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Malrathad wrote:
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I've never seen any real proof that Snipes DO have a second RANGE check, but they might.
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I'll second that -- I've sniped a LOT of stuff that was running far away and gotten hits on them well beyond the limits of targetability. I would be startled to learn that there's a *second* range check. Line-of-sight check, of course.
Sailboat
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Snipe is interruptable only if the foe breaks line of sight (LOS), same as AS. When you click Snipe or AS, the foes has to be in range, in LOS, and at the end of the interruptable time the foe still has to be within LOS.
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Can we all agree now that the devs recycled the Snipe code for Assassin Strike, only with the starting range to be 5 feet?
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Do you know where it would be imposslbe to use? 1v1...but wait!!! PvP isn't so supposed to be about 1v1 is it? So why is Castle trying to protect 1v1 only for Stalkers? This is the real impact of a dual range check. It kills AS for repeated use in 1v1 battles when someone knows a stalker is present.
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Oh, if a Stalker misses with AS, Hide drops. What happens when a Stalker's hide drops? Why don't we start simple, and walk through the argument here.
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They run away..
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Only the ones that want a no risk, 1-shot kill will run away. The others know that they have (1) Scrapper's defense, (2) Scrapper's status-effect resistance, (3) 90% of Blaster's damage, (4) Placate so you can't fight back, (5) Almost on-demand critical
If a Stalker runs-away when AS misses or fails to one-shot you, they are only playing to gank, in my opinion.
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Or there are so many heroes around that he/she/it has no choice...
Well, they have two choices:
1. Die
2. Run
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Good point. If anyone is at risk they will run. A Stalker just has so many more tools at their disposal not to have to run.
If it is an all out brawl with many heroes and villains, the Stalker is not going to attract the attention of the entire hero group. If the Stalker is solo, then yes, he is at great risk of all the others. Though, last night, a Stalker 1-shot killed my Mind Controller in the middle of about 15 hero NPC's including a Boss (with spines spewing out in all directions every second or so) and several leuts. I died in 1-shot, the Villain managed to get away. That is a bug, and I bugged it.
Edit: I think about it now and it was just one lucky Ganker.
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If it is an all out brawl with many heroes and villains, the Stalker is not going to attract the attention of the entire hero group.
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You'd be surprised... We seem to be PC aggro magnets.
One other NB Stalker and I were engaged in a little bit of a duel(both of us AS'd the same controller and turned to attack each other). After the first couple of swings, 2 groups, one hero, one villain, stopped attacking each other and came after us.
We weren't even in that mass of players, but they turned and chased after us.
"Through Avarice evil smiles; through insanity it sings"
Forum Troll Rule #1: Anyone who disagrees with my point of view is either a fanboy or an idiot.
I'm a proud carebear.
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Do you know where it would be imposslbe to use? 1v1...but wait!!! PvP isn't so supposed to be about 1v1 is it? So why is Castle trying to protect 1v1 only for Stalkers? This is the real impact of a dual range check. It kills AS for repeated use in 1v1 battles when someone knows a stalker is present.
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Oh, if a Stalker misses with AS, Hide drops. What happens when a Stalker's hide drops? Why don't we start simple, and walk through the argument here.
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They run away..
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Only the ones that want a no risk, 1-shot kill will run away. The others know that they have (1) Scrapper's defense, (2) Scrapper's status-effect resistance, (3) 90% of Blaster's damage, (4) Placate so you can't fight back, (5) Almost on-demand critical
If a Stalker runs-away when AS misses or fails to one-shot you, they are only playing to gank, in my opinion.
