[ QUOTE ]
Batman, Robin, Nightwing, Batgirl, Oracle, Azrial, Huntress (not full time), Spoiler (now deceased). Sounds like a supergroup to me.
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And Batman recruited these individuals BEFORE the construction of the sumptuous and very functional Batcave? What's that? No, he didn't? You speak out of the backside on this? I thought so.
Superman's Fortress of Solitude (Silver Age and Bronze Age). It's probably the most extensive base ever--more extensive and elaborate than the JLA's, even had an entire staff of Superman Robots attached to it. It even had its own miniature CITY within it for a while.
Yah but he's Supes.
"City of Heroes. April 27, 2004 - August 31, 2012. Obliterated not with a weapon of mass destruction, not by an all-powerful supervillain... but by a cold-hearted and cowardly corporate suck-up."
Meh. His dad PLed him and twinked him with a few million Influence. The n00b.
In the post you quoted me from originally, I talked about more than just Batman, yet Batman was the only one you concentrated on. Hence, my comment of you singling out Batman from my comments.
And if you never insinuated that I wanted a Batcave, then why keep telling me that I cannot have one?
I guess we are going to just agree to disagree on what constitutes a supergroup. By my definition, Batman and crew is a supergroup in the same way the Titans are. They are a group of affiliated heroes that work out of the same general area and use the same home base. Whether they have their own besides the group base is irrelevant, no matter how many times you insist that they do not use it enough. One more time, it is not how often you access to it, it is how often you are allowed to access it.
As for my need to prove Batman and crew as a supergroup, I guess it would be about the same as your need to prove to me your incorrect view of them not being a supergroup.
Super Reflexes - The New Squishy
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Batman, Robin, Nightwing, Batgirl, Oracle, Azrial, Huntress (not full time), Spoiler (now deceased). Sounds like a supergroup to me.
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And Batman recruited these individuals BEFORE the construction of the sumptuous and very functional Batcave? What's that? No, he didn't? You speak out of the backside on this? I thought so.
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Oh, sorry. I did not know that building a base before picking a team was what prevented a group from being considered a group.
For the record, the original Robin and the original Batgirl joined the fight before the batcave was especially functional. When Robin joined, it was mostly just a garage with a computer. When Batgirl joined, it was not much more improved.
So, to quote you, "You speak out of the backside on this? I thought so."
Super Reflexes - The New Squishy
Weijyan, give it up. You're defending a rediculous arguement.
The Batcave is Batman's lair, and he lets his sidekicks use it too.
When Robin needs to use a computer, he doesn't use the Bat Family Computer, he doesn't use the Robin Computer, he uses the Bat Computer. He uses the Batphone, the Batpoles and the Bat-urinal. Like a guy who doesn't really trust his houseguest, Batman wrote his name on everything to make sure Robin understood who owns it.
The Batcave is well know for all Batman's trophies. A Giant Penny, a dinosaur, various weapons that he's taken from his enemies. Tons of stuff. What does Robin have? A little shelf in the corner. I'm not making that up, a recent issue of Flash had Flash and Nightwing reminiscing about it. It wasn't even a nice shelf from Ikea, it was a board that Robin had nailed to the wall.
The Batcave is a part of Batman, and the sidekicks just happen to be allowed inside. It's not an area they share, it belongs to Batman. Weijyan, you're not saying otherwise because you actually believe that the Bat Family is a supergroup. You just made an odd arguement, and now you're stuck defending it.
Let it go.
Well Jack is into mythology.... So lets us it against him!!!!!!
Lets look at the Greek gods....
Lets say Olympus was their base.
They only let 12 people into their supergroup. When Dionysis wanted in they said Sorry grape boy. Then Hestia gave up her place and they let him in.
So even though there were maybe 1000s of characters only 12 could be Olympians.
So small groups are the prefered way of the Gods.
If States is Zeus then he needs to follow his own rules.
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Lets look at the Greek gods....
Lets say Olympus was their base.
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Bad analogy warning! This analogy will divert you from what you are actualyl talking about and send you spining into endless debates aboitu analogies (i.e., exactly the opposite of what you expect an anlogy to do) however, looking back we were already there.
