You can sell everything back at cost, right? You'll only lose salvage.
Know what you mean, Riot. My main's SG is her and 3 of my alts. All the people I play with on an average basis are already in other SGs. To me the point of a SG is for friends to get togather and play togather, not to have 75 people that don't even know each others names. I avoid bases like the plague during CoV Beta, wanted to be surprized when I had my main build thier base... only to find the only things I could afford were decrative... They all go around in SG mode all the time and have put away a whole 160k ish so I hope we can trade in large group bases for smaller group bases.
Kyle
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Right now a lot of posts have talked about the high Prestige cost of Base items - and that they're bringing in a ton of Salvage but can't really do anything about it.
Bases, as they currently stand, really focus on mid and large sized groups earning Prestige - so the complaints have a good point. We're trying to work something out so that a smaller group can get something useful quickly - and also put Salvage to use! Can't promise a timeline, but we are working on it.
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About frackin' time! Not everybody is in a gigantermous 75-member group, after all.
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2) Sell salvage for prestige.
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This doesn't help small groups, it makes large groups get prestige faster. It would, if anything, exacerbate the gulf between the haves and have-nots.
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3) Fix the Prestige scaling. Higher level heroes should earn more Prestige; after all, they're more prestigious.
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Then again, they'r ealso "old news". After you hear about Captain Unbelievable kicking in the teeth of some random bunchof ganger punks for the fifty-thousandth time ... is it REALLY going to impress you more than the rising star of the relatively unknown hero ...? No. It won't.
And OOC, I *like* the fact that my low-level alts can still make a meaningful contribution to the SG as a whole, by way of prestige income.
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6) Crafted item: Map to the Perez Maze (placed in Control room; it uses X control). Your SG members' in-game map of Perez Park is replaced by one with a zoomable, detailed map of the forest maze. I cannot begin to tell you how much I want one. 
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Funny, I already HAVE that. Go to vidiots, and download the allingame.exe patch. Install it and *poof* the maze is mapped for you, in-game (it doesn't remvoe the Fog-ofWar effect, though).
ok you heard statesman, now its time to hear the DEMOCRATIC response to what is going on...
For those of you who do not realise, i will make it clear and simple on how RENT is charged... feel free to look it up, its posted.
Rent is charged based on the TOTAL SG assets. that means not only the plot, the rooms , and the stuff inside the base... BUT your unspent prestige.
Now what this equates to in real life terms is this. You have to pay rent for your house, your rooms , your x-box 360 ( heh i got MINE!!!) and your savings account.
so if you are thinking of saving up. fuggetaboutit... as of this monday i paid in our SG
Team vanguard (check out our small base by clicking here) a little over 30k for what we have. And heck we DON'T RAID!!!! we were planing on saving for a small secure plot ( 11mil) but if that is just the start of how bad the rent is gonna fly... i dont think well EVER get that far...
so statesman, if you or one of your minions happens to read this. Please consider the following.
#1 eliminate the cost of rent from accumilated savings of prestige.
#2 please put in some form of SG vault to store stuff ( not just inspires, but enhancements please and maybe influence)
#3 lower the Total cost of ownership of bases and equipment. (i understand that you need to keep some sort of rent, that is understandable, but the prices are outragous!!!)
if those 3 conditions are met... then some meger sliver of faith in what you are supposed to represent to the gaming comunity may be repaired...
"Lokk, you have a powersuit that is self-contained, can withstand any atmosphere, it can fly and shoot out energy beams. BUT you cant open the helmet to have coffee and doughnts??? Sad man.... just... sad" PatriotPrime asking me why I am angry all the time.
For what you need, you wont need a computer.
Just Energy room, Control room, Workshop room, Transport room and Infirmary. Roughly 1.13 mill prestige total for those rooms and the stuff that you need to make them work.
"Most people that have no idea what they are doing have no idea that they don't know what they are doing." - John Cleese
@Ukase
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nor needs to be too manny people vanish with sgs id rather keep it simple it almost feels like workwhen dealig with prestige when it need to me simple like influence but not as simple
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What? A sentence starts with a capital letter. At the end, you use a period. You have made me feel stupid because I can't make sense of what you wrote. Please revise it.
"Most people that have no idea what they are doing have no idea that they don't know what they are doing." - John Cleese
@Ukase
I have to agree. Why does an SG need to be "large"?
But then, why does one have to be small?
I think, that whole problem is, it shouldn't make a difference.
I do think that prestige should belong to the individual hero, not the SG. Or split it. A guy who leaves an Sg for one reason or another should not leave with nothing.
