I don't disagree, when the competition is low in the zones I often turn Stealth off. However, not running Stealth when the competition is good is not a good idea. Running into a full Tribute team without as much -PER will make ya realize how little damage Stalkers do compared to Blappers.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
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. As it is its the least used attack for most Stalkers.
[/ QUOTE ] That's just ridiculous. It is the MOST used attack in PvP. The first thing ANY stalker tries do is AS someone. I'm /SR...teamed, I see exactly what happens.
Sorry...you've lost all credibility.
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You gotta be kidding... Why do you think there are so many EM Stalkers? It isnt because there AS is so much better... Heck, I play a Ninja Blade/Ninjitsu Stalker and I dont even open with AS on squishies!
You're just simply wrong on this one, and other things.
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I dont even open with AS on squishies!
[/ QUOTE ]Right..right...and you constitute the tactics used by the vast majority of stalkers? No...no you don't.
The vast majorityof stalkers open with AS. EM's use ET or Bone Smasher for the disorient on squishies...but on scrappers and tanks...AS.
It's a safe bet that the majority of PvP'ers on the hero side are scrappers.
If you want to argue that AS gets "activated" the fewest number of times...or actually "hits" the fewest number of times...then I'll chalk it up to typical pro-stalker logic arguing nonsense: arguing something completely immaterial to the issue.
The following skills are skills in my primary set I use more in Siren's Call PvP than Assassin Strike:
-Energy Transfer
-Bonesmasher
-Stun
-Placate
-Build Up
That leaves precisely one skill in my primary set less used than Assassin Strike in Siren's Call PvP: Energy Punch.
Why is this? Because I maximize my kill count by using those other skills as much as I do. It's all well and good to take Assassin Strike kills when you CAN, but I'm just plain unwilling to limit myself, and I see a LOT more openings in an average day for a Bonesmasher/Energy Transfer combination than for an Assassin Strike smackdown.
You just don't know what you're talking about, ultimately. Like most Stalker detractors who haven't actually played Stalkers any meaningful amount -- if at all -- you lack any sort of real perspective on the issue, and judge based on vague notions you've acquired over time instead of any hard data or solid experience.
Faolon we have a difference of opinion.
Faolon said,
"A critical? Is that a joke? Do you know how much damage a tanker is capable of? Now, imagine a Scrapper or Blaster...
My Tanker can drop a stalker to less than half HP with KOB. I've had en EM Tanker nearly one shot me with ET... Adding a critical is just insane."
So you wanna be able to 1 hit peeps with no risk to yourself? I understand that you have the same hit points as a squishy, but what you need to understand is ASSassin Strike trumps that penelty 10 fold. Stalkers are overpowered compared to other villians in PvP. The proof is in the players. There are 5 stalkers to 1 of any other archtype. Also EM is overpowered because out of the 5 stalkers, 3 are EM. I just long for the day when a good PvPer can choose any build and do well in arena and zones. Where you really got me is this line "Do you know how much damage a tanker is capable of?" Ah, yes I do and if your not EM you are not a finisher. I really doubt your KOB with rage is taking a stalker down to 1/2 life if he has a smashing and lethal resist. I could be wrong but I doubt it. Maybe I was a little harsh in saying they should take critical damage. However I believe there should be some disadvantage to even out assassin strike and the other archtypes.
I am PL in RL.
Freedom- Magnet Man, Hott Sauce, Stand-Up Comic
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Faolon we have a difference of opinion.
Faolon said,
"A critical? Is that a joke? Do you know how much damage a tanker is capable of? Now, imagine a Scrapper or Blaster...
My Tanker can drop a stalker to less than half HP with KOB. I've had en EM Tanker nearly one shot me with ET... Adding a critical is just insane."
So you wanna be able to 1 hit peeps with no risk to yourself? I understand that you have the same hit points as a squishy, but what you need to understand is ASSassin Strike trumps that penelty 10 fold. Stalkers are overpowered compared to other villians in PvP. The proof is in the players. There are 5 stalkers to 1 of any other archtype. Also EM is overpowered because out of the 5 stalkers, 3 are EM. I just long for the day when a good PvPer can choose any build and do well in arena and zones. Where you really got me is this line "Do you know how much damage a tanker is capable of?" Ah, yes I do and if your not EM you are not a finisher. I really doubt your KOB with rage is taking a stalker down to 1/2 life if he has a smashing and lethal resist. I could be wrong but I doubt it. Maybe I was a little harsh in saying they should take critical damage. However I believe there should be some disadvantage to even out assassin strike and the other archtypes.