The Greeks had hundreds of Gods and spirits who resided on Olympus; far more than the current SG cap. The core pantheon was made up of 12 (11 before Hermes was born). And really, the reasons for the changes had more to do with assimilating other cultures and the significance of numbers in Greek society preventing them from simply expanding the number of "core gods". If anything the core 12 were just the people with base editing privledges.
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The Batcave is well know for all Batman's trophies. A Giant Penny, a dinosaur, various weapons that he's taken from his enemies. Tons of stuff. What does Robin have? A little shelf in the corner. I'm not making that up, a recent issue of Flash had Flash and Nightwing reminiscing about it. It wasn't even a nice shelf from Ikea, it was a board that Robin had nailed to the wall.
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So, you are going to take a flashback from when Nightwing was a kid as the current state in which the cave is currently in? Keep in mind that he said he had just started his collection. Yes, I have that issue, too.
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Weijyan, you're not saying otherwise because you actually believe that the Bat Family is a supergroup. You just made an odd arguement, and now you're stuck defending it.
Let it go.
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It is not so odd of an arguement. And I already tried to let it go. Remember above? I suggested we just agree to disagree? That suggestion stands, but if you want to keep going, so can I. After all, all we really are arguing is opinion. You have yours, I have mine. You have said nothing to change mine, and I apparently have said nothing to change yours.
Super Reflexes - The New Squishy
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And really, the reasons for the changes had more to do with assimilating other cultures...
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They usually do...
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After all, all we really are arguing is opinion. You have yours, I have mine. You have said nothing to change mine
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That's because I can't change an opinion you never had. You've never really believed that the Batcave is a base for a Supergroup. You just keep saying that because you made an odd comment and took a wrong turn defending it.
Don't believe me? Still think you actually believe that rediculous notion?
Here's a quiz.
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Which is which?
.................................................. ........Base of a Supergroup......................Personal Lair of a Hero
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Avenger's Mansion.................... |________________________|________________________ __|
Batcave..................................... |________________________|________________________ __|
Xavier School for gifted children |________________________|________________________ __|
Fortress of Solitude................... |________________________|________________________ __|
JLA Watchtower........................ |________________________|________________________ __|
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Give that test to every single person in every comic book store you can find. Don't explain anything first, just give them the test and have them fill it out.
Actually, don't bother. You already know that every single person is going to mark Personal Lair for the Batcave. You know that because before this innane conversation started, you would have too.
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Which is which?
.................................................. ........Base of a Supergroup......................Personal Lair of a Hero
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Avenger's Mansion.................... |________XXX_____________|________________________ __|
Batcave..................................... |________________________|___________XXX__________ __|
Xavier School for gifted children |________XXX_____________|________________________ __|
Fortress of Solitude................... |________________________|___________XXX__________ __|
JLA Watchtower........................ |________XXX_____________|________________________ __|
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My reasoning? Simply this: it's not who uses it, it's whoit was built for. The Batcave and the Fortress of Solitude were built for a specific hero, BY that hero, before they had allies/sidekicks/etc who might want to use the facility in question.
The Avengers' Mansion, Xavier's School, and the Watchtower were all built for multiple heroes at once. Not just capable of multiple at once, but built for an existing or planned group from Day 1.
Keke... And you asked me about why I keep trying to prove my point? Twice, now I have suggested we just agree to disagree and you keep arguing.
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After all, all we really are arguing is opinion. You have yours, I have mine. You have said nothing to change mine
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That's because I can't change an opinion you never had. You've never really believed that the Batcave is a base for a Supergroup. You just keep saying that because you made an odd comment and took a wrong turn defending it.
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No, actually that is my opinion. Despite what you obviously believe, that is my thought on the matter, which can neither be proven nor disproven in any true scientific matter. The closest thing you can do is ask the people at DC which it is, and you would likely get differing opinions there, too.
What, exactly, is your reasoning for your stance? The fact that Bruce Wayne owns the cave? In that case, then the Avenger's Mansion is not a base either. It is owned and maintained by Tony Stark. Then neither is the Titan's Tower, since it was built by Ollie Queen.
