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But as for all the rest of you Im standing by my statement that a 5 man TEAM is not a full GROUP
[/ QUOTE ]lol where do you people come up with this stuff.
Small Group :"A collection of three to twelve people that assemble for a specific purpose." That's the definition of a small group.
When I hangout with 5 or 6 of my friends , I'm hanging out with a GROUP of friends ... not a team.
November managed to say exactly what I have been saying. I dont have a PROBLEM with small SGs... I just dont like them complaining about not being able to buy a SG base. The PvE content of the SG base is almost worthless. My guild has ress rings and teleport pads. They DONT HELP AT ALL. Infact its allot easier to ress at the hospital than the base (no waiting for you to heal up and gain end.) Then theres the teleporters... the only thing they are good for is jumping from Sharkhead or nerva to somwhere in the mercy-cuap string (which arnt all connected via rouge islands ferry.) Other than SG missions (which you small 5 man groups will have ALLOT of trouble with) pve content of guild bases is useless. Start complaining about building a base and start complaining about HAVING SOMETHING TO BUILD.
Workshops are another matter entierly. They are used for making pvp objects and teleporters... salvage is so abundant its practicly worthless.
I dont have a problem with small SGs just please stop complaining about not being able to build a base and then turn around and say you want a base for the PvE features.
THERE ARE NO HELPFULL PVE FEATURES!!! I can not stress this enough. The bases, at the moment, are basicly PvP launch pads. Anyone who actualy has a base can also stress how poorly the bases actualy help your pve experiance.... Dont get me wrong, I WANT PvE features, so complain about the lack of them. DONT COMPLAIN ABOUT THE LACK OF A BASE IF YOUR NOT INTERESTED IN PVP BECAUSE CURRENTLY BASES ARE DEAD AS FAR A PVE IS CONCERNED.
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THERE ARE NO HELPFULL PVE FEATURES!!!
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I'm sorry but that's ridiculous.
-The Black Scorpion Task Force
-The Cathedral of Pain trial which I /believe/ can be completed without placing the IoP and opening yourself up to raiding which means one can use the TF purely for PvE content
-The base teleporters (incredibly useful for lowlevel members to reach higher level members in other zones to team up)
-Machines that sell inspirations and buy them too. Where else can you sell inspirations?
-Base medbays which allow you to go to the base instead of the hospital. Now granted, the most important use for this is to avoid having to go to a hospital in a PvP zone. but if you like to PvE in a PvP zone this can be a major lifesaver
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Anyone who actualy has a base can also stress how poorly the bases actualy help your pve experiance....
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I have a base and disagree so "anyone" can't tell you that.
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DONT COMPLAIN ABOUT THE LACK OF A BASE IF YOUR NOT INTERESTED IN PVP BECAUSE CURRENTLY BASES ARE DEAD AS FAR A PVE IS CONCERNED.
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It's in ALL CAPS it must be true!
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I *like* having a progression on my base. I like coming in every couple of days and seeing something new. It's cool to see progress. 36 million is enough so that quite a lot of people would never need any more than that.
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Earlier posts had already said that 36mil is "a bit much" and suggested that maybe 500k to start with a membership bonus of 50-100k/member (I assume for the first 15 members, like the current member bonus) would be more reasonable. Basically start you out with enough to build a functional base, if only just barely, and then the progression would be in making it better rather than just making it do something in the first place. How do you feel about having bases start out at that level?
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Just giving us all 36million Prestige is like starting every character at level 20. Those first 20 levels aren't perfect, I certainly wouldn't mind having a travel power for them, but I don't want to skip them completely. Superbases are the same way, the system needs some tweaking, but the early stages shouldn't completely go away.
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But the current base system is like requiring a character to get to level 20 before they get their first power, which is even worse than starting characters at level 20 under the current power progression would be. A base cannot do *anything* except look pretty until you've sunk 735k into it (and all that gets you is a work table to make stuff from salvage that you can't do anything useful with until you spend another couple hundred k on buying the appropriate rooms and placement). For a small sg, that means a month or two (if not longer) of grinding for prestige while their base does nothing at all, much less anything useful.
