[ QUOTE ]
With data points you can determine the baseline.
[/ QUOTE ]
My point is that there is no reason to suppose that the Devs have excluded even the smallest SGs from their definition of 'small'. You're acting as if a 'small' SG had to have some kind of a minimum level of membership. You're also acting as if it's important that these new features should be worked for - that whole 'you don't value it unless it cost you' line. I don't think that's the design philosophy here at all. This is supposed to be a boost for small SGs, not a new sort of carrot to keep small SGs grinding away.
[ QUOTE ]
My point is that there is no reason to suppose that the Devs have excluded even the smallest SGs from their definition of 'small'. You're acting as if a 'small' SG had to have some kind of a minimum level of membership.
[/ QUOTE ]
But that's just the question, isn't it? What do they want to encourage with SGs? The membership bonus cuts off at 15. So is that their baseline? Do they assume that most SGs have reached that 15 member mark (padding the SG with alts)? Or do they think expect membership to be higher? Or lower? We just don't know. Everything we are talking about here is pure speculation and entirely subjective because we don't know what their model represents.
That said... I don't expect these empowerment stations to be very expensive. I imagine that with a week or two of semi-dedicated play (10-15 hours in total), even a one person SG could afford the basic station. That's just my guess though. In the long run, it will be most costly in terms of salvage consumption if it is used regularly.
Another thing I do expect is that these stations will be hot items for base raids because their buffs last so long (essentially until you're defeated). Because base raids are essentially non-existant at this point (with a few noteworthy exceptions), there's not enough data to look at how this is going to affect all aspects of the game.
[ QUOTE ]
You're also acting as if it's important that these new features should be worked for - that whole 'you don't value it unless it cost you' line. I don't think that's the design philosophy here at all. This is supposed to be a boost for small SGs, not a new sort of carrot to keep small SGs grinding away.
[/ QUOTE ]
I tend to agree with that, except that it is a carrot for small SGs, in a way.
Its being included so that small SGs can have something functional. Something to keep them interested in holding the group together instead of being absorbed into a large group. Something to keep them from needing to beg a buff from passing defenders/controllers/corruptors before they go back into the mission to fight the boss that just laid them out.
[ QUOTE ]
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The problem, in a nutshell, is that some people don't think they really mean it.
[/ QUOTE ]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
[/ QUOTE ]
That's not an ad hominem in the slightest. Some people are doubtful that the Devs are going to deliver. Saying so does not amount to a personal attack.
[/ QUOTE ]
And the reason for that disbelief (in this case) is that Prestige costs for items are incredibly out of wack for super-bases.
Almost everything SBs are balanced around the utmost min-maxers, even though they just retooled all the powers towards the *median* players.
In the several SGs I've joined recently, the average SG has about 20 people. Not 50+ that play regularly.
They really goofed on their numbers here and it totally shocking to me that they can't see it and are not taking any steps to really fix.
Still here, even after all this time!
[ QUOTE ]
Its being included so that small SGs can have something functional.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, exactly. It's there to make bases have a POINT. And making bases USEFUL is so crucial to getting the whole base idea back on track that they'd be crazy not to make the empowerment stations easily available.
Well to start placing some scale on the table, I personally scale SG size to the following:
Small SG: 4-16 regular players*/1-2 full teams
Medium SG: 17-32 regular players/2-4 full teams
Large SG: 33-48 regular players/4-6 full teams
Huge SG: 49-75 regular players/6-9 full teams
Who agrees/doesn't agree?
*Physical players; not characters or "alts" which can make up the remaining 75 limit.
[ QUOTE ]
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Still, you simply havent been reading my words very closely. Most of the examples I gave earlier had nothing to do with what they said,
[/ QUOTE ]
This whole kerfuffle is based on what they said. If it had been based on a decision, then there might be some merit to it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sigh.
WHAT has happened to reading comprehension these days?
Here are my first words in this thread:
[ QUOTE ]
They never thought that characters would have perma-MoG. They never thought that griefers would TP others into towers and trap them. They never thought that players would slot 1 acc and 5 dmg SO's into an attack power. They never thought that anyone would farm kracken in the sewer trial. They never thought that people with pre-i2 characters would complain about the impossibility of them getting the Isolator badge. They never thought anyone would level up insanely fast on Winter Lords (the XP pinatas). They never thought that anyone would farm the Hamidon for +50/+50 enhancements day after day after day. They never thought that anyone would use the wolf mission for PLing, or after that the "dead scanner" mission, or after that the "Dreck" mission....
[/ QUOTE ]
NONE of the examples that I gave above, which were the start of the kerfuffle you and I are involved in, has anything to do with what a dev said. You know, all of these examples are of decisions.
Try again.
