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* Trade Tech Salvage for Magic and vice-versa
[/ QUOTE ] My SG just trades our magic salvage to another SG in our coalition. Works great.
Still needs to be a way for smaller SGs to get the cool stuff, though.
My SG is fairly small. We managed to build a base with everything in it except defenses. 1.5 for a 1X1 block is kinda crazy.
I could understand if we couldn't build the better defenses unless we had a bunch of active members, but not being able to build them at all is garbage.
You can't have the SG base cost on size of SG, unless Prestige belongs to the Player instead of the SG.
If you had a 75 person fully coordinated SG, you could have them all earn, everyone quit except the leader, buy everything, and then reinvite.
Yes a pain, but fully possible.
My suggestions:
1) Just remove a zero from all prices. This helps everyone. Smaller groups get to enjoy the new game content faster; bigger groups get raiding faster. (Keep the high influence to prestige exchange, though. Just need to paradigm shift the Prestige economy which is inflated.)
2) Sell salvage for prestige. This is a "me too" suggestion, but makes a lot of sense. Make it through the City Rep for easy programming; make a brand new contact in a hard to reach location for more game related content (Striga-trainer-like location done like a higher level store so a mish has to be run first to unlock them) Designated contact area would probably also encourage people to go there to swap salvage and would help decrease the Atlas spam traffic.
3) Fix the Prestige scaling. Higher level heroes should earn more Prestige; after all, they're more prestigious.
4) Zoning out from base. Pick 2-5 zones (Galaxy, Atlas, KR, Steel, and Talos; at least KR and Steel). Add them to the exit menu. Instant functionality for small groups, and nice QOL for larger ones who will be using their transporters for more diverse transport options.
5) Let people who don't have CoV into the base. C'mon--somone with CoV had to build it; let everyone enter it. Don't allow them to place/craft anything, just let them in.
But I have to add my never-going-to-happen suggestion, too:
6) Crafted item: Map to the Perez Maze (placed in Control room; it uses X control). Your SG members' in-game map of Perez Park is replaced by one with a zoomable, detailed map of the forest maze. I cannot begin to tell you how much I want one. 
President of the Arbiter Sands fan club. We will never forget.
An Etruscan Snood will nevermore be free
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Now, if they'd only look at the rent issue...
[/ QUOTE ]hehe Yea I was going to post something about that , but figured I'd wait until this goes through.
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Here, here! And well said Mr. Hamster! I'm a leader and architect of a mid-small SG and I don't care if we have to work for a year or more to build the neato base we want- the high prices don't bug me. But the current rent system is going to kill our ability to save for the things we want down the road. I appreciate the love, Statesman, really do- it is so rare that I'm not sure if we even have a word for it- what is the opposite of nerf? But baby-bases for smaller SGs are not going to fix all the problems we have with prestige.
"Don't unravel them-- your ears were meant to be that way."
-Steve Aylett
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3) Fix the Prestige scaling. Higher level heroes should earn more Prestige; after all, they're more prestigious.
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I do so wish people would stop suggesting this. I don't care how "realistic" it is that various flying people in tights get the same prestige as other flying people in tights. I care that the system is designed to make it equally advantageous to have members across all levels in your SG. The last thing I want is SGs saying "you can join when you reach the level cap" you'll generate more prestige then.
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3) Fix the Prestige scaling. Higher level heroes should earn more Prestige; after all, they're more prestigious.
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I do so wish people would stop suggesting this. I don't care how "realistic" it is that various flying people in tights get the same prestige as other flying people in tights. I care that the system is designed to make it equally advantageous to have members across all levels in your SG. The last thing I want is SGs saying "you can join when you reach the level cap" you'll generate more prestige then.
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I have to agree with Lothart on this one. If the prestige is different for levels it will restrict the SG desire to allow lower levels in thier SG.
I don't mind That the light is at the end of the tunnel. Just let me be able to see the light.
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3) Fix the Prestige scaling. Higher level heroes should earn more Prestige; after all, they're more prestigious.
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I do so wish people would stop suggesting this. I don't care how "realistic" it is that various flying people in tights get the same prestige as other flying people in tights. I care that the system is designed to make it equally advantageous to have members across all levels in your SG. The last thing I want is SGs saying "you can join when you reach the level cap" you'll generate more prestige then.
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For once Lothart, I agree with you. Currently lower lvl toons actually get a prestige bonus simply because their missions go faster. Scaling prestige to lvl will probably do exactly what you suggest and encourage levelism with groups restricting lower toons from joining.