I agree with you that progression is nice, but you can have a progression without the period of uselessness at the start. Even a level 1 character has two powers, after all.
Now before I start, I want to make it clear I understand everyone's experiences are subjective, everyone plays different amounts, etc. etc. But:
My SG is composed of four RL friends and our alts. That's it. I think we have seven toons in it total currently. We play an hour or two a night, not always the same nights, sometimes more on weekends. Our highest toon of any of us is 25, and we've all been playing since beta. We're pretty much right slap bang in the middle of the "casual players" category.
So far we have a nicely decorated entrance room, a workshop with desk, and an empty control room. And about 125k or so prestige saved up. It's been what, a month and a half tops, since release? And we're what, a quarter, halfway to a functional base? I really can't see the problem.
I intend to be playing CoX for a long time. Been over a year and a half so far, and still loving it. Another year down the line, and you can bet that'll be one lovely base. Not the hugest thing in the world, obviously, but then we're only ever gonna have 4 (maybe 5) people in it at anyone time. How big a base do we need?
I can't help but feel that the thirty-six million prestige given to us for testing in beta has spoiled a hell of a lot of people - we've all seen the wonderful things we can have and do, and it's hard to not expect to have them now. But I don't expect everything now. I'm quite happy to 'earn' my base, a little bit at a time. I'll get much more satisfaction from it that way. Though again, I know I don't speak for everyone.
On the other hand, November does bring up a very good point. While I have no objections to working for my base, I do object to working for a base that does nothing worthwhile. Why have a medicenter if all it does is 25% of what the hospital does for free, for eveyone? How the hell is that beneficial? The zone teleporter is nice, but again, if it just dumps you into a load of enemies from a great height, that's not my idea of useful.
I don't have a problem with the idea of working for a functional base. If it takes several months, that's fine. I've been playing for eighteen and counting. I was going to be playing for those future months anyway. If I can get even more stuff for doing so, where's the downside? Naturally, I'd expect what I get after a multiple month wait to be something appropriate to that wait, and hopefully those kind of issues will be addressed. And my comments don't apply to decorative bases - if you purely want a base that you can hang out in, RP in, socialise in, whatever, then yeah, I don't see why you should have to wait several months for that - decorative rooms should be a hell of a lot cheaper. Certainly the decorations within them are cheap enough to be afforded by anyone with little concern for the old bank balance.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Psychoti
"....so I headbutted the blind chick."
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[ cruise / casual-tempest.net / transference.org / xenogamous.com / wytedragon.net / quantam sufficit ]
SG Size:
I've seen some very good posts on what constitutes team sizes, I wish the Dev's would send us "their" impression; it might help explain Statesman's comment about bases being primarily for Med & Large teams. And I hope he only meant for raids, not the bases in general. Ive noticed that he only sends out about 10 posts a month, and they are very short on content. Hed make a great politician, allowing people to infer his meaning.
Base vs. apartments:
I don't think anyone who bought COV should have to 'wait" for apartments. As I stated earlier, an SG base with multiple rooms could be an apartment, so lower the cost for display only rooms. Create an option to allow everyone in. Someone suggested a special door option for display base entry versus raid bases, sounds complicated to code, but its a great idea! That is something that makes these forums great.
Starting Prestige:
I think the $36 mil is too much starting base prestige, and I agree it is probably where many people developed their sense of loss for base building from beta, including myself. But giving an amount at the creation of an SG? Why not? Make it like a cape mission, earn the SG or get a loan to start building it. Change rent into a payback on the loan for people who only want a display base. That way, people can immediately start building, and eventually they pay back expenses. As for the amount, that is a tough call.
Teleporter malfunction:
If porters dont work like they used to, or not in a way that is conducive to game play, everyone should get on the same agenda, and have the devs improve them. Maybe have new porters, like one that goes to the active mission door. Create a porter that just changes your city, so when you leave the base through the portal, you enter your new target city portal even though you entered in a different city portal. Create a medic bay that fully heals, etc.
