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And to the people trying to dissuade the anti-stalkers in the thread: They don't care about balance. They don't care if your attack becomes impossible to pull off... They just want to your stalker to be removed from the threat list so that they don't have to worry about ANY villain AT anymore.
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QFT. Nothing more needs to be said.
It sounds like you're being assaulted not only by a corruptor, but by 3 stalkers. And it sounds like you're solo. How does that prove anything? A scrapper loses to 3+ stalkers and 1+ corruptor/dominator? I would hope so.
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The problem with making AS check Range twice is that it would be virtually impossible to land in PvP
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Castle, how can you say that? There are PLENTY of ppl who dont have stacked perception and/or long animation times on powers. Not only that, but in a chaotic environment like pvp zones, their's enough ppl who fight toe to toe with opponent without moving for a while. Your saying that not enough of a window for a power that bypasses all defense and nearly kills you in one shot? C'mon.
Yes, AS wouldnt be as prevailent as it is now, but seriously ppl who CAN see a stalker approach shouldnt be AS as often.
You're uninformed...
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That 5% for a Scrapper doesn't really seem as real-world,
[/ QUOTE ] Claws, Katana, Broadsword, MA...have ONE attack that has a 15% chance to crit. Stalkers who have the same attacks have the SAME increased chance to crit. Since PvP is all about BURST damage...you're going to see the big hitting crit attacks more than others. The 5% crit chance is the scrapper inherent. It is NOT additive.
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You can definitely count on doing more damage with a Scrapper/Brute in the long run than you could with 3 Acc/3 Dam Stalker.
[/ QUOTE ] Would be kind of ridiculous if Stalkers had both higher burst damage AND higher sustained DPS wouldn't it? Stalkers are about BURST damage. That's what matters in PvP...this thread is about PvP..not PvE.
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As for Defiance, If that Blaster just got AS'ed they are sure as heck going to be able to turn right around and smash the Stalker with quite a bit more damage than the Stalker could muster in response.
[/ QUOTE ] There are few blaster secondaries that can turn an AS into lemon-aide. Energy Manipulation is just one such Secondary. Nevertheless...you have to have the attack ready. You have to survive the AS...which assumes the stalker has not waited until you were already hit. You have to be expecting the stalker attack, or you many not get a chance to hit before the stalkers follow up kills you. You have to get the attack off before the stalker hits you with Placate.
The number of blasters that turn the tide on being AS'd...is exceedingly small. It is common...I repeat common to be standing in Siren's with a team of heroes...and periodically see the blaster get two shot before the team can react.
Ask yourself, if you're life depending on the average stalker winning the 1v1 or the average blaster....where would you put your money?
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Break Frees work both ways, though I see less Villains using them as one has to leave the zone to buy them, and folks don't want to lose their bounty just for purple pills.
[/ QUOTE ] My post is about Castle claiming that range check on the tail end of AS would make it "virtually impossible" for AS to be used in PvP. Slows...which are quite prevelant on the villain side, would allow many many AS's to work as normal. Break Frees do not counter Slow.
Even if they counter holds...a hold STILL detoggles you. That means you have to:
1) Hit the break free
2) Swtich back on your travel power
3) get more than 20' feet from your target before AS completes.
Any stalker who is teaming with doms/corrupters will have opportunities to AS someone who is held and pops a break free. They'll have far more just from the Slows...but all the squishies will be pretty easy to hold at some point in a battle.
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As far as the usefulness of hide, AoEs break it, +Per breaks it, CM breaks it, Terrorize breaks it, Leadership, etc.
[/ QUOTE ] Now your cluelessness exerts itself:
1) Stalkers currently have a massive defensive bonus to AoE attacks.
2) Terroize does not break Hide.
3) +Perception does not break Hide.
4) CM does not break hide
5) There is no Leadership power. There is Tactics...a tier 2 Leadership Pool power that grants +perception. See #3.