"Don't unravel them-- your ears were meant to be that way."
-Steve Aylett
I think prestige should be tied to forum rank.
It's the only fair way to do it.
--------------------
Currently listening to Audioslave's Audioslave
Chief Hamster of the Fist of Justice / Shadows of Victory
Victory Server: Join Victory Forum for team forming and general game chat and IRC Chat: irc.hashmark.net #victory for offline chatting.
Rock, rock on Hamster.
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3) Fix the Prestige scaling. Higher level heroes should earn more Prestige; after all, they're more prestigious.
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I do so wish people would stop suggesting this...I care that the system is designed to make it equally advantageous to have members across all levels in your SG. The last thing I want is SGs saying "you can join when you reach the level cap" you'll generate more prestige then.
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You calling me out, Lothart? Can I say, "Zug Zugt" to you? 
But seriously, I for one won't stop suggesting it. Right now earning appears to be a bell curve. Prestige earning really kicks into gear around 18 or so and then falls off at 26 or so. Given how incredibly expensive most things are, and given that influence and exp scale in proportion to level, the fall off of prestige doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
"Fixing" prestige earning to be in line with the rest of in-game economics would seem to be in order. It also addresses the thread since it helps all groups, especially the smaller ones.
If that affects one's ability to get into a min/max uber SG, I can see that *maybe* being a problem. I'd think that min/maxers would want to milk as much prestige from member leveling as possible; they'd also want to max their odds of SG members being online at any given moment at various levels to run mishes for the prestige bonus. Who knows, they may just double-box, run alts to the sweet spot and delete, or probably a lot of things I haven't thought of.
Plus, if you're over level 34, why would they want you in the current system? Lowbies earn more Prestige than you do.
From the anecdotal evidence in just this thread, there are a lot of smaller groups with different personalities out there. It shouldn't be that hard to form one that values having all levels around, or finding an established larger one to join that's under 75 members that also values having a good "spread."
President of the Arbiter Sands fan club. We will never forget.
An Etruscan Snood will nevermore be free
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Bases, as they currently stand, really focus on mid and large sized groups earning Prestige - so the complaints have a good point. We're trying to work something out so that a smaller group can get something useful quickly - and also put Salvage to use! Can't promise a timeline, but we are working on it.
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Suggestion: multiply prestige earnings for each member, based on how few other members are in the SG. When that goes live, apply the same multiplier to each group's current Net Worth, and adjust "free" / "unspent" prestige accordingly.
First thing would be to decide what is a "mid-level" group; let's pick 40 members, just because it's a round number - and use a nonlinear progression, so that the increase to prestige earned is ever greater, for the same number of embers "short" of the previous threshold.
So, 36m to 40m = 100%
31m to 35m = 110% (like having ~34-39 people earning prestige) ...? That's a 10% gain, for 5 members "lost".
Make the next step 15%, for the same 5 "lost" members: 26m to 30m = 125% (like having ~32-38 people earning prestige) ...!
Continue the progression:
21m to 25m = 145% (like having ~30-36 people earning prestige)
16m to 20m = 170% (like having ~32-34 people earning prestige)
15m = 200% (like having 30 people earning prestige)
Wait. Pause a second, and re-evaluate. At this point, each member lost is also 20K prestige lost. Up the rate of gain, but make it linear, and per-member:
14m = 225% (like having ~31 people earning prestige)
13m = 250% (like having ~32 people earning prestige)
12m = 275% (like having 33 people earning prestige)
11m = 300% (like having 33 people earning prestige)
10m = 325% (like having ~32 people earning prestige)
9m = 350% (like having ~29 people earning prestige)
8m = 375% (like having 28 people earning prestige)
7m = 400% (like having 28 people earning prestige)
Pause again; nice round number ont eh bonus, let's kick things up a notch, with this few people prestige income will be extremely low, no matter what:
6m = 450% (like having 27 people earning prestige)
5m = 500% (like having 25 people earning prestige)
4m = 550% (like having 22 people earning prestige)
3m = 600% (like having 18 people earning prestige)
2m = 650% (like having 13 people earning prestige)
1m = 700% (like having 7 people earning prestige)
There. THAT, I think, would address the difficulties of small groups; it has flaws, yes (too many alts in the same group = shooting yourself in the foot WRT prestige income).