Feedback:
This is supposed to be a thread about base building. I read a huge rant about why small SGs dont need a base. There was probably some good information there, but it was all clouded with personal opinions of small SGs and attacks and psychic guesses at to what small SGs want. A waste. Create a new thread what I hate about the world. Keep this on base building, like where are the bar stools? or where are all the cool computer terminals I see in the missions?
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. Ive noticed that he only sends out about 10 posts a month, and they are very short on content. Hed make a great politician, allowing people to infer his meaning.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. He is the king of vague.
What will happen is that things will stay as they are of months. People will still have issues and say how everyone is giving up on bases. Then -- lets not call them fanbois, lets just say Cryptic Apologists -- will wave this post in everyones face and say we just need to be patient, Jack is working on it and CARES. Then after a few more months Jack will unveil his plan. He has determined that the solution to the salvage issue -- and to make things more FUN! -- is to make stuff cost 3X as much salvage. That way we wont have so much sitting around unused.
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. Ive noticed that he only sends out about 10 posts a month, and they are very short on content. Hed make a great politician, allowing people to infer his meaning.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. He is the king of vague.
What will happen is that things will stay as they are of months. People will still have issues and say how everyone is giving up on bases. Then -- lets not call them fanbois, lets just say Cryptic Apologists -- will wave this post in everyones face and say we just need to be patient, Jack is working on it and CARES. Then after a few more months Jack will unveil his plan. He has determined that the solution to the salvage issue -- and to make things more FUN! -- is to make stuff cost 3X as much salvage. That way we wont have so much sitting around unused.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually what will be done is salvage drops will be decreased by 10X this way people will not hit the salvage max before they are able to afford a base with working tables.
I don't mind That the light is at the end of the tunnel. Just let me be able to see the light.
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But thats where bases have put us. Its all about warm bodies adding to the prestige total now. Not teams or loyalty or commeraderie.
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So true! I'm in an SG that would have four regular players on a good day (and there hasn't been a good day in a long time). I find myself begging people who seldom play to just join the SG and not quit, just so I can have the 20K bonus. Lame.
I've been saving and saving for function, but based on this thread it doesn't sound like there's much function to be had. Maybe I should keep wasting my money on decarations.
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Titans have had over 60 members over the years... the Fantastic "Four" - has included everyone from Spiderman to the their Mailman as 'official' members - The New Warriors ... dunno it's not a classic title so not one I read - New Mutants have had an entire schools worth.
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I gotta stop you right there.
First of all, the Titans have never had 60 members all at once. An sg with 60 members over its history, but a revolving door that leaves them with only < 10 members at any given time, is still a small SG.
Secondly, Spider-Man was certainly not ever a member of the FF. Oh, wait, you're talking about the "New" Fantastic Four that lasted like 3 issues. Yeah...that doesn't count. The FF has had a rotating cast of only 11 heroes, and only 4 at any given time.
And yeah, New Warriors actually got pretty bloated around vol. 1 #50 IIRC. But it never exceeded 20 members, I'm sure.
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For the old TV series, "Spiderman and his Mazing Friends", the trio of Spiderman, Iceman, and Firestar had a pretty well-equipped apartment, actually. SG Mission Computer in the living room, at the very least.
[/ QUOTE ]
Only because they saved Tony Stark from the Beetle, true believer.
Great to hear States has us smaller VG's in mind. I hope however, the SG size qualifying for this ...whatever.. is based in global names for characters in the VG. Becasue we are all altaholics in my VG, soooo.... keep it in mind States.
Pinnacle & Virtue:
A bunch of Heroes - Alpha Team, Legion of Order.
A bunch of Villains -Black Citadel , Pinnache.
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the Fantastic "Four" - has included everyone from Spiderman to the their Mailman as 'official' members
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I don't count "crossovers" as "being a full-fledged member". SGs team with non-SG heroes all the time, in comics and in COH/V.