Being able to SEE a stalker does not break Hide. It just means you can attack them, provided you haven't been placated. If they hit you while in the Hidden state...they still crit...giving AS 7/8'ths unresistable damage and knocking off two toggles.
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Brute, actually.
[/ QUOTE ] I said you were "pro-stalker," I didn't say you were a stalker.
EDIT:
And once again, we have the disanalogies that infest the pro-stalker arguments:
The discussion about Break Frees was to show that Containment is unreliable in PvP. It is an entirely separate issue whether Break Frees eliminate the opportunity to AS someone who's been held. Perhaps a little teamwork between the Stalker and the Dom to identify who's going to be held???? God forbid stalkers should have to team.
(General reply, not to anyone in specific)
If you are one of those foaming-at-the-mouth Anti-Stalkers, please post in your Signature whether you have actually PvP'd with a Stalker.
If you haven't, I'll know to simply disregard your invalid opinion on the matter (Because you're only giving your experience from the receiving end - you have no idea what it took to set that Assassin Strike up).
Thanks for eight fun years, Paragon.
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Please, go smoke that crack pipe somewhere else. Doms and controllers already scream about how ineffective their holds are, you want to make Stalkers reliant on something that is considered largely ineffective by the AT that uses it? As for rooting animations, how many good PvP'ers whose sets have rooting animations don't have Whirlwind? AS is already the least used attack (other than Brawl) on my character in the PvP zones.
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Ah, so we have to have Whirlwind, Assault and Tactics on every single Controller, Defender, Stalker, and Corrupter to play in PVP, since they all have attacks that have activation times. Oh, but wait, a Stalker only needs Hide + Stealth to cover his squishiness. Bummer... now I have to go back and redo all my PVE to PVP builds I had planned so that Whirlwind will let me cast Radiation Infection, Confuse, etc in PVP while moving..... 
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So unless they have changed it in the meantime a Player is considered a boss.. which means its 15% for a scrapper crit.
[/ QUOTE ] No. Players are NOT considered bosses, evidenced by the fact that a SINGLE hold still holds anyone without status protection...AND....my hero stats does not report 15% for crits in PvP.
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Maybe I should have been a little more specific..
PCs are considered bosses for power effects like criticals and stygian circle heals.
I will have to see if I can't talk one of my friends into meeting me in a PvP zone so I can check the stygian circle thing there.
Update: Went to Sirens with my warshade and got a friendly stalker to sit still for me..
Out in pve a minion gives me 214hps while a boss gave me 428. The stalker gave me 291.. so I guess it did get changed.
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So unless they have changed it in the meantime a Player is considered a boss.. which means its 15% for a scrapper crit.
[/ QUOTE ] No. Players are NOT considered bosses, evidenced by the fact that a SINGLE hold still holds anyone without status protection...AND....my hero stats does not report 15% for crits in PvP.
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Maybe I should have been a little more specific..
PCs are considered bosses for power effects like criticals and stygian circle heals.
I will have to see if I can't talk one of my friends into meeting me in a PvP zone so I can check the stygian circle thing there.
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[censored], hop into Siren's and wait for my Stalker to die(shouldn't take long ), I'd let you test that [censored] on me...
"Through Avarice evil smiles; through insanity it sings"
Forum Troll Rule #1: Anyone who disagrees with my point of view is either a fanboy or an idiot.
I'm a proud carebear.
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(General reply, not to anyone in specific)
If you are one of those foaming-at-the-mouth Anti-Stalkers, please post in your Signature whether you have actually PvP'd with a Stalker.
If you haven't, I'll know to simply disregard your invalid opinion on the matter (Because you're only giving your experience from the receiving end - you have no idea what it took to set that Assassin Strike up).
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I get AS'd multiple times daily
I got AS'd last night, because I cast a RAdiation Infection on a NPC. Yes I was moving around before I cast it. Yes, I was moving after I cast it. No, I don't have Whirlwind. So, I had to wait out the Radiation Infection activation time (3 seconds) and got 1-shot killed.....