You can simply measure the current net worth of a group at the moment the patch goes live, spent and unspent prestige together, and multiply it by the appropriate number from above, based on how many people are in the group right then. Just put the patch live without warning, and noone should be able to pull off any exploits, either. ^_^
The benefit of doing it that way is, you don't need to evaluate the price of items, not now ... and not stuff you add in the future. If a group's membership changes, their base doesn't have to be re-evaluated for cost, so their "unspent prestige" total need never be touched.
All that changes, once the patch goes live, is how much Prestige each SG and Vg has at that moment ... and after that, how much prestige any given hero accumulates per defeated enemy ...!
This means less effort TOMORROW, net month, next year, and so on. Keep Base-building prices balanced for the mid-to-large group, and fluctuating memberships will take care of themselves ...!
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I like this idea. It normalizes everything towards a mid-sized group and yet makes it easier for a small group to build a base while not penalizing the mid to large groups' ability to build a base.
In essence, everyone wins and walks away happy.
Virtue: multiple characters.
CoH/V: Woot! Maybe Fun is to be had once again.
Ack! RUN! Regen is glowing mean & green!
If it reduces you, it's a nerf.
If it buffs the mobs, it's challenge.
They are not the same.
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You calling me out, Lothart? Can I say, "Zug Zugt" to you?
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It doesn't seem to violate the forum rules so feel free.
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But seriously, I for one won't stop suggesting it.
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Well, most wishes don't come true so I see no reason this one should be any different
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Right now earning appears to be a bell curve. Prestige earning really kicks into gear around 18 or so and then falls off at 26 or so.
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I think it's early to make such conclusions. The system is a bit new. In CoV, in particular, we have not reached the point where many SGs will have a number of level 40s who can work to provide infamy to lower level players to ensure they can remain in SG mode as they level up.
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Given how incredibly expensive most things are,
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That, to me, is a seperate issue.
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"Fixing" prestige earning to be in line with the rest of in-game economics would seem to be in order...If that affects one's ability to get into a min/max uber SG, I can see that *maybe* being a problem.
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I can see it being a serious problem and, as far as I can tell, it's the only reason that jusitifes the current design. So the devs must have seen it as an important issue as well, otherwise why would they have designed the system this way?
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Plus, if you're over level 34, why would they want you in the current system? Lowbies earn more Prestige than you do.
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I don't understand how that can be. Yes, lower level missions tend to be shorter and allow low level characters to earn more prestige than higher level characters. But higher level characters should be able to kill ten even con minions at a faster rate than low level characters can. There should be balancing factors already in place. Further investigation may reveal these balancing factors are imperfect and in need of adjusting but I think it's really soon to be calling for scrapping a core element of the design when we don't even have 3 months of experience in order to base our number on.
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From the anecdotal evidence in just this thread, there are a lot of smaller groups with different personalities out there. It shouldn't be that hard to form one that values having all levels around, or finding an established larger one to join that's under 75 members that also values having a good "spread."
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Think about the customer relations issues over setting up a system that biases in favour of any level? Think about how easily people's feelings can get hurt when they are rejected from an SG or (worse) kicked out of one. Is it worth it to change the system at the risk of alienating people in real life? I don't believe so.
If the current system is /not/ roughly equal across all levels then I'd support refinement to make it so but not a change to deliberately unbalance it.
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You calling me out, Lothart? Can I say, "Zug Zugt" to you?
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It doesn't seem to violate the forum rules so feel free.
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Good one here, so let me say "swobu," too, but without a "t"
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But seriously, I for one won't stop suggesting it.
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Well, most wishes don't come true so I see no reason this one should be any different
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And realistically, I certainly know that Statesman has his own set of wishes. Personally, I hope they involve Bouncing Positron, but I suppose that's neither here nor there...
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Right now earning appears to be a bell curve. Prestige earning really kicks into gear around 18 or so and then falls off at 26 or so.
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I think it's early to make such conclusions. The system is a bit new.
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True enough. Observations I'm making are based on my stable of alts compared to my lvl 33 MC/FF troller since the new system started (was low 20s when I6 hit). I also check our SG roster frequently to see how close we are to getting that next megabuck$ item. My troller runs on Heroic. He has banked 85K in Prestige. Currently on minions he's pulling 12 infl/8 prest AFAIremember (worth about 100+ infl out of SG mode), about the same as my lower level people. Not sure what will happen when he hits 34 and no longer earns infl, but the trend doesn't look good. In comparison, though, my lvl 19 Blaster and Tanker each have 24K and haven't played that much since I6. Our highest scrapper has banked 100+K but has just hit 26. He's going to be watching to see if there's a curve as well (he runs on higher diff).
