its LoS IS checked twice....your misunderstanding what that means. As long as i can see you....your getting ASd...but if you can get some type of object like a building between me and you before it goes off....then your safe
Really? That's great, now I have a way to survive. Thanks!
Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
I'm pretty certain this isn't the case. I've been hit behind buildings before now and I know for a fact that it doesn't do a range check like snipes do.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty certain this isn't the case. I've been hit behind buildings before now and I know for a fact that it doesn't do a range check like snipes do.
[/ QUOTE ]
It does the LOS check once. You have to break LOS in under 3 seconds. Like the snipes... I've had a snipe follow me behind several buildings and over a couple of rooftops in Siren's...
"Through Avarice evil smiles; through insanity it sings"
Forum Troll Rule #1: Anyone who disagrees with my point of view is either a fanboy or an idiot.
I'm a proud carebear.
[ QUOTE ]
Since AS is practically a melee snipe, shouldn't it follow the rules for snipe attacks and have it's range and line of sight checked twice?
[/ QUOTE ]
A melee snipe and a ranged snipe are very different animals to balance, and thus it can't be assumed they should follow identical rules.
I've never seen any real proof that Snipes DO have a second RANGE check, but they might. Even if they do, I don't think Assassin Strike should, because it would just plain break the skill. It's all ready the ONLY challenging attack to execute in the game; making it virtually impossible to execute against anyone not held or immobilized would be a pointless gimp to the only Villain Archetype who keeps up with the damage output of Blasters and Scrappers (Of course, that's sort of why Heroes repeatedly suggest this).
Game balance comes before this sort of concern, and Assassin Strike plain wouldn't be balanced with a second range check, period.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty certain this isn't the case. I've been hit behind buildings before now and I know for a fact that it doesn't do a range check like snipes do.
[/ QUOTE ]
After extensive testing on this, I can say with a high degree of certainty that it doesn't do a second range check, but does fail if LoS is broken.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
After some thought, I disagree that the AS should have a range check both at the beginning and end of its animation. I think it should have just one. At the end.
2 checks would, I think, unfairly penalize Stalkers and make it too difficult to get an AS off at all. A single check at the beginning does not reward targets for having quick reflexes and getting the heck out of there. So, the solution is to put the check at the end...
You remove the ability for a stalker to take someone out who noticed the incoming AS and ran 100 yards away, but retain the ability for the stalker to hit moving targets _if_ he can predict his target's movements. And if He can predict his opponent's position 4 secs in the future, I see nothing wrong with granting him a successful AS. That is a mark of good stalking.
Win Win solution.
Unfortunately that's not possible since the AS won't activate unless the target is in range.
I'd be willing to make the AS interruption time shorter if there was a way to "sidestep" it by moving out of range. On the other hand this might make it impossible to have time to avoid it. I guess I'm just annoyed and frustrated by the game engine which allows stupid things like this...
Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
umm, what? If there is no range check at the beginnning then the animation could start from anywhere. If the range is then checked at the end the only way AS would land is if your target moved closer to you, ie into melee range. I don't think that is workable at all. The AS mechanics are fine as they exist IMO. Its not impossible to get one off, but against a skilled opponent they are few and far between. We had a great series of fights in SC the other night, with large numbers on both sides. The entire 2 hours we were in there I only got 2 AS's off on targets that weren't held in field with easily 30+ targets.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
I agree that AS should have two range checks. It's not realistic concept-wise to get hit with a devatating and interruptable melee attack when you're traveling across the zone. Movement should be a valid tactic for avoiding an Assassin Strike. If I get placated, I know what's coming, and my first instinct is to run away. In practice, this isn't the correct thing to do. You should try to break LoS within three seconds or interrupt the AS. Running away should actually work for such a powerful attack.
I do have a question, however: does Snipe, the closest analogue to AS, make a second range check?
The Ballad of Iron Percy
[ QUOTE ]
I agree that AS should have two range checks. It's not realistic concept-wise to get hit with a devatating and interruptable melee attack when you're traveling across the zone. Movement should be a valid tactic for avoiding an Assassin Strike. If I get placated, I know what's coming, and my first instinct is to run away. In practice, this isn't the correct thing to do. You should try to break LoS within three seconds or interrupt the AS. Running away should actually work for such a powerful attack.
