Folks are just gunning to nerf AS altogether. Next will be hide - then stealth. Snipes don't get interrupted with AoE damage simply because you don't have to be close to fire it off. I don't see why there needs to be such a stricture that already has the limitations of snipe in addition to the need to be close enough to hit.
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Since AS is practically a melee snipe, shouldn't it follow the rules for snipe attacks and have it's range and line of sight checked twice? Once when the attack is initiated and once when it is resolved. Not like now, when people can start up AS and kill someone 100 feet away because the target moved.
If not, can someone tell me how to interrupt a stalker running Elude or similar powers? It's impossible to hit them even if I can see them perfectly fine.
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This has been brought up a couple times internally. The problem with making AS check Range twice is that it would be virtually impossible to land in PvP. It would also make it unique in that all other melee powers only check range once, so even if your target is running, you will still land the attack, no matter how far away they get.
It DOES check line of sight twice, so if you constantly take routes which break LOS frequently, you can stop Assassin attacks.
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I think what most people hate is that AS can "land" even if you teleport out over 155yds.
Perhaps the second AS range check could be something like 30' for TPers being *gone* and yet people still in melee can't break AS lock just by moving two feet?
Still here, even after all this time!
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I don't see why there needs to be such a stricture that already has the limitations of snipe in addition to the need to be close enough to hit.
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Snipes also don't hit someone for 3/4 to 4/5 of their HPs or drop a toggle. Seems to me that AS still comes out ahead.
Yeah.. if you add a second range check to AS, you know what the next patch will bring? 10 second long travel power supression.
What makes more sense to me would be letting AS have a 7 yard range, making two LoS and range checks.. BUT!! the assassin doesn't have to remain still. They still can be interrupted by even a single point of damage.
However, I suspect this would be an unpopular change, as it would make skilled assassin's almost impossible to stop. It would make it tough for the newbie Stalkers, though.
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Since AS is practically a melee snipe, shouldn't it follow the rules for snipe attacks and have it's range and line of sight checked twice? Once when the attack is initiated and once when it is resolved. Not like now, when people can start up AS and kill someone 100 feet away because the target moved.
If not, can someone tell me how to interrupt a stalker running Elude or similar powers? It's impossible to hit them even if I can see them perfectly fine.
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This has been brought up a couple times internally. The problem with making AS check Range twice is that it would be virtually impossible to land in PvP. It would also make it unique in that all other melee powers only check range once, so even if your target is running, you will still land the attack, no matter how far away they get.
It DOES check line of sight twice, so if you constantly take routes which break LOS frequently, you can stop Assassin attacks.
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Actually, it wouldn't affect AS at all on people standing still (he/she is invisible). It would just stop AS where the Stalker guesses where you are going to pass by.
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Since AS is practically a melee snipe, shouldn't it follow the rules for snipe attacks and have it's range and line of sight checked twice? Once when the attack is initiated and once when it is resolved. Not like now, when people can start up AS and kill someone 100 feet away because the target moved.
If not, can someone tell me how to interrupt a stalker running Elude or similar powers? It's impossible to hit them even if I can see them perfectly fine.
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This has been brought up a couple times internally. The problem with making AS check Range twice is that it would be virtually impossible to land in PvP. It would also make it unique in that all other melee powers only check range once, so even if your target is running, you will still land the attack, no matter how far away they get.
It DOES check line of sight twice, so if you constantly take routes which break LOS frequently, you can stop Assassin attacks.
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Alright... why would it be virtually impossible to land in PvP? If you're going to hit a target with a power that takes off most of their HP in one shot, drops two toggles, and is 6/7 irresistible, shouldn't it be hard to pull off?
If the person you're about to assassinate knows you're there, and you're trying to use an ultimate attack that requires to target to be unaware of your presence, shouldn't they be able to escape unless you take actions to prevent it?
Many of the Stalker sets are given tools to prevent their victims from escaping. Stun, Cobra Strike, and impale come to mind. Why doesn't the Stalker have to use all the tricks available to him/her in order to earn the massive one-shot?
The Ballad of Iron Percy
It already IS hard to pull off. Have you tried it?
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I'm pretty certain this isn't the case. I've been hit behind buildings before now and I know for a fact that it doesn't do a range check like snipes do.
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After extensive testing on this, I can say with a high degree of certainty that it doesn't do a second range check, but does fail if LoS is broken.
