Defense bonus in Power Pools

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As for changing the way defense works...eek. That's not really an option. There's simply too many things that would break...It's just not do-able.

As for why only S/L? Because in these powers, that simply made sense - and because of the prevalence of S/L damage throughout the game.

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Ok. Now we're getting somewhere. CAN'T change defense. Thank you for coming out and saying that. Now I can give up on that and hit other options:

Can we give the defense based sets a higher defense floor than other sets? say, 5% per power? So if I have all 6 defense giving powers from SR, my defense floor can NEVER go below 35%?

Or put a ceiling on ToHit buffs? Lower base accuracy for PvP to 50%?

Add regen to quickness, give Ice some damage resistance?

Statesman, there are lots of possibilities. You coming out and telling us what CAN'T be done is actually a great thing. So what about the rest of these options to fix the broken defense system that forces SR, FFers and Ice to be inferior to their counterparts?

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Stealth, Grant Invisibility, Invisibility,Combat Flight, Weave, Maneuvers, Vengeance, and Combat Jumping will grant a Defense bonus to Smashing and Lethal Attacks in addition to Melee and Ranged attacks.

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I appreciate the attempt to lessen the problem, but I hope the band-aid doesn't become the final solution. While this helps to alleviate the uselessness of the powers, this currently makes S/L damage even more unbalanced than it already is.

Please, change the Defense code to calculate the highest positional type and the highest damage type, and add them together, then remove the band-aids.

Also, in the meantime, please don't forget Steamy Mist, Shadow Fall, and possibly Fortitude (we still aren't sure how that one works).

Anyway, thank you for doing something about the useless powers.

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I'm glad that you're willing to admit this 'bug' nearly on your own, unlike the month or so where the change Innervating Field was completely shrugged off and those who showed you proof were called liars and worse, after which a half-truth or too slipped from CuppaJoe's mouth.

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They never said anyone was lying though. They said they were *MISTAKEN*. That is NOT the same as calling someone a liar.

And yes, I do appreciate the irony that they were mistaken about saying you guys were mistaken.

Fortitude is typed.

See Stargazer's post here

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Fire Ball vs Fortitude (3 +1 SOs)

404 activations
182 misses
54.95% hitrate

With that slotting, Fortitude has an effective def buff of around 20%. Small sample size, but enough for our purposes in this case.
It also clearly shows that Fortitude gives defense against AoE/Fire attacks.


Strike vs Focused Fighting (5 even SOs)
3035 activations
1467 hits
1568 misses
48.34%


Strike vs Focused Fighting (5 even SOs) + Fort (3 +1 SOs)
500 activations
249 hits
251 misses
49.80%

again the sample size is relatively small, but the effective defense of Fortitude with current slotting should be 15% at the very least, and we definately don't see that large of a difference between this test and the baseline test against just FF.

So, it seems pretty clear that FF and Fort do not stack, and since FF is Positional def... Well, that'd mean that Fortitude gives damage-Typed defense...

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I'm glad that you're willing to admit this 'bug' nearly on your own, unlike the month or so where the change Innervating Field was completely shrugged off and those who showed you proof were called liars and worse, after which a half-truth or too slipped from CuppaJoe's mouth.

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They never said anyone was lying though. They said they were *MISTAKEN*. That is NOT the same as calling someone a liar.

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That's the "or worse". Seriously, it was numbers coming up on his screen and 2nd grade math, and they told him he was mistaken.

As to 'liar', if his screenshots were wrong, I assume that would be the equivilant of a lie - something meant to decieve or give a wrong impression.

Oh, and Statesman? How much, exactly, Smashing and Lethal defense was added?

I know, logically, it should be the same amount as the ranged/melee amount. But then again, I'm losing my trust on logic right now.

Hi,

When a player has, for instance, a defense power or buff that defends against ranged and melee, it covers ALL damage that is either, even if it is untyped, toxic, or psy. Type, in this case, does not matter.

When a player has, for instance, a defense power or buff that defends against, for instance, smashing and lethal damage, it covers ALL psi damage, regardless of its position / axis.

In the former example, AoE damage is the big, gaping hole. In the later, the big gaping whole is, well everything that isn't smashing and lethal.

It's a kludgy system that, frankly, blows chunks. I mean BIG chunks. From January until recently, SR scrappers received minimal benefit from a bubbler unless the defense numbers from the bubbler topped those of the scrapper. The buffs did not stack with the scrapper's secondary. SR's defense is postional, FF's is type, and this tidbit about how defenses stack was mentioned nowhere in-game. That's the equivalent of, for instance, regen and recovery aura not stacking with IH and quick recovery because the regen powers aren't the right type. It's counter-intuitive garbage.