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Actually, official members of the Fantastic Four have included Wolverine, She-Hulk, Ant-Man, Spider-man, among others. She-Hulk took Thing's place for a while after the Secret Wars. Wolverine, Spider-man, Ghost Rider, and Dr. Strange took the place of the entire Fantastic Four for a while as the "New Fantastic Four". Ant-man joined the team for a period when Reed was thought to be dead. Even Namor was a member for a while.
Still, even with all of that, there have only been a total of 11 or 12 members, and never more than 4 at a time. Sometimes, there were as few as 3 members in the Fantastic Four. Rather like the Teen Titans, who have never really had more than 6 or 7 on the team at a time. Unless, of course, you count issues where they had old titans return for an issue.
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If you only want a small SG - then keep in mind that Batman, although a singular hero - is both insanely wealthy and has had years to build that ultra cool base. In the early days the batcave was nothing more than an underground garage.
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Batman (even the Dynamic Duo together), I don't count as an SG.
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Batman, Robin, Nightwing, Batgirl, Oracle, Azrial, Huntress (not full time), Spoiler (now deceased). Sounds like a supergroup to me.
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Spiderman ... has a closet. Keep it in perspective.
[/ QUOTE ]
For the old TV series, "Spiderman and his Mazing Friends", the trio of Spiderman, Iceman, and Firestar had a pretty well-equipped apartment, actually. SG Mission Computer in the living room, at the very least.
[/ QUOTE ]
Spider-man has also been members of a number of super-groups. He has been a member of the Fantastic Four, and is still friends with Johnny Storm. He is still a reserve member of the Avengers. He keeps a locker at both places and has full access to training facilities of the Avengers.
As such, he has no need for a headquarters of his own. After all, why pay the massive electric bill all bases always accur when somebody else will pay it for you? Besides, do you know how hard it is to get phone and electric in the name of Mr. S. Man? Definately a head-ache in the making....
Super Reflexes - The New Squishy
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Batman, Robin, Nightwing, Batgirl, Oracle, Azrial, Huntress (not full time), Spoiler (now deceased). Sounds like a supergroup to me.
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No. They're not a group - they don't all get unlimited access to the Batcave.
Indeed, Azrial is LOCKED OUT, most or all of the time. Nightwing IS Robin ... grown up. (One can consider "beign robin" to be "being trained to be a costumed vigilante"; indeed, I'm waiting for Batman to pick a Robin that actually has some sort of superpower ...!) Batgirl isn't part of the Dynamic Duo, she's just an ally with a similar theme. Likewise for Huntress. Oracle I don't know, but I doubt he's any more "on the in" than Batgirl is.
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Batman, Robin, Nightwing, Batgirl, Oracle, Azrial, Huntress (not full time), Spoiler (now deceased). Sounds like a supergroup to me.
[/ QUOTE ]
No. They're not a group - they don't all get unlimited access to the Batcave.
Indeed, Azrial is LOCKED OUT, most or all of the time. Nightwing IS Robin ... grown up. (One can consider "beign robin" to be "being trained to be a costumed vigilante"; indeed, I'm waiting for Batman to pick a Robin that actually has some sort of superpower ...!) Batgirl isn't part of the Dynamic Duo, she's just an ally with a similar theme. Likewise for Huntress. Oracle I don't know, but I doubt he's any more "on the in" than Batgirl is.
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The only thing you have right, really, is Azrial. At one point, he was Batman's replacement. I have not seen much of him lately, though. He got his own book and that was the last I really heard of him with the exception of the War Games story.
Nightwing is the first Robin all grown up. There have been 4 (or 5, if you count the time Tim Drake quit and came back), two of which have died. So there is both a Nightwing and a Robin. Both Nightwing and Robin have full access to the Batcave. Neither overly use it, though they both still tie into the Batcave computer database on a regular basis.
Spoiler also became Robin for a while, when Drake (Robin 3) quit. She was eventually killed during the War Games story. Before her death, she had full access to the Batcave.
Oracle was the original Batgirl and is completely in the know. She is the one that keeps communication between all of the bats, even doing work for the JLA. That said, one could say she is more in the know that even Captian Pointy-ears, himself. She has had full access to the Batcave since her time as the original Batgirl.