"Most people that have no idea what they are doing have no idea that they don't know what they are doing." - John Cleese
@Ukase
I really appreciate that. Maybe I can have some fun building a base too.
I don't need to be able to raid other bases or have an item of power for the bonus, but I would like to be able to have a base with a computer, power supply, medical teleporter, and workshop. I would like the workshop because it would be nice to be able to build stuff with the savage - that I don't need for base defense or raiding other bases - that would be useful to the sg on some level (i.e. temp powers or sg related powers (tp to recall to the base even when you aren't eating pavement, tp to other sg members from the base [maybe the y have to have special transponder temp power with them to do either?], etc.)).
-so maybe the stuff that is essential should be cheap (at least cheaper) or come gratis (for the rent that is paid). That is - smallest plot, entry room, the computer, power supply, and the necessary rooms for both (and maybe a meeting room) at the very least.
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I'm sure it is fun to be the one guy in a large group that actually gets to build that big base.
Meanwhile everyone else has to support the base that one member (or at least a small number of sg members) gets to have fun building.
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One of the last times I was asked to join a supergroup, the person that asked me was rather rude. I knew how to shut that down. I told him that I would join if I could have base editing privledges. You can bet he didn't send me an invite - the gaul of me expecting that I could customize a base that I was giving prestige to!
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Of course, since I have so many characters. It is debateble if any of my characters should be able to have a base with functionality. Obviously, since the game has the option of allowing you to make a large # of characters - I should limit myself to one and join a large supergroup that someone else has created so that I can be in a fully functional base. [I really like being able to make a bunch of characters, but on some levels it is very frustrating. Having a bunch of charaters keeps the game intresting. I get bored I can just switch to another char.]
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So part of the problem with the bases has to do with the struture and mechanics of supergroups.
I think that there should be a way to post ads for supergropu members in game. A registry of supergroups that lists the supergroup info would be nice. The option to apply to a supergroup through this registry. The option of accepting new members through this method would be nice.
It is hard to hunt down a sg that fits with a theme. You have to just take what sg happens to invite you when you both are on, try to start one and hope you can get people to join, or not be in an sg at all.
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All this said - It is just to make you think. (which I know you do alot of already - because I can see the end result)
I love the game.
I have joined some sg's just to help them out and to give them what prestige I make while when I happen to play that char.
I appreciate the hard work that the CoH/CoV team puts into this game.
Keep up the good work - even though I get frustrated with what the staff ends up doing from time to time, it's only because I love the game that I take the extra time to criticize (sorry I'm too tired and can't spell at this point) it.
You small groups should stop whining... a three man group isnt an SG its a TEAM!! A real SG should hit memeber cap asap... ours, the Nightspawn VG on liberty almost has a fully functional base. We have 2 teleporters, a med bay, a vault, enough energy/control to run everything AND we have almost enough saved up to buy a vault. One raid teleporter away from being raidable! To keep a Healthy SG community the BIG guilds usualy partake in guild versus guild wars. Smaller guilds usualy still exist in all games but they are just community groups. I think the Devs did a GREAT job setting up the GvG system, It allows guilds who WANT to be great to make war, and guilds who just wanna hang cant. Small groups should not benefit as much as large groups, not even for the PvE effects because honestly they havn't worked for it like our larger SG has.
Let me ask people in the large groups 50-75 people this one question? How many of your SG mates do you know? To me, a Super Group is a collection of FRIENDS.. even if they don't like it (Wolverine and Cyclops for instance). I've been in huge guilds in other MMOs, I don't like not knowing more then half the guild and only know them as one because they have the group name under theirs.
Kyle
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It allows guilds who WANT to be great to make war
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Wars not make one great.
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To me, a Super Group is a collection of FRIENDS..
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My SG IS a collection of friends. we help eachother out when we need help and support the new members who enter our guild. The CORE of our guild, the highest ranking members stay on a private ventrilo server and just hang. We support the other guildmembers in thier activities and draw support (and prestige) from them. A Supergroup is a COMMUNITY communities have seperate, intertwined, groups of firends and enemies inside of them. This is how our SG opperates, and apparently IT WORKS because we arn't having ANY problems building up our base to an acceptable level. We WORK for it and our base belongs to our COMMUNITY. These smaller groups of friends should be a TEAM, not a supergroup. I think when apartments are realeased it will convince these tiny SGs to disband, turning them into groups of friends with apartments.
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Right now, there's a real good reason to convincelower-level newcomers to join your SG - even give them "signing bonusses" of a few thousand infamy, say - because the amount of prestige they will earn for the group, by "living in SG mode" until they hit level 25, can be HUGE.