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Your opinion is based on a totally biased, uninformed state of mind though. By example, in a number of posts, keep screaming about how Stalkers have Scrapper level defenses. We DO NOT have Scrapper level defenses, because of our lower health. All defenses DO is let you get more value out of the health you've all ready got. Less health = less value out of defenses, lower "overall survivability." It's really that simple; having the same PERCENTAGES doesn't equal the same overall in play defensive capability when health isn't identical. Further comments like "On demand criticals" and "Placate so they can't fight back," illustrate again your misrepresentation of the situation. Placate is AT BEST a pause button in terms of "making them unable to fight back," since it ends when you hit THEM; you can't just keep someone placated constantly, and you can't keep them placated WHILE beating on them. Further, Placate and your opening attack give you the only two criticals you're going to get "on demand," and good foes can even STOP you from getting the second one. I'd hardly call that "on demand criticals," I'd call it "about a maximum of 2 criticals, assuming a poorly built foe." What on earth is on demand about that?
A Blapper can 3 shot my Stalker WITHOUT Defiance coming into play. If I miss my Assassin Strike against a good Blapper, "staying to scrap" is a death sentence. No amount of you totally misrepresenting the situation will change that. The same is true of most Scrappers. The same is true of ANYONE grouped, which MOST people are; staying 3 on 1 after you missed your Assassin Strike isn't effective most of the time.
Why, then, are you so desparate to misrepresent the Stalker situation? It's not like they are going to get weakened based on commentary anyone such as a developer would obviously see as only telling part of the story, so it can only be to delude other people and stir up Stalker hate. Why do you feel that is a positive aim?
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If anyone is at risk they will run. A Stalker just has so many more tools at their disposal not to have to run.
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No, no they don't. That's what you don't bloody get, having never played a Stalker any substantial amount in PvP. A Stalker who doesn't feel they are at substantial risk isn't going to run. What makes YOU a better judge of what puts a Stalker at risk than the Stalker himself? I mean, if you REALLY believe all the things you're saying in this post, then yes, I can see why you'd think Stalkers wouldn't have run as often as they do, as your version of Stalkers are unhittable, constantly criticalling god beasts. Real Stalkers, on the other hand, live in a much different set of conditions than what you care to make them out to be in.
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If it is an all out brawl with many heroes and villains, the Stalker is not going to attract the attention of the entire hero group.
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You'd be surprised... We seem to be PC aggro magnets.
One other NB Stalker and I were engaged in a little bit of a duel(both of us AS'd the same controller and turned to attack each other). After the first couple of swings, 2 groups, one hero, one villain, stopped attacking each other and came after us.
We weren't even in that mass of players, but they turned and chased after us.
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Well, from what has happened to me in PVP with Stalkers, I am guilty of attacking every Stalker I can see, for no reason but because I hate how so many of them abuse their dev. given power. I stop attacking anything I am attacking and switch to them as long as I can see them. They brought it on themselves 
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Do you know where it would be imposslbe to use? 1v1...but wait!!! PvP isn't so supposed to be about 1v1 is it? So why is Castle trying to protect 1v1 only for Stalkers? This is the real impact of a dual range check. It kills AS for repeated use in 1v1 battles when someone knows a stalker is present.
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Oh, if a Stalker misses with AS, Hide drops. What happens when a Stalker's hide drops? Why don't we start simple, and walk through the argument here.
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They run away..
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Only the ones that want a no risk, 1-shot kill will run away. The others know that they have (1) Scrapper's defense, (2) Scrapper's status-effect resistance, (3) 90% of Blaster's damage, (4) Placate so you can't fight back, (5) Almost on-demand critical
If a Stalker runs-away when AS misses or fails to one-shot you, they are only playing to gank, in my opinion.
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Your opinion is based on a totally biased, uninformed state of mind though. By example, in a number of posts, keep screaming about how Stalkers have Scrapper level defenses. We DO NOT have Scrapper level defenses, because of our lower health. All defenses DO is let you get more value out of the health you've all ready got. Less health = less value out of defenses, lower "overall survivability." It's really that simple; having the same PERCENTAGES doesn't equal the same overall in play defensive capability when health isn't identical. Further comments like "On demand criticals" and "Placate so they can't fight back," illustrate again your misrepresentation of the situation. Placate is AT BEST a pause button in terms of "making them unable to fight back," since it ends when you hit THEM; you can't just keep someone placated constantly, and you can't keep them placated WHILE beating on them. Further, Placate and your opening attack give you the only two criticals you're going to get "on demand," and good foes can even STOP you from getting the second one. I'd hardly call that "on demand criticals," I'd call it "about a maximum of 2 criticals, assuming a poorly built foe." What on earth is on demand about that?
