerfage
wow! Talk about a PR debacle!
[/ QUOTE ]
Please make sure to not put words in other people's mouth. I'd go and check the exact quote that Jack posted. He definitely did not say there would be no more nerfage.
But still I fear and still I dare not laugh at the madman!
One man's "meh" is another man's "zomg". - Leatherneck
Procrastination meter coming soon.
[ QUOTE ]
Here's the current numbers in testing (subject to change):
Base Entry Room: Free
Workshop Room (2x2): 100,000p
Lowest Power Empowerment Station (requires 0 Energy, 0 Control): 15,000p
Salvage Rack (requires 0 Energy, 0 Control): 15,000p
Total Cost for working Salvage storage and a working Empowerment Station: 130,000 Prestige
EDIT: Added in Energy and Control numbers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thank you positron for finally giving us some numbers. We do appreciate it.
[ QUOTE ]
What type of item is the Empowerment Station?
[/ QUOTE ]
It's an Empowerment Station item. I.E. it has it's own type, same for the storage vaults I'd assume.
[ QUOTE ]
Do either of these items take up the space of a crafting table.
[/ QUOTE ]
They take up floorspace, but not item type slots. So you could put 2 crafting tables and 2 empowerment stations in a 2x2 workshop.
[ QUOTE ]
While I'm thinking of it, can we get aracen/tech versions of each?
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure there will be both versions.
[ QUOTE ]
Seriously, I find it difficult to think of a better word to use. While I didnt like ED, the way it came bounding at us on the heels of the i5 nerfs (or was it the i6 nerfs? Theyre starting to blur together) after Jacks statement that there would be no more major nerfage
wow! Talk about a PR debacle!
[/ QUOTE ]
TP be precise, Jack said there would be no more major changes to powers.
From a designer point of view, enhancements and powers are not the same.
From the player point of view, they are.
Dooooooom.
[ QUOTE ]
But it seems were just talking semantics. In your forest for the trees example, I would label that incompetence. After all, it is the function of management to hold onto the Big Picture. If they lose sight of it
then theyre not earning their salaries.
[/ QUOTE ]
This thread has been about semantic for about 200 posts now... 
Maybe Jack's big picture is different than yours? Anyway, Positron has posted actual numbers. I need to go take my heart pill before something bad happens. j/k
[ QUOTE ]
SHOW ME where I said that PLAYERS would make empowerment stations unaffordable. My first, last, and only point has always been that the DEVS could easily screw it up, because they have made so many simple and obvious errors in the past. What part of devs do you not understand?
[/ QUOTE ]
What you are evidently having immense trouble grasping is the NATURE of the errors that the Devs have made, which you cited. They all depended upon player use to screw them up. My point, which is really very simple, is that making a design decision to which players then react to unexpectedly is NOT the same as making a design decision that cripples your intent in and of itself, straight off the bat, making it unworkable for the very players for which it was intended (small SGs).
[ QUOTE ]
Im saying that the devs might set the price of these things too high.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh, do pay attention - the idea that they might set the price too high for some people's tastes isn't being disputed. The idea that they might set them too high by a) requiring a big room to put them in and b) brainlessly overlooking the prestige cost HAS been disputed.
Or - as I keep asking - do you perhaps think that's a valid concern? Do you really think the Devs would accidentally make empowerment stations too expensive by SOMEHOW requiring you to buy huge rooms for them? Maybe I could get an answer this time, instead of your delightful rhetoric?
[ QUOTE ]
You seem to have this truly bizarre idea that numerous examples of past mistakes from the devs has nothing to do with the possibility of them making future mistakes!
[/ QUOTE ]
Are you really not capable of telling the difference between different KINDS of mistake? It's one thing not to anticipate what players will do with Winter Lords. It's another to promise affordable additions which then turn out to be unaffordable, not by design but by oversight.
By the way, there are numbers now, so this discussion is redundant.
Just as well. I hate disagreeing with someone with an Invader Zim icon.
[ QUOTE ]
Total Cost for working Salvage storage and a working Empowerment Station: 130,000 Prestige
[/ QUOTE ]
7 members at 20,000 bonus Prestige per member = 140,000 Prestige
Minimum number of members necessary to achieve this: 7.
Devs' idea of a small SG: seven members.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is this a different workshop than where you place your workbenches? If not, 30K to put this stuff in isn't bad.
[/ QUOTE ]
My read on that is that the emp station/storage items take up the same "slot" as a workbench would, which is what I've been positing all along. So they'd need their own workroom.