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100K by lvl 25 is what I made starting in an SG at level 2. 40K of that after lvl 20.
My scrapper earned 100K between levels 32 (when Prestige was implemented) and 36 (now).
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I averaged about 100k per level. Sitting at level 35 and have just shy of 360k prestige earned. But that was pretty serious hardcore prestige earning, never leaving SG mode, zipping through many many newspaper missions for quick prestige gain, etc.
Formerly "Back Alley Brawler"
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Let me ask people in the large groups 50-75 people this one question? How many of your SG mates do you know? To me, a Super Group is a collection of FRIENDS.. even if they don't like it (Wolverine and Cyclops for instance). I've been in huge guilds in other MMOs, I don't like not knowing more then half the guild and only know them as one because they have the group name under theirs.
Kyle
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kind of my sentiments... there are lower level people I never have any dealings with.
Logged on to one of my CoH toons yesterday. Within 10 minutes of logging in I got at least 5-6 SG invites.
I would not want to join a group I know nothing about. I also wouldnt want to be part of a group that would just invite anyone off the street just because they are unattached.
But thats where bases have put us. Its all about warm bodies adding to the prestige total now. Not teams or loyalty or commeraderie.
Personally, I think a 75 member group is just too big... I really think stuff should be based on maybe 20 members. That would give you about 10 active people on at a time.
To bring up the comic analogy again, most super groups were about 6-7 people tops. Even if they had a huge memebership, there were never more than about 6 people on the team.
I mean even freedom phlanx is just 5 people...and Lord recluse has a small team too... everyone else is just a lackey.
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You small groups should stop whining... a three man group isnt an SG its a TEAM!! A real SG should hit memeber cap asap...
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Small groups should not benefit as much as large groups, not even for the PvE effects because honestly they havn't worked for it like our larger SG has.
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What a load of arrogant, elitist BS. A "real SG" has to be at the member cap? You think you're somehow "better" than me because your SG is full of 74 other people you don't know?
Duskshadow - L50 kinetic/electric defender
Akhenaten - L35 spines/regen scrapper
Quantum Anomaly - L36 robots/traps mastermind
Culture Shock - L24 dark/fire brute
Earbasher - L20 sonic/kinetic corruptor
Protector
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You small groups should stop whining. A real SG should hit memeber cap asap.
Small groups should not benefit as much as large groups, not even for the PvE effects because honestly they havn't worked for it like our larger SG has.
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So many things wrong here, where to start? 
I'm assuming you have base edit capabilities as part of a large SG. Give them up and try to join a new SG, let a little reality enter your world. Unless you are suggesting that nobody should start playing this game unless they join an exiting large SG. Hear that people who just bought COH/COV? No base for you, join one. Very sad.
Almost all groups are complaining, small-medium-and large. Small groups live with the cost daily, so for them, it's an ongoing drudge. Where is the fun in that? Your solution is to quit and join a new large SG. You first. Leave behind all you've worked for, and start over. It's not an easy thing to do.
You say little groups haven't worked for it? I'm sure that somewhere in that twisted sentence what you meant to say is lost, because what you said is pure lunacy. Small groups usually work harder trying to achieve the same goals as larger groups, without succumbing to the constant broadcasting to allow any newbie into their group just to use them as prestige miners.
Nowhere has it been stated, "Must be part of a med-large SG to fully participate in base functions." Wait, Statesman made that exact statement at the beginning of this thread. Funny, didn't see that on the box.
My small SG has porters and craft tables, took a heck of a lot of work, but we are there. Raid level? Never. But its working for us, just slower.
My suggestion? Give everyone the big and small useless rooms for free, then we could call them apartments. SG's could give each person a room, not wait until the next update. Base raid? Nope, but a personal area to modify, sure. Don't add power, and no rent.
Eventually, the SG would have money to build real items, but until then, a huge number of people could use the editor without destroying anything. Use increasing prestige to increase the footprint. Wonderful! This doesn't solve the massive buildup of salvage, but so what? Sell it to SGs that need a certain type. With no power, no rent. Enjoy.
Oh, and the massive programming needed to fix this? Change the cost in the editor to zero for non-functional rooms. How hard would that be? Set Variable RoomCost=0? Come on! 
I say small groups should keep whining!
If they don't keep dev attention then these changes that are coming "soon" won't happen ever...look at Skills...or so many of the tweaks an changes that have been "soon" 'd 
Agreed! Smaller groups need to be the most vocal here.
If you have a large SG, and are unsatisfied with the smallest plot and the smallest rooms available, then I can understand your gripe. Especially if you are interested in PvP.