A Blapper can 3 shot my Stalker WITHOUT Defiance coming into play. If I miss my Assassin Strike against a good Blapper, "staying to scrap" is a death sentence. No amount of you totally misrepresenting the situation will change that. The same is true of most Scrappers. The same is true of ANYONE grouped, which MOST people are; staying 3 on 1 after you missed your Assassin Strike isn't effective most of the time.
Why, then, are you so desparate to misrepresent the Stalker situation? It's not like they are going to get weakened based on commentary anyone such as a developer would obviously see as only telling part of the story, so it can only be to delude other people and stir up Stalker hate. Why do you feel that is a positive aim?
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If anyone is at risk they will run. A Stalker just has so many more tools at their disposal not to have to run.
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No, no they don't. That's what you don't bloody get, having never played a Stalker any substantial amount in PvP. A Stalker who doesn't feel they are at substantial risk isn't going to run. What makes YOU a better judge of what puts a Stalker at risk than the Stalker himself? I mean, if you REALLY believe all the things you're saying in this post, then yes, I can see why you'd think Stalkers wouldn't have run as often as they do, as your version of Stalkers are unhittable, constantly criticalling god beasts. Real Stalkers, on the other hand, live in a much different set of conditions than what you care to make them out to be in.
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Well, my Super Reflex Scrapper can survive for long periods of time when health is in the red, so hit points is not that important. Placate is a powerful tool for escape or controlled critical. I wouldn't downplay the defenses or the Placate power so much, unless I was a Stalker, I guess.
Edit: the Blapper with Aim + Buildup will render Scrapper level defenses nil. The combination of those two stacked may need to be looked at. Yes, I have an Ice/Ice Blaster with Aim + Build Up. I just don't use them in PVP together. I prefer alternating them, so I can use them more.
The real problem is that it just isn't that hard to kill a solo squishy with any of the high damage AT's. Think about this, a decently build Spines/Regen Scrapper can run around any of the PvP solo and rack up kills againts enemy squishies. In fact, many/most scrapper builds can do the same thing in relative safety. A stealthy Blapper can do much the same thing, except that they will be more reliant on BF's than a Stalker. The problem is that most people who play squishies accept their degree of squishiness in PVE because they get to control the tempo of the battle, when they are hurt, they don't move forward until they have healed. This kind of approach and the limitations of the "AI" that mobs use has given people a false impression of how durable a squishy really is. In PvP, you don't control any of those factors and as a squishy you are the number one target of everyone on the battlefield.
As for forcing teaming, I think that is more an education issue. I certainly wouldn't mind if something were added to the warnings that says a team is strongly reccomended. I thought that one of the NPC's actually says something like this, but I don't remember for certain. In any case, the game does a poor job of preparing players for the change from the PvE environment to the PvP one. I don't really think that a forced teaming mechanic is always needed, do I really need a team when all I want to do is run missions or badge hunt? Creating teams made up of people who don't have the same goals won't really help, IMO.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
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3 Stalkers versus 2 Blasters and 1 Emp....Blasters win most of the time
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I disagree with that.
I also disagree to the post you reply to with the buildup AS hide and stealth...
Expend that to TP as travel power, Hide, Buildup, AS, Stealth, Phase Shift, 1or2 Insight, 2-3 Rage and Placate. (Obviously... the kicker for TP is TPfoe)
I've seen solo stalkers attack huge groups relentlessly and take out target one by one. I'm not discounting their skill in doing it... but there simply isnt much that can be done by that 3 man group you describe.
Now ad 2 tankers and a scrapper to that 3 man group to bring it to 6...
You'll get the same results. Meat paddles are not gonna prevent running away.
Not only is leadership a powerpool which is not very much used in PvE... It's less effective for certain ATs than others... the precise ATs that would benificiate the most of it are the rarest in PvP.