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The only stalker secondary that gives minor lethal resists is /regen, and that bonus is pretty paltry.
Ever fight an ice/EM tank as a stalker? I've been 2-shotted easily by them. And yes, a slotted knockout blow w/rage will take out around 1/2 a stalkers hp.
That's very flawed reasoning. Then scrappers and blasters are overpowered? You see them, scrappers especially, the most.
Stalkers are indeed very powerful, but their power possibly is the only thing that begins to balance hero vs. villain pvp. Honestly, stalkers cannot be nerfed without looking into hero ATs and also nerfing accordingly, or things will be terribly lopsided.
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Do you know where it would be imposslbe to use? 1v1...but wait!!! PvP isn't so supposed to be about 1v1 is it? So why is Castle trying to protect 1v1 only for Stalkers? This is the real impact of a dual range check. It kills AS for repeated use in 1v1 battles when someone knows a stalker is present.
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Oh, if a Stalker misses with AS, Hide drops. What happens when a Stalker's hide drops? Why don't we start simple, and walk through the argument here.
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They run away..
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Do you know where it would be imposslbe to use? 1v1...but wait!!! PvP isn't so supposed to be about 1v1 is it? So why is Castle trying to protect 1v1 only for Stalkers? This is the real impact of a dual range check. It kills AS for repeated use in 1v1 battles when someone knows a stalker is present.
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Oh, if a Stalker misses with AS, Hide drops. What happens when a Stalker's hide drops? Why don't we start simple, and walk through the argument here.
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They run away..
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Durn tootin'! They RUN AWAY. Why? Because the bulk of their damage missed, what is the point in trying to hit with sub-tanker damage?
Well, to be fair, if they're EM they have better than tanker damage. (The other sets I'm not sure about.)
why in the world is everyone bickering over this anyway? you can't be 1-shotted from full HP anymore, thanks to a recent update (or pending update, don't remember which) so its not like you're actually going to be killed by an assasin who hits you as you ran by 4 seconds ago... if you are playing the same as every other "normal" PvPer, you've probably got your travel power on anyway, and are as much as 160 yards away from the stalker by the time you're hit, at which point you are NOT dead, unless you weren't at full HP when hit, which means that you have time to either pop some greens, use some self heal, let a teammate heal you, or contemplate your impending doom LONG before the stalker catches up to you again to finish the job.
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I dont even open with AS on squishies!
[/ QUOTE ]Right..right...and you constitute the tactics used by the vast majority of stalkers? No...no you don't.
The vast majorityof stalkers open with AS. EM's use ET or Bone Smasher for the disorient on squishies...but on scrappers and tanks...AS.
It's a safe bet that the majority of PvP'ers on the hero side are scrappers.
If you want to argue that AS gets "activated" the fewest number of times...or actually "hits" the fewest number of times...then I'll chalk it up to typical pro-stalker logic arguing nonsense: arguing something completely immaterial to the issue.
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I'm right because I see what I want to see. You all don't belong to the majority because you're all saying the wrong things.
And of course we're pro-stalker. We actually PLAY the damn class instead of getting dogged by a couple of them in PvP and coming on here to blow off steam, so we know how they work. And if you don't think we're objective enough, you don't exactly have a rock to stand on either.
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Wait a second. You have someone STANDING AROUND after being ASd and placated long enough for AS to recharge?
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Maybe you're coming late to show punchy.... but you dont' have to be stationary to get AS'd Hello?!!!? What do you think this thread is about.
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Fun fact: You can't activate powers while they recharge.
AS has a recharge time of roughly eight-ten seconds.
If you're staying around that long after being placated, maybe you should consider a change of tactics.
Alas, apparently all you like to do is argue with us and claim you're right because you'll only see what you want to believe.
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Well, to be fair, if they're EM they have better than tanker damage. (The other sets I'm not sure about.)
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I'm just counting my lucky stars that Focus(Claws) hits every once in a while on a blaster, and just don't bother with Tanks unless I've got a corruptor, 2 other stalkers, and a brute or mastermind on the team.
whoa Mieux. Come on mon.
Thor is perfectly reasonable and correct in his statement.
I'll try wording it another way.
Against hard targets(good teams, stormies, emp defs,etc) AS is not used as much by the bulk of Stalkers. Why, because we can't use it. We get interrupted or seen or dot'd etc.
When fighting soft inexperienced targets we still use alot of AS but those with some practice have begun mixing it up more.