I couldn't care less about raids and Items of Power. I want the small base plot with the rooms that I need to enjoy my PvE experience. In addition to cheapening the decorative room costs, I think the decorative items need to be cheapened somewhat as well.
As to this attitude that "larger groups work harder for it", give me a freaking break. Leader of huge, 75-member group logs off in the evening. The prestige level for the group is at 1 million. The next evening, he logs on to find that it's at 1.2 million. Whoopie! We gained 200k, and I didn't have to do anything to get it. Now, Me, leader of small SG, logs on to find no change in prestige. And so I go back to grinding to help my group. The average prestige per player in an SG is the only measure to determine "how hard a group is working". By that measure, an 8-player team with a functional base has worked much harder than a 50-player team with one.
"...freedom isn't a commodity to compromise." -- Captain America, New Avengers #21
Guide to Base Teleporters
Thank you, sir.
My SG is a bunch of regulars, but we don't really do active recruiting. This will help a bunch.
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I have to agree. Why does an SG need to be "large"?
But then, why does one have to be small?
I think, that whole problem is, it shouldn't make a difference.
I do think that prestige should belong to the individual hero, not the SG. Or split it. A guy who leaves an Sg for one reason or another should not leave with nothing.
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I know the feeling, myself, wife and someone else that I got to join a particular SG, left for reasons I will not post and formed a small 6 man SG. We left behind with the original group, 950K in prestige (my wife and I were the only ones at the time who had gone 1-40 in that group and were the only 40's). We also had one alt in the group (mine was 32 and the wives was 20). We are now starting from scratch (around 350K saved up), its too bad I couldn't keep what I earned in the other group, I would have 1.3 mil.
Yeah... my group is basically defunct. Everyones free month is running out this week and only those that already had CoH accounts are renewing.
So we wont really have enough people to the CoP or base raids.
If I just quit, then I am out over 400K prestige and the infamy that I could have had instead.
If some of us just continue on all we will get is an inferior med bay and some transporters we dont really need since CoV is really easy to get around in. We would have to keep giving up personal infamy to pay the rent on something that that useful.
If base building was faster and the CoP had been operational at launch , I think more people would have continued on. Bases were one of the reasons they signed up for the game in the first place.
The below post has to be the best post I've seen so far in how to solve the base "problem". I'm in a 3 person SG. We each have 1 Alt for a total of 6 "players" In real life, we actually see each other (we work together), eat lunch or dinner together, talk to each other, wow, just like real people. We want our own small base. We do NOT want to participate in PvP only PvE. We really don't want to invite other people (sorry, but we all bought the game to have fun together). We all have the Architect ability. I really like the idea of when choosing base creation, you are given the choice between PvP or PvE. This would then scale the cost of items for your group. The ability to sell salvage is also a great idea.
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Right now a lot of posts have talked about the high Prestige cost of Base items - and that they're bringing in a ton of Salvage but can't really do anything about it.
Bases, as they currently stand, really focus on mid and large sized groups earning Prestige - so the complaints have a good point. We're trying to work something out so that a smaller group can get something useful quickly - and also put Salvage to use! Can't promise a timeline, but we are working on it.
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Yes, please!
I would so welcome a way for those of us who never, ever plan to try to get any Items of Power or do any kind of SG PvP at all (and are really too small to, even if we actually wanted to) to still be able to build a nice functional Base.
We have a very small SG (a dozen members or so), and we're all on at wildly different times so there are never really more than 2 or 3 of us on at any one time. We team up together quite a bit, but the groups are small (obviously) and any kind of Base Raiding is out of the question (if we wanted to, which we don't).
So far, with all of us working our butts off to earn as much Prestige as possible, we have managed to create a Base with the following:
An Entry Room (there by default)
An Infirmary (non-functional)
An Energy Room (empty)
We are half way towards being able to afford to place a Control Room (100,000), but then we'll still be 250,000 Prestige away from having a Power Source, and then after that we'll need (if I understand it correctly), a Computer and a Database as well.
We are building the smallest/cheapest versions of everything, and placing no decorative items at all at this point. All we're really trying to do at this point is get a minimal functioning Infirmary.
We're getting lots of Salvage, but we can't do anything with it, and we're a very long way from being able to actually place a Workshop and Work Tables.
I think I understand why (for Raid/PvP purposes) you've set the prices so high (to try to keep SG's from immediately being able to build Uber-Bases), but it's keeping us smaller SG's from being able to enjoy the new Base feature at all.
Ideally, I'd like to be able to create our Base, up front, as either PvP or PvE-only, and have the prices be set accordingly (being dramatically lower for PvE-only).