You left out the caveat, if both groups have roughly equal skill level. A good Stalker can pick at a poor group one by one. If you don't think a couple of Blappers and with a pocket Emp won't win most contests against 3 Stalkers of equal skill, you're fooling yourself.
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I also disagree to the post you reply to with the buildup AS hide and stealth...
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Sorry, I don't have any idea of what your talking about.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
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You left out the caveat, if both groups have roughly equal skill level. A good Stalker can pick at a poor group one by one. If you don't think a couple of Blappers and with a pocket Emp won't win most contests against 3 Stalkers of equal skill, you're fooling yourself.
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I also disagree to the post you reply to with the buildup AS hide and stealth...
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Sorry, I don't have any idea of what your talking about.
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So true. Emp casting clarity on two blaster fleas hopping around like mad? Nope, not gonna get an AS off on one of them. Blaster can kite the stalkers. 3 ranged criticals aren't gonna work, the emp just heals them up.
1 emp + 2 blasters >>> 3 stalkers. Unless of course the blaster/emp team is just made up of tards.
Saying that the you can't talk about the tools of the trade without talking about Placate basically...
Ok let's have that scenario...
2 skilled "blappers"
1 skilled defender
1 skilled stalker
personally with my stalker I would
1- Raise all defenses (I play an SR stalker)
2- (alternatively but not necessary)pop a couple of rage and insights
3- approach one of the "blappers"
4- buildup
5- activate AS
6- target the second "blapper" while AS is preparing to hit
7- chain AS with Placate to the second "blapper"...
8- chain phase shift to placate as AS hits...
9- hit TP straight up... (best defense as flight can't catch up and SS/SJ can't go there.)
What would the skilled trio do to defeat me?
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Saying that the you can't talk about the tools of the trade without talking about Placate basically...
Ok let's have that scenario...
2 skilled "blappers"
1 skilled defender
1 skilled stalker
personally with my stalker I would
1- Raise all defenses (I play an SR stalker)
2- (alternatively but not necessary)pop a couple of rage and insights
3- approach one of the "blappers"
4- buildup
5- activate AS
6- target the second "blapper" while AS is preparing to hit
7- chain AS with Placate to the second "blapper"...
8- chain phase shift to placate as AS hits...
9- hit TP straight up... (best defense as flight can't catch up and SS/SJ can't go there.)
What would the skilled trio do to defeat me?
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As was said, if the defender is an emp, they'd see you coming, hit BU+Aim, completely override any of your defenses and murder you in 2 seconds flat.
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Saying that the you can't talk about the tools of the trade without talking about Placate basically...
Ok let's have that scenario...
2 skilled "blappers"
1 skilled defender
1 skilled stalker
personally with my stalker I would
1- Raise all defenses (I play an SR stalker)
2- (alternatively but not necessary)pop a couple of rage and insights
3- approach one of the "blappers"
4- buildup
5- activate AS
6- target the second "blapper" while AS is preparing to hit
7- chain AS with Placate to the second "blapper"...
8- chain phase shift to placate as AS hits...
9- hit TP straight up... (best defense as flight can't catch up and SS/SJ can't go there.)
What would the skilled trio do to defeat me?
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As was said, if the defender is an emp, they'd see you coming, hit BU+Aim, completely override any of your defenses and murder you in 2 seconds flat.
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As well they should. It's three on one.
Take a team without the ability to stack their perception, however. Say...
One 'blapper,' one INV/SS Tanker, one Dark/Dark defender. Would you be able to pick them off in safety? Why or why not?
The Ballad of Iron Percy
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Saying that the you can't talk about the tools of the trade without talking about Placate basically...
Ok let's have that scenario...
2 skilled "blappers"
1 skilled defender
1 skilled stalker
personally with my stalker I would
1- Raise all defenses (I play an SR stalker)
2- (alternatively but not necessary)pop a couple of rage and insights
3- approach one of the "blappers"
4- buildup
5- activate AS
6- target the second "blapper" while AS is preparing to hit
7- chain AS with Placate to the second "blapper"...