So, easy targets AS or mix it up.
Hard targets Anything but AS.
With the drastic increase in pvp experience there are more hard targets so there is less AS.
Did that help? I think ya'll were only inches apart in coming to an understanding.
I understand what you are all saying. To be fair, I have only played a stalker in PvE so I dont know actually how hard it is to Assasin strike in a good zone. I just see the videos...
I will feel less naked after the Patron Powers when everyone and their mothers get smashing and lethal resist. Then Assasin strike will not seem so UBER.
The scenario that I feel helpless in is when a stalker assasin strikes, someone lives, stalker leaves, stalker comes back again. If I am outa insights the stalker is outa view, and I am in same position. I wish there was someway of limiting a stalkers effectiveness at this strategy. (without constant movement)
I just stand by my statement that I will love the day when a good PvP player can pick any build and be a force. Is that day here? It will be when I see a dominating War Mace PvP tanker, or insert any other build you have never seen here. I percieve a lack of balance through powers. We need equality throughout all powersets.
SRY SO OFF TOPIC
I am PL in RL.
Freedom- Magnet Man, Hott Sauce, Stand-Up Comic
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I will feel less naked after the Patron Powers when everyone and their mothers get smashing and lethal resist. Then Assasin strike will not seem so UBER.
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They call that the placebo effect.
Most of the AS's damage goes unresisted... it's untyped.
or is it "critical type"?
Anyways... you can only defend against it... not resist it... so if you're an SR scrapper... you're in luck.
If you're an Invulerability tanker... not so much now.
oh oh...Premium...don't remind me...My poor poor long term spine invuln arena scrapper. All that time and experience flushed by the devs. ugh.
and to the guy before ya.
"good PvP player can pick any build and be a force"
That day is here. In a team that day is here now.
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A good PvP player can pick any build and be a force.
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Many, many things frustrate me about Stalkers. I hate that they can take four powers - Hide, AS, Build Up, and Stealth - and automatically win most solo battles in which the hero doesn't have the leadership pool. With those four powers, I am robbed of any chance to fight back.
Maybe the fault isn't theirs. I've built a Stalker and am trying to play him in order to get a feel for how they work. Maybe I'll eventually decide that it's not the case that 'Stalkers are Easy Mode' and instead come to the conclusion that 'I suck' or 'Tri-Form Warshades are Hard Mode.'
I hate that Stalkers with stacked stealth completely negate every single power in my primary and secondary. When they stack stealth, I will never see them coming. Nobody will, unless they're on a team with a +perception buff or if they're playing a powerset with an inbuilt +perception buff in addition to two powers from the Leadership set.
I have four powers that work against Stalkers, all of which I have to be in Human form to use. They are Orbiting Death, Shadow Cloak, Inky Aspect, and Nebulous Form. For those of you that aren't familiar with Warshades, Orbiting Death is a non-autohit damage aura, Shadow Cloak is a stealth power with +perception, Inky Aspect is a PBAoE disorient toggle, and Nebulous Form is a better version of Phase Shift. Here's what I do:
I travel to the hotspot in Nova Form and immediately phase, so as to get my toggles up in safety. If Heroes control the zone, I use IR goggles. If they don't, I'm SOL. So, I've got all my toggles up. I dart around the Longbow blob, looking like a tool, because I can't be sure of whether there's a Stalker around or not. Then, I start seeing phantom 'miss' messages from my damage aura and disorient toggle. I RUN, usually getting out of range of the AS and teleporting to safety. I pop a few insights (If I have them. If not, SOL again) so I can see him and get past his defenses. Then, I use Gravimetric Snare, since it's DoT and I've got it slotted for two accuracies. I want him out of Hide for as long as possible. I hit him with a few attacks. Then, a couple of things might happen: he might stay and fight, beating me - I'm vulnerable the moment I shapeshift, after all. I can't keep my gimpy Stalker prevention measures up. If he uses placate while I'm in Dwarf form, I'm screwed. I can't run away quick enough to avoid the inevitable AS and the Dwarf teleport leaves me rooted for juuuust long enough for the Stalker to pull it off (incidentally, this is why I think Stalkers should have to make two range checks). A stalker using all of his tricks will always - 100% of the time - be able to defeat me in 1vs1 battles.
(This is fine! Stalkers are the 'can-opener' AT for my squiddy kind. I don't have a problem with that. I do have a problem with the notion that they're able to do this with just four powers, however.)