[/ QUOTE ]
Empowerment Stations occupy the Empowerment slot, not a Workbench slot.
[/ QUOTE ]
I just checked the base editor. There's nothing in either workroom type for an "empowerment slot," so I assume this will be added with i7. Positron didn't say how many empowerment slots each size room would have, but he did use the singular noun.
Another question would be: If there's a storage locker in one workroom, would all the salvage in it be useable by the benches and forges in the other workrooms? Also, the question of quantity is important. I'm full up on Alien Tach, and so is everyone else in my SG. How much of a given item will the locker hold?
And THANK YOU for the information.
"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter
29973 "The Running of the Bulls" [SFMA] - WINNER of the Mighty Big Story Arc Contest !
- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform
[ QUOTE ]
Empowerment Stations occupy the Empowerment slot, not a Workbench slot.
[/ QUOTE ]
So do Storage items occupy a Storage slot?
[ QUOTE ]
Here's the current numbers in testing (subject to change):
Base Entry Room: Free
Workshop Room (2x2): 100,000p
Lowest Power Empowerment Station (requires 0 Energy, 0 Control): 15,000p
Salvage Rack (requires 0 Energy, 0 Control): 15,000p
Total Cost for working Salvage storage and a working Empowerment Station: 130,000 Prestige
EDIT: Added in Energy and Control numbers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Adds more questions:
1) What is the energy control cost for the Lvl 2 and Lvl 3 empowerment stations and storage units? Do they scale as badly as work stations?
2) You stated there are empowerment slots, how many per 2x2 workshop? 3x4?
3) There are empowerment slots, are there storage slots and how many per 2x2 workshop? 3x4?
4) Are there 2 or 3 storage stations? Lvl 1= Salvage and Lvl 2=Insps/Enhancements OR is it Lvl 1=Salvage, Lvl 2=Inspirations and Lvl 3=Enhancements?
5) How much will the lvl 2 and lvl 3 empowerment stations/storage items cost? (Best guess is they follow the pattern of the work stations as follows: Lvl 1 = 15K, Lvl 2 = 30K, Lvl 3 = 60K)
6) How much would it cost a small SG to have all 3 empowerment stations plus 2-3 storage stations? (Best guess is a minimum 1M prestige for 2 2x2 Workshops, 3 empowerment stations, 2-3 storage stations, basic mainframe w/room, and basic generator w/ room)
7) How much would it cost a small SG to have all 3 empowerment stations plus 2-3 storage stations, AND keep all of their existing 3 work stations, 4 teleporters, and medical facilities? (Best guess is a minimum of 6.5 million prestige for a 8x12 plot, 2-3 2x2 Workshops, 3 work stations, 3 empowerment stations, 2-3 storage stations, advanced mainframe w/room, and advances generator w/ room)
Smallest investment: 130K
Largest investment to add new functionality w/out losing current capabilities: 6.5M
[ QUOTE ]
Please make sure to not put words in other people's mouth. I'd go and check the exact quote that Jack posted. He definitely did not say there would be no more nerfage.
[/ QUOTE ]
Paraphrasing is not putting words into someone's mouth. Jack said that they were done making major changes to powers. I believe my point was clear without the the need for semantic quibbling.
"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter
29973 "The Running of the Bulls" [SFMA] - WINNER of the Mighty Big Story Arc Contest !
- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Total Cost for working Salvage storage and a working Empowerment Station: 130,000 Prestige
[/ QUOTE ]
7 members at 20,000 bonus Prestige per member = 140,000 Prestige
Minimum number of members necessary to achieve this: 7.
Devs' idea of a small SG: seven members.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's only true if the people in the SG don't play the game at all. It is not unreasonable to expect people to play the game a little.
3 people get a 60k bonus. Those 3 people can easily earn the other 70k in a week or two of moderate play.
Another HUGE question. If I place my salvage/inspirations/enhancements in the storage station and an SG Base Architect sells the storage station to temporarily free up cash/space/move rooms around, what happens to the salvage/inspirations/enhancements? This is a major question requiring an answer IMO.
[ QUOTE ]
Is this a different workshop than where you place your workbenches? If not, 30K to put this stuff in isn't bad.
[/ QUOTE ]
My read on that is that the emp station/storage items take up the same "slot" as a workbench would, which is what I've been positing all along. So they'd need their own workroom.
@Mindshadow