I do have a question, however: does Snipe, the closest analogue to AS, make a second range check?
[/ QUOTE ]
Movement IS a valid tactic to avoid assassin strike, and it works quite well. If you get placated, don't stand there and wait, you should immediately begin to move around erratically until the effect wears off.
And no, snipe does not have a second range check, in my experience. I've sniped hellions that ran outside of normal snipe range. If they turn the corner or jump behind a fence, the snipe fails.
[ QUOTE ]
It's not realistic concept-wise to get hit with a devatating and interruptable melee attack when you're traveling across the zone.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm, then there are a laundry list of things that need to be changed. Why can I destroy my enemys with blasts of fire, but I can't open a normal office door? Why do ranged attacks still hit me if I zoom around the corner while the animation is going off? Why don't mobs in PvE ever call for help, even if their is a group right around the corner?
Keep in mind, this is a game, as such it has _many_ things that don't work conceptually due to technology constraints as well as balance concerns.
[ QUOTE ]
Movement should be a valid tactic for avoiding an Assassin Strike. If I get placated, I know what's coming, and my first instinct is to run away. In practice, this isn't the correct thing to do. You should try to break LoS within three seconds or interrupt the AS. Running away should actually work for such a powerful attack.
[/ QUOTE ]
Movement _is_ an effective counter, however not straightline run for the hills movement. If you need a concept, think about this, if you run away from an assasin in a straight line, you have just given him an excellent open shot at your unprotected back.
[ QUOTE ]
I do have a question, however: does Snipe, the closest analogue to AS, make a second range check?
[/ QUOTE ]
I would have to check to make sure, but I don't believe so. Both power seem to work the same way, except that AS can only start in melee range.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
Kahoru:
Correct, snipe has only the single range check. All but 1 snipe has a 2nd LoS check. The one that does not check again on firing is the psychic snipe - one of the advantages of the set.
Assasin Strike at the moment is a fairly standard snipe attack, but with melee range, no interrupt reduction, and a rather large critical effect.
Thorizdin:
Your description of the effects of my idea are essentially correct. The power would be one that a player could start anytime he wanted, for the usual endurance, etc. But it only actually goes off at the end of the interupt if the target is in range. Workable? Mechanically - probably - without access to the game engine, I couldn't tell you. They were able to support 2 LoS checks in Snipes... Playable? I actually like the idea. An Assasin strike is an attack that is carefully placed, with the opponent in the right place at the right time. It is not a normal melee attack because it is interruptible.
There exists a faction of players who think it is wrong that an interruptible melee attack should be effective even when the target buggered off during the interrupt period. They put forward the idea that the AS should have two range checks.
I disagree with them. I think that change would cripple AS in many circumstances - even when fighting foes who have no clue the Stalker is there and aren't taking measures to defend themselves. I don't _want_ stalker's best attack to be crippled - and I don't even play one.
But I sympathise with their plight a bit, as currently you have 2 options during the interrupt period. Move out of LoS, or hit the stalker. Stalkers have a high defense, especially against AoEs. A lot of character's panic buttons would be AoEs - don't have to target anyone. Every tanker attack is an AoE. Needless to say, many people think that trying to hit a hidden stalker during his interupt period is not much of an option. So that leaves running.
Many fights, for a variety of reasons, occur in the open - no way to get out of LoS in 4 seconds or less. They can open the distance pretty well, though. Getting hit anyway at range is not seen as a problem with snipes, because a snipe is by nature long ranged, does less damage, and snipers do not have the defense to avoid hits like a stalker does. Folks tend to charge a sniper. (Like the old saying... Run from a knife, charge a gun). By the way, I recognize that some defenders _do_ have adaquate defense to avoid getting their snipes interrupted by melee characters - but I don't hear many people fearing defender snipes.
These folks feel a logical disconnect with a melee attack having the same advantage, however. They feel that if they get away from the knife, they should get away from the huge crit. I can sort of see their point. They see the interrupt period as prep time for a devastating attack - not the attack itself. They lose their grounds for argument if the range check is at the end of the interrupt, however.
What is the difference between a player jumping over a fence 1 yard away to avoid an AS and a player Superspeeding 100 yards away to avoid an AS? In the mind of these folks - nothing. They see both as reasonable counters to the attack. Unfortunately, in the current mechanics, one is 100% effective, and the other is 100% ineffective.