The other thing they might do is run away. I'll jump into Nova form and harass them for a while, but they always escape. I have never been able to beat a Stalker on my own, even ones that I have an unfair SO advantage over. Then, I'll head back to the Longbow clump and try again, running all the toggles that I've been running. Inevitably, the Stalker comes back. If I'm out of insights, then I'm dead. Perfect Stealth is a Perfect Defense.
All an enemy has to do is run Hide & Stealth, Click Build Up, and attempt to AS me. If it fails, run away. If not, they've just killed me. Please try to see it from my perspective - I'm trying as hard as I can to see it from yours! With four powers, a Stalker is able to defeat me 100% of the time. A poor, unskilled Stalker is one that I can force into a stalemate, either by using Nebulous Form or running away. Even then, they can come back and repeat the same tactic ad nauseam until they get a success. With an infinite number of tries, they'll succeed eventually.
However hard AS is to pull off now, there's no penalty for messing it up. So what if it took you five tries? It's not as if those four failures got you killed.
Maybe this is OK. I have no idea, after all. I'm not a game developer. I'd just like to see a Siren's Call that isn't always Scrappers/Blappers vs. Stalkers, with no other ATs standing a chance unless they build in a specific, cookie-cutter manner.
(For those of you that might be wondering, IR goggles do let me see Stalkers if I stack it with Shadow Cloak. I still lose all of my encounters unless the Stalker absolutely refuses to use other powers (then he'll just leave me alone), but I don't mind, since I actually got a chance to fight back.)
The Ballad of Iron Percy
I think your first issue is a common one, and the root of most peoples problems, even today. Stalkers are hard for most AT's to fight 1v1. The problem with this is that PvP is team balanced.
1 Stalker versus 1 Blaster....Stalker wins most of the time
2 Stalkers versus 1 Blaster and 1 Emp.....about even
3 Stalkers versus 2 Blasters and 1 Emp....Blasters win most of the time
This is provided that both sides have decent PvP builds and equal skill levels.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
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I think your first issue is a common one, and the root of most peoples problems, even today. Stalkers are hard for most AT's to fight 1v1. The problem with this is that PvP is team balanced.
1 Stalker versus 1 Blaster....Stalker wins most of the time
2 Stalkers versus 1 Blaster and 1 Emp.....about even
3 Stalkers versus 2 Blasters and 1 Emp....Blasters win most of the time
This is provided that both sides have decent PvP builds and equal skill levels.
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Yes, you're right. Stalkers are incredibly hard for anyone to fight 1 on 1. In 1v1 combat, the Stalker will win most of the time because of the way they're designed. This, to me, seems to be the entire reason why so many players perceive Stalkers as being unfair. They are balanced vs. teams, since ASing a squishy next to his two friends is a death-sentence. The question I pose is this: is that alright? Is it OK to have one AT dominate all others in solo combat?
Most Stalkers will say 'Yes, this is perfectly alright. I'm balanced on teams (they do seem to be), so the situation is OK as is. If you can't defeat me solo, that's by design.' Solo Squishies will say 'This isn't fair at all. Stalkers will always win against me no matter what I do unless I rebuild my character. Even then, I'll have to accept that they're still going to win almost every time. (This does seem to be the case for most squishy ATs and powerset combinations)'
Neither position is intrinsically right or wrong. If the game is designed to provide balanced solo encounters, Stalkers are grossly overpowered. If the game isn't designed for solo play, Stalkers are just fine.
Everything else is a matter of opinion. Personally, I don't get enjoyment out of being slain by the burst-damage ATs again and again in PvP just because I can't find a team. I don't like not being able to do much more than make myself a difficult target. People like solo PvP. That's why there are so many Stalkers, Scrappers, and Blappers in the zone - they're the best designed to fight other players and win in solo encounters.
If it's the case that PvP will never be balanced 1 on 1, then that system is strongly discouraging to a large portion of the player base. If it's the case that certain ATs negate each other (My Tank stands no chance against a competent Corruptor, for example), then there's no perceived imbalance, since players will assume that the game is Rock/Paper/Scissors in solo play. Everything changes on teams, of course.
So... is this alright? Should I have to stay the heck away from Siren's Call if it's just me and a Stalker in the zone? If this is the case, I'd really like someone with authority to clear it up for me. I'm fairly certain of what the player opinions will be - they're expressed in the dozens of Stalker-related threads on these boards.