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SG mates and I tested this out extensively as well, and the LoS check is broken as well.
We used this when testing:
[*]Go to the top of a building (we tried in Sirens) and stand relatively near the edge[*]Initiate AS on the target[*]Once AS is started, have the target run and leap off the side of the building and down toward the street
Once the player is over the side of the roof and falling toward the street, line of sight is broken yet the target is still hit. This is repeatable and we sent in bug reports about it. Response we've received individually have said there's an issue with the LoS check failing under certain conditions (seems like this is one of them).
Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper
Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."
So you can't hit a stalker running Elude? You probably can't hit a scrapper running elude either. A mob can't hit you if you are running elude. That's what elude is for. I'ts a super-defense power. Working as intended. That's its purpose.
Sa far as range checks, I have not noticed a snipe power fail to work just because the mob got out of range AFTER I activated the power. I have characters with Energy Snipe, Sniper Rifle, and Moonbeam (different characters). Many times I have activated the snipe as the mob is running away (but still in range) and have the snipe go off (and hit the mob) well after the mob is out of range. If LOS is lost, then the snipe fails to activate.
Melee attacks all work that way. You can activate the attack and even if the target runs away, when the attack goes off, you get the hit. AS is just an interruptable melee attack. Same rules apply.
I've seen hundreds of posts complaining about stalkers AS in pvp. Get over it. It's what they do. There are ways to avoid it/defend against it. Learn them. Use them.
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Many of the Stalker sets are given tools to prevent their victims from escaping. Stun, Cobra Strike, and impale come to mind. Why doesn't the Stalker have to use all the tricks available to him/her in order to earn the massive one-shot?
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Right.. however, AS is dependant that you are HIDDEN. Using any of these attacks drops your HIDDEN status, makes them aware of you, and they will either fight back -- keeping you out of HIDDEN status whenever you are hit -- or flat out run. Then, if you still think you can AS them, you have to PLACATE which restores your HIDDEN status for that ONE player, and you are STILL VISIBLE to the opponent.
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It would also make it unique in that all other melee powers only check range once, so even if your target is running, you will still land the attack, no matter how far away they get
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Here's a wacky idea: Why not give every uninterruptible melee attack 2 range checks in PvP? One done at the time the power is clicked(of course), and one done at the end of the power's animation. Then, compare the distance of the second check to the meleers initial point of activation.
Why? Right now my Super-speeding tank can stretch KO Blow's range to 80 feet in PvP(and in PvE, too, actually - though there's no reason to do it there). It's profoundly unfair that my initial melee attack(and any following unsupressed melee attacks I make) can get most of the benefits of a ranged power, yet my character was balanced around the risks of melee combat, with his melee-level defenses and mez protection.
Yes, server latency(in concert with the inertia of lightning-fast travel powers) is the root of the issue, but that's not exactly targettable directly.
Why not put a leash on melee powers in PvP? if the meleer travels more than 30 feet(or some other arbitrary, fair distance) between the activation of his power, and the power connecting - odds are it was a deliberate attempt to approximate the safety of a ranged attack. Isn't that an exploit worth fixing? Melee powers necessarily entail the risk of melee-retaliation for the duration of their activation time, but 'stretching' its range reduces that risk to a tenth of a second.
Note: this is not suggesting that the attack fail if the target of the attack leaves melee range - The meleer put himself at risk entering melee, and deserves to have his attack execute whether or not his opponent decided to run.
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I'm pretty certain this isn't the case. I've been hit behind buildings before now and I know for a fact that it doesn't do a range check like snipes do.
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After extensive testing on this, I can say with a high degree of certainty that it doesn't do a second range check, but does fail if LoS is broken.
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SG mates and I tested this out extensively as well, and the LoS check is broken as well.
We used this when testing:
[*]Go to the top of a building (we tried in Sirens) and stand relatively near the edge[*]Initiate AS on the target[*]Once AS is started, have the target run and leap off the side of the building and down toward the street
Once the player is over the side of the roof and falling toward the street, line of sight is broken yet the target is still hit. This is repeatable and we sent in bug reports about it. Response we've received individually have said there's an issue with the LoS check failing under certain conditions (seems like this is one of them).
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We didn't test by jumping off of buildings, only via "normal" movement techniques. I wonder what other situations the LoS check might fail under.... Thanks for the info.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
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The problem with making AS check Range twice is that it would be virtually impossible to land in PvP.