Maneuvers? Same deal. Maneuvers is defense against position. And, guess what? Bubblers have been told for over a year to get maneuvers to provide some self defense. Statesman ran it in his FF build. THAT's how undocumented their defense system is. How were players supposed to know that ... if Statesman himself didn't? He didn't realize maneuvers is pointless in Croatoa. With dispersion bubble up, maneuvers only gave defense against psi, toxic, and untyped. Huge chunks of the game have none of those types of damage. Useful? Maybe situationally. Worth running 24/7 with six slots? Ummmm ...

Oi.

Statesman, please, do something for the defenders. Say something about stealth-nerfing Enervating Field. Give a shout out to the bubblers who've been running maneuvers 24/7 since January ... even though it wasn't doing what we all expected it to. Just ... something.

Circeus points out that ice armour's wonked, and he gets a damn near instant dev response. Defenders point out that something's wonked and we either get nothin' or told we're lying. Just ... something. OK? Please?

Edit: OK, not "lying" but very, very "mistaken". 'Cause, you know, the rumour about EF getting nerfed has come up in most Issues.

Statesman, any chance we'll get some reasonable method of knowing what these powers do? I know you guys have a design philosophy about numbers, but resistance can be easily determined whereas Defense cannot.

I just don't get why you're creating all this confusion where posting a couple of numbers would make things so much more clear.

Instead of the Good, minor, slight defense can we just know that we're getting from say, Dispersion Bubble:

10% defense to all damage tyes; 10% defense to AoE attacks.

Are you really saying that such a description is more complicated than a subjective descriptor?

Why only Smash/Lethal.

Its fairly safe to say that right now these powers block a ranged electrical or radiation attack because they've got Ranged DEF. Yet somehow they do more for S/L. I think bottom line is you're making this way more complicated than it has to be.

Instead of band-aiding a poor system you should spend some time, step back, and address the problem in a better manner.

Just make these powers block vs anything, and if you want to leave the Psi hole opened then don't give them Typed Psi. But there's no good reason you can provide for why they would only give:

Smash/Lethal/Melee/Range

instead of:

Smash/Lethal/Energy/Negative/Fire/Cold/Melee/Range

Again you want AoE and Psi to be hardships, fine leave them off. Leaving off any of the others makes no sense.

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Statesman, any chance we'll get some reasonable method of knowing what these powers do? I know you guys have a design philosophy about numbers, but resistance can be easily determined whereas Defense cannot.

I just don't get why you're creating all this confusion where posting a couple of numbers would make things so much more clear.

Instead of the Good, minor, slight defense can we just know that we're getting from say, Dispersion Bubble:

10% defense to all damage tyes; 10% defense to AoE attacks.

Are you really saying that such a description is more complicated than a subjective descriptor?

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Agreed. It's *not* having numbers that drove me to math, so that I could figure out if something was worth taking.

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Stealth, Grant Invisibility, Invisibility,Combat Flight, Weave, Maneuvers, Vengeance, and Combat Jumping will grant a Defense bonus to Smashing and Lethal Attacks in addition to Melee and Ranged attacks.

I added the same to Controller/Illusion/Group Invisibility.

The result of this is that ALL defense builds will benefit from Pool powers. Previously, Ice Tankers suffered somewhat because the Pool defenses did not stack with their defense powers. This is now rectified.

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In no way is this rectified for PvP. Goodness gracious would you be kind enough to not only nerf players due to PvP but also perhaps fix them for PvP as well? Only VS. Smashing and lethal attacks? I guess that is an advantage to Electric blasters and fire blasters but I suppose that Archery, Energy, Ice, and Assault Rifle are just going to take it up the but on this one.

Why not have shadow fall defend against Energy and psi as well? Why shouldn't steamy mist protect against fire and cold? Why can't there be some more friggin synergy between the sets.

While your at it you can fix damage debuffs in PvP. Those still don't work properly.

This is an improvement. Thank you. And a belated thank you for the new resistance to Defense debuffs.

I hope that Statesman and Geko have considered all the stacking possibilities? Will Steamy Mist and Shadow Fall stack properly? Will the pool powers stack with Wet Ice or Crystal Armor?