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Im just calling you out on your utterly unsupportable position that the devs cannot make an error
[/ QUOTE ]
But this is the kind of error that would be tantamount to giving bazookas to Hellions or moving travel powers to level 46. The Devs are NOT infallible. I've never said that they are, not once. But they are NOT catastrophically stupid either.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nice how your arguments morph when your own words are shot down. You start out by saying (implying, actually) that the devs would surely have thought of everything when they price the new base items. So I give examples of other bad outcomes to their decisions that they never thought of. Then to you it all suddenly becomes an argument about what a red name said. When I post the classic example of a direct statement from a red name that was in conflict with later reality, you claim vagueness, but not necessarily deceit, stupidity, or incompetence. When I point out that at least one of these three had to be involved, your argument changes again into catastrophically stupid (as opposed to, I guess, regular everyday stupidity).
And speaking of catastrophically stupid:
Youre comparing the game breaking effect of moving travel powers to level 46 with the game breaking effect of over pricing a few pieces of totally optional base equipment. 
Riiiiiiiiight.
"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter
29973 "The Running of the Bulls" [SFMA] - WINNER of the Mighty Big Story Arc Contest !
- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform
[ QUOTE ]
NONE of the examples that I gave above, which were the start of the kerfuffle you and I are involved in,
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm afraid that this has nothing to do with 'you and I' - that's not the kerfuffle I was talking about. I was referring to the ongoing disagreement about the likely pricing of the empowerment stations, to which you are but one contributor.
[ QUOTE ]
has anything to do with what a dev said. You know, all of these examples are of decisions.
[/ QUOTE ]
And the whole reason why your examples are inapplicable to the discussion is that they do have to do with decisions that have been taken and the results of which are evident, rather than inferences made from statements like 'easily affordable'.
Try to keep up. 
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You start out by saying (implying, actually) that the devs would surely have thought of everything when they price the new base items.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. There are a few, extremely limited, influences on item cost, and it's safe to say they would have thought of all of them.
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So I give examples of other bad outcomes to their decisions that they never thought of.
[/ QUOTE ]
... which had to do with unexpected things that the players did with their ideas. Now, I'm sure they should have thought of some of these things in advance; but if you can come up with a way in which a player could make the empowerment stations unaffordable, then I'd love to hear it.
[ QUOTE ]
Then to you it all suddenly becomes an argument about what a red name said.
[/ QUOTE ]
This has all proceeded from what a redname said, and whether said redname can be trusted to deliver... that has been the crux from the word go.
[ QUOTE ]
When I post the classic example of a direct statement from a red name that was in conflict with later reality, you claim vagueness, but not necessarily deceit, stupidity, or incompetence. When I point out that at least one of these three had to be involved,
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't remember agreeing with you on that.
[ QUOTE ]
your argument changes again into catastrophically stupid (as opposed to, I guess, regular everyday stupidity).
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. Because they would have to be catastrophically stupid to overprice empowerment stations by accident.
[ QUOTE ]
Youre comparing the game breaking effect of moving travel powers to level 46 with the game breaking effect of over pricing a few pieces of totally optional base equipment.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, I'm saying that a comparatively high level of incompetence would be needed to do either of these things unintentionally. And that's what you're just not looking at. The point where I first expressed disbelief at the reaction here was when someone suggested that the Devs would require players to get unaffordably large rooms to place otherwise affordable stations in. That suggestion is ridiculous. Or don't you think so?
[ QUOTE ]
Well to start placing some scale on the table, I personally scale SG size to the following:
Small SG: 4-16 regular players*/1-2 full teams
Medium SG: 17-32 regular players/2-4 full teams
Large SG: 33-48 regular players/4-6 full teams
Huge SG: 49-75 regular players/6-9 full teams
Who agrees/doesn't agree?
*Physical players; not characters or "alts" which can make up the remaining 75 limit.
[/ QUOTE ]
I won't disagree with you as that is what you think/believe.
The SG I belong to consists of 3 casual players, who hope that these empowerment stations are truly affordable even to us. Out base currently consists of the deafult room with some decorations, and we have approx. 300K prestige banked ATM.
So where does 3 casual players [probably less than 10hrs/wk each] fit in. I guess you need a fifth level there, puny/miniscule.
[ QUOTE ]
The SG I belong to consists of 3 casual players, who hope that these empowerment stations are truly affordable even to us. Out base currently consists of the deafult room with some decorations, and we have approx. 300K prestige banked ATM.
[/ QUOTE ]
300k is enough to afford a functional room + items, so even in the most expensive case scenario we're positing, you'd probably be able to afford an empowerment station.
@Mindshadow
[ QUOTE ]
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Statesman says, Were done making major changes to powers. Then two months later ED is pushed through the test server and onto live in record time. Either Jacks previous statement was deceitful, or it showed some serious stupidity and/or incompetence.