Edit: Just ask Angry Cheerleader, Stalker
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(General reply, not to anyone in specific)
If you are one of those foaming-at-the-mouth Anti-Stalkers, please post in your Signature whether you have actually PvP'd with a Stalker.
If you haven't, I'll know to simply disregard your invalid opinion on the matter (Because you're only giving your experience from the receiving end - you have no idea what it took to set that Assassin Strike up).
[/ QUOTE ]
I get AS'd multiple times daily
I got AS'd last night, because I cast a RAdiation Infection on a NPC. Yes I was moving around before I cast it. Yes, I was moving after I cast it. No, I don't have Whirlwind. So, I had to wait out the Radiation Infection activation time and got 1-shot killed.....
Edit: Just ask Angry Cheerleader, Stalker
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Ever wonder how long she followed you before pulling that off?
"Through Avarice evil smiles; through insanity it sings"
Forum Troll Rule #1: Anyone who disagrees with my point of view is either a fanboy or an idiot.
I'm a proud carebear.
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(General reply, not to anyone in specific)
If you are one of those foaming-at-the-mouth Anti-Stalkers, please post in your Signature whether you have actually PvP'd with a Stalker.
If you haven't, I'll know to simply disregard your invalid opinion on the matter (Because you're only giving your experience from the receiving end - you have no idea what it took to set that Assassin Strike up).
[/ QUOTE ]
I get AS'd multiple times daily
I got AS'd last night, because I cast a RAdiation Infection on a NPC. Yes I was moving around before I cast it. Yes, I was moving after I cast it. No, I don't have Whirlwind. So, I had to wait out the Radiation Infection activation time and got 1-shot killed.....
Edit: Just ask Angry Cheerleader, Stalker
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Ever wonder how long she followed you before pulling that off?
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It does not matter. It was late and I was the only Controller/Defender left in the zone. She came looking for me.... She screwed up on the first attempt because I was inside the Radiation Infection fighting npcs. She got slowed and tryed to run away. She ran into some NPC heros and got killed. She wanted blood, and I knew she would be back. I knew she was there. I could not prevent it, even by continously moving. Now, I have to put Whirlwind in every PVP build....
Waaah! Tanks are good at taking damage! Blasters have good ranged damage! Brutes do more damage if you hit them! Stalkers can assassinate something! *maniacal sobbing* I can't stand it when things work the way they should!
Besides, there are so many things you can do to prevent a stalker from doing what it was designed to do. Where are the pool powers to prevent myself from getting tp's onto a mine patch? Where are the pool powers that stop chilling embrace from auto-interrupting my signature power? Stalkers have problems too. For every AS that hits, I'd bet that there were 5 tries before that didn't work out they way they planned.
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Now, I have to put Whirlwind in every PVP build....
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WW wont save you... The Range on that thing is actually smaller than normal melee range.
"Through Avarice evil smiles; through insanity it sings"
Forum Troll Rule #1: Anyone who disagrees with my point of view is either a fanboy or an idiot.
I'm a proud carebear.
Actually, it might because it removes the rooting effect. So they can toss RI 'on the run'.
I didn't say anything of the sort and I resent you trying to cast my post that way. Mieux posted that AS would be effective via teaming with Doms, I pointed out that Doms are the most ineffective PvP AT specifically because of their inability to effectively mez and that chaining Stalker effectiveness to Doms is rather ridiculous. BTW, there are multiple ways of getting aroud rooting animations, WW is just one of them.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
What you are essentially saying, is that in a 1-on-1 fight, a Stalker should bring a Dom.
That is about all I'm able to glean from your post.
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What you are essentially saying, is that in a 1-on-1 fight, a Stalker should bring a Dom.
That is about all I'm able to glean from your post.
[/ QUOTE ]I'm not surpirsed.
How about a Stalker should have to rely on more than Hide + BU +AS +Placate + AS for the easy win against a single target that knows the stalker is there?
Constant motion should be proof against AS. What a crime to require a stalker to have to actually slot some of his/her other attacks to win 1v1 fights?