The current Batgirl actually spends more time teaming with the current Robin, but she is training under Oracle and Batman. Batman actually gave her the costume she wears and endorses her as an official bat-brat, something he did not do for the original (at first), or many others. Her goal is to actually take Batman's place eventually. I am not sure how much access she has to the Batcave, though. They generally show her either at Oracle's or her own place. But both places tie into the Batcave's mainframe.
The Huntress.. Okay, you got me there. The Huntress has no access to the Batcave and I do not think she ever really has.
Super Reflexes - The New Squishy
Azrael was a replacement for Batman, so he wasn't there at the same time much. Spoiler/Robin, Tim/Robin, Jason/Robin were not active at the same time. Nightwing and Batgirl mainly just come to visit, they don't use it as much as the active Robin and Batman. So really, the Batcave is only used significantly by two people at any given time.
That's not a supergroup, that's a duo. The devs are adding Hideouts to the game later. The devs said Hideouts will be much better suited to 1 or 2 players.
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Azrael was a replacement for Batman, so he wasn't there at the same time much. Spoiler/Robin, Tim/Robin, Jason/Robin were not active at the same time. Nightwing and Batgirl mainly just come to visit, they don't use it as much as the active Robin and Batman. So really, the Batcave is only used significantly by two people at any given time.
That's not a supergroup, that's a duo. The devs are adding Hideouts to the game later. The devs said Hideouts will be much better suited to 1 or 2 players.
[/ QUOTE ]
Batman, Nightwing, Batgirl, Robin, and Oracle. And Spoiler before she died. Just because more than one person has never been active as Robin at the same time does not mean you can discount Robin all together.
Super Reflexes - The New Squishy
Nightwing and Oracle have their own places, and Batgirl and Spoiler aren't there nearly as much as Robin.
I can easily discount them. They're visiting, not using it as a base. At any given time, there are only 2 heroes using the Batcave as their base of operations. That's a Hideout, not a Superbase.
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They're visiting, not using it as a base. At any given time, there are only 2 heroes using the Batcave as their base of operations.
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What's really going on with all the Batman-related characters is: there's two or more TINY supergroups, who all have a COALITION together, and have set base entry permissions to allow coalition members to stop by. 
[ QUOTE ]
Nightwing and Oracle have their own places, and Batgirl and Spoiler aren't there nearly as much as Robin.
I can easily discount them. They're visiting, not using it as a base. At any given time, there are only 2 heroes using the Batcave as their base of operations. That's a Hideout, not a Superbase.
[/ QUOTE ]
By your definition, you have excluded that vast majourity of groups in comic books. After all, most majour heroes have their own base of operations and only use their affilated group bases for group missions and such.
JLA? Every member of the JLA has their own place aside from the JLA headquarters. Hell, the JLA headquarters, until recently was in space (their old satalite) or on the moon. Everybody commutes on that one.
Avengers? There might be a member or two that stay at the base, the the vast majourity center themselves out of other places. A lot of them do not even live in the New York area where the Avengers mansion is.
You are confusing rate of use with ability to use. It is not about how often people use a base. It is about whether they use it at all or not.
Every member of the gloom brigade (bat-brats) access the cave semi-regularly. They wear uniforms that are centered around a specific theme. And, like most of the bigger supergroups in existance, they all center themselves out of differing areas.
By the way, most recently, Batgirl (number 2) has been at the Batcave more often than Robin (3). And Spoiler almost lived there when she was Robin. (She actually had a house and a mother, but was not really there much)
Super Reflexes - The New Squishy
Your logic is flawed.
Green Arrow has his own base, but he uses the JLA tower for certain things. Oracle doesn't use the Batcave for anything. Oracle uses the Batcave in the same way that I use my brother's house. I visit, but I don't live there and I'm not a member of the housefhold by any useful definition.
Spoiler was only Robin when Tim Drake wasn't Robin. Yes, she counts, but only during the time that Tim Drake doesn't count.