8- chain phase shift to placate as AS hits...
9- hit TP straight up... (best defense as flight can't catch up and SS/SJ can't go there.)
What would the skilled trio do to defeat me?
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As was said, if the defender is an emp, they'd see you coming, hit BU+Aim, completely override any of your defenses and murder you in 2 seconds flat.
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As well they should. It's three on one.
Take a team without the ability to stack their perception, however. Say...
One 'blapper,' one INV/SS Tanker, one Dark/Dark defender. Would you be able to pick them off in safety? Why or why not?
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Thats a poorly made pvp team. Take your hero team and match them up against 1 sonic/dark corr, a Ninja/trick arrow Mastermind and a fire/fire dom. Who would win?
If that works, you aren't going for a "skilled" trio. Here is what happens on Freedom. The Emp buffs both Blappers and stacks 2 CM's on them, while in SI so you can't see him from as far away. The Blappers can now see you from 130 yards away. With Fortitude, Aim, and Buildup defense means very little since they will always have a high level of toHitBuffs and you are in danger of being two shotted trying to close on one of the Blappers. As for getting of an AS, thats frankly laughable against a skilled opponent. I don't have to even know you're there to prevent from being able to AS me.
We had a 4 person team in WB last night that was only Cor's (at some points a couple of other members were there on other AT's) for an hour and half. Of course any kind of large fight draws out the solo Stalkers, I was never AS'd and I don't believe we had anyone AS'd who wasn't held or immob'ed first, despite having swarms of Stalkers trying to play.
Edit: Perception numbers are based on combat in SC.
Edit2: Corrected Per range to include Base Perception.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
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We had a 4 person team in WB last night that was only Cor's (at some points a couple of other members were there on other AT's) for an hour and half. Of course any kind of large fight draws out the solo Stalkers, I was never AS'd and I don't believe we had anyone AS'd who wasn't held or immob'ed first, despite having swarms of Stalkers trying to play.
Edit: Perception numbers are based on combat in SC.
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WhirwindX4? Stacked Tactics? What is the secret? Or, Radiation Infection 
So... why not use stealth with hide and TP in from above?
You can TP from way more than 75 yards...
And Stealth with Hide gets you to your stealth cap...
Also... Aim isnt a good defense for stealth...
it's a 10 seconds glimpse.
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Saying that the you can't talk about the tools of the trade without talking about Placate basically...
Ok let's have that scenario...
2 skilled "blappers"
1 skilled defender
1 skilled stalker
personally with my stalker I would
1- Raise all defenses (I play an SR stalker)
2- (alternatively but not necessary)pop a couple of rage and insights
3- approach one of the "blappers"
4- buildup
5- activate AS
6- target the second "blapper" while AS is preparing to hit
7- chain AS with Placate to the second "blapper"...
8- chain phase shift to placate as AS hits...
9- hit TP straight up... (best defense as flight can't catch up and SS/SJ can't go there.)
What would the skilled trio do to defeat me?
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As was said, if the defender is an emp, they'd see you coming, hit BU+Aim, completely override any of your defenses and murder you in 2 seconds flat.
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As well they should. It's three on one.
Take a team without the ability to stack their perception, however. Say...
One 'blapper,' one INV/SS Tanker, one Dark/Dark defender. Would you be able to pick them off in safety? Why or why not?
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Thats a poorly made pvp team. Take your hero team and match them up against 1 sonic/dark corr, a Ninja/trick arrow Mastermind and a fire/fire dom. Who would win?
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So, some characters just won't ever be effective in PvP?
*stares at his INV/SS Tank, his Fire/Fire Dom, and his Warshade*
Still, a Stalker would be able to slaughter them in relative safety, no?
(If it's three on one, I would hope that the Sonic/Dark Corr, the Ninja/TA MM, and the Fire/Fire dom would win against my INV/SS Tank.)
Edit: Replaced the word 'builds' with 'characters.'