_That_ is why they argue, and that is what I'm interested in fixing - because I hate inconsistency. The mechanics for the Assassin strike are consistent with a ranged attack, not a melee attack. I think, however, the proposed solution by these folks is too drastic. I instead favor a solution that still rewards a stalker for good stalking skills, but doesn't arbitrarily penalize those who feel the best defense against an interuptible melee attack is to not be there when the attack goes off.
Currently it is possible to do a sort of reverse-joust with AS on a moving target. This would still be possible, if more difficult. It would still be possible to AS those who move predictably or not at all.
Although I do not have quite the same approach to PvP as you do, Thorizdin, I do respect that you tend to put thought into your posts. I'd appreciate your comments, as I know I do not have any actual experience playing a stalker. I only have seen the situations described above from a third-party witness perspective. When I get AS'd its usually from total suprise while doing a lengthy animation, as my characters can either see the stalkers well, or not at all, depending on which character I'm playing, so my personal experiences are not particularly applicable.
I like well thought out discussions, without the selfish, the childish, the shrill, and the borderline insane. My goal is to help try to make PvP fun for all. I have way too many alts to be attached to any one AT or tactic, and have no particular loyalty any one approach. I want PvP to be interactive - a way for players to demonstrate their skill (or their lack thereof) and their tenacity (or their lack thereof). Stalkers are neat - and they walk a knife-edge between making the game for fun, and making the game less fun. Many other ATs walk a different, but similiar line. The difference is that stalkers right now are the ones eliciting complaints, because they are the ones that make their opponents feel the most helpless when encountered the first time.
So, uh, how is this different from the two checks at all?
To be honest, moving the range check from the beginning to the end will almost have the same impact as putting in two checks. The stalker can't move to position himself once the animation begins, so unless the target stays in melee range, the attack won't land. Why would the fact that you could start the AS while the target is out of "knife" range be any more logical than the current situation?
I play a Corruptor in WB on a regular basis, he has no particular build options to make him a hard target for AS. However, I have only been AS'ed a handful of times. PvP has, and should have, a learning curve. This means having to counter, by build, tactics, or teaming the things that you are likely to encounter. On Freedom, we really have a PvP savvy bunch on both sides. Getting an AS off on a target that isn't held is already quite difficult.
Does it make sense to change the game when a change in tactics will work? PvP develops and evolves over time. Builds that were once consider weak will get used in new ways and suddenly become FOTM. Sonic Resonance is a set that is in the process of doing just this. Look how many good teams have one or two, and ask why. Tactics that work for awhile get countered and fall into disuse. This entire process is the meta-game, as we progress through it I am afraid that Stalkers are going to need an upward adjustment rather than a downward one on AS.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
How is getting hit by an AS that started at melee range but did its damage at 200 yards away any different from getting hit by a Total Focus that started at melee range but did its damage from 200 yards away, as far as 'realism' is concerned?
Gothika (Grav/Kin) Marionette (Ill/Rad) Terra Firma (Earth/Storm) Alana Dale (Arch/Nrg)
Iceblink (Ice/Dark) Fantasia (Mind/Fire) Shadow Minx (Claws/Nin)
--Virtue
Total Focus doesn't have an interrupt time or x6 crit damage. The "interruptability" of the AS is supposed to provide a way to defend against the AS but in reality it doesn't since Stalkers have so much defense that the only way to hit them is by the lucky 5% to hit floor. At least that's how it usually works. When a stalker can't put up its defense powers to reach the cap, it runs away until Elude or MoG or whatever Ninjas get has recharged. Sound tactics but boring for everyone who's depending on those powers to drop in order to be able to defeat the Stalker.
The question might be whether Stalkers should have powers that make them practically impossible to hit, or if they should perhaps get something else in their defensive sets.
Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
[ QUOTE ]
Total Focus doesn't have an interrupt time or x6 crit damage. The "interruptability" of the AS is supposed to provide a way to defend against the AS but in reality it doesn't since Stalkers have so much defense that the only way to hit them is by the lucky 5% to hit floor. At least that's how it usually works. When a stalker can't put up its defense powers to reach the cap, it runs away until Elude or MoG or whatever Ninjas get has recharged. Sound tactics but boring for everyone who's depending on those powers to drop in order to be able to defeat the Stalker.