It's like trying to say that the Fantastic Four is a large Supergroup because they've had dozens of members. No, at any given time they've had 4. That means that their total hours of membership is exactly the same as a group that's been around the same amount of time and had the same 4 people the entire time. The Fantastic Four is not a medium sized group, they're a small group. The Batcave doesn't service a Supergroup, it services 2 or 3 people and others come to visit.
The Batcave is not a Superbase. It is a Hideout. It is *exactly* what people are thinking of when they ask for hideouts. Yeah, Batman has a lot of friends. That doesn't change the fact that the Hideout system is being designed to serve the functions of the Batcave, and Superbases are being designed around larger groups.
[ QUOTE ]
Your logic is flawed.
Green Arrow has his own base, but he uses the JLA tower for certain things. Oracle doesn't use the Batcave for anything. Oracle uses the Batcave in the same way that I use my brother's house. I visit, but I don't live there and I'm not a member of the housefhold by any useful definition.
Spoiler was only Robin when Tim Drake wasn't Robin. Yes, she counts, but only during the time that Tim Drake doesn't count.
It's like trying to say that the Fantastic Four is a large Supergroup because they've had dozens of members. No, at any given time they've had 4. That means that their total hours of membership is exactly the same as a group that's been around the same amount of time and had the same 4 people the entire time. The Fantastic Four is not a medium sized group, they're a small group. The Batcave doesn't service a Supergroup, it services 2 or 3 people and others come to visit.
The Batcave is not a Superbase. It is a Hideout. It is *exactly* what people are thinking of when they ask for hideouts. Yeah, Batman has a lot of friends. That doesn't change the fact that the Hideout system is being designed to serve the functions of the Batcave, and Superbases are being designed around larger groups.
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Okay, so just because only Batman, Nightwing, Robin, and Batgirl base out of it, it is not a base? By that definition, the Baxter Building is a hideout, even though it is common knowledge that the Fantastic Four base out of it.
Super Reflexes - The New Squishy
Nightwing doesn't use it anymore. Batgirl and Robin use it less than Batman. That's 3, and only barely.
The only thing that doesn't fit in with CoH is that Batman is a hero with 2 sidekicks.
The point of this distinction is simple. Batman has a Hideout, the Batcave, and a Superbase, the JLA Watchtower. The Superbase system is designed to be closer to the Watchtower, and the Hideout system is being built to emulate the Batcave more.
Do you really want to consider the Bat family a supergroup? OK, sure. They're a tiny little supergroup. In that case, CoX is not going to provide anything that emulates the Batcave, since the SuperBase system in CoX doesn't emulate the Batcave very well.
I never asked for a Batcave in CoX. I just pointed out 3 things. 1: You do not need to have a huge group to have a base. 2: Super-heroes will often have a personal base of operations in addition to a group base of operations. 3: It is not a matter of how many use it on a day-to-day basis, rather a matter of how many it is there for.
I was merely arguing my point with the examples given. You singled on Batman, even though I also mentioned the Fantastic Four, the Avengers, and the Justice League. I
f you would rather, we could always use the Teen Titans. On average, 5 to 8 members at a time. They get a whole building to themselves, even though some of them already have bases of their own, multiple bases in some cases.
Super Reflexes - The New Squishy
I'm kind of completely and totally against the idea of "giving" SG's huge sums. I agree it'd be like starting your toon off with the option of being a lvl 20.
I think if they just based the cost of items on a reasonable model in the first place we would not have these issues.
1,500,000 for some of these rooms and items - that's insane. Sure we can do it - but what does it get me? Another PvP feature like a Mega-Monitor which is basically eye candy?? How much does it actually increase your defenses in a raid? And... if I'm not going to PvP why should I want one?
Sure the answer to many is - if you're not going to PvP - then ... don't buy it. Okay ... so then all SG Bases are for is eye candy and PvP. Something we've been told over and over again is not the case.
If you tell me that bases are not just for PvP - then include some non-PvP content for them... and make it something other than glorified eye candy. Make it of value and use to us.