As for your quiz, the only one I would list as a lair would be the Fortress of Solitude. Why? Because Superman is the only one that uses it. Unlike the Batcave, which is used by most of the bat-brats.
Like it or not, they still go there for supplies and information. The same cannot be said for the Fortress of Solitude. Superboy, Supergirl, even Wonder Woman may access it, but they do not with-out Superman being there. Why? Because it is his. The bat-brats do not need Batman to be there to get into the cave. They just go and get what they need. Why? Because it is their base,
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Actually, don't bother. You already know that every single person is going to mark Personal Lair for the Batcave. You know that because before this innane conversation started, you would have too.
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Nope. I would have, even with-out this conversation, called the batcave a base if anybody asked. I have given my reasoning why, now how about you give your reasoning why not?
If not, then just agree to disagree and move on. The fact of the matter is, we are still arguing opinion. You can continue to incorrectly insist that my opinion is not my opinion, which is really getting old, or you can actually try to give me a reason to change my opinion.
Super Reflexes - The New Squishy
As a member of one of those smaller SG's THANK YOU STATESMAN. And for the <BEEP> who complained about whining, it isn't whining when we are right and a problem really does exist. Rent is silly and I have to run 5 or 6 missions (a days playing for me) right now just to cover it and its just going to get bigger and will eventually take all my time just to pay. I have 4 or 5 items that I cannot place because we cannot afford the cost just to place them down in a half finished base because we cannot afford the rooms to complete it. You big guys just send out your 'toon army' drones and rake in the prestige while we are toiling in the trenches for our pittance so ease up.
As one of the newer, smaller SG's we have decided to simply bank the prestiege until this issue is resolved. We can't afford anything right now and quite frankly don't see the need for a "reception" room at all. No one will EVER come visit and all it amounts to is a tax. To use a previous analogy, I've never seen heros lounging around watching the big screen in the Batcave.
We also won't have to pay the high rent. (whats the rent on the Batcave or Fortress of Solitude?) Natural formations have been completly left out of the equation. I mean, I've kicked enough trolls and Council out of caves you'd think the devs would let us keep ONE of them. Some of them Council caves are pretty well set up. Take out the trash and move right in. Maybe something like a an arc of like 3 mishs and you get a cave base.
Wishful thinking.
36 level 50's in various servers...haven't been here in a while. It's now over 50
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As one of the newer, smaller SG's we have decided to simply bank the prestiege until this issue is resolved. We can't afford anything right now and quite frankly don't see the need for a "reception" room at all. No one will EVER come visit and all it amounts to is a tax.
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Just don't place any Power units. Until you generate yoru own electricity, you don't pay rent. And items sell back for 100% of what you pay for them, so ... now is a good time, with a decorative-only area, to get in some practise making nice-looking areas.
I got charged rent without having any power units. It was for my single room base that I made for one of my older heroes.
I got charged 6 Prestige.
You get charged rent. you just don't have to pay it if you don't have any use for power. things are turned off for non paying of rent but if you don't have anything that works , no need to worry about it being turned off. When you are ready to have working items just pay the one month of rent that you have due to turn the power back on.
I don't mind That the light is at the end of the tunnel. Just let me be able to see the light.
I posted this in another thread, but it is highly appropriate here too.
A large part of the complaints center around getting just a basic starting base up and running.
Which got me thinking, and I did some checking on Test.
The basic Generator produces 1000 energy and costs 225000.
The basic "Control" unit produces 50 control and costs 150000.
The basic worktable needs...20 energy and 10 control.
So the other 980 energy and 40 control are wasted. Even with the advanced worktable, that's 70 energy and 35 control total, well within limits.
It would make a lot of sense it seems to introduce a "starter" version of the generators and control items.
50k for 100 energy and 75k for 25 energy. Both of these would be 1x1 sized items, which would fit nicely into 2x1 "starting" versions of their respective rooms. Halving the cost on both those rooms, because they are now half size seems sensible. While we're at it, let's do the same for workshops and teleport rooms, both only taking one of their respective items.
What does all that give us?