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"Fixing" prestige earning to be in line with the rest of in-game economics would seem to be in order...If that affects one's ability to get into a min/max uber SG, I can see that *maybe* being a problem.
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I can see it being a serious problem and, as far as I can tell, it's the only reason that jusitifes the current design. So the devs must have seen it as an important issue as well, otherwise why would they have designed the system this way?
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SG snobbery COULD be the reason the system is designed this way. However, the system could be designed this way because it is simply what they came up with based on the factors they envisioned. As Colin Powell says, though, "No plan survives contact with the enemy." Indeed, if the system worked well out of the box, States wouldn't be inclined to throw the small groups a bone since they would have had a bone to gnaw on when I6 went live.
I very much am a data person, however, and would be inclined to take more careful notes since I do log a lot of hours playing.
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Plus, if you're over level 34, why would they want you in the current system? Lowbies earn more Prestige than you do.
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I don't understand how that can be....There should be balancing factors already in place. Further investigation may reveal these balancing factors are imperfect and in need of adjusting but I think it's really soon to be calling for scrapping a core element of the design when we don't even have 3 months of experience in order to base our number on.
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Agreed that more data is needed. Not sure about the "core" part--it may just be "an" element of the design. If it is "core" the "bone" that small groups are thrown will reveal it.
Of course, if Statesman would love to jump in and give us a behind-the-scenes look at why/how the system was implemented, I'm sure I'm not the only user who'd enjoy seeing it.
President of the Arbiter Sands fan club. We will never forget.
An Etruscan Snood will nevermore be free
I only feel compelled to respond to one point, since we botrh seem to agree more data is needed.
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SG snobbery COULD be the reason the system is designed this way. However, the system could be designed this way because it is simply what they came up with based on the factors they envisioned. As Colin Powell says, though, "No plan survives contact with the enemy." Indeed, if the system worked well out of the box, States wouldn't be inclined to throw the small groups a bone since they would have had a bone to gnaw on when I6 went live.
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There's multiple issues going on here.
Statesman himself said "Bases, as they currently stand, really focus on mid and large sized groups earning Prestige" so the issue around throwing small SGs a bone is not tied inherently to how prestige is rewarded. Statesman seems to have been under the impression that people who really wanted bases would join medium tolarge SGs (with no real definition of the cut off point of medium).
He may have underestimated loyalty to existing supergroup and desire to play in smaller groups. That's not surprising given that there's no way to data mine to determine in advance how people feel about such things. They are qualitative measures not quantitative ones. Without a decent market research budget that issue is one developers are likely to be caught by surprise on, certainly far more than any system based on a mathematical model-such as prestige earning.
Whatever you decide to do PLEASE make it backwards and forwards compatible with larger groups.
Meaning that if a small group of people start a supergroup, realize they've only got 5 or 6 people they decide to focus on the small group amenities. Then 2 months later thier group has exploded into 50 members. Don't force them to completely abandon whatever efforts they've put into the small base and start from scratch on the normal base building. Let them upgrade or sell off everything and roll it into a new larger base.
Likewise, if a large active group starts out, earns 20-30 million prestige but then slowly start losing people until they're left with 4 or 5 members, allow them to downgrade into the smaller base and keep most or all of their earned prestige for easy living and a pimptastic base.
Honestly, the easiest thing to do would be to make the basic worktables cheaper, not consume power or control, and allow them to be placed in any room, including the entrance. Then groups could at least refine salvage until they'd earned enough prestige to build rooms that could actually use it.
And one more thing, you have got to introduce a way to get prestige from crafting. Even if it's something as simple as crafting items rather than purchasing them. If a crafted item is much cheaper or free to place, but served the same function, that would be pretty darn cool.
Formerly "Back Alley Brawler"
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And one more thing, you have got to introduce a way to get prestige from crafting. Even if it's something as simple as crafting items rather than purchasing them.
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Can crafted items be traded between players?
If so one could, in theory, sell the crafted items to other players for INF which could be converted to prestige. But, as long as prestige costs are high for placing crafted items I don't think this would ever be cost effective. As is, most people are drowning in common salvage before they can afford to use it and rare salvage may as well be sold directly for INF rather than taking the extra step of refining it.
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and that they're bringing in a ton of Salvage but can't really do anything about it.
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Jack even with a midsized group we still have salvage issues...
We can build tons of stuff. The issue is it will be months before we can use any of it.
We need to save up for the overpriced secure rooms to place defesive items..so there is no reason to build these items.