[/ QUOTE ] Come on Castle, that's an exaggeration. AS would work fine on people who were:
Held
Immobilized
Slowed - Caltops
Feared
Disoriented
Slept
Asleep at the switch
Engaging in Shadow Maul, Eagles Claw type animations
and a host of other situations. What it would do is force Stalkers to find dominators and corrupters to use those type of movement debuffers.
It would also put more value on powers like CAK, Impale, Focus, and other statusing powers in the stalker primaries. It would force stalkers to develop a more comprehensive set of tactics rather than Hide +AS + Placate + AS.
Forcing AS to check range twice is exactly what should be done.
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It would also make it unique in that all other melee powers only check range once
[/ QUOTE ] Ahem...if you want to give all other melee type of attacks 7/8's unresistable damage with a chance to knock off two toggles, then your position is valid. As it stands...AS already IS unique.
The whole point of the interrupt time of AS is that it isn't a quick strike. The fact that you dont' check range twice undermines that aspect. You essentially have an attack...that should require ideal conditions to use, that can be used in a split second. I, like many others, have been Super-Jumping non-stop, and still get AS'd as a stalker lands and initiates AS the second they land next to me. Bogus. As is not a normal attack. Please don't try to categorize it as such for convenience.
Honestly, I think eveyone but stalkers would be fine if you check range twice on normal attacks if it meant that AS could not longer hit you 3 blocks away.
Please, go smoke that crack pipe somewhere else. Doms and controllers already scream about how ineffective their holds are, you want to make Stalkers reliant on something that is considered largely ineffective by the AT that uses it? As for rooting animations, how many good PvP'ers whose sets have rooting animations don't have Whirlwind? AS is already the least used attack (other than Brawl) on my character in the PvP zones.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
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Please, go smoke that crack pipe somewhere else
[/ QUOTE ] Talk about smoking a crack pipe..
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Doms and controllers already scream about how ineffective their holds are
[/ QUOTE ] You're kind of brain dead aren't you? Do you know how my scrappers die in Siren's? Slows/holds from Dom's COrrupters...and then the opportune AS.
Corruptors/Doms are constantly holding blasters/defenders in PvP. They have some massive slows.
Yeah...i'm so supprised that yet another AT is screaming for more power. Proves nothing about how effective they really are. I constantly hear the defenders on my teams scream for us to kill the doms/corrupters. It also proves your delustional response is based on what others say and a complete lack of first hand knowlege about the truth.
I believe that for every great gain there should be a price. I would like to see a stalker extra vulnerable during the time they are trying to execute an AS. So what ever interupts them should hit them for critical. That way there would be some risk in assasin striking other then "oh they saw me I better run away and try again." Also we should note that a lot of the stalker sets are defensive based so being a stalker in zones where tanks and scraps dont have focused accuracy is a lot safer for them and i believe FA is a +percept too.
I am PL in RL.
Freedom- Magnet Man, Hott Sauce, Stand-Up Comic
As far as I can tell, the prerequisites for a Scrapper's Crit... is.. erm...
And for a Blaster's Crit is low hitpoints...
and for a Controller's Crit is the target under the effect of a Hold...
...The requirements for a Stalker's Crit is that they have to be HIDDEN.
During a full-on fight, how much of a Stalker's time is actually spent hidden? That is what the 600% accounts for. There is already enough strictures against the one high-damage power that comes early for the AT, LOS is fine the way it is.
Also Note: Stalker's have alot less hitpoints than Scrappers and Tankers. So comparatively, they ARE already taking more damage when lining up for an AS.
So, what AT's are you teamed with when you PvP? How are squishies stacking enough mezzes to get through your inherent and buffed mezzed protection, not to mention BF's? If you aren't teaming or not getting buffed by a support character on your team, then you really don't have the understanding of how high level PvP works.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
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I believe that for every great gain there should be a price. I would like to see a stalker extra vulnerable during the time they are trying to execute an AS. So what ever interupts them should hit them for critical. That way there would be some risk in assasin striking other then "oh they saw me I better run away and try again." Also we should note that a lot of the stalker sets are defensive based so being a stalker in zones where tanks and scraps dont have focused accuracy is a lot safer for them and i believe FA is a +percept too.
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A critical? Is that a joke? Do you know how much damage a tanker is capable of? Now, imagine a Scrapper or Blaster...