I have full faith that we'll all, especially Stargazer and Arcanaville, test these changes out thoroughly now that we've found the problem.

Now about those Accuracy buffs... y'all didn't cut them in half when you cut Def values in half, did you? Please do. Aim+Buildup is strangling the arena. Thanks.

Lame!

That's my first reaction. You could also say that you are stepping away from balancing and actually favorize certain AT:s while ditching others.

It's your game so do what you want but do not expect me as a player and customer to like it. I know a bad descission when I see one and this certainly is one.

Why did you create the Ice Tank if all you wanna do is make the powerset weaker and weaker compared to the rest of the sets?

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Previously, Ice Tankers suffered somewhat because the Pool defenses did not stack with their defense powers. This is now rectified.

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Partially.

The one thing you're forgetting is that for ice tankers, this only fixes half the problem. Sure, the pool powers now offer smash/lethal that can stack with frozen armor, and I am glad for this, but you're leaving out the other ice tanker's armor.

You know, glacial armor.

Now, since you don't want to offer all the 'typed' defenses to everyone on top of the melee/ranged, is it possible to add melee/ranged to glacial armor to also allow this stacking for energy/neg. energy? This would let you keep the pool powers as you like them AND allow for full functionality for ice tankers.

Otherwise the problem only remains half fixed, and ice tankers still can't fully benefit from pool +def powers like every other player in the game can (well, except for the stone tankers, but I'm no expert there).

Edited: forgot a word.

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What about defensive powers such as Steamy Mist and Shadowfall? It's not enough that they have almost nil defense since the last patch, but they also are wastes of endurance once a good tanker joins the group?

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The main point of Steamy Mist and Shadowfall is their Damage Resistance, not the defence. I dont find a tanker being on the team suddenly makes everyone having quite nice resits to Eng/Neg/Psi or Cold/Fire/Eng pointless. I would think in the I5 world the added Damage Resistance that those two powers provide would even be valueable to tankers.

Why not just get rid of 'hard' Melee, range and AoE defenses and make them more subjective? Removing M/R/AoE from the code and apply these types with if/else cases.
Example:
SR Focused Fighting would still be DEF vs. Melee as a description, but for in game mechanics it would be vs. all types IF they are melee variety.

This would probably be a mess to code as Stateman has said changing how defense works would be a mess. But one of the claim for fame CoH had that it was a simpler kind of MMO for the casual player and everyday things seem to be getting more and more complicated.

Well thats one way (and is a lot more simple for the devs to implement than my sugesstion) of making pool powers worth it.

However, It's all gotten a bit confusing now, and I think it's would be a good idea, to post up a tabulated list of all the various powers, and defence they give, with values.

I just can't help having this niggling feeling that one or more powers have been overlooked.

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There aren't many ranged smashing or lethal AoEs.

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Top of MY head: every Council jerk with a chaingun and DE thornsprays [though they may have a Tox component] are Lethal cones. Grenades and Explosions are Smashing/Fire.

Ed. to say: I don't have a good feel for how much work it would be to change the Defense code. . . but I think continuing to kludge it will end up taking more time than you expect, will deliver complex, nonintuitive ("wrong") results, and will probably end up having to be taken out anyway-three different weird cases will come up where the results are bad and unpatchable.

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Stealth, Grant Invisibility, Invisibility,Combat Flight, Weave, Maneuvers, Vengeance, and Combat Jumping will grant a Defense bonus to Smashing and Lethal Attacks in addition to Melee and Ranged attacks.

I added the same to Controller/Illusion/Group Invisibility.

The result of this is that ALL defense builds will benefit from Pool powers. Previously, Ice Tankers suffered somewhat because the Pool defenses did not stack with their defense powers. This is now rectified.

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What about Defender powers that give a boost to defense like Shadow Fall? Or the Illusion powers for Controllers?

Still here, even after all this time!

It's a good thing to add S/L into the mix and all and I like that but....Inv has actually S/L resist and its the one strength of the set what they need defense for is everything else and that's exactly what they aren't getting. If my Inv tank takes hover it seems fair to me to expect that my 2.5 def actually stacks with my TH and Invinc. Espically my TH because I need it most when closing once in there my Invinc will do all I need. Its not much I know but if I was playing a Fire/ tank I could count on my hover's def actually working in all situations not just against S/L.

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Yep. That's what it meant.

As for changing the way defense works...eek. That's not really an option. There's simply too many things that would break...It's just not do-able.