Well, a "working" base, with sufficient power and control for the basic worktable, would cost:
75k + 50k + 50k = for the rooms,
50k + 75k + 25k = for the equipment,
for a total of 325k for a working base.
In other words, a 15 man SG needs only 25k to have a base they can start making stuff with.
This doesn't remove the big bases as something to really have to work towards for big SG's (though whether that's still overdone is open for debate), but allows a small SG to very quickly get an operating base up and running with the minimum of fuss.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Psychoti
"....so I headbutted the blind chick."
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[ cruise / casual-tempest.net / transference.org / xenogamous.com / wytedragon.net / quantam sufficit ]
Thanks Statesman! My CoH main has a SG of one just to build a personal lair. Batman has one, Superman has one, Green Arrow at least use to have one, why can't Madam Enigma have a working lair? As it is I'm hoping the prestige gained for trading in 1mil influance is alot. Running invincable missions at level 39 and I'm barely getting 15 prestige for minions conning orange, and maybe 28 for red cons... it's gonna take forever to get a very small base going. My bowfender on liberty is the leader of an sg on liberty. No more then 7 or so players (one of my alts who can earn decent prestige as a spines/dark armor [censored] well). Finaly managed to build a single room, a workshop. Took two days and a member joining to get a worktable put in it. Now just need 400 thousand prestige or so to build a control room, power room, and the needed core items to get the base working! Surrrrrre. After five days we gained maybe 10 thou prestige mostly cause I never leave SG mode. This is nuts! Madam Enigma will never Raid, and likely my other SG wont eather, the group's too dang small! Not to mention it's probably gonna be june before we have a working workshop, let alone the transporter room and private hospital I want to add!
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
[ QUOTE ]
I posted this in another thread, but it is highly appropriate here too.
A large part of the complaints center around getting just a basic starting base up and running.
Which got me thinking, and I did some checking on Test.
The basic Generator produces 1000 energy and costs 225000.
The basic "Control" unit produces 50 control and costs 150000.
The basic worktable needs...20 energy and 10 control.
So the other 980 energy and 40 control are wasted. Even with the advanced worktable, that's 70 energy and 35 control total, well within limits.
It would make a lot of sense it seems to introduce a "starter" version of the generators and control items.
50k for 100 energy and 75k for 25 energy. Both of these would be 1x1 sized items, which would fit nicely into 2x1 "starting" versions of their respective rooms. Halving the cost on both those rooms, because they are now half size seems sensible. While we're at it, let's do the same for workshops and teleport rooms, both only taking one of their respective items.
What does all that give us?
Well, a "working" base, with sufficient power and control for the basic worktable, would cost:
75k + 50k + 50k = for the rooms,
50k + 75k + 25k = for the equipment,
for a total of 325k for a working base.
In other words, a 15 man SG needs only 25k to have a base they can start making stuff with.
This doesn't remove the big bases as something to really have to work towards for big SG's (though whether that's still overdone is open for debate), but allows a small SG to very quickly get an operating base up and running with the minimum of fuss.
[/ QUOTE ]
once you get beyond a couple of starter rooms, control and power will go pretty quickly... add a mission computer, medical stuff, raid teleport, zone telepads etc and you will see control just vanish.
Yeah, power is an ample enough commodity early on, but control just dissappears. Most of that extra control you have will be used up just by adding the second worktable.
There's enough there for a basic worktable, and an advanced can be added with the addition of a basic control auxillary, like a console.
Though since I proposed a smaller workshop that could only take one workbench, you wouldn't be adding a second until you could afford the bigger workshop room anyway.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Psychoti
"....so I headbutted the blind chick."
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[ cruise / casual-tempest.net / transference.org / xenogamous.com / wytedragon.net / quantam sufficit ]
I never said you do need to have a huge group to have a base. I never said anything like that at all. I specifically said that the Fantastic Four were a supergroup.
I never singled out Batman.
Someone else made the rediculous statement that the Bat Family constitutes a super group and the Bat cave is their base. That was an incorrect statement, and I pointed out why.
Why you needed to try and prove that the Bat family is a supergroup in the same way as the JLA or the Avengers is beyond me.