[/ QUOTE ]
Or in this case... a misperception on his part. That's his story anyway. As shady as it seems to some, I'm willing to take him as face value on this score because it sure wouldn't be the first time I've seen someone in management make change to poilcy, procedure, etc. without fully considering its impact.
Remember, that in ED, no numbers on the base powers were changed to facilitate the revision. In the mind of a manager like Jack, thet're not changing the powers. Its an entirely different system that is being adjusted. Does it effect powers in an incredibly dramatic way? Heck yes it does.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, thats Jacks story, and hes sticking to it! 
Im well aware of his explanation, but that only proves my point. If there was no deliberate deceit on his part, what we have left is stupidity and/or incompetence. I vote for incompetence, myself, because I dont think Jack is stupid. As you said, Does it effect powers in an incredibly dramatic way? Heck yes it does. So, given the huge effect that ED had on powers, only a truly incompetent person could fail to realize that ED was a major change to powers.
(In my opinion, of course.)
"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter
29973 "The Running of the Bulls" [SFMA] - WINNER of the Mighty Big Story Arc Contest !
- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform
[ QUOTE ]
So where does 3 casual players [probably less than 10hrs/wk each] fit in. I guess you need a fifth level there, puny/miniscule.
[/ QUOTE ]
Please don't take this as an insult but less than 4 members is a "club" not a "supergroup". Two players is a Dynamic Duo; three players is a "Superhero X and his amazing friends." To me a Supergroup is four or more players.
(As an aside, how many years would the Fantastic Four have to play COX to afford the functionality in "Freedom Four Plaza"?)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Its being included so that small SGs can have something functional.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, exactly. It's there to make bases have a POINT. And making bases USEFUL is so crucial to getting the whole base idea back on track that they'd be crazy not to make the empowerment stations easily available.
[/ QUOTE ]
Whoa. Hey. Not really disagreeing with you. Not even questioning their intelligence, compentence, or anything.
[ QUOTE ]
Me:
I don't expect these empowerment stations to be very expensive. I imagine that with a week or two of semi-dedicated play (10-15 hours in total), even a one person SG could afford the basic station. That's just my guess though. In the long run, it will be most costly in terms of salvage consumption if it is used regularly.
[/ QUOTE ]
I just want to know what info they're using to construct their SGs models. Since that information is not forthcoming, and probably will not be (for various reasons), this whole debate is pretty pointless.
We know that the player base expects the world of the Dev team, but what are the expectations that the Devs have of the players? Heh, I'd put money on the notion that threads like this are on their list... 
I will hope these empowerment stations are 'affordable'. I will hope they are 'useful'. I happen to agree with Zubenelgenubi. Their track record doesn't give me much hope. You can find plenty of posts where people think the devs must be smoking something if they think base costs and prices are 'affordable'.
That is all I read into Zubenelgenubi's posts. He has his doubts as to whether or not these will be affordable based on previous observations. Same here. I'm not going to blindly believe these will be affordable. Or even useful. Teleporters and rez rings haven't been all that useful to our SG.
Inspiration storage will be nice since the healing badges to get dispensers are so damn hard to get for small SGs. I would have to do 65 Hami raids to do enough healing to get one after seeing I did 150,000 points in last night's raid. And yes, I know, I'm not supposed to be alone in getting that badge. Small SGs of ten people don't have nothing but defenders or controllers with healing abilities. Occasionally they have something like blasters, scrappers and tanks who don't heal. So inspiration storage will be useful in that regard.
You believe the devs will have the common sense to set the prices right and won't screw things up because these are meant for small SGs. I hope you're right, but I don't have that kind of faith in them. I normally try to be patient and give them the benefit of the doubt, but anymore I feel like I'm paying $15 a month to be one of their beta testers.
I hope you're right, but I'm not going to be as trusting as you are.
The answer is 42, it will cost 42 prestige to do all the things you need to do!
Seriously though, this thread is just ridiculous... It's nothing but a cyclical argumnet that will only end when things are put out there to be tested, so why doesn't everyone just chill and let's get back to PLAYING the game?
[ QUOTE ]
It's nothing but a cyclical argumnet that will only end when things are put out there to be tested, so why doesn't everyone just chill and let's get back to PLAYING the game?
[/ QUOTE ]Because...I'm at work you see...
[ QUOTE ]
Im well aware of his explanation, but that only proves my point. If there was no deliberate deceit on his part, what we have left is stupidity and/or incompetence. I vote for incompetence, myself, because I dont think Jack is stupid. As you said, Does it effect powers in an incredibly dramatic way? Heck yes it does. So, given the huge effect that ED had on powers, only a truly incompetent person could fail to realize that ED was a major change to powers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Incompetence is a very harsh word and one that I don't use lightly. Remember that Snickers commercial from a few years back? The one with the guidence counseler? "Gross incompetence, another sure sign of hunger." Man, I loved that commercial... And THAT was incompetence.