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Where are the pool powers to prevent myself from getting tp's onto a mine patch?
[/ QUOTE ] They are in the same place as the ones that prevent me from getting TP'd into a MM's Tar Patch and army of darkness...m'kay?
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Where are the pool powers that stop chilling embrace from auto-interrupting my signature power?
[/ QUOTE ] Where is the power pool that actually let's a Tanker USE their inherent power? WHo says you have the right to AS anyone, anytime, anyplace you choose? AS is a specialized attack.
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For every AS that hits, I'd bet that there were 5 tries before that didn't work out they way they planned.
[/ QUOTE ] ZOMG!!!! You had to try five whole times before it worked?!??! That's just unacceptable. If only you had a bunch of other attacks to fall back on????
God forbid you should have to seek out the buffs and debuffs of a teammate to give you an advantage.
... what?
You can't AS -> placate -> AS. Or: you can, but only if you're standing around for quite a long time after the first AS.
Stalkers slot quite a few of their attacks; even NB stalkers don't rely ONLY on AS (they just lack the power to follow up an AS other sets get).
If you think a stalker can get by just on AS, without slotting their other attacks, then you are showing a profound lack of understanding of the stalker playstyle, and, as others have suggested, you should try playing one yourself. I won't tell you PVPing with a stalker is HARD, but then it doesn't seem particularly hard to pvp with a properly-built blaster or scrapper.
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Since AS is practically a melee snipe, shouldn't it follow the rules for snipe attacks and have it's range and line of sight checked twice? Once when the attack is initiated and once when it is resolved. Not like now, when people can start up AS and kill someone 100 feet away because the target moved.
If not, can someone tell me how to interrupt a stalker running Elude or similar powers? It's impossible to hit them even if I can see them perfectly fine.
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This has been brought up a couple times internally. The problem with making AS check Range twice is that it would be virtually impossible to land in PvP. It would also make it unique in that all other melee powers only check range once, so even if your target is running, you will still land the attack, no matter how far away they get.
It DOES check line of sight twice, so if you constantly take routes which break LOS frequently, you can stop Assassin attacks.
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Can we get snipe to only check range once, then? I don't care which one you keep, but as is it's quite annoying. The same logic applies -- other range attacks only check range once. Keep the first one, and it would actually be useful for nailing fleeing targets. Keep the second, and you could gamble and set up a snipe on a target you think is going to approach you, and do so before they're close enough to close and interrupt you.
Again... what? How can you equate being TPd into a mine field and being TPd into a tar patch by a MM? One allows you a chance to fight back. The other doesn't, most of the time.
Besides... if you were a scrapper, you're telling me you couldn't get out of the tar patch before they killed you? Or if you were a blaster you weren't able to come right back and 2-shot the MM?
And if we're speaking of buffs, where are -your- teammates? Where's a kineticist to give you a speed boost, so you could entirely ignore that tar patch? Or all those slow effects you suggest are SO very effective at getting you ASd in pvp?
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You can't AS -> placate -> AS.
[/ QUOTE ] lol....umm...yes you can. Placate allows Hide to re-engage and you just wait for AS to recharge. Unless you are fightng /Regen or someone with Dull Pain...they aren't going to regain those lost HP's faster than AS recharges. And if you are going to argue they will be popping greens...then I'll say you can use Rages so you one-shot them...or in the new world order...easily kill them with a follow up attack a few seconds later....which will crit because of Placate.
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If you think a stalker can get by just on AS, without slotting their other attacks, then you are showing a profound lack of understanding of the stalker playstyle
[/ QUOTE ] I see the stalker playstyle..first hand. I have a stalker. I took my stalker in to BB and lvl 15 and was getting killed repeated cheese kills with DO's in just two attacks, one of which is AS. Didn't even have placate or status protection. Blaster/Scrappers/Defenders/Controllers...dog meat without a team.
And getting back to playstyle, stalkers rarely stick it out to scrap unless they think than can kill you in two or three attacks. They only other time I see them scrap in PvP is when the target is helpless.