The question might be whether Stalkers should have powers that make them practically impossible to hit, or if they should perhaps get something else in their defensive sets.
[/ QUOTE ]
Great, so you're complaining how hard it is to hit stalkers with their tier 9 defense powers up. Sure there are the losers who are so afraid of dying that they only fight with their power up, but I don't see why we shouldn't get the tier 9 powers if scrappers can make themselves unkillable the same way. All it takes is a nice debuff like Radiation Infection to completely negate it. In any case, that only applies in Warburg for right now, and the level 50 zone will grant powers that can rip through elude, etc.
In fact, I see many problems in the level 50 zone. Focused accuracy will turn defense based sets to mush, along with the perception bonus. I also see blasters turning into killing machines, all of them only fighting when Force of Nature is back up.
[ QUOTE ]
How is getting hit by an AS that started at melee range but did its damage at 200 yards away any different from getting hit by a Total Focus that started at melee range but did its damage from 200 yards away, as far as 'realism' is concerned?
[/ QUOTE ]
Bingo.
I can TP over 100yrds away before a TF lands. Still getting nailed for the full damage though. Quick reflexes or not, I'm not rewarded for TP'ing out of there before I see the big attack land.
Everyone is playing in a click based game. For most powers that means, as long as you satisfy the initial range requirement, once you click that button, the power will execute and land (barring a miss from acc). There's no real world properties about anything there. People would do best to just ignore real life concepts, because thats just not the way the game works.
As for AS, it follows that same rule. Get in range, click button, land attack. HOWEVER, since it does unusually large amounts of damage, it pays for it by having several caveats attached to its activation. Those additional requirements being: not being interrupted, two LoS check (one beginning one at end), and having to be in hidden status.
Considering the way other powers work in this game, that seems pretty fair to me.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree that AS should have two range checks. It's not realistic concept-wise to get hit with a devatating and interruptable melee attack when you're traveling across the zone. Movement should be a valid tactic for avoiding an Assassin Strike. If I get placated, I know what's coming, and my first instinct is to run away. In practice, this isn't the correct thing to do. You should try to break LoS within three seconds or interrupt the AS. Running away should actually work for such a powerful attack.
I do have a question, however: does Snipe, the closest analogue to AS, make a second range check?
[/ QUOTE ]
Movement IS a valid tactic to avoid assassin strike, and it works quite well. If you get placated, don't stand there and wait, you should immediately begin to move around erratically until the effect wears off.
And no, snipe does not have a second range check, in my experience. I've sniped hellions that ran outside of normal snipe range. If they turn the corner or jump behind a fence, the snipe fails.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Movement _is_ an effective counter, however not straightline run for the hills movement. If you need a concept, think about this, if you run away from an assasin in a straight line, you have just given him an excellent open shot at your unprotected back.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, I've just given him an open shot at my back. He's not taking a shot, though. He's trying to hit me with his sword/claws/pom-poms. It's a melee attack that takes time to prepare and execute. That's what the Stalker is doing when he starts to squat. If I'm out of the effective range of the attack when he's done preparing for it, he shouldn't be able to pull it off. The Assassin Strike is allowed to be as effective as it is because it's supposed to take skill to set up and it's not supposed to be easy to pull off if your opponent knows it's coming.
I'm almost certain we'll disagree, though. I see it as a balance issue as well as a concept issue, so this is all a matter of my opinion.
Edit: Snipe is also allowed to be as powerful as it is because it takes time to prepare. If you're attacked, it'll be interrupted. It should also fail if the target leaves the range of the attack for the same reason. In reality, though, this wouldn't change much; Snipe has a long range.
The Ballad of Iron Percy
[ QUOTE ]
I'm almost certain we'll disagree, though. I see it as a balance issue as well as a concept issue, so this is all a matter of my opinion.
[/ QUOTE ]
From a hypothetical concept PoV, I actually agree. The problem is that all melee attacks work this way. Just like a ranged attack will go around corners to hit you, which is pretty funny if you take the time to watch the animation. Impale has a fairly slow animation to the target, and if you are trying to hit someone who is very good at movement the attack ends up following them like some sort of homing missle made of spines. What I am getting at is that there is no active dodging in this game. Once the attack begins (except interruptable ones) a "roll" is made. It doesn't matter what you do, once the "roll" indicates a hit, one will land, even it should be impossible for it to. Thats why you can jump up with a ranged attack toggled on target you can't get LoS on and have the attack go through. Logically, that attack should fail, since the game will show you shooting through a rail or a floor.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm almost certain we'll disagree, though. I see it as a balance issue as well as a concept issue, so this is all a matter of my opinion.