Maybe I've just had too many bad experiences with management, but more often than not people in positions of authority fail to see the forest for the trees, as it were. I almost expect it anymore. Talk of procedural changes absolutely makes me cringe.
But if anything, its shortsightedness on his part. More than that though, he is at fault for not listening to Pos' (or was it pohsyb?) concerns about the change.
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(In my opinion, of course.)
[/ QUOTE ]
Opinions - one more thing that everyone has. 
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So where does 3 casual players [probably less than 10hrs/wk each] fit in. I guess you need a fifth level there, puny/miniscule.
[/ QUOTE ]
Please don't take this as an insult but less than 4 members is a "club" not a "supergroup". Two players is a Dynamic Duo; three players is a "Superhero X and his amazing friends." To me a Supergroup is four or more players.
(As an aside, how many years would the Fantastic Four have to play COX to afford the functionality in "Freedom Four Plaza"?)
[/ QUOTE ]
That's pretty entertaining. Regardless of your standards of group size, a 1 man or 75 man group have the same form when they bring up their settings, both are considered SG's in the game. A 1 man SG can buy the same exact things a 75 man group can buy, granted it would take and exponentially longer time. Both earn prestige and salvage. Right now the base system is geared around super-huge groups. I like to compare the game with comics, since that is what it is derived from. There may be one or two groups in comics that can boast a 75 man roster and that is probably counting inactive members. Most hero and villain groups in comics are 1 to 20 members. I think the game has steered away from comics since its inception .
I think the DEV's know that they can't price things based on the average size of an SG or otherwise the large 60-75 man groups would have nearly everything already, hence all pricing is based on the max group size assuming all are active players. If you had a group of 75 active players churning out 50-100K prestige per week, you would see groups on the low end with 70-73 Million and a high end of 146 Million. Yet right now, even with full rosters, high end groups are only around 15 - 20 million. I think a lot of the high end players want their own group, I do, I don't want to be someone's lackey. I want to play around with the base, so I have my own. So the point I'm trying to make is, the base pricing system is flawed unless you have a full group of the most active players making 50-100K a week.
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The answer is 42, it will cost 42 prestige to do all the things you need to do!
[/ QUOTE ]
But what is it we need to do?
[ QUOTE ]
Seriously though, this thread is just ridiculous... It's nothing but a cyclical argumnet that will only end when things are put out there to be tested, so why doesn't everyone just chill and let's get back to PLAYING the game?
[/ QUOTE ]
Also stuck at work. 
Chilling out will come at around 9pm tonight when my kid is soundly asleep and I can start playing catch up on my St. Patrick's day "celebrations" while electrocuting some Rularuu as I gather Kora. 
Wish there was a base portal to/from the Shard.
[ QUOTE ]
Wish there was a base portal to/from the Shard.
[/ QUOTE ]Yeah, and I'd gladly pay double my normal monthly COX fee if they would release a portal from my office to my home.
Though "personally" I don't have a lot of prestige to burn.
Here's the current numbers in testing (subject to change):
Base Entry Room: Free
Workshop Room (2x2): 100,000p
Lowest Power Empowerment Station (requires 0 Energy, 0 Control): 15,000p
Salvage Rack (requires 0 Energy, 0 Control): 15,000p
Total Cost for working Salvage storage and a working Empowerment Station: 130,000 Prestige
EDIT: Added in Energy and Control numbers.
Positron
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Power and control needed for these? That would bump up the price a bit...
Arc #345863 - When The Bough Breaks
"Curse you Perry the Plata...wait, is that Love Handel?" - Dr. Heinz Doofenshmirtz, Phineas and Ferb
Holy ****, numbers.
I'm... I'm dreaming aren't I.
@Mindshadow
[ QUOTE ]
Power and control needed for these? That would bump up the price a bit...
[/ QUOTE ]
They explicitly don't require power/control.
@Mindshadow
[ QUOTE ]
Here's the current numbers in testing (subject to change):
Base Entry Room: Free
Workshop Room (2x2): 100,000p
Lowest Power Empowerment Station: 15,000p
Salvage Rack: 15,000p
Total Cost for working Salvage storage and a working Empowerment Station: 130,000 Prestige
[/ QUOTE ]
Is this a different workshop than where you place your workbenches? If not, 30K to put this stuff in isn't bad.
[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't make sense for us to set out to help small supergroups and then charge large supergroup Prestige for the items.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is what you came up with to help small SGs!? Are these new base "features" actually going to work, unlike a lot of the other base bugs?