If the SG ever grew, and for whatever reason we actually decided that we wanted to do Raiding, we would need to sell everything back and then go back and recreate the Base as PvP.
There shouldn't be any way for people to exploit this, since you sell back for the same price you buy for. So, while we would get all of our Prestige back (at PvE prices), when we made our PvP Base, we wouldn't have any unfair advantage over SG's that went PvP to start with.
Maybe it would also be possible to sell Salvage for Prestige? That way when you're trying to get your Base started, like we are (and can't even think about doing Crafting yet), you could use all of that dropped Salvage to boost your Prestige and actually be able to build more of your Base.
Just some thoughts. Thanks for listening, and looking into the problem!
Silas Dark
D.E.F.E.N.S.E. Incorporated
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I would be most interested to know what the metrics are on supergroups in both CoV and CoH. What's the average size of a SG? What's the average number of accounts in each supergroup (unique accounts, rather than characters)? How active is the average supergroup? What constitutes a medium and large supergroup? Basically, what were the base assumptions used in determining where and how to set the costs associated with base building?
I lead a supergroup of about 35 people. On average we have about 10-12 people playing during the evening. In the year that I've been leading the supergroup, we have, on several occasions, discussed allowing our group to grow more. During every discussion there was a unanimous decision to remain small, to retain that feeling of intimacy and familiarity within the group. When we get to a point where I don't know every member in my supergroup, we've grown too large. As it is, I have to make a special effort during my brief gameplay window to stay in contact and play with all my members. They want to be involved in the SG, in the community that we form, and I want them to be happy in the game. One thing I absolutely do not want is to become so large that new members see us veterans as benevolent benefactors who sweep down from time to time to team with them, gain them a few levels, or hand out infamy like Santa Claus. I also do not want any of my members to feel like prestige miners. Nobody wants to feel like a cog, everybody wants to make a perceivable mark in their community. In a smaller supergroup, it's a lot easier to feel significant than in a huge, sprawling, impersonal group. Heck, even in a supergroup of only 35 people, I have to work hard to bring people together and retain that sense of closeness we had as a group of 15.
There are several problem I see with the bases and the whole base/base raid system, but let me just touch on a few points.
1) Lower the cost of basic functional items. Things like control, power, teleportation devices, and decorative rooms are way too expensive for most small and medium groups. Let us have a way to get these things up quickly and let us do something with our bases. Keep the costs of defensive weaponry, vaults, secure rooms, etc. high if need be, they are plenty high as it is (if not too high for even my SG). This will give smaller SG's a chance to build a base that can do something useful and give them a good platform to start saving for a raidable base if desired without having to scrape and claw right from the start.
2) Fix the prestige bug when teaming. Why do I get more prestige per mob when soloing than I do in a team (by double or triple)? I get an xp multiplier when in a team, why not a prestige multiplier when in a team with people who are in SG mode? Smaller SG's who team together frequently would earn more prestige and not be penalized for teaming together all the time. While you're at it, increase the amount of prestige doled out. If you follow suggestion 1, then you'd only have to increase it by a little, otherwise a whole lot.
3) Let there be different levels for base editing. There are a lot of people who would like to experience base editting, but allowing architects is an all-or-nothing affair. I wouldn't mind letting people add decorative items here and there, we earn enough prestige for that, but having many people able to add entire rooms, functional items, and the like would likely break our bank in a hurry. Split the permission system so that people can be allowed to add only decorative items and the other level would have the full control architects enjoy now. It would bring more people into the base editing experience and SG leaders wouldn't have to worry about people going hog wild buying expensive items and rearranging the base. Heck, lower the cost of decorative items by a ton. They don't do anything so let them be dirt cheap and make it a non-issue how many you add.
My primary concern with the bases is for PvE, but there are those in my supergroup who would rather not abandon their friends and join a huge SG just to participate in raids. They'll stay with us and go without the experience. I'd rather not tell them they have to join a larger SG, but right now I can only tell them that we won't be able to do that for a while because building up a base to raid readiness takes a metric [censored]-ton of prestige and our SG just isn't bringing it in that fast, despite everyone playing in SG mode as often as they can.
If you take bases and raiding out of CoV, you're taking a good chunk of the incentive out of CoV entirely. Without the bases, CoV is just reskinned CoH (but that's a discussion for another time).
Excellent news! my small SG/VG (small group of rl friends with jobs and families) has been playing daily since CoV hit and we have only managed to earn around 300,000 prestige. Kind of demoralizing.
Will we be able to 'convert' the base we already have to the new one? Honestly, I wish I hadn't bought it, but everyone was very excited.....