As for why only S/L? Because in these powers, that simply made sense - and because of the prevalence of S/L damage throughout the game.

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You are aware - I trust - that this still leaves a whole lot of DEF stacking issues seriously counter-intuitive.

How many players are likely to understand that if they are fighting off - say - Freakshow Juicers with a Bubbler defending the team that Maneuvers will provide them no benefit against ranged lightning bolts (Dispersion + Insulation vs NRG >> Insulation + Maneuvers vs RANGE), but *will* benefit them against melee attacks (Dispersion + Deflection + Maneuvers will all stack against SMASH/LETHAL)?

Is there even a good reason why Dispersion stacks with Deflection and Insulation vs Damage-typed attacks but not vs positional-typed attacks?

How many Invul tankers will understand that gobs of RANGE defence from power pools will do *nothing* for them in combination with Invincibility and Tough Hide if a baddie takes a potshot at them with a Fire Bolt?

How many SR Scrappers will understand that Empathy's Fortitude will not improve their DEF in the slightest against anything if they are running all of their toggles?

Even with this "fix" - DEF stacking is left a rather complicated and confusing morass that even better help text isn't likely to make any easier for most players to understand. Silly us, we generally figure if we grab a power that gives DEF vs MELEE that any time we are attacked in MELEE it will help... Given the current labrynthine mess that is DEF stacking that is as often as not WRONG.

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Why not have shadow fall defend against Energy and psi as well? Why shouldn't steamy mist protect against fire and cold?

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Good idea.

*rubs forehead* Ugh.... trolling the boards... poked my head in for two inf...

*tosses down 2 inf*

<_<
>_>

Now then... ZOMG PL MEH! GIMME INF! AND A CHEESEBURGER! I have no relevant complaints about defense... other than "Please Sir, I Want Some More..."

Edit: And for god's sake some type of actual mez protection? Even if it's only a fraction as good as a scrapper/tank's protection, that would be one heck of an improvement... Bam Held... Breakfree... held.... breakfree..... held.... out of breakfrees.... faceplant

*

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Why only Smash/Lethal.

Its fairly safe to say that right now these powers block a ranged electrical or radiation attack because they've got Ranged DEF. Yet somehow they do more for S/L. I think bottom line is you're making this way more complicated than it has to be.

Instead of band-aiding a poor system you should spend some time, step back, and address the problem in a better manner.

Just make these powers block vs anything, and if you want to leave the Psi hole opened then don't give them Typed Psi. But there's no good reason you can provide for why they would only give:

Smash/Lethal/Melee/Range

instead of:

Smash/Lethal/Energy/Negative/Fire/Cold/Melee/Range

Again you want AoE and Psi to be hardships, fine leave them off. Leaving off any of the others makes no sense.

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I agree with this post and bolded for emphasis. You have hidden the complexity of the Defense till Cuppajo post and now rather than listen to the many fine solutions you bandaid the issue.

In my opinion, this bandaid, incomplete change will make more people unhappy than happy.

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What about defensive powers such as Steamy Mist and Shadowfall? It's not enough that they have almost nil defense since the last patch, but they also are wastes of endurance once a good tanker joins the group?

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The main point of Steamy Mist and Shadowfall is their Damage Resistance, not the defence. I dont find a tanker being on the team suddenly makes everyone having quite nice resits to Eng/Neg/Psi or Cold/Fire/Eng pointless. I would think in the I5 world the added Damage Resistance that those two powers provide would even be valueable to tankers.

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It's true, a Tanker will get benefit from the resistances of those powers. Perhaps that's why they didn't feel the need to add any extra defense into them.

But some people do slot them for defense, and it's not fair that only characters with positional-type defense get any benefit from that part.

States:

1: thank you for coming up with a quick fix to the problem.

2: However, I believe that the solution needs to be examined a bit. I cannot see the reasoning in giving Steamy Mist, which has Resistance to Fire and no Resistance to S/L, a specific typed defense... to S/L. And not to Fire or Cold.

Please consider adding in typed defense vs all types, except perhaps Psy and maybe Toxic. I cannot see a game specific reason to allow someone to gain defense vs a thrown Ice Blast (cold/lethal), but not vs a very similar thrown Fire Blast (fire).

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So...why just S/L damage?

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My guess would be because it's hte most prevelant type of damage in the game, and when you're dealing with +DEF, it uses whatever you have the best DEF for. So having good Smash/Lethal defense will help you even if the attack coming at you is only a little bit LETHAL and a lot FIRE.