[/ QUOTE ]
From a hypothetical concept PoV, I actually agree. The problem is that all melee attacks work this way. Just like a ranged attack will go around corners to hit you, which is pretty funny if you take the time to watch the animation. Impale has a fairly slow animation to the target, and if you are trying to hit someone who is very good at movement the attack ends up following them like some sort of homing missle made of spines. What I am getting at is that there is no active dodging in this game. Once the attack begins (except interruptable ones) a "roll" is made. It doesn't matter what you do, once the "roll" indicates a hit, one will land, even it should be impossible for it to. Thats why you can jump up with a ranged attack toggled on target you can't get LoS on and have the attack go through. Logically, that attack should fail, since the game will show you shooting through a rail or a floor.
[/ QUOTE ]
Good point. From the standpoint of the game engine, however, as soon as you begin your attack animation, the attack has already been computed. The behind-the-scenes math has already been done; if you've hit, you've still got to go through the animation of hitting them before it connects. Your target is already damaged, he just doesn't know it yet.
With Snipe/AS, however, the computation hasn't taken place yet. Actions that you take have an effect on the success or failure of the attack. The attack itself doesn't take place until after the interruptible period, which is why it should check for range at the end. If it checked for range only at the end, though, Stalkers would be able to deplete their endurance bar by continually trying and failing to activate the power. That's just not fair.
Now that I think about it, though, the second range check should be a bit farther away. Perhaps double the distance of the first, approximately the distance of Knockout Blow from the Superstrength set (which is longer than the rest of the attacks). That way, stunned opponents wouldn't be able to stagger away in escape. They shouldn't be able to, since they're technically defenseless, and that's exactly the situation in which AS should succeed.
The Ballad of Iron Percy
[ QUOTE ]
Since AS is practically a melee snipe, shouldn't it follow the rules for snipe attacks and have it's range and line of sight checked twice? Once when the attack is initiated and once when it is resolved. Not like now, when people can start up AS and kill someone 100 feet away because the target moved.
If not, can someone tell me how to interrupt a stalker running Elude or similar powers? It's impossible to hit them even if I can see them perfectly fine.
[/ QUOTE ]
This has been brought up a couple times internally. The problem with making AS check Range twice is that it would be virtually impossible to land in PvP. It would also make it unique in that all other melee powers only check range once, so even if your target is running, you will still land the attack, no matter how far away they get.
It DOES check line of sight twice, so if you constantly take routes which break LOS frequently, you can stop Assassin attacks.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Since AS is practically a melee snipe, shouldn't it follow the rules for snipe attacks and have it's range and line of sight checked twice? Once when the attack is initiated and once when it is resolved. Not like now, when people can start up AS and kill someone 100 feet away because the target moved.
If not, can someone tell me how to interrupt a stalker running Elude or similar powers? It's impossible to hit them even if I can see them perfectly fine.
[/ QUOTE ]
This has been brought up a couple times internally. The problem with making AS check Range twice is that it would be virtually impossible to land in PvP. It would also make it unique in that all other melee powers only check range once, so even if your target is running, you will still land the attack, no matter how far away they get.
It DOES check line of sight twice, so if you constantly take routes which break LOS frequently, you can stop Assassin attacks.
[/ QUOTE ]
Something that might be interesting to try would be to have a relaxed range check at the end. For instance, 5 feet at the start and 15 feet at the end. Essentially the design would be that if you are moving at travel power speeds you can't be ASed, but if you are moving at sprint speeds you can be. I don't know how that would work out in practice but it might be worth some internal testing.
Since AS is practically a melee snipe, shouldn't it follow the rules for snipe attacks and have it's range and line of sight checked twice? Once when the attack is initiated and once when it is resolved. Not like now, when people can start up AS and kill someone 100 feet away because the target moved.
If not, can someone tell me how to interrupt a stalker running Elude or similar powers? It's impossible to hit them even if I can see them perfectly fine.
Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522