My Tanker can drop a stalker to less than half HP with KOB. I've had en EM Tanker nearly one shot me with ET... Adding a critical is just insane.
And to the people trying to dissuade the anti-stalkers in the thread: They don't care about balance. They don't care if your attack becomes impossible to pull off... They just want to your stalker to be removed from the threat list so that they don't have to worry about ANY villain AT anymore.
"Through Avarice evil smiles; through insanity it sings"
Forum Troll Rule #1: Anyone who disagrees with my point of view is either a fanboy or an idiot.
I'm a proud carebear.
That's true.. I've already heard folks whining about MMs being overpowered in PvP.
Wonderful assesment. I guess crack smoking is a stalker passtime.
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As far as I can tell, the prerequisites for a Scrapper's Crit... is.. erm...
[/ QUOTE ] is umm... a 5% chance of working. Really really reliable in PvP...absolutely have to have that as a scrapper to PvP. God...I couldn't survive without that 5%.
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And for a Blaster's Crit is low hitpoints...
[/ QUOTE ] Do you know how ow your HP's have to be to make Defiance work? Do know how low before Defiance really makes tremondous difference? Kind of hard to use Defiance when you're mezzed.
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and for a Controller's Crit is the target under the effect of a Hold...
[/ QUOTE ] Too bad break-frees are cheap as hell, stalkers and brutes have mez protection, a host of Crptr powers offer status protection, and Sleep, Hold, and Immobilizie can be obtained from power pools. Provided you live long enough to do any damage after you have them held.
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During a full-on fight, how much of a Stalker's time is actually spent hidden?
[/ QUOTE ] Another totally sophist arguement. Hidden only works for one attack. The amount of time is irrelevant to how valuble or useful being HIdden is. But leave it to a pro-stalker to put forth an irrelevant argument. You guys specialize in the non-sequitor
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As far as I can tell, the prerequisites for a Scrapper's Crit... is.. erm...
[/ QUOTE ] is umm... a 5% chance of working. Really really reliable in PvP...absolutely have to have that as a scrapper to PvP. God...I couldn't survive without that 5%.
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Sidenote. Back when arenas first opened I took my warshade into it and actually managed to get a Stygian Circle pulled off on a defeated PC. I got boss level health from it. So unless they have changed it in the meantime a Player is considered a boss.. which means its 15% for a scrapper crit. More if the attacking power gets a bonus to crit chance.
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So, what AT's are you teamed with when you PvP? How are squishies stacking enough mezzes to get through your inherent and buffed mezzed protection, not to mention BF's? If you aren't teaming or not getting buffed by a support character on your team, then you really don't have the understanding of how high level PvP works.
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Let me clue you in...
Infrigidate, Snow Storm, Tar Patch, Lingering Radiation....easily overcome any Slow resist in Quickness.
Once Slowed...you become stalker-bait. I can see them just fine when they come in to show me all their uber skillz. I just can't hit three of them fast enough, or reliably enough to stop from getting AS'd....then Scourge for teh win. And I have no problem with that.
And as for /regen scrappers...hahahaha. Brawl...and any single hold for the win.
Getting AS'd while in the course of super-jumping is bogus. Unequivocably.
Castle's rationalizeing isn't that it a range check twice is wrong..he attempts to falely categorize AS along with other normal melee attacks. He also claims it would be "virtually impossible" to pull off in PvP. I'm sorry, that's just false, and to maintain that, reveals a decidedly biased viewpoint on the issue.
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So unless they have changed it in the meantime a Player is considered a boss.. which means its 15% for a scrapper crit.
[/ QUOTE ] No. Players are NOT considered bosses, evidenced by the fact that a SINGLE hold still holds anyone without status protection...AND....my hero stats does not report 15% for crits in PvP.
No one stands around for long in PvP. For an Assassin Strike to ever, ever happen with this second range check, it would have to be something large, like an 80-100 yard range, which would pretty much negate the point, right?
No Assassin Striking people using travel powers? Are you serious? I don't think I ever take my travel power off in the PvP zones...
With the no one-shot change, this won't be much of a big deal. You're super-speeding straight down a road, coming right at me, I hit BU, and que up AS. By the time it lands, you're 100 yards away, and I have to start hopping that way. If you have any sense about you at all, you've already clicked some Respites, some self-healing, etc. It's not like you didn't have time.
Thanks for eight fun years, Paragon.