We could build an advanced database... but it cost 1 million xp to place. And when we do we will need more power, so save for new room and power... oh and wait... its seems to need a supercomputer it wont connect to the little mainframe... another 1.5 million to place... so as you see building anything costs millions to do anything with it.
Even the little Robot fabricator costs 100K to place and eats up control and power.
Every little baby step costs about 600K.
They problem I think is that all testing you have done has been by giving builders millions to work with at a time. Its very different in reality when you have to save up for weeks for every minor change. There is just roadblock after roadblock.
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Can crafted items be traded between players?
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No, there is no item tab to trade from.
I think it's really fairly straightforward what they need to do:
classify stuff into tiers, and create prices based off of that. I mean, they already have the items and rooms stratified into layers
essentially anything you can buy without unlocking it, should be cheap. call them tier 1s, also. basic room types, like all the 2X2 rooms and the 1X1 security room should all be pretty cheap. maybe 50-75% of their current cost,
anything that takes a basic workbench should be worth a little more. call em tier 2s and make them affordable. say, around the current prices to place them. tier 2 rooms would either be the lowest costing secure room or the next step up from the basic building of its type. these rooms should be about the same prices as the basic ones.
advanced workbench, tier 3 kinda pricey
expert, tier 4 freaking expensive
basically, with a pricing model like that, any SG with a few active members could have a raidable base, complete with all rooms, some defenses and all the furniture they wanted in about a month and no one but a near cap SG working their butts off could get the really high-end stuff.
sounds like balanced idea to me. everyone gets access to every type of room and item, but the really big groups get the really cool versions of them.
The fix is easy. Make the most basic items cost 1/2 as much. Better yet, just 1/2 the cost of everything.
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Right now a lot of posts have talked about the high Prestige cost of Base items - and that they're bringing in a ton of Salvage but can't really do anything about it.
Bases, as they currently stand, really focus on mid and large sized groups earning Prestige - so the complaints have a good point. We're trying to work something out so that a smaller group can get something useful quickly - and also put Salvage to use! Can't promise a timeline, but we are working on it.
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H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
lol first the evangelical archetype and now this? this is going to be a good year for coh.
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The last thing I want is SGs saying "you can join when you reach the level cap" you'll generate more prestige then.
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QFT.
Right now, there's a real good reason to convincelower-level newcomers to join your SG - even give them "signing bonusses" of a few thousand infamy, say - because the amount of prestige they will earn for the group, by "living in SG mode" until they hit level 25, can be HUGE.
Make it so their prestige contribution is less than that os fomeone in their 30's, and you rob thegameof an IMO very interesting dynamic, where high-level characters are motivated to actively seek out and recruit low-level character into their SG..
If you'd simply fix the insane base costs, you wouldn't need to come up with something entirely new for smaller SGs. Even a very large, very active SG would require something like 12 years (not exaggerating) to afford the largest base plot. That seems a tad harsh. The prices are absurd. Fix those, and the rest takes care of itself.
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Right now, there's a real good reason to convincelower-level newcomers to join your SG - even give them "signing bonusses" of a few thousand infamy, say - because the amount of prestige they will earn for the group, by "living in SG mode" until they hit level 25, can be HUGE.
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100K by lvl 25 is what I made starting in an SG at level 2. 40K of that after lvl 20.
My scrapper earned 100K between levels 32 (when Prestige was implemented) and 36 (now).
The other benefit is that for the chronic rerollers and alt-holics they can just keep rerolling toons, taking them to 25 or so and rerolling again and, in the process, help their SGs a lot.
Statesman, thx for noticing not all sg's are huge with 75% online at all times to gain prestige. My sg is around 30 strong but not enough playtime among them to have more than 2 rooms built with a power generator.
Some ideas suggested are well thought of and would be very valuable to us. Here are some of the suggestions already made with a few of my own: <ul type="square"> * Sell Salvage for prestige
* Trade Tech Salvage for Magic and vice-versa
* Have prestige build and costs porportioned in ratio to sg size (didn't quite follow that post very well....sorry)
* Earn Prestige for badges earned in SG mode, i.e. 1000 per Exploration, 2500 per History, 1000+ per villain (depending on villain badge), 10000+ per SF/TF raising amount per level, and nice prestige bonuses for rare monsters, gladiators, and mission badges (by set)
* Give us the ability to sell Crafted items to players (temp powers or weapons)[/list]This will aid in the building of prestige without it being an easy cash in, after all as in the badge suggestion, we still earn the badges why not earn prestige as well.
All in all...thx again for helping us out
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