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Mieux's words
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That's exactly my point. Everyone has problems. It's not Stalkers vs The World, allright? There's no need to be a jerk about AT's doing their job, and the people who do it well.
-edited to remove unnecessarily rude word-
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Again... what? How can you equate being TPd into a mine field and being TPd into a tar patch by a MM? One allows you a chance to fight back. The other doesn't, most of the time.
Besides... if you were a scrapper, you're telling me you couldn't get out of the tar patch before they killed you? Or if you were a blaster you weren't able to come right back and 2-shot the MM?
And if we're speaking of buffs, where are -your- teammates? Where's a kineticist to give you a speed boost, so you could entirely ignore that tar patch? Or all those slow effects you suggest are SO very effective at getting you ASd in pvp?
[/ QUOTE ]And here come the non-squitors.
What next? Going to make some assertion about +2 bosses being relevant to this discussion?
You're talking about TP being unresisted. It's unresisted for BOTH sides. Sorry, the fact that ONE particular build..and only ONE particular build can use it to huge advantage is irrelevant to a discussion about an entire AT.
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Or if you were a blaster you weren't able to come right back and 2-shot the MM?
[/ QUOTE ] Well that logic should apply to your stalker too shouldn't it? Except that this whole tangent is irrelevant to the point.
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And if we're speaking of buffs, where are -your- teammates?
[/ QUOTE ] So frickin typical. What is with you guys loving to just change the topic and argue one nonsensical thing after another? We're not talking about buffs. We're talking about forcing stalkers to team just like they tell everyone else to team. It should work both ways.
Punchy...nvm. You're just going to keep on shifting the goal posts and argue some unrelated tangent. This is vintage stalker logic.
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Wonderful assesment. I guess crack smoking is a stalker passtime.
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As far as I can tell, the prerequisites for a Scrapper's Crit... is.. erm...
[/ QUOTE ] is umm... a 5% chance of working. Really really reliable in PvP...absolutely have to have that as a scrapper to PvP. God...I couldn't survive without that 5%.
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And for a Blaster's Crit is low hitpoints...
[/ QUOTE ] Do you know how ow your HP's have to be to make Defiance work? Do know how low before Defiance really makes tremondous difference? Kind of hard to use Defiance when you're mezzed.
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and for a Controller's Crit is the target under the effect of a Hold...
[/ QUOTE ] Too bad break-frees are cheap as hell, stalkers and brutes have mez protection, a host of Crptr powers offer status protection, and Sleep, Hold, and Immobilizie can be obtained from power pools. Provided you live long enough to do any damage after you have them held.
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During a full-on fight, how much of a Stalker's time is actually spent hidden?
[/ QUOTE ] Another totally sophist arguement. Hidden only works for one attack. The amount of time is irrelevant to how valuble or useful being HIdden is. But leave it to a pro-stalker to put forth an irrelevant argument. You guys specialize in the non-sequitor
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Brute, actually.
That 5% for a Scrapper doesn't really seem as real-world, as I could compare my 1 critical (AS/Focus) with the 3 or 4 that I see flying over my head when going up against a Scrapper in SC. You can definitely count on doing more damage with a Scrapper/Brute in the long run than you could with 3 Acc/3 Dam Stalker.
As for Defiance, If that Blaster just got AS'ed they are sure as heck going to be able to turn right around and smash the Stalker with quite a bit more damage than the Stalker could muster in response. That 1/4 health is going to be a bigger boost than an unhidden Stalker will have.
Break Frees work both ways, though I see less Villains using them as one has to leave the zone to buy them, and folks don't want to lose their bounty just for purple pills.
As far as the usefulness of hide, AoEs break it, +Per breaks it, CM breaks it, Terrorize breaks it, Leadership, etc. Hide is only good enough to get the element of surprise and it is trumped in the arms race against Perception. It is a bonus to damage only if you are not hit within, I believe, 10 seconds with anything remotely mezz affecting or damaging.