The Ballad of Iron Percy
If PvP is balanced for teams to the degree that it's so completely broken for 1v1 that it can never be fixed, should not teaming be a requirement for pvp? What this would mean is that unless you're on a team, you can't attack another player, and you can't be attacked by another player. You simply can't be targeted when you're solo, and you can't target anyone either. It would be like if you were in a safe zone. When you team up there is a 15 second countdown and then you're in pvp mode, and when you drop from the team there is a 60 second countdown before you drop out of pvp mode.
Another idea might be to make pvp zone gaming more like a TF. You have to form a team of a certain size and go to a contact to get started before you can enter the pvp zone. Once on a pvp team you can log out without breaking up the team, and you will remain on the pvp team until you quit it. Note that even if you're on a team there is nothing that says that you can't fight on your own, you don't have to stay within 10 feet of your teammates all the time if you don't want to. 8 stalkers could team up and then never see each other again until they head back to the base to compare kill counts.
This would force people to team up in pvp which would possibly remove this argument from people who can't seem to understand that teams aren't always available. I played (or tried to play) in SC for several hours last night without being able to find a team, until I found a friendly scrapper. That evened out the odds a little but since we were two scrappers who never worked together before we were still just dog meat when facing a well-tuned corruptor/stalker duo. This isn't a unique event: whenever I go to SC it will take a couple of hours for me to find a team. I don't know why but my guess is that there aren't that many people around when I'm playing, or their teams are already full, or they just want to play with people they know. In any case it's not uncommon for me to be forced to play solo if I want to play at all.
Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
Malrathad wrote:
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I've never seen any real proof that Snipes DO have a second RANGE check, but they might.
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I'll second that -- I've sniped a LOT of stuff that was running far away and gotten hits on them well beyond the limits of targetability. I would be startled to learn that there's a *second* range check. Line-of-sight check, of course.
Sailboat
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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Do you know where it would be imposslbe to use? 1v1...but wait!!! PvP isn't so supposed to be about 1v1 is it? So why is Castle trying to protect 1v1 only for Stalkers? This is the real impact of a dual range check. It kills AS for repeated use in 1v1 battles when someone knows a stalker is present.
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Oh, if a Stalker misses with AS, Hide drops. What happens when a Stalker's hide drops? Why don't we start simple, and walk through the argument here.
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They run away..
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Only the ones that want a no risk, 1-shot kill will run away. The others know that they have (1) Scrapper's defense, (2) Scrapper's status-effect resistance, (3) 90% of Blaster's damage, (4) Placate so you can't fight back, (5) Almost on-demand critical
If a Stalker runs-away when AS misses or fails to one-shot you, they are only playing to gank, in my opinion.
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Do you know where it would be imposslbe to use? 1v1...but wait!!! PvP isn't so supposed to be about 1v1 is it? So why is Castle trying to protect 1v1 only for Stalkers? This is the real impact of a dual range check. It kills AS for repeated use in 1v1 battles when someone knows a stalker is present.
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Oh, if a Stalker misses with AS, Hide drops. What happens when a Stalker's hide drops? Why don't we start simple, and walk through the argument here.
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They run away..
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Only the ones that want a no risk, 1-shot kill will run away. The others know that they have (1) Scrapper's defense, (2) Scrapper's status-effect resistance, (3) 90% of Blaster's damage, (4) Placate so you can't fight back, (5) Almost on-demand critical
If a Stalker runs-away when AS misses or fails to one-shot you, they are only playing to gank, in my opinion.
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Or there are so many heroes around that he/she/it has no choice...
Well, they have two choices:
1. Die
2. Run
"Through Avarice evil smiles; through insanity it sings"
Forum Troll Rule #1: Anyone who disagrees with my point of view is either a fanboy or an idiot.
I'm a proud carebear.
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. As it is its the least used attack for most Stalkers.
[/ QUOTE ] That's just ridiculous. It is the MOST used attack in PvP. The first thing ANY stalker tries do is AS someone. I'm /SR...teamed, I see exactly what happens.
Sorry...you've lost all credibility.
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if you limit your stalker and so did your teamate to AS mainly im sry but you just didnt know how to play that AT
theres more in a stalker than just AS, sure its a hell of a powerful tool, but most good stalkers will only use it to start fights when the oponnent is unaware/alone/not jumping like a monkey for an easy kill, one can say AS is quite situational in PvP yah
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This isn't the case for Ninja Blade - can't speak for other primaries, but NB relies heavily on AS due to (comparative to other Stalker primaries) lackluster damage overall.
EMs and Spines though? They have other toys besides AS.
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yah, i know, meant in general, hence why i believe NB deserves a nice buffing, at least another strong attack before lvl 26 =/