The Ballad of Iron Percy
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So... why not use stealth with hide and TP in from above?
You can TP for more than 75 yards...
And Stealth with Hide gets you to your stealth cap...
Also... Aim isnt a good defense for stealth...
it's a 10 seconds glimpse.
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Aim provides zero perception. It provides increased accuracy and damage (accuracy is not perception). Yellow inspirations provide both, so it confuses some people to think accuracy is also perception.
Ah... thx for the info 
... not a blaster player.
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So... why not use stealth with hide and TP in from above?
You can TP from way more than 75 yards...
And Stealth with Hide gets you to your stealth cap...
Also... Aim isnt a good defense for stealth...
it's a 10 seconds glimpse.
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Your data is way off. First, Hide+Stealth does _not_ take you to the Stealth cap, it takes you to -890 PER, the cap in SC for Stalkers is -1007. CM stacks with itself with a per bonus of +390 for each instance. (note I actually made a mistake in my intial math by not including Base Perception.)
Hide+Stealth = -890 Per
x2 CM = +780
Base Per = 500
The Blappers will have a total +PER of 1280. The Stalker will have a -PER of 890. That means that the Stalker will be visible to the Blappers from 390 feet away (130 yards).
Aim actually provides no +PER benefit, instead its benefit is to be able to cut through your defenses.
So in other words, you will be seen from far outside of TP range.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
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We had a 4 person team in WB last night that was only Cor's (at some points a couple of other members were there on other AT's) for an hour and half. Of course any kind of large fight draws out the solo Stalkers, I was never AS'd and I don't believe we had anyone AS'd who wasn't held or immob'ed first, despite having swarms of Stalkers trying to play.
Edit: Perception numbers are based on combat in SC.
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WhirwindX4? Stacked Tactics? What is the secret? Or, Radiation Infection
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Movement. If you have long, 4 second or higher rooting animations, you may have to use WW, otherwise use your rooting animations while in a jump, by the time your animation is done you bound back off. We also usually have one person running an autohit aura, that can be used as a shelter and we rebuff there or drop a target based AoE to buff in.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
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We had a 4 person team in WB last night that was only Cor's (at some points a couple of other members were there on other AT's) for an hour and half. Of course any kind of large fight draws out the solo Stalkers, I was never AS'd and I don't believe we had anyone AS'd who wasn't held or immob'ed first, despite having swarms of Stalkers trying to play.
Edit: Perception numbers are based on combat in SC.
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WhirwindX4? Stacked Tactics? What is the secret? Or, Radiation Infection
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Movement. If you have long, 4 second or higher rooting animations, you may have to use WW, otherwise use your rooting animations while in a jump, by the time your animation is done you bound back off. We also usually have one person running an autohit aura, that can be used as a shelter and we rebuff there or drop a target based AoE to buff in.
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Movement without breaking LOS is still a gamble, to a Stalker that guesses right. Yeah, it is luck that a Stalker can get into a five feet radius area with a foe that is moving erratically, but it happens to me way, too often. So, I guess my unluckiness is superior to their luckiness 
Maybe you know more than I do...
this says that stealth cap at 30 is 1003.0 and the perception cap is 1013.0...
So even in your example... the range would be 1013.0-890=123... well within 2 slotted TP... no? (no not an expert so I could be wrong)
Hide+Stealth = ( -500 + -390) -890 Per
Ok question... does group invisibility stack with hide and stealth?(-575 per for a total of -1465, over the cap and over 1280 (500+780per))
Obviously there's the cap... and the difference between both is 10 feet...
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Malrathad wrote:
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I've never seen any real proof that Snipes DO have a second RANGE check, but they might.
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I'll second that -- I've sniped a LOT of stuff that was running far away and gotten hits on them well beyond the limits of targetability. I would be startled to learn that there's a *second* range check. Line-of-sight check, of course.
Sailboat
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Snipe is interruptable only if the foe breaks line of sight (LOS), same as AS. When you click Snipe or AS, the foes has to be in range, in LOS, and at the end of the interruptable time the foe still has to be within LOS.